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Thread: Balance of souls between worlds

  1. #16
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    basically the way quincys killed hollows destroyed the soul disrupting the cycle do to a deficiency of souls

    when a shinigami would kill a hollow or give a soul burial it basically recycles the soul

    its really not that complicated

  2. #17
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisame Hoshigaki View Post
    basically the way quincys killed hollows destroyed the soul disrupting the cycle do to a deficiency of souls

    when a shinigami would kill a hollow or give a soul burial it basically recycles the soul

    its really not that complicated
    Recycle the soul particles, which are also used by spirits just like living beings use normal matter and quincies as weapons.

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member crimsonlink310's Avatar
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    Recycle the soul particles, which are also used by spirits just like living beings use normal matter and quincies as weapons.
    Thats your definition of recycling? Since when is purifying a soul and sending them to SS or Hell using a zanpaktou count as degeneration into reishi? (spirit particles)

    I think you need to read the old chapters again man. Performing a konso (soul burial) transports the Pluses (souls) or Hollow into SS. (cleansing the spirit at the same time if it was a hollow)

    The souls do not become particles when they get to SS right away. Maybe if they were absorbed or forcefully turned into particles, then thats a different story.

    SS, Hell and HM all have spiritual souls vs the living world souls. So it evens out the ratio.

    With the recent events of hollows being wiped out from existence, the deaths of 28,000 souls followed to keep the balance. Meaning about or over 28,000 hollows have died already in the Reich's attempt to build an army and assault SS.

    Anyways word of god says thats how the soul balance works then thats how it works. Unless he retcons it later on.

  4. #19
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    I was just thinking about the 28000 people mayuri killed. If souls ordinarily move between the living and spirit world, then wouldn't those 28000 souls simply be in the living world still disrupting the balance? Should we assume mayuri didn't just kill those guys but altogether removed them from existence?

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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    There's a balance between spiritual world and human world but Mayuri killed spiritual beings to balance the deaths of other spiritual beings, hollows. Going by what Rukia said about the balance between the worlds, what Mayuri did must have worsened the situation. I think there's a different kind of balance in question here, the balance between HM and SS.

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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Well, that depends on where exactly were those hollows. It also depends on where HM stands on this, specially if the hollows that were killed were indeed there. Otherwise it would imply that souls from SS have to be balanced between SS and and HM-human world. If what matters is the proportion of souls (whether living or dead) then killing all those people would indeed solve the problem though. Still, it leaves the question of whether those souls were annihilated so as to maintain the balance.

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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Considering that HM is the main land of hollows and VR invaded HM some time ago, I think most of these hollows were most likely killed in HM. Rukia didn't mention HM when she was explaining the balance of souls, perhaps HM doesn't have any role in this balance but I would find it a tad weird because HM is a separate dimension full of spiritual beings just like SS and human world.

    If HM is on the human side of the balance, things get even more complicated because Rukia implied that this is a balance between the worlds of living and the dead. Also for hollows it would make eating humans no different from eating other hollows and saving humans would only be an ethical issue for shinigami.

    I'm not sure I understood what you meant by "proportion of souls" but if hollows that were killed in human world disrupted the balance, then Mayuri's goal must have been to decrease the amount of souls in SS and increase the amount of souls in human world, in that sense I think annihilating the souls in SS would be counterproductive because these souls would be needed in human world to further compensate for lack of hollows.

  8. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Jackk's Avatar
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    I'm talking about the whole resurrection thing. Souls are released from SS and sent back when they die, but it never says they are actually souls resurected after they die,
    Rukia also states that those souls are born in the world of the living; they're given life. Tie this with Kenpachi's implication and/or specially tie this with what the Official Character Book Souls states, and I think it's clear that what's being talked about is reincarnation ...and a cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    which brings me to the next point where Kenpachi says "we change a little and fight again". Old scanalation which may be mistranslated just like many of the early chapters.
    Kenpachi, in that scan, says: "Even if we die, we'll just change a little... and then we'll be able to fight again!"

    And you arguing that it's an "old scanalation which may be mistranslated" ...does not invalidate it.

    Show me that the page is mistranslated (heck you haven't even presented an alternative translation), otherwise that page that I presented still stands as evidence on my side.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    Same goes to the Databook, which is subject to be full of mistakes like the other ones as it isn't written by Kubo, but by a random group of people interpreting the manga.
    Eh, what? Where in the world did you get that, mister?

    The Official Character Book SOULs, The Official Character Book 2 MASKED, and the Official Character Book 3 UNMASKED ....are Kubo's work, not that of a 'random group of people interpreting the manga.'

    Not only is Kubo listed as the freaking author, but also specific info regarding characters (for example, info on Espadas, stuff like Omaeda's and Byakuya's father ...as well as the previous Kenpachi among others being revealed by Kubo), places, names of techniques, short stories and back-stories (for example the ones drawn and given to us of Ulquiorra as a hollow, or Harribel being alive in Hueco Mundo (after being healed by Orihime)--which was later noted and shown in the manga, namely in the newest/current arc) etc... this stuff is clearly given to us by Kubo.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    However, I have a page here http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v36/c315.5/9.html which actually deals with the whole death after death subject, and it's far more consistent with what we've seen on the manga and actually canon.
    I've seen that page before; there's also one with Kaien saying something similar to Rukia. But neither of them say that souls cease to exist or are gone forever after the spirit body becomes reishi for soul society, or that the spirit body becoming reishi for soul society is the only thing that happens (as in, reincarnation can't/doesn't happen).

    While on the other hand we have Rukia talking about the balance of the worlds and specially noting that Soul Society souls are sent to and born in the world of the living and sent back (by shinigami) to Soul Society when they die, Kenpachi alluding to reincarnation (if he and Koma were to die), and then even the Official Character Book Souls specifically states that souls are reborn into the human world once they've spent a certain amount of time in Soul Society.

    Based on what the manga/Kubo has shown, I always figured that when a shinigami or soul in Soul Society dies and their spirit body becomes reishi for Soul Society... the reishi will reconstitute itself after some time has passed on earth, OR that the essence of the soul can still be passed on (as in, to reincarnation or be reborn in the world of the living), even if the reishi stays behind.

    Either way though, from what we have, both the manga and the Databook point to reincarnation and a cycle being present in Bleach (as I've already shown in a prior post of mine). There has not been an outright or direct contradiction to the concept of reincarnation and/or the cycle of souls in Bleach or the statements made about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I'm not sure I understood what you meant by "proportion of souls" but if hollows that were killed in human world disrupted the balance, then Mayuri's goal must have been to decrease the amount of souls in SS and increase the amount of souls in human world, in that sense I think annihilating the souls in SS would be counterproductive because these souls would be needed in human world to further compensate for lack of hollows.
    Well the amount of souls in the worlds needs to be evened out--and this is constantly being done--according to what Rukia says.

    And so using numbers, annihilating those 28000 Rukungai souls would be a balance if it was to counter 28000 souls annihilated by the quincies.

    But there would also be a balance if the quincies annihilated 56000 souls and Soul Society killed 28000 Rukongai souls in a way that allows them to reincarnate. This would be a balance achieved via decreasing the amount of souls in SS and increasing the amount of souls in human world.
    Last edited by Jackk; April 26, 2012 at 12:54 AM.


  9. #24
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by Asclepius View Post
    Orihime's brother became a hollow.
    Was there anything else?
    He was eliminated, not "buried" IIRC, so not sent to SS.
    He was killed by Ichigo so that means he was sent to SS or Hell. We haven't seen more about hell yet either, I wonder if the vandereich is going there to recruit baddies too.
    Give the best manga of all time some attention!

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  10. #25
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    The whole balance between worlds thing stopped making sense when Kubo brought a third world into it. Doesn't the existence of Hueco Mundo already disrupt the balance? As I understand it, all hollows are throwing off the balance by not being in Soul Society, that's why shinigami kill hollows. So why did Soul Society allow such a massive hollows population to accumulate?

    I think the reason the Vandenreich are ignoring the effect their destruction of so many hollows is having on the balance is because they fully intend on going to Soul Society and killing a bunch of shinigami to even it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I was just thinking about the 28000 people mayuri killed. If souls ordinarily move between the living and spirit world, then wouldn't those 28000 souls simply be in the living world still disrupting the balance? Should we assume mayuri didn't just kill those guys but altogether removed them from existence?
    I was confused by this as well, Mayuri himself said that only quincy can remove a soul from existence, so killing those people should have just migrated all those souls to the real world. I think the thing that is confusing people is that they are assuming the amount of souls Mayuri migrated is equal to the amount of souls removed from existence by the Vandenreich. The only way it makes sense to me is if Mayuri migrated half as many souls as the Vandenreich removed. Think about it like this:
    If there are 1000000 souls in both worlds, and the Vandenreich removes 56000 from the human world, then Mayuri has to give the human world 28000 of Soul Society's souls in order for both worlds to have the same amount of souls.

  11. #26
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    I was thinking something alone the lines of that too, at least the math makes sense lol. It wouldn't be weird if mayuri could altogether destroy souls, we have entire chapters dedicated to him telling us how he thoroughly and brutally studied quincy a while back.

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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    I'm a bit confused about the reincarnation part. Shinigami can't regulate how many babies will be born, is there any difference between being annihilated and being reincarnated in that regard? The babies will have one soul anyway, be it from someone who died in SS or a new one. How does the cycle work?

  13. #28
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Tonix's Avatar
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    It could be that since Mayuri had them murdered, they turned into hollows, but I'm not sure that makes sense either.

  14. #29
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I'm a bit confused about the reincarnation part. Shinigami can't regulate how many babies will be born, is there any difference between being annihilated and being reincarnated in that regard? The babies will have one soul anyway, be it from someone who died in SS or a new one. How does the cycle work?
    Well, we do know people can be and are born in SS. Perhaps new souls end up somehow balancing each other out naturally thus the only thing that affects the cycle are souls disappearing from it? Even if shinigami don't actually personally regulate how many people are born, they can still know how many babies are born each day and have statistics based on that to do their own bit of tinkering as they have shown they can do. Or maybe the cycle has enough souls so that no matter how many people are born there will still be enough souls moving back and forth. Of course, that would only make what the quincy do all the more brutal.


    About the reasons for the quincy to want to destroy the balance, what if their objective is actually to remove people from it as a whole? Basically they made their weapons to specifically stop hollows from ever being reborn and they simply oppose people moving between the worlds repeatedly? It would explain the nonesense at least.

  15. #30
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member crimsonlink310's Avatar
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    Re: Balance of souls between worlds

    I think we all need more information on the Spirit King. He probably regulates how many souls go to get reincarnated. If you are "killed" as a soul, you most likely turn into Reishi and disappear until you are reincarnated or are just absorbed as energy.

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