Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

[syx]

Yondaime > Kakashi in intelligence, as proven when the creator of the jutsu couldn't come up with its weakness when Yondaime did with a single glance.

You are not comparing the intelligence between a 13 year old, newly promoted Jounin and a Kage Level Shinobi?

Sasuke, not Kakashi.
We know that Sasuke Sharingan > Itachi Sharingan ( both Tobi and Oro commented on it ) which in turn is >>>>> Kakashi's by manga feats.

Yes, it was commented by Tobi and Orochimaru that Sasukes Sharingan has more potential than Itachis, but Sasuke never showed that his eyes surpassed Itachis. We saw the strongest Sasuke (with his own eyes) against Danzou, which clearly isn't Itachis level.


I think Minato and Jiraiya takes this, but Minato isn't going to solo this, especially not against Kakashi.
First off, I don't think that a space/time Jutsu gives you "immunity" against instant techniques like Amaterasu or Kamui. For me, a space/time Jutsu is probably the best counter nothing more nothing less. I see it like Bees case, who also has the best counter against Genjutsu, but that doesn't grant him immunity.
Minato can still be tricked/trapped and Kakashi is one of the trickiest ninjas out there. Kakashis Clones can be very nerve-racking, Itachi and Pain would agree with this.

In the end Minato will be the last man standing, but totally exhausted. Jiraiya could be the key for the win, because Kakashi and Gai have to use a good amount of chakra to take him down while Minato is around.

[xXan]

@Prince Sasuke


Actualy i admited i was wrong a few time when people presented arguments of it but that is the problem here, you provided none. I at first state why i think Kakashi is on Tobi's level and then you stated "Your joking right" and something about Kyuubi control and then i elaborated about why i think that and then you replyed with "you don't whant to admit you are wrong". The question is based on what? X is better because i say so? You are not going to change anybody's mind with that and you defenetly can't state i don't whant to admit i am wrong when that is the best you can give me.

Now if i would have stated Kakashi is above Tobi.. Yeah sure but on his level? Now if we where arguing who is the better sharingan "professor" then yeah sure that would be Tobi but that does not translate that well in a fight situation that we where discussing here.

So please elaborate on your points so i can counter your arguments as how it stands now i have nothing to counter. In the end it could be debateble and probably personal oppinion as we have a lot of unknown with Tobi.

[Prince Sasuke]

I gave you three perfectly good reason why Tobi is above kakashi when it comes to sharingan.

1. Better control - control of the Kyuubi with basic sharingan, summon the Kyuubi.
2. More knowledge - Tobi brings more knowledge to the manga about the sharingan then anyone else. Itachi is a far second.
3. Better jutsu - space-time, phasing,wrapping, can't to touch for five minutes, Izanagi.

All of that equals to better mastery.

[Uchiha_Blood]

@Uchiha_Blood

Are you actualy comparing Kakashi from back then to Minato? Kakashi was way younger then Minato. Its like comparing a 10 years old with someone in his 30. Kakashi was more then able to trick Itachi.
The man is easy on Minato's level. Minato made Rasengan when he was older and after having a look at the biju bomb. Kakashi made that jutsu by himself. Then we have the rest of his fights where he should to be just incredible smart, fighting people like Itachi and countering all his jutsus perfecly and saving Kurenai (aside from the MS genjutsu). Kakashi is as smart as Shika that has an IQ of 220 or something like that (stated so by Naruto, no idea if he is right lol but aparently Kishi usualy speaks trough his caracters, even idiots like Naruto. So take it as you whant). He is defenetly up with Minato in smarts and tactics.
Then think of how he was deducing in latest chapters Tobi's skills that impresed Tobi.

If they strike at the same time its diferent. As Minato could dodge 1 and then get hit by the other.
Long range stuff:
-Kamui
-Raiton: Ryouken
-Suiton: Daibakufu no Jutsu
-Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu
-Suiton: Suikōdan no Jutsu

To bad we don't knwo the rest of his 1000 jutsus but this is more then enough. Then take into account that he has a lake there and an waterfall. Then take into account Kakashi using water(that is going to be everywhere) + raiton to stun Minato to make Gai get a shoot in.

Kakashi could use a Earth Release: Underground Projection Fish Technique to pop right under Minato when he is distracted to dodge Gai. Obviously if they are no on the water at that point.

Now keep in mind that just because he can ST it does not mean he can't be hit as proven in his fight with Tobi when he got tagged multiple times.

Remember the "every jutsu has a weakness" speech?
Who other was able to tell the weakness of a jutsu with just a glance? Kakashi was able to do it after being subjected several times over to God Realm while Yondaime and Itachi saw a jutsu and pointed that weakness right after that.

As for Kakashi's long range ninjutsus, they are all useless, you know that? I don't doubt that they would be effective against low level opponent, but against a guy that teleported the hell out from a blitz attack from Raikage?
Not really. Since except Kamui and that eletric dog thing they require a good deal of handseals, thus easily dodgeable.

As for Tobi tagging Yondaime, really? When? When did Tobi even got close of doing anything worth of mentioning to Yondaime?

He can't trow Kunai's far enough to pop a km away. He is going to dodge in some 10-15 meters area and in all this time he is going to have Kakashi on his ass to.

Not a kilometer, but say he stuck one or two on the rocky wall or in the statues.
Remember when, in Kakashi's gaiden, Yondaime's shuriken traveled where that ninja was hiding? A shuriken.

Now when it comes to genjutsu. Itachi is way above Sasuke in that area even if his eye is better. Eye jutsus work the same way. Only how good you can cast it and what not, but 1 simple eye contact is enough.

Still doesn't mean that Kakashi's sharingan is comparable to Itachi's or Sasuke's for that matter.
Or Tobi's

You don't know if that was Tobi or not (he had long hair and its way back). You also don't know how it was achomplised and if he had or not the Biju's cooperation or something. This can't be used as you don't know the circumstances of that feat.

Considering Kisame recognized him when he presented himself as his real self, it is pretty sure he was Tobi.
As for Bijuu's cooperation, seriously? Did you read the manga where all bijuus hated Tobi's enslavement? Tobi is better, plain and simple

If nothing else Tobi had the Kyuubi already into a genjutsu. How do you know that he can even genjutsu another target when he is bussy keeping the bloody Kyuubi under his control? Sry but to many variable. You can't use this as evidence. Also the Kyuubi is a special case, can't be used.

How can we know that? He used his intangibility, which I believe to be way more complex than a single genjutsu.
For all intent and purpose, that fight showed just that. If you don't believe it, feel free to do so, we would only go around in circles

it showes what he can do based on his feats. The point is he never showed to be able to do it even fs somewhat fodder people like Danzou's bodyguards. Also he was unable to blitz anybody easy. Not even the boodyguards. Also 3 fights, Minato, bodyguards and Konan.

He blitzed the handpicked ANBU of Sarutobi. He swatted away the two best operatives of ROOT, knowing that he could replicate his arm over and over. He lost to Yondaime, but fleed because he relinquished his control over Kyuubi. And against Konan he survived against 6 billion paper bombs and an opponent that was ultra prepared to fight him and knew his weakness.
And by feats he enslaved a perfect Jinchuuriki, Kushina & Kyuubi and Konan in a genjutsu, so I will go by manga feats, thank you

They are fighting over a huge pool of water where Minato does not have exacly marks. He can mark the edges of the waterfall but that is it. Now Minato should do it as he is entering neutral grounds compared to Kakashi and Gai. But yes he can mark JMan and what not.

There are rock walls, and the statues.
VOTE is so not because of the waterfalls, but because of the statues of Madara and Hashirama

He has aoe attacks with his punches and is helped by Kakashi. He can't do it alone defenetly. But he can be more then a distraction for Kakashi to trow some huge area of effect jutsus(as i posted that list above).

Which aren't that effective since Yondaime has Hiraishin.
Simple as that

Never said he would get outsmarted. I stated that Kakashi is mart enough to formulate a plan where 2 people with long range jutsus could land a hit/hits. Nobody is untouchable.
Even Tobi never got outsmarted in there fight. Minato just tricked Tobi with an unknown, his lvl 2 ST teleport.

Right back at you, nobody is untouchable, and Yondaime could well formulate a plan to deal with Kakashi and Gai.
And the level 2 wasn't known, so pretty much Gai and Kakashi would fall for it.

Open a small rift the size of your finger and warp away just a little bit of JMan's brain. GG
There is no need to warp away JMan completly. Just open the rift and warp a little bit and close it. Bam dead JMan.

Problem with that?
Kakashi never showed to be able to do such things. So no, I don't think he would be able to do that

Yes but fighting over the water he would need to engage away from the Kunai's. The point is he is going to need to use his normal speed just as much as ST. A battlefield that is not set up like that where he fights Raikage (tags and kunai everywhere) is going to end up like Tobi vs Minato where he used mostly his normal speed.

Considering that he was praised by Tobi even in his normal speed, I assume that he is faster than Kakashi and Gai

You are not comparing the intelligence between a 13 year old, newly promoted Jounin and a Kage Level Shinobi?

I'm comparing the feats of three grown up shibobis, two of which were able to instantly discern a jutsu weakness by a glance while the third was able to do it after experiencing the jutsu over and over.

Yes, it was commented by Tobi and Orochimaru that Sasukes Sharingan has more potential than Itachis, but Sasuke never showed that his eyes surpassed Itachis. We saw the strongest Sasuke (with his own eyes) against Danzou, which clearly isn't Itachis level.

Want a better example to validate your opinion?
Use the battle they are having against Kabuto, where Itachi is overshadowing Sasuke pretty badly. Against Danzou Sasuke performed admirably, and he showed to be pretty capable of his own, better than Itachi with both Susano'o and Amaterasu. Itachi simply has the most haxed shield+weapon combination of the entire Narutoverse, but that isn't eye power, is hax power.

[xXan]

I gave you three perfectly good reason why Tobi is above kakashi when it comes to sharingan.

1. Better control - control of the Kyuubi with basic sharingan, summon the Kyuubi.
2. More knowledge - Tobi brings more knowledge to the manga about the sharingan then anyone else. Itachi is a far second.
3. Better jutsu - space-time, phasing,wrapping, can't to touch for five minutes, Izanagi.

All of that equals to better mastery.

1-That is not a feat of anything. Sharingan is meant to control the Kyuubi, they have a special connection. Give me a real genjutsu feat. What controled the Kyuubi was not even a genjutsu as it was able to produce real physical changes in the eye of the kyuubi(probably has a genjutsu component to). The only feat here is the knowledge on how to perform said jutsu/genjutsu. Also Tobi and Madara have a blood pact with it as they where able to summon it.
2- Yes that is a given, not that is going to help him much in a fight. What he is going to write a speach about the sharingan? You don't need to know the laws of physics to trow a rock.
3-Aside from Izanagi you can't prove any of the rest are sharingan jutsu. Even ST jutsu and is questionable as Kakashi needs MS to control space time (even the databooks states that it can be learned but you need MS). Just the fact that it opens in the eye area is not conclusive evidence of it.

Again i faill to see how Kakashi is not on Tobi's sharingan level in a fight.

Kakashi has better fighting feats with his precog sharigan ability, able to copy some 1000 jutsus, able to perform genjutsu to own Zabuza, able to produce Kamui to rip people appart or provide incredible defence. Then we have him countering jutsus with the same jutsus at the same time (Kisame in part 1 when he was in Konoha). His sharingan skill is more then you give him credit. Then him able to counter and fight off Itachi and countering jutsus on the same level with his eye and skill.
Tobi has no genjutsu feats (in combat), no MS. What he has is Izanagi and aside from that we can't make a clear gues if his warping IS a sharingan ability or he is just using the sharingan to help perform it or whatever. You don't have any evidence of it.

@Uchiha_Blood

Yondaime and Itachi saw a jutsu and pointed that weakness right after that

Not going to start debating Itachi but what has Minato able to do? Knowing that you can attack Tobi only when he is tangible? LOL 5 years old level much? Knowing that a linear frontal trust leaves you oppen to attack as at that speed its hard to make corse corrections? Yes this is above 10 years old but not much. You will have to find something better then this. Kakashi showed more impresive feat of tactics when he used that dude to swich minds with him and then guide him in the mist to Zabuza and then get him with the shadow jutsu.

As for Kakashi's long range ninjutsus, they are all useless, you know that? I don't doubt that they would be effective against low level opponent, but against a guy that teleported the hell out from a blitz attack from Raikage?

For some reason you belive that if he could dodge a melee hit from Raikage he can dodge a huge wall of water going his way from multiple angles and using Gai as a distraction.
Tobi was able to grab his hand and tie him up in chains (all melee ranged attacks). You CAN land hits on him. If Minato could teleport that fast he would have teleport just as Tobi was closing his hand around Minato's hand and before the chains would have wraped around him.

Since except Kamui and that eletric dog thing they require a good deal of handseals, thus easily dodgeable.

Yes because if a jutsu needs handseals it can be dodged...

As for Tobi tagging Yondaime, really? When? When did Tobi even got close of doing anything worth of mentioning to Yondaime?

Minato almost died the first time Tobi grabed him. If not for Tobi's arrogance Minato would have died... All Tobi had to do is warp as fast as he could. Also the point was that Minato CAN be tagged.

Not a kilometer, but say he stuck one or two on the rocky wall or in the statues.
Remember when, in Kakashi's gaiden, Yondaime's shuriken traveled where that ninja was hiding? A shuriken.

And Kakashi usses doton to remove and colapse the wall. Also i don't know what you are refering here? The ninja hiding in the tree? Minato placed a tag when he grabed Kakashi. Are you refering to something else?

Still doesn't mean that Kakashi's sharingan is comparable to Itachi's or Sasuke's for that matter.
Or Tobi's

It does not need to be to act just like any other sharingan. Sharingan genjutsu takes effect with a simple glance. Now how powerfull you can make that genjutsu and how refined its another thing.

Considering Kisame recognized him when he presented himself as his real self, it is pretty sure he was Tobi.
As for Bijuu's cooperation, seriously? Did you read the manga where all bijuus hated Tobi's enslavement? Tobi is better, plain and simple

Kisame also belived Tobi is Madara. This proves nothing. We don't know who was that.

Naruto got traped in a genjutsu multiple times and the Kyuubi never showed up to help.
For the above to be valid you need to prove:
1-It was Tobi and not Madara back then.
2-The biju was able and willing to help. You need the biju to be your team partner.

How can we know that? He used his intangibility, which I believe to be way more complex than a single genjutsu.
For all intent and purpose, that fight showed just that. If you don't believe it, feel free to do so, we would only go around in circles

No. I am asking you for evidence that Tobi can use whatever that jutsu is to control the Kyuubi and then use another genjutsu. Then i need you to provide evidence that Tobi fights with genjutsu or your comparison is completly irrelevant. You can't use those events to back up anything. You need to provide clear evidence of X encounter to use it as evidence. I am not the one trying to pass it as evidence, YOU are so you need to provide evidence. I am not providing X as fact and then ask you to provide evidence of the contrary.

You whant to ignore that Tobi was already controling the Kyuubi trough the power of his eye (THE KYUUBI) and the fact that he does not ends up using genjutsu in a fight. Why? Because you whant to grant Minato genjutsu immunity? Please.

Also you have no evidence that intangibility is a sharingan jutsu.

He blitzed the handpicked ANBU of Sarutobi

Oh wow fodder.... I would also LOVE for you to post the panels when that happened and not just the end result lol. You aparently like to take the outcome and then provide any fanfic you like of what happened there (in the offpaneled part).

He swatted away the two best operatives of ROOT, knowing that he could replicate his arm over and over.

Slow targets and he never used genjutsu... That was the point. We are not debating his skill in battle. Also it was not a blitz. Him winning that and beating him is irrelevant to what we where discusing and that was: Not using genjutsu and not blittzing them.

And against Konan he survived against 6 billion paper bombs and an opponent that was ultra prepared to fight him and knew his weakness.

She had no idea about Izanagi. Tobi great, incredible feat here is activating a jutsu lol. Danzou activating it some 10 times must be the biggest genious in this manga.

And by feats he enslaved a perfect Jinchuuriki

Provide evidence that:
1-It was Tobi and not Madara. You will need to show me when Madara died and what is Tobi, who is Tobi and so on.
2-It was a perfect Jin and his Biju was actualy his team partner and it tryied to help.

Kushina & Kyuubi and Konan in a genjutsu

Kushina never. Also she was weak as hell in no condition to fight back so its irrelevant anyway.
Kyuubi has a special connection to Tobi and the sharingan in general. Its no feat aside from knowing how to activate a jutsu.
Konan was close to dead and in no condition to fight back. She was close to dead with a pipe in her chest.

so I will go by manga feats, thank you

If those are impresive feats Naruto beating Sasuke close to death and then Konohamaru providing the last hit and stating he won the fight would be just as big.

There are rock walls, and the statues.
VOTE is so not because of the waterfalls, but because of the statues of Madara and Hashirama

Of course a rock base is present but most of the area is water. Also VOE is because who had a fight there and not the statues. The statues are just build there in honor of those who had a fight there.

Which aren't that effective since Yondaime has Hiraishin.
Simple as that

He can't dodge Kakashi and Gai by himself ffs. Good thing the majority of people don't agree with this...

Right back at you, nobody is untouchable, and Yondaime could well formulate a plan to deal with Kakashi and Gai.
And the level 2 wasn't known, so pretty much Gai and Kakashi would fall for it.

He could but small chanses. Good thing for him that he has JMan there. This fight is diferent from having a kunai go trough someone head and then popping on his back. Also Gai is not going to charge in like a nut like Raikage as long as he has Kakashi there.

Also LVL 2 is teleporting to a moving kunai. Kakashi already had a kunai and waving it about when Minato popped there and saved his but. It makes sense for him to know it. I am not even going into the holl Kakashi was his student and he should know him better then most.

Problem with that?
Kakashi never showed to be able to do such things. So no, I don't think he would be able to do that

Not to a dudes head but if he can do that to a rocket he can do that to a head. Its just matter.
What if a bullet can pierce a solid wall you whant evidence that it can pierce a human skull?
It was able to close to instantly swallow a huge arrow (the size of a man) that made got stuck inside solid rock ground and whent trough a tree.

Considering that he was praised by Tobi even in his normal speed, I assume that he is faster than Kakashi and Gai

When he was praised it was more like a taunt. Yes he is fast but he was meant to cach Naruto. Tobi was expecting it to happen, to state that he was impresed there when he knew that would happen... But not that it matters as i do belive he is faster then Kakashi and Gai (no gates) but they are more then able to keep up.

[vanyar]

Jiriaya excels in the water, I can see him taking Guy out with Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison provided Guy is not in Gate Form.

Minato is fast but I can't see him doing that much without prior Kunai set up considering Kakashi has Sharingan prediction and Guy is fast in his own right. So Minato is very limited to what he can do, yet the terrain supports Kakashi as he has Water Release Techniques and he can using Lightning release which could turn the battle easily provided Jiraiya and Minato are on the water considering water conducts electricity.

I'm going to go with Jiraiya and Minato, Jiriaya has too much going for him and I believe he could finish Guy before going Gate Mode. Leaving Kakashi against Minato and Jiraiya which combined they could take Kakashi down. Maybe.

[Prince Sasuke]

1-That is not a feat of anything. Sharingan is meant to control the Kyuubi, they have a special connection. Give me a real genjutsu feat. What controled the Kyuubi was not even a genjutsu as it was able to produce real physical changes in the eye of the kyuubi(probably has a genjutsu component to). The only feat here is the knowledge on how to perform said jutsu/genjutsu. Also Tobi and Madara have a blood pact with it as they where able to summon it.
2-

Its not a feat? lol ok. MS is meant to control the Kyuubi, not basic sharingan. Tobi is the one only to show that he has the power to control Kyuubi with basic shringan,not saying others can't do it, like Madara, If that's not a feat, then you don't know the meaning of the word.
Feat: a noteworthy or extraordinary act or achievement, usually displaying boldness, skill, etc.
Give you a real Genjutsu feat? lol. (I'm beginning no to take you seriously) Mind control over Kyuubi,and Konan. If that's not good enough for you, then to bad.
Show me Manga proof that Tail beast sign contracts. Tail beast are chakra monsters, not blood having flesh animals. I see you do to much assuming in your post.

2- Yes that is a given, not that is going to help him much in a fight. What he is going to write a speech about the sharingan? You don't need to know the laws of physics to trow a rock

Glad you agree, but you are wrong. If Tobi and Kakashi was to battle, and both of there main powers comes from the sharingan it would help Tobi out tremendously,In fact, i'm willing to say it would probably decide the outcome of there battle. Tobi knows the strength and weakness of the sharingan inside and out, while Kakashi is still learning day by day. Kakashi not knowing about Izanagi would be enough to make him lose the battle.

3-Aside from Izanagi you can't prove any of the rest are sharingan jutsu. Even ST jutsu and is questionable as Kakashi needs MS to control space time (even the databooks states that it can be learned but you need MS). Just the fact that it opens in the eye area is not conclusive evidence of it.

Again i faill to see how Kakashi is not on Tobi's sharingan level in a fight.

Kakashi has better fighting feats with his precog sharigan ability, able to copy some 1000 jutsus, able to perform genjutsu to own Zabuza, able to produce Kamui to rip people appart or provide incredible defence. Then we have him countering jutsus with the same jutsus at the same time (Kisame in part 1 when he was in Konoha). His sharingan skill is more then you give him credit. Then him able to counter and fight off Itachi and countering jutsus on the same level with his eye and skill.
Tobi has no genjutsu feats (in combat), no MS. What he has is Izanagi and aside from that we can't make a clear gues if his warping IS a sharingan ability or he is just using the sharingan to help perform it or whatever. You don't have any evidence of it.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/453 Is definitely proof that's is a sharingan Jutsu, its still unclear whether or not it's MS or basic. That shouldn't matter cause the debate isn't about Tobi''s basic sharingan >> Kakashi's MS.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/467/6 Definitely comes from the sharingan. MS or not is Irrelevant. (using your famous word) The Jutsu comefrom the EYE!!!

He didn't contol Kisame or Zabuza, he was merely coping there Jutsu while they perfom it.
He's able to fight off Itachi with his eye Jutsu? lol. http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/142/2 Kakashi kew he was introuble from the start lol.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/142/13
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/142/15 Kakashi not being a uchiha automatic makes him a level below the rest. No blood, no beating Tsukuyomi.
I provided you with everything thing. Like i said you don't like to admitt when your wrong.

[marshall313]

Not going to start debating Itachi but what has Minato able to do? Knowing that you can attack Tobi only when he is tangible? LOL 5 years old level much? Knowing that a linear frontal trust leaves you oppen to attack as at that speed its hard to make corse corrections? Yes this is above 10 years old but not much. You will have to find something better then this. Kakashi showed more impresive feat of tactics when he used that dude to swich minds with him and then guide him in the mist to Zabuza and then get him with the shadow jutsu.

Honestly, this 5 years old level crap is really ridiculous. Minato knows tobi's jutsu in a second. But what about sasuke? so sasuke has a 5 years old level? of what? intelligence? If itachi knows tobi's 5 minutes limit of his jutsu, don't you think itachi can kill tobi? So maybe itachi and sasuke has the same level of a 5 years old.

At topic:

Jiraiya and minato can win this with ease. Their combination attack is much deadlier than kakashi and guy. Infact, even minato and jiraiya can solo both of them.

And jiraiya's techniques is much powerful than guy and kakashi's techniques. Swamp to the underworld and super hair jutsu of jiraiya is enough to defeat kakashi and guy. Just like someone said, that jiraiya's hair can hold even the meteor jutsu of madara. So yeah, i can't find a way on kakashi and guy to defeat jiraiya.

[xXan]

@Prince Sasuke

Its not a feat? lol ok. MS is meant to control the Kyuubi, not basic sharingan. Tobi is the one only to show that he has the power to control Kyuubi with basic shringan,not saying others can't do it, like Madara, If that's not a feat, then you don't know the meaning of the word.

Sasuke showed in part 1 that he can supress the Kyuubi with basic sharingan. Tobi knew the Kyuubi from before that. You don't know what connection is between them to allow Tobi to control it with his basic sharingan. Then he even has some blood pact with the Kyuubi as he was able to summon the thing. Of course i faill to see how this helps Tobi in a fight... This is a jutsu that can only be used on the Kyuubi.
Oh and BTW same for Madara:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/568/7
Basic sharingan. The only 2 people that ever had controled the Kyuubi both used a normal sharingan. If you whant to put this feat above other people with a sharingan (aside from knowing how to do that) you are going to need some better arguments as it was never actualy showed that MS is a must. Both of the only people who have ever done that used a normal sharingan. Oh and i know it was stated that you NEED a MS but aparently you do not.

Give you a real Genjutsu feat? lol. (I'm beginning no to take you seriously) Mind control over Kyuubi,and Konan. If that's not good enough for you, then to bad.

I can see you are avoiding the point. I said in combat genjutsu. Not at the end when the user is helpless and close to death. The Kyuubi also is not a feat of just genjutsu. Whatever Tobi had done to the Kyuubi create a physical change in its eye. Genjutsu CAN'T create any physical changes or do any damage to the body. Whatever was used to control the Kyuubi is diferent.

Show me Manga proof that Tail beast sign contracts. Tail beast are chakra monsters, not blood having flesh animals. I see you do to much assuming in your post.

Naruto only had to put some blood on that scrool. Minato used a sealing contract to stop Tobi's control over the Kyuubi. You need some type of contract to summon something. Also the contract stuff in Naruto-verse is not the same thing as one in real life. Its not like he had to read and sign a real life contract.

lad you agree, but you are wrong. If Tobi and Kakashi was to battle, and both of there main powers comes from the sharingan it would help Tobi out tremendously,In fact, i'm willing to say it would probably decide the outcome of there battle. Tobi knows the strength and weakness of the sharingan inside and out, while Kakashi is still learning day by day. Kakashi not knowing about Izanagi would be enough to make him lose the battle.

Aside from Izanagi there is no information (that we know about) that would help Tobi there.
Minato himself had no idea about Izanagi but he was able to force Tobi to pull back. Tobi would own Kakashi because of his hax jutsus and not his Sharingan information.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/453 Is definitely proof that's is a sharingan Jutsu, its still unclear whether or not it's MS or basic. That shouldn't matter cause the debate isn't about Tobi''s basic sharingan >> Kakashi's MS.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/467/6 Definitely comes from the sharingan. MS or not is Irrelevant. (using your famous word) The Jutsu comefrom the EYE!!!

No it is not. What you got there is the swirls going aroung his eye but that does not mean its a sharingan jutsu. I can insert a nice long fanfic of possible alternatives but it would be irrelevant. Up to the point you can provide manga pics or panels where it is confirmed this is not going to be fact. Is it the most likely hypothesis? Yes i gues. Is it fact? Not before Kishi confirms it in his manga or a databook.
As i said its debateble. He could have some conntection with that dimension trough his eye. It is not the first time people used the eyes as "portals to the souls" or whatever. I can insert multiple possibilities as why that happends but its just fanfic. Kishi needs to confirm how that jutsu is achived first.

He didn't contol Kisame or Zabuza, he was merely coping there Jutsu while they perfom it.

He was able to control Zabuza. Made him belive he could see the future. Zabuza was left with a WTF is going on. He was not replicating the jutsus Zabuza used, he made Zabuza do the jutsus he wanted him to do and then he was doing them to. I really sugest you read that fight again
With Kisame he countered perfecly by using his sharingan to save both of them. He used a clone and suiton to be in 2 places. He saved both of them at the same time.

He's able to fight off Itachi with his eye Jutsu? lol. http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/142/2 Kakashi kew he was introuble from the start lol.

I sugest you read the fight and how well he was able to take care of the situation up to the point Itachi used MS genjutsu. Of coruse he was in trouble as those 2 peeps where incredibly powerfull but that is not really relevant. Look at the fight.

Even Itachi makes a remark about Kakashi's ability with sharingan:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/142/9

More compliments here:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/260/8

Even more here:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/257/8

Now look at Itachi's face here... He could not belive it:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/257/9
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/257/10

Tobi himself complimenting Kakashi and his eye:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/567/12

That is Kakashi-sensei for you.

Later he saved Kurenai again from an exploding clone noticing its a clone and not the real thing. Also the "not able to keep up" was because of the speed Itachi was doing jutsus, Itachi is that fast and still he was able to counter Itachi and save Kurenai just fine.
Later in part 2 he was able to trick Itachi by hiding underground and getting in close, use a clone to trick Itachi to genjutsu that and make an oppening for Naruto to take him down.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/142/13
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/142/15 Kakashi not being a uchiha automatic makes him a level below the rest. No blood, no beating Tsukuyomi.

Ah the proud Uchiha clan.. Nobody is as good as them... The only valid thing in that is that he run out of chakra faster and that he can't fight off Tsukuyomi. Nothing more.

I provided you with everything thing. Like i said you don't like to admitt when your wrong.

I still don't see wher Kakashi is not just as potent with his sharingan in a fight as Tobi. Sure Tobi has other jutsus that are more hax so he is above him because of that but nothing more.
What you provided are not things that would help him fight random ninja X more then Kakashi (sharingan related). Even the Kyuubi control is not something that would help him fight anybody else but the Kyuubi.

Again i agree that Tobi (perhaps Madara to) is the best Sharingan teacher and the man to go to when you need information about sharingan but that is diferent and it does not translate well in a fight.

@marshall313

Honestly, this 5 years old level crap is really ridiculous. Minato knows tobi's jutsu in a second.

In a seccond? He got trapped 2 times before he figured it out. Also you don't need to be genius to know you can't hit a dude when you are hitting empy space now do you?

But what about sasuke? so sasuke has a 5 years old level? of what? intelligence? If itachi knows tobi's 5 minutes limit of his jutsu, don't you think itachi can kill tobi? So maybe itachi and sasuke has the same level of a 5 years old.

Minato himself has no idea about the 5 minutes thing. Same for Sasuke and Itachi. The only one that knew about that are Konan and Tobi. Some other could exist but we got no evidence of it (like Zetsu). So i faill to see what you are comparing there when Minato himself had no idea that Tobi has a 5 mins limit.

[Uchiha_Blood]

@Uchiha_Blood
Not going to start debating Itachi but what has Minato able to do? Knowing that you can attack Tobi only when he is tangible? LOL 5 years old level much? Knowing that a linear frontal trust leaves you oppen to attack as at that speed its hard to make corse corrections? Yes this is above 10 years old but not much. You will have to find something better then this. Kakashi showed more impresive feat of tactics when he used that dude to swich minds with him and then guide him in the mist to Zabuza and then get him with the shadow jutsu.

I was talking about Yondaime knowing about Raikiri's weakness with a glance.
Also, don't forget that Zabuza fooled Kakashi like a noob and trapped him into the water prison. Zabuza. Using only Water clones and a little mist

For some reason you belive that if he could dodge a melee hit from Raikage he can dodge a huge wall of water going his way from multiple angles and using Gai as a distraction.
Tobi was able to grab his hand and tie him up in chains (all melee ranged attacks). You CAN land hits on him. If Minato could teleport that fast he would have teleport just as Tobi was closing his hand around Minato's hand and before the chains would have wraped around him.

He teleported soon after, right not a comparison, since Tobi grabbing Yondaime did him nothing.
He tried to teleport him, he used Hiraishin. He tried to bind him, he used Hiraishin.
He escaped Raikage twice at almost point blank range, and we know that Raikage's speed > 99% of Kakashi and Gai's attacks. So while they could take him by surprise, the chances of it are very low

Yes because if a jutsu needs handseals it can be dodged...

Against a faster opponent that doesn't need handseals for his escaping jutsu yes

Minato almost died the first time Tobi grabed him. If not for Tobi's arrogance Minato would have died... All Tobi had to do is warp as fast as he could. Also the point was that Minato CAN be tagged.

We saw when Yondaime used Hiraishin level 2 that the arrogant one was Tobi.
He said " I will teleport him the instant I touch him", he touched him yet Yondaime teleported away. So no, it further proves that Yondaime's escaping ability with Hiraishin are top notch

And Kakashi usses doton to remove and colapse the wall. Also i don't know what you are refering here? The ninja hiding in the tree? Minato placed a tag when he grabed Kakashi. Are you refering to something else?

When did he removed a wall with Doton?
Remember when Kakashi ran with Chidori? The guy countered with kunais, Yondaime countered those and used a shuriken to mark to Kakashi the exact position of the fodder.
Here

It does not need to be to act just like any other sharingan. Sharingan genjutsu takes effect with a simple glance. Now how powerfull you can make that genjutsu and how refined its another thing.

A weak genjutsu can be dispelled, even if it is an ocular one.
Also it doesn't work that way, you know how genjutsu works. Usually genjutsu are used when the user and the opponent are still and not moving, in every case

Naruto got traped in a genjutsu multiple times and the Kyuubi never showed up to help.
For the above to be valid you need to prove:
1-It was Tobi and not Madara back then.
2-The biju was able and willing to help. You need the biju to be your team partner.

Do you know the definition of "perfect Jinchuuriki"? A perfect Jinchuuriki is a Jinchuuriki that has complete collaboration of the beast. And Yagura was one of them. Also, as I said, Kisame recognized him, so that is actual proof

No. I am asking you for evidence that Tobi can use whatever that jutsu is to control the Kyuubi and then use another genjutsu. Then i need you to provide evidence that Tobi fights with genjutsu or your comparison is completly irrelevant. You can't use those events to back up anything. You need to provide clear evidence of X encounter to use it as evidence. I am not the one trying to pass it as evidence, YOU are so you need to provide evidence. I am not providing X as fact and then ask you to provide evidence of the contrary.

Circular logic, since you need evidence of Yondaime being trapped in an Uchiha genjutsu, or an user of Hiraishin no jutsu do to that either.
Since the situation didn't arise all we are making are assumptions, mine is closer since while not backed by manga feats there are manga feats that can prove it.
We saw Tobi using the genjutsu on Kyuubi and another Sharingan ability. Since the genjutsu is a sharingan ability, it is safe to assume he could do both

You whant to ignore that Tobi was already controling the Kyuubi trough the power of his eye (THE KYUUBI) and the fact that he does not ends up using genjutsu in a fight. Why? Because you whant to grant Minato genjutsu immunity? Please.

Facts are facts, they are not dependant by my wish or yours.
We agree to disagree, simple as that

Also you have no evidence that intangibility is a sharingan jutsu.

it originates from his Sharingan, so yeah, it is enough evidence

Oh wow fodder.... I would also LOVE for you to post the panels when that happened and not just the end result lol. You aparently like to take the outcome and then provide any fanfic you like of what happened there (in the offpaneled part).

Fodder as they might be, both Yondaime and Sarutobi were overly impressed that someone could eliminate those effortlessy.
What we saw is Tobi doing so without having any wound. Again believe what you want

Provide evidence that:
1-It was Tobi and not Madara. You will need to show me when Madara died and what is Tobi, who is Tobi and so on.
2-It was a perfect Jin and his Biju was actualy his team partner and it tryied to help.

1-Again, the Kisame one
2-here

Kushina never. Also she was weak as hell in no condition to fight back so its irrelevant anyway.
Kyuubi has a special connection to Tobi and the sharingan in general. Its no feat aside from knowing how to activate a jutsu.
Konan was close to dead and in no condition to fight back. She was close to dead with a pipe in her chest.

Kushina yes, since it has to bypass Kushina's "seal" or "protection" or whatever was that thing to unleash the Kyuubi.
What does being half dead matters to anything? If one's genjutsu is strong, that genjutsu is strong. Of course it is easier, yet Tobi never expressed a doubt that his genjutsu wouldn't work.
Hell even Kabuto commented on it

Of course a rock base is present but most of the area is water. Also VOE is because who had a fight there and not the statues. The statues are just build there in honor of those who had a fight there.

VOTE's most defining characteristic is the presence of the two statues in commemoration of the event.
The waterfall is just a side effect of the battle

He can't dodge Kakashi and Gai by himself ffs. Good thing the majority of people don't agree with this...

People's opinion < Manga facts

He could but small chanses. Good thing for him that he has JMan there. This fight is diferent from having a kunai go trough someone head and then popping on his back. Also Gai is not going to charge in like a nut like Raikage as long as he has Kakashi there.

And what he would do?
His only chance is going with the gates, after which he is spent

Also LVL 2 is teleporting to a moving kunai. Kakashi already had a kunai and waving it about when Minato popped there and saved his but. It makes sense for him to know it. I am not even going into the holl Kakashi was his student and he should know him better then most.

The level 2 allows Yondaime to teleport before the kunai hits.
What would Kakashi do, then, if Yondaime would launch one at him?
Dodge? Parry? Both ways he is dead

Not to a dudes head but if he can do that to a rocket he can do that to a head. Its just matter.
What if a bullet can pierce a solid wall you whant evidence that it can pierce a human skull?
It was able to close to instantly swallow a huge arrow (the size of a man) that made got stuck inside solid rock ground and whent trough a tree.

Then why doesn't Kakashi blitz everything if it is so easy?
Why didn't he blitzed Sasuke before he went all insane? Or even after for that matter? Simply put, from manga facts we know that teleporting humans with kamui is way more difficult. Hell against Deidara he teleported the explosion in an instant.
See?

[Prince Sasuke]

XXan

Why are you trying to make this about a fight??? You state "I don't see how this would help him in a fight" Atlest twice in every post, when this debate has nothing to do with who is the best ninja, or who would win the fight between the two, or who had more jutsu. IT'S ABOUT WHO HAS BETTER MASTERY OVER THE SHARINGAN. Please stay on the subject, and stop wandering off to help your debate.

1. Sasuke suppressing the Kyuubi,s power is not the same as Tobi controling it. If you think every person with the sharingan can suppress the Kyuubi power, then your fooling yourself. Sasuke doing that feat was to show that he has very strong eyes like Tobi and Orochimaru suggested.

2. Stop with this 'connection' crap, It's just an excuse. Whether Tobi has a 'connection' or not, he is performing a feat that Kakashi simply can't do.
3.Your logic is flawed to the fullest. Why is it ok for you to speculate about some special 'connection', and a blood pact, but it's not ok for me to speculate (when I provide proof) about Tobi abilites (sharingan)?? Double standard!
4. Like I said, Tobi is the only one to show(from the manga) that he can control the Kyuubi. Madara was only shown to summon, but I'm a 100% sure Madara can perform the same feat. Hey, but your the one with the double standard, so that works in my favor.

5. As I said, this is not about a battle. IT'S ABOUT BETTER SHARINGAN MASTERY. Stay on the subject.
6. Of course it's a Genjutsu, it's a mind control genjutsu. Sasuke did the same thing to manda when he was saved from the bomb.

7. Naruto was the only person in the show to sign a contract. Pain summon about five different animals, Sasuke wasn't shown to sign contracts with snakes, or hawks, but you want me to believe that's the only way? Double standard.

8 so you admitt Tobi has swirls going around his EYE, but it's not a sharingan ability?? Lol.. What a joke.

9. For the third time you make this about a battle, when it's about BETTER SHARINGAN MASTERY!! FYI Tobi hax abilites come from his sharingan lol.

10. Um yes he was. Zabuza didn't know the sharingan predicts movement, he only knew the sharingan could copy jutsu. I reread the chapter.

11. For the 10th time it's not about a fight..... BETTER SHARINGAN MASTERY. Not about kakashi skills as a ninja. He don't have the body, and only one eye.... That's why he is not on Tobi's level.

12. Yea your right. NO ONE is as good as the Uchiha clan when it comes to MASTERY OF THE SHARINGAN. Lol Kakashi lost to Tsukuyomi because he don't have the body/blood.... Not cause he ran out of chakra. Stop making stuff up.

13. For the 50th time. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A BATTLE!!! IT'S ABOUT BETTER SHARINGAN MASTERY. Once you grasp that concept you'll see that Kakashi pales in comparison to Tobi. Better control, better knowledge, better jutsu.........

[Naruto2011]

Is stupid to think that kakashi has better sharingan mastery than Tobi this panel is enough to show how ineffective kakashis ms jutsu is to him

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v52/c487/4.html

Tobis mastery if the sharingan is way beyond kakashis, it is silly to think not

[vanyar]

Yondaime > Kakashi in intelligence, as proven when the creator of the jutsu couldn't come up with its weakness when Yondaime did with a single glance.

So Kakashi's intelligence didn't increase from when he was 13?

Factually it has. The databooks show Kakashi's intelligence increasing, so your claim is baseless.

[xXan]

@Uchiha_Blood

I was talking about Yondaime knowing about Raikiri's weakness with a glance.
Also, don't forget that Zabuza fooled Kakashi like a noob and trapped him into the water prison. Zabuza. Using only Water clones and a little mist.

That was an incomplete jutsu as stated by Minato himself. He noticed the weekness right before his eyes when he had to save Kakashi. He would have to be a bloody moron not the figure it out.

I have better feats from Kakashi in this area:
Stated by ITACHI:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/257/8
This is coming from Itachi himself.
Even about using kills:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/260/8

Then we have an even better one from Tobi:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/567/12
Even complimenting his eye.

In feats in this area Kakashi is well above. Kakashi is defenetly on Minato's level (brains).

He teleported soon after, right not a comparison, since Tobi grabbing Yondaime did him nothing.
He tried to teleport him, he used Hiraishin. He tried to bind him, he used Hiraishin.
He escaped Raikage twice at almost point blank range, and we know that Raikage's speed > 99% of Kakashi and Gai's attacks. So while they could take him by surprise, the chances of it are very low

The point is he got tagged. If that was something that could actualy do damage he would have got it... That is the point. HE CAN BE TAGGED.

99% of Kakashi perhaps but not 7 gates Gai. Also you don't need speed to set up traps, distractions or anything like that. RM Naruto is on Minato's level of SPEED but Nagato using an invizible lizard was able to grab him.

Against a faster opponent that doesn't need handseals for his escaping jutsu yes

You can set up distractions, traps and lots of other things. Also Kakashi's jutsus have a wide range (the water one). They are like a big wave. 7 gates gay also had aoe attacks just by punching.

We saw when Yondaime used Hiraishin level 2 that the arrogant one was Tobi.
He said " I will teleport him the instant I touch him", he touched him yet Yondaime teleported away. So no, it further proves that Yondaime's escaping ability with Hiraishin are top notch.

Tobi was not arrogant at that point. He noticed his hand closer then Minato's rasengan and he belive he got him. The arrogance was before that.

Tobi needs to use his hands, he can't teleport with the chain. Tobi stated he would get him if he grabs him again, Minato stated something close to the same thing and then Tobi was damn sure he could warp Minato faster then Minato can move that Rasengan 1cm to impale Tobi's head.

When did he removed a wall with Doton?

He used a wall jutsu vs Nagato. Just make it pop from the clif. It should work.

Remember when Kakashi ran with Chidori? The guy countered with kunais, Yondaime countered those and used a shuriken to mark to Kakashi the exact position of the fodder.
Here

I still don't see what you are talking about. The fodder was marked here:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/240/8
Notice his hand on the fodder leg.
Then here is the tag:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/240/9

A weak genjutsu can be dispelled, even if it is an ocular one.
Also it doesn't work that way, you know how genjutsu works. Usually genjutsu are used when the user and the opponent are still and not moving, in every case

We have clear evidence of genjutsu used at high speeds. You just need eye contact and nothing more. Minato would first need to figure out he is in 1 and that could give guy a chanse to land a hit in with his 7 gates.

Do you know the definition of "perfect Jinchuuriki"? A perfect Jinchuuriki is a Jinchuuriki that has complete collaboration of the beast. And Yagura was one of them. Also, as I said, Kisame recognized him, so that is actual proof

I don't remember it stated anywhere. It was stated that he was MAYBE able to control his biju. In what form we have no idea. Tobi/Madara can control the Kyuubi but that does not mean he would team up with them... There is no evidence the biju was ok with helping him, able to do it or anything of the sorts.
Kisame also belived Tobi is Madara... Big woup. Now stop using off panel stuff to back your points where you can create any scenario you whant.

Circular logic, since you need evidence of Yondaime being trapped in an Uchiha genjutsu, or an user of Hiraishin no jutsu do to that either.

Its circular logic only to people with a bad grasp of logic. An individual first needs to show he is cabable of doing something before they are consider able to do it. The absense of feats is not a feat in itself. But then again i don't expect you to accept it...
Even the mods stated the same thing in the tournament:
A ninja can only be consider as he was showed pic or panel in the manga (not the exact words but close enough).

We saw Tobi using the genjutsu on Kyuubi and another Sharingan ability. Since the genjutsu is a sharingan ability, it is safe to assume he could do both.

No its not... You don't even know for sure if warping is a sharingan ability. 1 thing is for sure you can't prove it and no the swirls around his eye is not good enough evidence.

Facts are facts, they are not dependant by my wish or yours.
We agree to disagree, simple as that

Yes but the facts are Tobi never used genjutsu in a fight and in this fact he was already bussy controling the Kyuubi trough the power of his eyes. Even Tobi later is not using diferent jutsus when he was controling the jins with the power of his eyes (rinnegan abilities). You whant to use as feat of countering genjutsu from a man that NEVER used a genjutsu in a fight? WoW great feat.

it originates from his Sharingan, so yeah, it is enough evidence

No its not. Provide evidence it originats from his sharingan.

Fodder as they might be, both Yondaime and Sarutobi were overly impressed that someone could eliminate those effortlessy.
What we saw is Tobi doing so without having any wound. Again believe what you want

Nice logic there. You first stated they where blitzed and now you are ignoring that. You like making up anything you like to things that happened of panel... I can do that to you know... Tobi summon Kisame and an entire squad of elite ninjas in those (not seen) panels and then he warped them away when the fight was done. Tobi was left there killing the last dude that was already close to death on the ground.

Tobi having no would does not mean much. Fodder are fodder and they will always be that.
Sasuke was able to kill an entire army (Oro's training) and he had 0 damage....

2-here

I belive you need to read it again. Its stated MAYBE. Like in perhaps, not sure, could be. Then its not stated how that control was achived and if or not that biju was able to bust him out at that time or if Mizukage would even whant that. You have no idea what exacly happened there.
Again you like to interpret off panel stuff any way you like but you can't do that.

Kushina yes, since it has to bypass Kushina's "seal" or "protection" or whatever was that thing to unleash the Kyuubi.

No, Sasuke used the same trick to look inside Naruto and stop Kyuubi's chakra.

What does being half dead matters to anything? If one's genjutsu is strong, that genjutsu is strong. Of course it is easier, yet Tobi never expressed a doubt that his genjutsu wouldn't work.

It does matter as you can't use the well known way of busting out of genjutsu even if you know you are in 1. Its like stating i can shoot Superman if he is already effected by kryptonite (he can dodge bullets easy normaly). Tobi never used a genjutsu even on close to fodder Danzou's bodyguards.

Hell even Kabuto commented on it

Seriously? We know now that Kabuto can avoid all eye based genjutsu... Seriously do you know what "a lie" is? Also that does not mean Tobi would not first need to beat him down and then genjutsu him (like vs Konan).

VOTE's most defining characteristic is the presence of the two statues in commemoration of the event.
The waterfall is just a side effect of the battle

What is commemorating? The people that had a fight there. I have no idea where you got the waterfall. The statues are just as much relevant to it as the waterfall. The name comes from the people that had a fight there. That is what it represents.

People's opinion < Manga facts

Your oppinion is not manga fact lol

And what he would do?
His only chance is going with the gates, after which he is spent

The gates showed masive speed and huge aoe attack to push back biju's arms and what not in latest chapters. He could cover a huge area with that and then Kakashi with a clone would add with his wide area of effect attacks.

The level 2 allows Yondaime to teleport before the kunai hits.
What would Kakashi do, then, if Yondaime would launch one at him?
Dodge? Parry? Both ways he is dead

Exacly what i stated. To a moving kunai lol. How is it any diferent then before it hits aka stops?

Trow 1 of his own kunai to stop it in the air before it get's to him. Simple. Or just move 2m to the left/right. Also teleporting right in front of Kakashi is not going to do anything as he can counter that. Why do you think he always teleports behind its target? Vs the fodder, vs Raikage, vs Bee, vs Tobi.

Then why doesn't Kakashi blitz everything if it is so easy?
Why didn't he blitzed Sasuke before he went all insane? Or even after for that matter? Simply put, from manga facts we know that teleporting humans with kamui is way more difficult. Hell against Deidara he teleported the explosion in an instant.
See?

He wanted to just that vs Tobi before Tobi told him there would be no point (intangibility).
We also know he does not go with it off the bat as it is dangerous to him but that does not mean he can't do it. He was able to warp something that travels faster them himself and has better durability then himself (the arrow).
I have nothing to see. Back then he had a hard time traking moving targets. The explosion was something that originated from a stationary target. We also know it can rip off parts of your body as it has done that to Deidara's arm.
What you keep giving me is absurd.

@Prince Sasuke

Why are you trying to make this about a fight??? You state "I don't see how this would help him in a fight" Atlest twice in every post, when this debate has nothing to do with who is the best ninja, or who would win the fight between the two, or who had more jutsu. IT'S ABOUT WHO HAS BETTER MASTERY OVER THE SHARINGAN. Please stay on the subject, and stop wandering off to help your debate.

Err you belive this was about making noodles? Of course it was about applying it into a fight. That is what we are discussing here. Read the op/title.

1. Sasuke suppressing the Kyuubi,s power is not the same as Tobi controling it. If you think every person with the sharingan can suppress the Kyuubi power, then your fooling yourself. Sasuke doing that feat was to show that he has very strong eyes like Tobi and Orochimaru suggested.

That is still control. Control on a diferent level but still control.

2. Stop with this 'connection' crap, It's just an excuse. Whether Tobi has a 'connection' or not, he is performing a feat that Kakashi simply can't do.

And now i am left guessing what connection you are refering to? I hope its the sharingan-Kyuubi one? If that is so then its bloody evident. The 10 tails had multiple tomoe eyes.

3.Your logic is flawed to the fullest. Why is it ok for you to speculate about some special 'connection', and a blood pact, but it's not ok for me to speculate (when I provide proof) about Tobi abilites (sharingan)?? Double standard!

It is ok because we know the sharingan can suppres and control ONLY the Kyuubi from all the evidence we have. Then we even have the 10 tails with some sharingan type eyes... Then we have the tomes in the secreat Uchiha hideout stated that MS can control the Kyuubi (and not any biju but the Kyuubi) and Itachi confirming it.
Some type of blood pact or somethind would be needed to summon something. I used blood pact as i don't know what exacly it is but its something.
Tobi's abilities on the other hand have never been implied or showed or even hinted in any way to be sharingan related. There is absolutly nothing in this entire manga aside for the warping swirls around the eyes to even sugest that (and this is only about warping).

4. Like I said, Tobi is the only one to show(from the manga) that he can control the Kyuubi. Madara was only shown to summon, but I'm a 100% sure Madara can perform the same feat. Hey, but your the one with the double standard, so that works in my favor.

Oh ffs. I have you a link with Madara doing it... Do you even read my posts? I even detailed there that the only 2 people to control the Kyuubi have done it with normal sharingan eyes... So is it really a sure thing that you need a MS to do it when the only 2 people that have done it where able to do just that with no MS in there eyes?

5. As I said, this is not about a battle. IT'S ABOUT BETTER SHARINGAN MASTERY. Stay on the subject.

Its interesting as you first post about this stated sharingan user. Like in using the sharingan to do something and you left that oppen and i assumened you where actualy addresing the topic at hand... silly me to belive you where ON topic...

6. Of course it's a Genjutsu, it's a mind control genjutsu. Sasuke did the same thing to manda when he was saved from the bomb.

No its not. As i said a genjutsu can't make ANY physical changes in the target. Its an ilusion. I am not questioning if it has or not a genjutsu component to but its more then that. Even ET jutsu is a jutsu but has a genjutsu component.

Then i sugest you read that part with Manda again as it had no changes in the eyes, just a sharingn reflection type of thing. His eyes where the same(pupil and all).

7. Naruto was the only person in the show to sign a contract. Pain summon about five different animals, Sasuke wasn't shown to sign contracts with snakes, or hawks, but you want me to believe that's the only way? Double standard.

I can't comment with Pein's summons. I have no idea what he was doing as all of them had rinnegan eyes. I really have no idea the specifics of those summons. When you sign a contract you just add your blood to whatever "spells" it contain so you have a type of connection.
As for Sasuke yes, from all we know he should have had that. Kabuto to summon Manda had to use Oro's blood. What you whant Kishi to waste panels any time someone get's a new animal? He showed once how it is achived and it should be enough.
You belive Orochimaru could not get a contract for Sasuke? The the bird i have no idea where he got it but from what we know you need it. JMan himself and had a contract.

If that is not good enough for you read the databook:

Summoning Technique (口寄せの術, Kuchiyose no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, C-rank, Offensive, Defensive, Supplementary
Users: Uzumaki Naruto, Hatake Kakashi, et al

[pictures of Jiraiya smearing blood over his summoning tattoo and slamming his hand on the ground]
→Jiraiya uses his left hand. Naruto uses his right hand for the contract. In any case, the user's blood is essential.

Through a blood contract, fantastic creatures can be called forth!!

This is a kind of space-time ninjutsu, allowing the user to summon any living being with whom they signed a contract in blood, at any time and place they desire. The summoned creature will obey the user with its life, helping in every situation, whether it be fighting or fleeing. The user smears their own blood on the hand they signed the contract with and kneads chakra by doing handseals. Then by turning the palm of that hand to the place they want to summon, they call forth a subordinate they can rely on.

Contract
↓It's not a technique someone of genin-level should use. However, Naruto successfully signed a contract.
[picture of Naruto signing the Toads' contract scroll]

Its not a double standard... Its how Kishi showed us to be done.

8 so you admitt Tobi has swirls going around his EYE, but it's not a sharingan ability?? Lol.. What a joke.

Of course i do but that is not definite or concrete proof of it. Just because x was in the aread and the last person to see the some dead guy does not mean he has done it.
When we get more information by oppinion could change but not as it stands now.

9. For the third time you make this about a battle, when it's about BETTER SHARINGAN MASTERY!! FYI Tobi hax abilites come from his sharingan lol.

FFS...

10. Um yes he was. Zabuza didn't know the sharingan predicts movement, he only knew the sharingan could copy jutsu. I reread the chapter.

This means what? Read it later when Zabuza had his last fight with Kakashi. It is EXPLAINED what he was doing there. Don't stop reading when Zabuza "dies" for the first time. Kakashi was making him belive he could see the future and making Zabuza do the jutsus he wanted.

11. For the 10th time it's not about a fight..... BETTER SHARINGAN MASTERY. Not about kakashi skills as a ninja. He don't have the body, and only one eye.... That's why he is not on Tobi's level.

....

12. Yea your right. NO ONE is as good as the Uchiha clan when it comes to MASTERY OF THE SHARINGAN. Lol Kakashi lost to Tsukuyomi because he don't have the body/blood.... Not cause he ran out of chakra. Stop making stuff up.

You are wlcome to show me where i stated he run out of chakra. I am seriously starting to think you are not reading my posts....

13. For the 50th time. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A BATTLE!!! IT'S ABOUT BETTER SHARINGAN MASTERY. Once you grasp that concept you'll see that Kakashi pales in comparison to Tobi. Better control, better knowledge, better jutsu.........

And for the "insert here number" that was not what you stated the first time you addreset this. Also repeating the same thing over and over is not helping you argument, makes any sense or is valid to anything.

Is stupid to think that kakashi has better sharingan mastery than Tobi this panel is enough to show how ineffective kakashis ms jutsu is to him

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v52/c487/4.html

Tobis mastery if the sharingan is way beyond kakashis, it is silly to think not

Err Intangibility? Of course it would not work as it would be nothing there to hit lol. Tobi has perfect counters to Kakashi but that is not the point here.

[Prince Sasuke]

xXan

My first post was: Kakashi is a good sharingan user, but he is not on the level of Madara,Tobi, Itachi, and Sasuke.
Your response: He is defenetly on Tobi's level as he at least has a MS eye (ignoring the rinnegan).

SO you knew all along what this Conversation was about!! Man up!

Err you belive this was about making noodles? Of course it was about applying it into a fight. That is what we are discussing here. Read the op/title.

I thinki i proving myslef that YOU knew what the conversation was about...... BETTER SHARINGAN MASTERY

That is still control. Control on a diferent level but still control.

Controling the Kyuubi's powers,yes. Controling the Kyuubi NO. Tobi made the Kyuubi fight for him, Sasuke can't do that.
cotrol:to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command

And now i am left guessing what connection you are refering to? I hope its the sharingan-Kyuubi one? If that is so then its bloody evident. The 10 tails had multiple tomoe eyes.

The Tobi Jutsu is 'bloddy evidents' that it comes from his eye..... Name one sharingan that use a Jutsu from his eye that didn't come from the sharingan?? double standard

It is ok because we know the sharingan can suppres and control ONLY the Kyuubi from all the evidence we have. Then we even have the 10 tails with some sharingan type eyes... Then we have the tomes in the secreat Uchiha hideout stated that MS can control the Kyuubi (and not any biju but the Kyuubi) and Itachi confirming it.
Some type of blood pact or somethind would be needed to summon something. I used blood pact as i don't know what exacly it is but its something.
Tobi's abilities on the other hand have never been implied or showed or even hinted in any way to be sharingan related. There is absolutly nothing in this entire manga aside for the warping swirls around the eyes to even sugest that (and this is only about warping).

I was being nice my saying double standard, but the truth is your just a hypocrite... nothing else to say.

Oh ffs. I have you a link with Madara doing it... Do you even read my posts? I even detailed there that the only 2 people to control the Kyuubi have done it with normal sharingan eyes... So is it really a sure thing that you need a MS to do it when the only 2 people that have done it where able to do just that with no MS in there eyes?

Yu are correct on this. i over look that... I never doubted Madara could control the Kyuubi.

Its interesting as you first post about this stated sharingan user. Like in using the sharingan to do something and you left that oppen and i assumened you where actualy addresing the topic at hand... silly me to belive you where ON topic...

Yea silly you lol. See first post.

No its not. As i said a genjutsu can't make ANY physical changes in the target. Its an ilusion. I am not questioning if it has or not a genjutsu component to but its more then that. Even ET jutsu is a jutsu but has a genjutsu component.

Then i sugest you read that part with Manda again as it had no changes in the eyes, just a sharingn reflection type of thing. His eyes where the same(pupil and all).

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/363/11 The eyes have sharingan tomes and even Suigestu notice is was Genjutsu just by looking at manda's eyes.

I can't comment with Pein's summons. I have no idea what he was doing as all of them had rinnegan eyes. I really have no idea the specifics of those summons. When you sign a contract you just add your blood to whatever "spells" it contain so you have a type of connection.
As for Sasuke yes, from all we know he should have had that. Kabuto to summon Manda had to use Oro's blood. What you whant Kishi to waste panels any time someone get's a new animal? He showed once how it is achived and it should be enough.
You belive Orochimaru could not get a contract for Sasuke? The the bird i have no idea where he got it but from what we know you need it. JMan himself and had a contract.

If

My point is don't assume its only one way to gain something. This Manga is notorious for multiple ways of gaining a new feat.

When we get more information by oppinion could change but not as it stands now.

When have a sharingan user use a Jutsu from his eye that wasn't Sharingan related??? Come on.

You are wlcome to show me where i stated he run out of chakra. I am seriously starting to think you are not reading my posts....

Tell me why he can't fight off Tsukuyomi?

And for the "insert here number" that was not what you stated the first time you addreset this. Also repeating the same thing over and over is not helping you argument, makes any sense or is valid to anything.

My arguement has been proven. The only reason we continue is cause you don't want to admitt your defeat, and continue to make the subject(no topic) about something other then what it is.