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Thread: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

  1. #61
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Quote:
    My point is that using Itachi/Orochimaru to say that he can do well vs high level opponents is ridiculous
    Incorrect. As I have stated, Kakashi did better against Itachi than Orochimaru did. He killed Zabuza, maimed Deidara, Held of Hidan AND Kakuzu simultaneously, tricked Itachi and actually did well against God Realm, well enough for God Realm to state that he should opt to kill him as he might prove to be a problem.

    Quote Quote:
    Kakashi is strong, smart, full of ressources, I don't doubt that. But we've never seen him doing so well against high level opponents
    See above.

    Quote Quote:
    Itachi pwned him while not being serious at all
    Itachi wtf pwns everyone. Point?

  2. #62
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by vanyar View Post
    Difference is, if my knowledge is correct the first databook lists Kakashi's stats as 33 and that databook covers up to the Chunin exam and some of the invasion of Konoha. So my logic is when he had a stand off with Oro his stats where 33 yet when he fought Itachi his stats are 34.5.
    According to Databooks, Hidan has 5 in Ninjutsu, Kiba is as fast as Sasuke and Tenten is as smart as Sasuke, and smarten than Neji, and Ebisu has the same valor in Ninjutsu of Naruto.
    So don't take the Databook for granted

    Quote Quote:
    His Taijutsu, intelligence and speed.
    We saw that huge jump in power when he needed Naruto to win against a clone who had 30% of Itachi's power and chakra.
    Or when Kakuzu mopped the floor with him, Ino and Chouji. Or when he couldn't even touch Deva and/or Ashura alone.
    I like very much Kakashi as a character, but he isn't on the level of the Sannin. Or on the level of Akatsuki and other Kages yet. He has an ultra-haxed ability though, that is the only thing worth mentioning against any kage level. Shame he can't spam it

  3. #63
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Quote:
    According to Databooks, Hidan has 5 in Ninjutsu, Kiba is as fast as Sasuke and Tenten is as smart as Sasuke, and smarten than Neji, and Ebisu has the same valor in Ninjutsu of Naruto. So don't take the Databook for granted
    You have a valid argument when comparing to other people.I'm not comparing him to other people though. I'm showing Kakashi's stats increased showing that he, himself has improved.

    Quote Quote:
    We saw that huge jump in power when he needed Naruto to win against a clone who had 30% of Itachi's power and chakra.
    He managed to trick Itachi and he formulated a plan that made good use of himself and Naruto.

    Quote Quote:
    Or when Kakuzu mopped the floor with him, Ino and Chouji. Or when he couldn't even touch Deva and/or Ashura alone.
    Where did Kakuzu mop the floor with him? Nagato has shown to be one of the greatest ninja in the series, he destroyed Konoha, killed Hanzo and Jiraiya. Pain did actually recognise Kakashi's ability though.

    Quote Quote:
    I like very much Kakashi as a character, but he isn't on the level of the Sannin
    Ok, your forgot to say in your opinion. That statement is baseless. He has shown to be better in combat than Tsunade and performed better against Itachi than Orochimaru. Also if we are taking the Sannin to be Kage/S-rank level logically Kakashi is on that level.

    Quote Quote:
    Or on the level of Akatsuki and other Kages yet.
    Akatsuki? have you not read my posts? Kakashi has clashed with over half of Akatsuki and he has chosen to be a kage. Again another subjective baseless statement.

  4. #64
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by vanyar View Post
    You have a valid argument when comparing to other people.I'm not comparing him to other people though. I'm showing Kakashi's stats increased showing that he, himself has improved.
    He improved all right. You don't see the Sannins improve because they are almost on top to begin with.
    Can you improve a 5 in the stats? I doubt it

    Quote Quote:
    He managed to trick Itachi and he formulated a plan that made good use of himself and Naruto.
    He still lacked the means to end a battle against someone who had 30% of Itachi's powers, meaning that that copy was more than 3 times weaker than a normal Itachi. Tricking the enemy is good, never said Kakashi wasn't smart, yet if you trick the enemy and then you can't end him is all good for nothing

    Quote Quote:
    Where did Kakuzu mop the floor with him? Nagato has shown to be one of the greatest ninja in the series, he destroyed Konoha, killed Hanzo and Jiraiya. Pain did actually recognise Kakashi's ability though.
    Here I see Kakashi about to be killed, also Kakuzu losing 2 hearts was all part of Shika's strategy. Finished that, they were at Kakuzu's mercy.
    Also Pein killed Hanzo using 6 bodies, and Jiraiya dispatched 3 bodies. Kakashi wasn't able, alone, even to touch one, and with help to wound the other while dying.
    And even then, Chouza and Chouji did all the damage. And Pein recognized his ability because, well, Kakashi is good. Just not that good, again Kamui not-withstanding. Konohamaru too would be haxed with Kamui since it doesn't need skill, you simply point a target at close range and boom! headshot

    Quote Quote:
    Ok, your forgot to say in your opinion. That statement is baseless. He has shown to be better in combat than Tsunade and performed better against Itachi than Orochimaru. Also if we are taking the Sannin to be Kage/S-rank level logically Kakashi is on that level.
    Yeah, no.
    If getting comatose and being unable to dispatch a weak clone of Itachi is your idea of being better then you have a really distorted mindset lol.
    They both got beaten badly by the original, so I don't think you can say that one fared better than the other.
    Also, Oro's goal wasn't to kill Itachi, but to possess his body, which is very different.
    Take here for example, if Oro wanted Sasuke dead Sasuke would've been dead, yet he wanted to possess him so he didn't kill him. Or what, do you believe Oro wouldn't be able to regenerate a missing hand?
    Here he effortlessy regenerated his whole body. Oro simply knew he was no match, and fled.

    Quote Quote:
    Akatsuki? have you not read my posts? Kakashi has clashed with over half of Akatsuki and he has chosen to be a kage. Again another subjective baseless statement.
    He clashed, and lost every time.
    And was chosen because there weren't any other viable options since Naruto was too young and inexperienced, like Jiraiya said. Is it not a baseless statement, but a statement backed up with manga facts

  5. #65
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by vanyar View Post
    Difference is, if my knowledge is correct the first databook lists Kakashi's stats as 33 and that databook covers up to the Chunin exam and some of the invasion of Konoha. So my logic is when he had a stand off with Oro his stats where 33 yet when he fought Itachi his stats are 34.5.
    Stop using databook stats, it's pretty much a bad argument to lean back on because stats are ambiguous and show nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    My point is that using Itachi/Orochimaru to say that he can do well vs high level opponents is ridiculous : Kakashi is strong, smart, full of ressources, I don't doubt that. But we've never seen him doing so well against high level opponents : Itachi pwned him while not being serious at all, Pein raped him, nearly got killed by Kakuzu and was never able to have the edge over him...
    Itachi has owned pretty much everyone in the manga except for Sasuke, but he wasn't even going all out. Kakashi did better against Itachi than Orochimaru did.

    Pain had trouble against him. Kakashi only died because he was saving Chouji. Pain failed to kill him twice.

    Kakuzu had five lives. Kakashi would have killed Kakuzu on the first go. Plus, it's pretty hard to fight against someone who has more than two elements, is fast, and can switch from long range to short range any time.



    Kakashi should get more credit. He can certainly give Minato and Jiraiya a challenge.

  6. #66
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke View Post
    MS, chakra control, and stamina.
    MS=Kamui.

    The other 2? Where have you noticed the improvement?


    @M3J


    He can kill JMan by looking at him. Most defenetly he can give him a chalange lol.
    Last edited by xXan; May 04, 2012 at 01:14 AM.

  7. #67
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post



    Itachi has owned pretty much everyone in the manga except for Sasuke, but he wasn't even going all out. Kakashi did better against Itachi than Orochimaru did.

    Pain had trouble against him. Kakashi only died because he was saving Chouji. Pain failed to kill him twice.

    Kakuzu had five lives. Kakashi would have killed Kakuzu on the first go. Plus, it's pretty hard to fight against someone who has more than two elements, is fast, and can switch from long range to short range any time.



    Kakashi should get more credit. He can certainly give Minato and Jiraiya a challenge.

    Itachi was NEVER serious against Kakashi, so you can't say " he did better ". He did nothing, if that fight shows anything, is that Itachi is on a whole league different than Kakashi's. So you can't say " Okay, Kakashi did better than Orochimaru vs Itachi, therefore he can handle ubers pretty well ".

    Pain didn't have any trouble at all, you do realize that he was " raped ". Asura came, Kakashi used the Raiton Kagebunshin, then reinforcements came. And even with them, he couldn't push Nagato to fully use Tendô's powers.

    Against Kakuzu, I'm sorry but sure he have 5 elements which is sweet, but it is nothing on the level of monsters like Itachi/Nagato/Tobi... And Kakuzu was gonna kill him, because even if he used Kamui back then, he'd have just been able to warp his Katon-Futon combination attack, but he was lucky Yamato/Naruto used their combination instead.

    I'm not saying Kakashi is weak, he isn't. But against those beasts, he just never gave them that much of trouble. His lack of chakra/stamina is his biggest weakness, and most of ubers do have insane levels of chakra and stamina.

  8. #68
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    @Zehahaha

    Itachi was serious enough. Kakashi was obiously able to do better then the guy that got 2 times 1 shoot. You know why? Because Kakashi actualy used his brain instead of trying to overpower Itachi. First time Oro tryied to overpower Itachi with his genjutsu world and then with his Hydra. We both know how that whent down.

    Kakashi on the other hand used tactics. Itachi made compliments to Kakashi. Kakashi also has a sharingan to protect him from genjutsu to some degree.
    The second time he was even sure to avoid genjutsu and formulated a plan to take Itachi down with a clone.

    Pein had enough trouble with Kakashi to state this:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/423/7

    He has some of the best tactics/deductive skill in the manga:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/567/12

    That is why he is better then Orochimaru in my book. He obviously can't take by himself some of the OP people in this manga but same goes for Orochimaru.
    Last edited by xXan; May 04, 2012 at 07:40 AM.

  9. #69
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    Where did I even said Kakashi isn't smart ? You say he have tactics and stuff, never said that he doesn't, but you know very well that tactics aren't everything. If it was the case, Shikamaru would be the new god of Shinobi and Kakashi his prophet.

    If you don't have the strenght to back up your tactics, then you're doomed. Kakashi is a brilliant Shinobi, but as I said, he lacks Chakra and Stamina, and that's why, he'll always lose against ubers (Itachi, Nagato/Pain...). I don't know about Kakuzu because of Kamui, he could warp him completely, but I doubt he'd pull such a thing against those new monsters we have here.

    Pain didn't have ANY trouble. Nagato complimented him by saying he'd be troublesome in the long term, but he was never able to completely threaten Asura/Tendo duo at all. And he still needed the help of the Akimichi's to be somehow troublesome.

  10. #70
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    @Zehahaha

    Err i was addresing:

    Quote Quote:
    Itachi was NEVER serious against Kakashi, so you can't say " he did better"
    Read it again and you will understand why i added the tactics part. Why has Kakashi done better? Yeah, tactics.


    Also obviously he could not take them down by himself but Pein's acknowledged he was very dangerous. To state "Pain didn't have ANY trouble" is absurd. If that would be true Deva would never had stated that. Kakashi was the only man in Konoha that got anything like that from Nagato (excluding Naruto obviously).
    Last edited by xXan; May 04, 2012 at 08:57 AM.

  11. #71
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    LOL can anyone honestly picture Kakashi defeating his sensei? Kakashi & Gai don't have what it takes to defeat guys like Minato & Jiraiya. I can assure that if Kishi designed this fight it would be an easy one with Minato & Jiraiya easily coming out of top. It's really common sense

  12. #72
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member syx's Avatar
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    LOL can anyone honestly picture Kakashi defeating his sensei? Kakashi & Gai don't have what it takes to defeat guys like Minato & Jiraiya. I can assure that if Kishi designed this fight it would be an easy one with Minato & Jiraiya easily coming out of top. It's really common sense
    How are Minato & a nerfed Jiraiya winning this in an easy way against Kakashi & Gai, who have knowledge about Minatos trump card? I can totally see Kakashi taking out Minato or Jiraiya with a well timed combination of his Raiton Kage Bunshin and Chidori/Kamui while Gai with his insane speed acts as a back up.

    Kakashis knowledge about Minato gives his team the advantage of not being blitzed by Hiraishin+Rasengan, not getting tagged by Minato and the information that Minato possibly tagged Jiraiya and will Hirashin to him, whenever he is in danger. That's pretty much enough information to come up with a plan to either take out Minato or Jiraiya or badly injure one of them.
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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    [QUOTE=xXan;2879494]MS=Kamui.

    The other 2? Where have you noticed the improvement?


    The first time Kakashi use MS, it took almost to chapters to activate.

    His aim was not accurate with MS. That's control.

    Kakashi could barely use sharingan without being exhausted, or end up in the hospital. Now he can use it all day with little side effects... That's stamina.

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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    How are Minato & a nerfed Jiraiya winning this in an easy way against Kakashi & Gai, who have knowledge about Minatos trump card? I can totally see Kakashi taking out Minato or Jiraiya with a well timed combination of his Raiton Kage Bunshin and Chidori/Kamui while Gai with his insane speed acts as a back up.

    Kakashis knowledge about Minato gives his team the advantage of not being blitzed by Hiraishin+Rasengan, not getting tagged by Minato and the information that Minato possibly tagged Jiraiya and will Hirashin to him, whenever he is in danger. That's pretty much enough information to come up with a plan to either take out Minato or Jiraiya or badly injure one of them.
    Tobi had knowledge, Raikage had Knowledge, Killerbee had knowledge and many more. Sorry but to have knowledge doesn't mean to win. Displaying feets is also kinda pointness because we all can easily display a genin level shinobi jutsu defeating a kage level shinobi but that is nonsense. I could easly say http://www.mangareader.net/93-386-2/...apter-381.html one-shots both Kakashi and Gai. Pein survived cause of his strong resistance, strong body, and not being able to feel pain but can Kakashi and Gai escape the instantaneously trapping acidic jutsu that would fry their bodies? I don't like displaying feet unless they are somewhat relevant. This is why I base a characters chances of winning on how Kishi display said character. People worship Minato like a God in Narutouniverse and Kishi reinforces that he is that great time and time again http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/571/3 . Gai and Kakashi are simply outclassed, outmatched out....

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    Re: Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Tobi had knowledge, Raikage had Knowledge, Killerbee had knowledge and many more. Sorry but to have knowledge doesn't mean to win.
    Thing is, that Kakashi easily outclasses both Raikage and Killerbee in tactics/coming up with a plan/plan execution/tricking your opponent. Besides there is no indication that Minato won against Raikage or Bee.

    Tobi on the other hand didn't know that Minato can teleport to a flying kunai. Minato revealing that this is Hirashin Level 2 (like announcing a new Jutsu) and Tobis suprise is prove enough, that he didn't know everything about Hirashin.

    Right now, Konoha also knows how to perform Hiraishin. As a Konoha elite Shinobi and Minatos student, I believe that Kakashi knows everything about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Displaying feets is also kinda pointness because we all can easily display a genin level shinobi jutsu defeating a kage level shinobi but that is nonsense. I could easly say http://www.mangareader.net/93-386-2/...apter-381.html one-shots both Kakashi and Gai.
    We don't know how Pain managed to stab Jiraiya. This was off-panel if I remember correctly. But what we know is that Jiraiya was badly injured (he lost an arm) and was fighting someone full of suprises. Of course Kakashi can be killed with a kunai or stabbed by a rod, why not? But in addition to that kunai/rod you also need the speed, suprise effect and you have to make sure that you don't hit a clone.
    Furthermore I want to point out that a low level Jutsus can in fact defeat a Kage Level Shinobi. You have to take into account that the effect of a certain Jutsu is determined by how you use it. We have already seen a Kage Level Shinobi being defeated by a low level Jutsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Pein survived cause of his strong resistance, strong body, and not being able to feel pain but can Kakashi and Gai escape the instantaneously trapping acidic jutsu that would fry their bodies?
    Can you please show me that technique? I can't remember this one.
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