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Thread: Balance of souls between worlds

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Balance of souls between worlds

    Ok, since the start of the manga we have known that there is a balance of souls between worlds. Souls move between the real and spirit world basically.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-500-4/...hapter-46.html
    Destroying hollows quincy style means that souls are removed from the cycle thus an imbalance in created. This means that the number or proportion of souls between worlds has to remain constant for the balance to maintain itself.

    Now, the problem is that there are inconsistencies with this idea or at least a few plot points which have to be addressed. The first one is why in the hell would the quincy continue to destroy hollows at the start of the current war? Is it that they don't care about the balance of souls or is it that they plainly don't believe it is true? Even ishida acknowledges the shinigami did the right thing back in the day. Now, odds are common sense at some point stroke them and they realized destroying hollows their way would indeed result in what the shinigami were claiming. But then, why continue with the killing of hollows? Perhaps they have actually have reasons to believe the balance thing is a load of crap? Anyways, originally the quincy meant to protect people from hollows so it plainly does not make sense for them to kill them.

    Another point is mayuri's correction of the problem recently. Supposedly there were more souls in the human world than in the shinigami world thus he had to kill thousands to prevent the apocalypse. However, wouldn't the souls of the people he killed go back to the human world thanks to the cycle thus making things worst? or did mayuri remove those guys from the cycle altogether too?

    And where does HM fit into all of this? As far as we know it is a barren hellhole which is full of remarkably powerful creatures. We also know that once a human becomes a hollow it goes there. Where exactly is that souls in the whole balance of souls thing? Is it out of the cycle at HM? If it is it would explain why simply not sending a few shinigami there in order to kill hollows and purify them does not solve the problem.

    For that matter, at the start of the arc we saw the reports of hollows disappearing. Are those hollows from the real world (in which case we would be talking about SS allowing hollows to stay in the human world for the sake of the balance) or were they in HM in which case we would be talking about HM being in fact a part of the balance thingy?

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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Well I can answer the Shimigami and Quincy question at least. The quincy started to kill hollows out of revenge and protection, probably without understanding that they were upsetting the balance. So they were having an emotional response to hollows, and the shimigami probably believed that no matter how much it was discussed they would always have that instinct to fight hollows. Even if they promised to stop killing hollows, the Shimigami probably didn't believe they could be trusted or that the risk of having them around is worth the danger.
    And for HM, you have to imagine there is two worlds. One a real world, the other a spiritual. The real world is obviously what we live in, but the spiritual world is both SS and HM. Hollows still count as spiritual souls like shimigami, opposite of living souls in the real world. So they don't upset the balance, BUT they have the risk of corrupting the balance by aimlessly killing humans and not dying away into the normal process like they should.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    The thing is that it does not make sense for the quincy to currently believe that there is no balance of souls as they do in fact know about it(I just remembered this). Also note that I was trying to make sense of the current quincy activities, not the past ones. They are basically intentionally destroying hollows to destroy the world.
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/485/12

    Now that I think about it this is what I originally was thinking about when i made this thread lol. Anyways, why do something which they know would result in the destruction of the human (which they apparently are in some form) and SS? It does not make sense at all, which is why I think there is a possibility that the whole balance thing is essentially bullcrap. The balance might as well be a real thing however it won't necessarily result in the destruction of both places, it could have an entirely different result.

    Also, I doubt HM counts as part of the spirit world. I agree in that SS and HM are both spirit worlds however as they are indeed separate dimensions (as far as we know) that even have to be accessed differently(butterfly and slide door-cant remember the name- and garganta) I doubt they could as the same thing. More so, if they are we are talking about HM and SS spilling at the same time over the human world if the case is that they are the same (which has yet to be mentioned as a risk).

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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Where are the fullbringer, anyways? I thought once they died, they go to society because they are human. I haven't seen Orihime's brother at soul society either, although he supposed to be there.

    I'm not sure if the balance of the two world even works anymore.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Orihime's brother became a hollow.
    Was there anything else?
    He was eliminated, not "buried" IIRC, so not sent to SS.

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    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    I think they were in the real world since I think they couldn't find hollows there,and there were some strange movements in the real world (such as the garganta in front of hiyori; those hollows summoned by a quincy which defeated the 2 new shinigami).

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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Anyways, why do something which they know would result in the destruction of the human (which they apparently are in some form) and SS? It does not make sense at all, which is why I think there is a possibility that the whole balance thing is essentially bullcrap. The balance might as well be a real thing however it won't necessarily result in the destruction of both places, it could have an entirely different result.

    Also, I doubt HM counts as part of the spirit world. I agree in that SS and HM are both spirit worlds however as they are indeed separate dimensions (as far as we know) that even have to be accessed differently(butterfly and slide door-cant remember the name- and garganta) I doubt they could as the same thing. More so, if they are we are talking about HM and SS spilling at the same time over the human world if the case is that they are the same (which has yet to be mentioned as a risk).
    I don't think this balance concept is a lie made up by shinigami to justify killing quincies because Mayuri killed souls in SS to fix the balance and Yamamoto agreed that it was the right thing to do. I think there may be a three way balance between SS-HM, SS-Real world and HM-Real World because they are three different worlds, why else would shinigami try to solve the problem by killing other spiritual beings, they should have killed off a great number of humans. It may still be necessary though.

    It seems to me that these quincies are blinded by their hatred of hollows and shinigami and they don't give a damn about the destruction of the worlds. Perhaps they think they are safe in the dimension they live. Their goal may be to erase shinigami and hollows altogether and establish a new empire ruled by quincies and them only. When they die, humans will still turn into shinigami or hollow though; if we learn how these quincies can live that long, it can give us further insight about their plans.

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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    You got the order wrong, and there's no such thing as 'cycle'. Human dies -> Goes to SS/Hollow -> Dies -> Vanishes. No such thing as resurection. The balance between worlds was affected to the point Hiyori saw reality split, because of the thousands of hollows the VR were destroying. Mayuri killed 28,000 souls from SS to balance that out.

    The VR might not even be affected because they might reside in a different dimension.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Jackk's Avatar
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by Asclepius View Post
    Orihime's brother became a hollow.
    Was there anything else?
    He was eliminated, not "buried" IIRC, so not sent to SS.
    Actually, Orihime's brother cut himself with Ichigo's zanpakutou and purified himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    Human dies -> Goes to SS/Hollow -> Dies -> Vanishes. No such thing as resurection.

    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/46/3


    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/.../chapter/149/3



    http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/a...s14/Odd/96.png
    http://bleachasylum.com/threads/6837...-%28English%29


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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds



    Using a page that says souls are released from Soul Society to the real world without mentioning anything about resurrection, a page in the middle of nowhere from an old as hell translation and a databook with an unrelated picture as proof?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Jackk's Avatar
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    Using a page that says souls are released from Soul Society to the real world without mentioning anything about resurrection
    Using a page from the manga that explains that souls are released from Souls Society and born in the world of the living, and that souls that die in the world of the living are sent back by shinigamis, ergo a cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    , a page in the middle of nowhere from an old as hell translation
    That panel is from the soul society arc; I linked the whole page right below the panel. The implications are clear. 'tis Kenpachi alluding to reincarnation if he and Koma were to die.
    And this is just one piece of evidence to go along with the other two.


    "Old as hell translation" means what here now? Are you trying to say that it is invalid or that it is not the accurate translation of that page?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    and a databook with an unrelated picture as proof?
    Lol, really?

    I linked a page from the Databook Souls that outright states that "once a soul has spent a certain amount of time in Soul Society, it is reborn into the human world."

    I even underlined that important/relevant part--with a pretty red color even--and then I posted links to the whole thing. What more do you want, mister?



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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Spoiler show


    I'm talking about the whole resurrection thing. Souls are released from SS and sent back when they die, but it never says they are actually souls resurected after they die, which brings me to the next point where Kenpachi says "we change a little and fight again". Old scanalation which may be mistranslated just like many of the early chapters. Same goes to the Databook, which is subject to be full of mistakes like the other ones as it isn't written by Kubo, but by a random group of people interpreting the manga.

    However, I have a page here http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v36/c315.5/9.html which actually deals with the whole death after death subject, and it's far more consistent with what we've seen on the manga and actually canon.

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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    Spoiler show


    I'm talking about the whole resurrection thing. Souls are released from SS and sent back when they die, but it never says they are actually souls resurected after they die, which brings me to the next point where Kenpachi says "we change a little and fight again". Old scanalation which may be mistranslated just like many of the early chapters. Same goes to the Databook, which is subject to be full of mistakes like the other ones as it isn't written by Kubo, but by a random group of people interpreting the manga.

    However, I have a page here http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v36/c315.5/9.html which actually deals with the whole death after death subject, and it's far more consistent with what we've seen on the manga and actually canon.
    I've always gotten the impression that souls travel from back and forth from world to world through a cycle. Jackk has provided multiple pages from the manga and from the databook that support that theory. The page you point to is not at all inconsistent with the soul cycle. The discussion being had points to the very strangeness of souls simply vanishing. If the vanishing of souls was to be expected then the Gotei 13 would not feel the need to send a captain to investigate. And as a note, the first page shown by Jackk where Rukia explains the cycle of souls is canon, suggesting otherwise is insulting.

    Also, you continue to use the word resurrection, a term no one else has applied to the cycle. What happens to souls from SS upon death is essentially reincarnation.

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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I've always gotten the impression that souls travel from back and forth from world to world through a cycle. Jackk has provided multiple pages from the manga and from the databook that support that theory. The page you point to is not at all inconsistent with the soul cycle. The discussion being had points to the very strangeness of souls simply vanishing. If the vanishing of souls was to be expected then the Gotei 13 would not feel the need to send a captain to investigate. And as a note, the first page shown by Jackk where Rukia explains the cycle of souls is canon, suggesting otherwise is insulting.

    Also, you continue to use the word resurrection, a term no one else has applied to the cycle. What happens to souls from SS upon death is essentially reincarnation.
    In that case there's no such thing as incarnation. Souls die and turn into spirit particles. Those spirit particles are used by other souls to breathe and shinigami use them to fight, but nothing points out a link between dying as a soul and reincarnation. Rukia says people die and go to SS and SS sends souls to the new world, but nothing about incarnation, which doesn't make sense anyway because those souls stay on SS for centuries. Using a databook as support is the same as using the wikia, as it's writting from pure speculation, and has mistakes.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    The actual cycle of souls in cannon, I don't see why there would even be debate in that. We also know that souls are regulated and sent back and forth by SS, that has been stated multiple times in the manga. Whether what is regulated are actual souls or spirit particles is not relevant to the thread, it does not change that the manga has mentioned the balance and that the quincy have intentionally taken action to destroy it regardless of the potential disasters it could bring about on the human world.

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