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Incorrect. As I have stated, Kakashi did better against Itachi than Orochimaru did. He killed Zabuza, maimed Deidara, Held of Hidan AND Kakuzu simultaneously, tricked Itachi and actually did well against God Realm, well enough for God Realm to state that he should opt to kill him as he might prove to be a problem.Quote:
Itachi wtf pwns everyone. Point?Quote:
So don't take the Databook for granted
We saw that huge jump in power when he needed Naruto to win against a clone who had 30% of Itachi's power and chakra.Quote:
Or when Kakuzu mopped the floor with him, Ino and Chouji. Or when he couldn't even touch Deva and/or Ashura alone.
I like very much Kakashi as a character, but he isn't on the level of the Sannin. Or on the level of Akatsuki and other Kages yet. He has an ultra-haxed ability though, that is the only thing worth mentioning against any kage level. Shame he can't spam it
You have a valid argument when comparing to other people.I'm not comparing him to other people though. I'm showing Kakashi's stats increased showing that he, himself has improved.Quote:
He managed to trick Itachi and he formulated a plan that made good use of himself and Naruto.Quote:
Where did Kakuzu mop the floor with him? Nagato has shown to be one of the greatest ninja in the series, he destroyed Konoha, killed Hanzo and Jiraiya. Pain did actually recognise Kakashi's ability though.Quote:
Ok, your forgot to say in your opinion. That statement is baseless. He has shown to be better in combat than Tsunade and performed better against Itachi than Orochimaru. Also if we are taking the Sannin to be Kage/S-rank level logically Kakashi is on that level.Quote:
Akatsuki? have you not read my posts? Kakashi has clashed with over half of Akatsuki and he has chosen to be a kage. Again another subjective baseless statement.Quote:
Can you improve a 5 in the stats? I doubt it
He still lacked the means to end a battle against someone who had 30% of Itachi's powers, meaning that that copy was more than 3 times weaker than a normal Itachi. Tricking the enemy is good, never said Kakashi wasn't smart, yet if you trick the enemy and then you can't end him is all good for nothingQuote:
Here I see Kakashi about to be killed, also Kakuzu losing 2 hearts was all part of Shika's strategy. Finished that, they were at Kakuzu's mercy.Quote:
Also Pein killed Hanzo using 6 bodies, and Jiraiya dispatched 3 bodies. Kakashi wasn't able, alone, even to touch one, and with help to wound the other while dying.
And even then, Chouza and Chouji did all the damage. And Pein recognized his ability because, well, Kakashi is good. Just not that good, again Kamui not-withstanding. Konohamaru too would be haxed with Kamui since it doesn't need skill, you simply point a target at close range and boom! headshot
If getting comatose and being unable to dispatch a weak clone of Itachi is your idea of being better then you have a really distorted mindset lol.
They both got beaten badly by the original, so I don't think you can say that one fared better than the other.
Also, Oro's goal wasn't to kill Itachi, but to possess his body, which is very different.
Take here for example, if Oro wanted Sasuke dead Sasuke would've been dead, yet he wanted to possess him so he didn't kill him. Or what, do you believe Oro wouldn't be able to regenerate a missing hand?
Here he effortlessy regenerated his whole body. Oro simply knew he was no match, and fled.
He clashed, and lost every time.Quote:
And was chosen because there weren't any other viable options since Naruto was too young and inexperienced, like Jiraiya said. Is it not a baseless statement, but a statement backed up with manga facts
Pain had trouble against him. Kakashi only died because he was saving Chouji. Pain failed to kill him twice.
Kakuzu had five lives. Kakashi would have killed Kakuzu on the first go. Plus, it's pretty hard to fight against someone who has more than two elements, is fast, and can switch from long range to short range any time.
Kakashi should get more credit. He can certainly give Minato and Jiraiya a challenge.
Itachi was NEVER serious against Kakashi, so you can't say " he did better ". He did nothing, if that fight shows anything, is that Itachi is on a whole league different than Kakashi's. So you can't say " Okay, Kakashi did better than Orochimaru vs Itachi, therefore he can handle ubers pretty well ".
Pain didn't have any trouble at all, you do realize that he was " raped ". Asura came, Kakashi used the Raiton Kagebunshin, then reinforcements came. And even with them, he couldn't push Nagato to fully use Tendô's powers.
Against Kakuzu, I'm sorry but sure he have 5 elements which is sweet, but it is nothing on the level of monsters like Itachi/Nagato/Tobi... And Kakuzu was gonna kill him, because even if he used Kamui back then, he'd have just been able to warp his Katon-Futon combination attack, but he was lucky Yamato/Naruto used their combination instead.
I'm not saying Kakashi is weak, he isn't. But against those beasts, he just never gave them that much of trouble. His lack of chakra/stamina is his biggest weakness, and most of ubers do have insane levels of chakra and stamina.
Itachi was serious enough. Kakashi was obiously able to do better then the guy that got 2 times 1 shoot. You know why? Because Kakashi actualy used his brain instead of trying to overpower Itachi. First time Oro tryied to overpower Itachi with his genjutsu world and then with his Hydra. We both know how that whent down.
Kakashi on the other hand used tactics. Itachi made compliments to Kakashi. Kakashi also has a sharingan to protect him from genjutsu to some degree.
The second time he was even sure to avoid genjutsu and formulated a plan to take Itachi down with a clone.
Pein had enough trouble with Kakashi to state this:
He has some of the best tactics/deductive skill in the manga:
That is why he is better then Orochimaru in my book. He obviously can't take by himself some of the OP people in this manga but same goes for Orochimaru.
Last edited by xXan; May 04, 2012 at 07:40 AM.
Where did I even said Kakashi isn't smart ? You say he have tactics and stuff, never said that he doesn't, but you know very well that tactics aren't everything. If it was the case, Shikamaru would be the new god of Shinobi and Kakashi his prophet.
If you don't have the strenght to back up your tactics, then you're doomed. Kakashi is a brilliant Shinobi, but as I said, he lacks Chakra and Stamina, and that's why, he'll always lose against ubers (Itachi, Nagato/Pain...). I don't know about Kakuzu because of Kamui, he could warp him completely, but I doubt he'd pull such a thing against those new monsters we have here.
Pain didn't have ANY trouble. Nagato complimented him by saying he'd be troublesome in the long term, but he was never able to completely threaten Asura/Tendo duo at all. And he still needed the help of the Akimichi's to be somehow troublesome.
Err i was addresing:
Read it again and you will understand why i added the tactics part. Why has Kakashi done better? Yeah, tactics.Quote:
Also obviously he could not take them down by himself but Pein's acknowledged he was very dangerous. To state "Pain didn't have ANY trouble" is absurd. If that would be true Deva would never had stated that. Kakashi was the only man in Konoha that got anything like that from Nagato (excluding Naruto obviously).
Last edited by xXan; May 04, 2012 at 08:57 AM.
LOL can anyone honestly picture Kakashi defeating his sensei? Kakashi & Gai don't have what it takes to defeat guys like Minato & Jiraiya. I can assure that if Kishi designed this fight it would be an easy one with Minato & Jiraiya easily coming out of top. It's really common sense
Kakashis knowledge about Minato gives his team the advantage of not being blitzed by Hiraishin+Rasengan, not getting tagged by Minato and the information that Minato possibly tagged Jiraiya and will Hirashin to him, whenever he is in danger. That's pretty much enough information to come up with a plan to either take out Minato or Jiraiya or badly injure one of them.
The other 2? Where have you noticed the improvement?
The first time Kakashi use MS, it took almost to chapters to activate.
His aim was not accurate with MS. That's control.
Kakashi could barely use sharingan without being exhausted, or end up in the hospital. Now he can use it all day with little side effects... That's stamina.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-386-2/...apter-381.html one-shots both Kakashi and Gai. Pein survived cause of his strong resistance, strong body, and not being able to feel pain but can Kakashi and Gai escape the instantaneously trapping acidic jutsu that would fry their bodies? I don't like displaying feet unless they are somewhat relevant. This is why I base a characters chances of winning on how Kishi display said character. People worship Minato like a God in Narutouniverse and Kishi reinforces that he is that great time and time again http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/571/3 . Gai and Kakashi are simply outclassed, outmatched out....
Tobi on the other hand didn't know that Minato can teleport to a flying kunai. Minato revealing that this is Hirashin Level 2 (like announcing a new Jutsu) and Tobis suprise is prove enough, that he didn't know everything about Hirashin.
Right now, Konoha also knows how to perform Hiraishin. As a Konoha elite Shinobi and Minatos student, I believe that Kakashi knows everything about it.
Furthermore I want to point out that a low level Jutsus can in fact defeat a Kage Level Shinobi. You have to take into account that the effect of a certain Jutsu is determined by how you use it. We have already seen a Kage Level Shinobi being defeated by a low level Jutsu.