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Thread: Niou: Confusion

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Niou: Confusion

    I am confused at what the heck Niou is doing. Is Niou actually doing these techniques or what? Because I thought they made it pretty clear during the Nationals the he is only doing "Illusions" and not really the techniques. It just looks like he is. That's why Niou isn't as good as the original people he imitates. Though at other times it seems like Niou is really doing the techniques. Which doesn't make sense, because then he would technically be as skilled as the person he is imitating.
    Last edited by Kaoz; April 23, 2012 at 02:55 AM. Reason: added prefix

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Umm... He's probably actually doing those techniques. I just think it's impossible to "illusion" syncho, especially with the enemy.

    Well, here's something, though. I think his strength/skill level doesn't change, but he used other people techniques. If I were to put it in game term, he has the same base stat when he's doing the illusion, but his techniques become those that he copy.

    There is certainly certain skill level or "base stat" that people have with their tennis. I mean, if Sanada and Horio started playing a match even with banning of Sanada's techniques, he would still crush Horio. Another good example is the 3rd court, which hardly had any techniques, but their base tennis skill seemed to be high enough to be fighting the old top-mid tier pretty nicely. The best example is probably Irie and Shiraishi, not so fancy tennis, but super strong regardless.

    Yagyuu is probably the same way. He can fight evenly with Niou who almost beat Fuji pre-6th counter. However, Kaidoh had most likely the stronger version of the "snake" AND the faster laser as well.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brandnewkid's Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    I am confused at what the heck Niou is doing. Is Niou actually doing these techniques or what? Because I thought they made it pretty clear during the Nationals the he is only doing "Illusions" and not really the techniques. It just looks like he is. That's why Niou isn't as good as the original people he imitates. Though at other times it seems like Niou is really doing the techniques. Which doesn't make sense, because then he would technically be as skilled as the person he is imitating.
    Oh, best believe, he's doing exactly what you think he's doing. He's copying the player's techniques, style, and mannerisms. They call it "Illusion" because it seems as if through Nioh's trickery the original is actually there. Before, his Illusions weren't perfect and as good as the originals, but after the U-17's training, his mimics are spot-on, as shown through his Tezuka-Illusion Zero-Degree Serve. The player from Shitenhoji with the bandana can do it too via his Imitations.

  4. #4
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    I am confused at what the heck Niou is doing. Is Niou actually doing these techniques or what? Because I thought they made it pretty clear during the Nationals the he is only doing "Illusions" and not really the techniques. It just looks like he is. That's why Niou isn't as good as the original people he imitates. Though at other times it seems like Niou is really doing the techniques.
    Illusion itself is only an optical illusion. Niou keeps all of his stats though and whatever technique he performs, he actually uses.

    Quote Quote:
    He can completely copy other players' techniques. It can be said that all of his skills are at a high level, to the extent that he can use 'Tezuka Zone'.
    Quote Quote:
    He can completely reproduce other players' moves. His optical illusions have the power to replicate those players, to the point that you think they're standing on the court.
    http://fanbook.livejournal.com/56969.html

    While that's pretty clear cut most of the time, the auras are a bit questionable. In PoT, you can see auras, so it should also be possible to make them appear with just the optical illusion, and with Saiki for example we don't actually see the effects and with Hyakuren, we do see effects but he doesn't use it throughout the whole match.

    Given what Chitose said when he opened Saiki, it might be that Niou can use the doors but not over a longer period of time.

    That being said, I still don't think he used a true Synchro, simply because in order to use Synchro both partners have to trust each other. Now you could argue that because his form changes, Oishi and the twins are fooled and trust him enough, but the problem is the other way around.. Niou isn't exactly known as a trusting person. So I guess it's possible that he used a one sided Synchro in both cases, that allows him to influence the other person but he isn't influenced himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    Which doesn't make sense, because then he would technically be as skilled as the person he is imitating.
    Well, look at it this way. Niou can use Tezuka Phantom perfectly during the nationals, but as far as we know he only manages to pull it off for one point, unlike Tezuka who hit it at least 19 times iirc (that plus however often he had to use it when Sanada countered with Rin). If you accept the theory that he can use Hyakuren and Saiki, but only for a limited time, it's again different from what Tezuka can do.

    Basically he can use techniques as long as his own limitations allow him to.

    That being said, he also keeps any advantages his body has over the person he copies. For example, I wouldn't be sure whether Tezuka would have been able to return Kagero Zutsumi like Niou did.




    As a side note, Hitouji's voice imitation is different from Niou's Illusion in that his appearance doesn't seem to change.

  5. #5
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LetalHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    Oh, best believe, he's doing exactly what you think he's doing. He's copying the player's techniques, style, and mannerisms. They call it "Illusion" because it seems as if through Nioh's trickery the original is actually there. Before, his Illusions weren't perfect and as good as the originals, but after the U-17's training, his mimics are spot-on, as shown through his Tezuka-Illusion Zero-Degree Serve. The player from Shitenhoji with the bandana can do it too via his Imitations.
    Agree. As Niou improved his physical abilities, he's now able to perform moves he couldn't in the past like ZSServe. However, when in the national finals used Hyakuren, I think that wasn't the real thing, even right now, if he's able to perfectly imitate Tezuka, he'll never be at the same level.

    Niou's Illusion is bad for his growth. Even if he keeps using it, he'll never be able to reach his true potential. I want to see Niou being Niou, using his style and stop copying others.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Okay, so all of you believe he is really doing the techniques despite this? They made it clear that Niou is doing an illusion to swindle people into thinking he is someone else. But like I said, if Niou is actually doing the techniques, he IS as skilled as the person doing them. Tezuka's techniques are what make him the ability/skill level he is. It's all a part of it. If Niou can do those techniques, his ability level raises accordingly. To say Niou isn't any better stat-wise is just ignorant.

    Also, everybody knows Niou is really this guy:

  7. #7
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    To say Niou isn't any better stat-wise is just ignorant.
    How so? Tezuka doesn't need high speed to perform TZone for example, so his and Niou's stats might differ there despite both being able to use it.

  8. #8
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    Okay, so all of you believe he is really doing the techniques despite this? They made it clear that Niou is doing an illusion to swindle people into thinking he is someone else. But like I said, if Niou is actually doing the techniques, he IS as skilled as the person doing them. Tezuka's techniques are what make him the ability/skill level he is. It's all a part of it. If Niou can do those techniques, his ability level raises accordingly. To say Niou isn't any better stat-wise is just ignorant.

    Also, everybody knows Niou is really this guy:
    Using the same techniques isn't necessary better skill. And you haven't response to any of my old examples of why base stat might actually exist. I don't see you have any example that Niou stat-wise is better when he done his Illusion. Show me some, please.

    Also, here's another one. Is Momoshiro above Oni right now because they both have BJK and Momoshiro also have other techniques?
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I don't see you have any example that Niou stat-wise is better when he done his Illusion. Show me some, please.
    Precisely.

    The Niou issue we've gone over tons of times and even with this thread I feel Konomi will soon troll us so we never get to the bottom of it.

    I think Niou really did use Synchro. Since the Mutsu Twins could only synchronize coz they were twins, if he interrupted it and read their thoughts, he must have genetically become them or something coz I kinda felt it was implied that instead of synchronizing due to being best friends, they synchronized coz they were twins.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Umm... He's probably actually doing those techniques. I just think it's impossible to "illusion" syncho, especially with the enemy.

    Well, here's something, though. I think his strength/skill level doesn't change, but he used other people techniques. If I were to put it in game term, he has the same base stat when he's doing the illusion, but his techniques become those that he copy.

    There is certainly certain skill level or "base stat" that people have with their tennis. I mean, if Sanada and Horio started playing a match even with banning of Sanada's techniques, he would still crush Horio. Another good example is the 3rd court, which hardly had any techniques, but their base tennis skill seemed to be high enough to be fighting the old top-mid tier pretty nicely. The best example is probably Irie and Shiraishi, not so fancy tennis, but super strong regardless.

    Yagyuu is probably the same way. He can fight evenly with Niou who almost beat Fuji pre-6th counter. However, Kaidoh had most likely the stronger version of the "snake" AND the faster laser as well.
    Was gonna actually post something extremely similar to this so Im glad I read the whole thing lol.
    I also feel Yagyuu is incredibly strong in Singles too. I honestly think Yagyuu > Kaidoh. As base wise he is possible above Niou.

    Another thing which we were unlucky with is that Konomi suddenly stopped giving us the Stats he was giving us at the start of every full match.
    the anime added in Oni and Momoshiro I think, and we got them right through the team shuffles excluding The Kyushu Doubles reunion of Washio/Suzuki VS Tachibana/Chitose.
    I imagined we would get a chapter cover with Niou, Ochi, Mouri and Atobe's stats but oh well.

  10. #10
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Using the same techniques isn't necessary better skill.
    That isn't what I meant. Obviously Momo isn't as good as Oni just because he can do BJK. The degree in which Oni hits is much more powerful, etc. However, I do not think Niou and Tezuka are much different, physically. I also do not think Niou would have done much against Fuji, had he not started using Tezuka's techniques. If Niou was unsuccessful as Shiraishi, and VERY successful as Tezuka, does that not in itself indicate Niou's ability level got "better?" The fact of the matter is, despite whatever the technique, Niou was getting points against Fuji. A feat that he could not attain as Shiraishi. Niou's ability level had to be raised.

    Quote Quote:
    Also, here's another one. Is Momoshiro above Oni right now because they both have BJK
    No. As I mentioned Oni is far greater than Momo. However, that doesn't mean BJK didn't raise Momo's ability level. Just because Momo isn't Oni's level, doesn't mean BJK Momo is the same as No-BJK Momo.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brandnewkid's Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Nioh, definitely an amazing player. His skills as a player alone are top-notch, and his Illusions are nigh-invincible. Without a doubt, they are actually happening right before your very eyes. Never question it. Puri.

    Lets not forget about his acting skills, like faking an injury to get Yagyuu shaken up; we may see him go the Irie-route in the future.

  12. #12
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    That isn't what I meant. Obviously Momo isn't as good as Oni just because he can do BJK. The degree in which Oni hits is much more powerful, etc.
    Well, there's actually nothing that shows that Momoshiro's BJK is actually weaker than Oni's. Also, the opponents that BJK were used are 1st stringer., so their skill is a possible cushion for BJK power. They are at least stronger than Momoshiro pre-mountain (and heck, even after mountain, until the evolution mid match).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    However, I do not think Niou and Tezuka are much different, physically. I also do not think Niou would have done much against Fuji, had he not started using Tezuka's techniques. If Niou was unsuccessful as Shiraishi, and VERY successful as Tezuka, does that not in itself indicate Niou's ability level got "better?"
    The fact of the matter is, despite whatever the technique, Niou was getting points against Fuji. A feat that he could not attain as Shiraishi. Niou's ability level had to be raised.
    No, Fuji lose in the beginning when Niou transfer to Tezuka. But then he evolve mid-match and used closed eyes. And since he used closed eyes, he dominate Niou-Tezuka, winning every game since he used it. So Niou-Tezuka get dominated at that point in the game. That's why he change to Shiraishi. But if Niou started losing even now to closed eyes, it still won't show that Niou-Shiraishi was any less sucessful to Niou-Tezuka, because Niou-Tezuka was losing to that upgraded closed eyes Fuji and thus he had to change to another player, since Tezuka doesn't work.

    Not only that, but once Niou change to Shiraishi, then Fuji started to evolve again and started using Hoshi Hanabi. That already make this match unable to judge Niou's gauge. Because his enemy IS Fuji, the epitome of evolving mid-match and unstable power level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    No. As I mentioned Oni is far greater than Momo. However, that doesn't mean BJK didn't raise Momo's ability level. Just because Momo isn't Oni's level, doesn't mean BJK Momo is the same as No-BJK Momo.
    Alright, I misunderstand you. Sorry about that.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    he must have genetically become them
    What part of optical illusion implies this in any way?

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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    What part of optical illusion implies this in any way?
    Perhaps genetically was too far, but he definetely pulled off the real synchro since the way the story emphasizes that they can synchro so well BECAUSE they're twins, I imagined that nothing could interrupt that kind of Synchro unless its the real deal.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: Niou: Confusion

    To be honest I think Niou is an absurd character. I wish Konomi made him a bit more realistic. Not that PoT was ever realistic, but turning into other people kinda pushes the Shounen sports boundaries.

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