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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
Last edited by xXan; April 27, 2012 at 01:40 AM.
Quite frankly it dosen't matter whether you are talking about a fight between the two ,or just sharingan Mastery, (which was previous obvious to me) in both cases Tobi stomps.Quote:There are still two other areas we disagree on and that's Control,and Jutsu(sharingan) .... which Tobi stomps.Quote:Doesn't matter the circumstance, that's a feat that Kakashi simply can't do.Quote:My point is that Kakashi don't have the three main areas to ever be on Tobi's level. FYI Kakashi definitely didn't have mastery over his sharigan back then.Quote:
Sasuke activated the CS in a Genjutsu,but when he came out of the Genjutsu the CS wasn't activated..... So it never happen, but that's a can ot worms for another day.Quote:Trrible example, No matter how Naruto looks, they all still gain the same upgrade. More and powee,speed and a bijuu bomb.Quote:I guess i repharse that wrong... I apologize. What i meant to say is I'm using the word 'double standard', when thats just a much more friendly word. The truth is you are a hypocrite. ( thats not a bad word) Its ok for you say that Tobi has some type of 'connenction',or 'summoning pack' with the Kyuubi without Manga proof, but its not ok for me to Say Tobi's Jutsu is sharingan when it comes from his eye,and no other shinobi(with sharingan) can use Jutsu from his eye without it being from the sharingan.Quote:Sasuke could've use a weaker version, or the Jutsu was wearing off cause Manda was dying.... EVen Suigestu said it was GENJUTSU http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/363/11Quote:See perfect example of a hypocrite. can say the same exact thing to you. I suspose to believe that you can sommon a Tail beast that is made of PURE CHAKRA (hae no blood) the same way a person can summon a hawk, toad,or dog?? You need some evidence for that... theres your arguement.Quote:the "connection,orPack you keep mentioning is not any different.Quote:Its not an opinion, its a fact. The reason why its a fact cause Kakashi don't have the body/blood to be on Tobi's leve, He can't control the nine tail beast like Tobi can,He don't have Knowledge that Tobi has..... He can't bring himselfback to life like Tobi can....... thats proof.Quote:
In regards to who has the better Sharingan mastery, I think it is evident that Kakashi has shown to be better at using the Sharingan. He is actually famous for his use of his Sharingan that's why he earned the moniker "Copy Ninja Kakashi". Even without inside knowledge of the Uchiha clan he gained Tomoe and eventually Mangekou Sharingan, creating Kamui in the process.
What's in Tobi's favour is his ability to control Kurama, yet we don't know exactly what this entails, and if Tobi really is an Uchiha or connected to Madara in some way he could easily have knowledge of how to perform this technique. That does not indicate mastery just knowledge.
Now if any of the information I used is inaccurate let me know but from what we have seen Kakashi has shown better mastery of the Sharingan than Tobi.
The only thing that Kakashi has done with Sharingan that tobi hasn't shown is copying jutsu.... which is a key component of the sharingan..... Meaning all sharingan users can do it. Tobi has more knowledge,better jutsu (and thats with just the basic sharingan, and more control. Kakashi only can compete in one are and that's Jutsu. Even i was to say Kakashi has better jutsu,(which he don't) he would still lost two out of three.... Making my statement correct.
Not quite right. Kakashi has shown not to just copy jutsu but to use his eye techniques to manipulate an opponent, in this case he manipulated Zabuza into believing he could read his mind.Quote:
Also Kakashi has trained his Sharingan enough to attain Mangekou Sharingan and create an MS technique, something to my knowledge Tobi has not done.
Agreed, yet Kakashi is the only Sharingan user that we have seen wielding three high level elements.
- Knowledge does not necessarily indicate mastery.Quote:
- Better Sharingan ninjutsu? can you elaborate?
- Other than the Rinnegan he has only used Sharingan to my knowledge so what do you mean by and that's just the basic sharingan
- Can you elaborate on what you mean by control.
Incorrect, the only thing Tobi has shown that Kakashi cannot do to my knowledge is control Kurama, this does not demonstrate better Sharingan mastery just different knowledge.Quote:
Better still in my opinion, mastery would come from not having Uchiha knowledge on the Sharingan and still attaining more Tomoe in his eye and then eventually gaining Mangekou Sharingan and creating Kamui in the process. All the while gaining fame as someone who has copied over 1000 techniques and from what we have seen in the manga he can utilise them very well, as I have stated no Uchiha that I know of has ever shown to use three high level elemental techniques.
Is this Kakashi vs. Tobi or Kakashi and Gai vs. Minato and Jiraiya?
Maybe so, but Tobi took control of Konan, and the Kyuubi. Which is more impressive to you?Quote:
also true, but Tob's 3 tomoe sharingan is been Master to due abilities that make Kakashi MS useless against him.Not true. Sasuke and itachi has three elements of there own.Quote:Knowledge is definitely one of the categories. Tobi knows much more about the sharingan then Kakashi,so he could never be on Tobi's level, if Kakashi don't know what to do next to attain another level.Quote:
They both have basic sharingan abilites, and Kakashi has one MS Jutsu. Tobi has space time, intangible, warping, and Izanagi. Thats what i mean by better sharingan Jutsu.
I mean kakashi don't have the body to control the Sharingan as good as Tobi. Tobi can control the Kyuubi with 3 tome sharingan, Kakashi would need MS, and that's still questionable.As i stated several times. Knowledge,control,and Jutsu are the categories. NO debate about Knowledge. Control... tobi controls the Kyuubi. That should be enough. Jutsu, Tobi has the most hax sharingan Jutsu out of all sharingan users. Why do you think he kept one sharingan eye?Quote:
Its impossible to master something if you don't know every little detail about it. AS i stated above, Sasuke and Itachi has three elements of there own..... Besides that really has nothing to do with Mastering the sharingan... its one of the basic skills that comes with the sharingan.Quote:
Both Minato and Jiraiya are simply in a different league to Kakashi and Gai. In fact the gap in power/skill is so huge that both characters would solo this on their own
---------- Post added at 05:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------
And what is all this talk about Kakashi & Tobi being equal in their sharingan usage?
Tobi used a genjutsu on Konan when she was dying, what is impressive about that? Controlling the Kyuubi is indeed impressive yet we don't know what exactly that entails. It could be Sharingan mastery or it could be just knowledge that top Uchiha are privy too.Quote:
Yes Tobi's abilities are good yet how do we know that his Space-Time jutsu comes from the Sharingan?Quote:
Two elements and a Kekkai Genkai. Kakashi has very high level Lightning, Water and Earth techniques and that's without having a Kekkai Genkai. My point of this was to show Kakashi's mastery of copying techniques to an extent that we have not seen matched in the manga.Quote:
I agree knowledge is a necessary component and to me Tobi definitely has more knowledge on the Sharingan than Kakashi, but the reason why I am saying that Kakashi is just as much a master than Tobi is, is because Kakashi upgraded and strengthened his own Sharingan without knowledge privy the Uchiha have, on his own. He became famous as the Copy-Nin and as I have stated no one, even Uchihas have not demonstrated using as much high level elemental techniques that he has.Quote:
My take on that is:Quote:
They both have basic Sharingan abilities yet Kakashi has shown to be more proficient at using his for combat such as copying techniques and manipulating opponents. Yes Kakashi has one MS jutsu and to my knowledge Tobi has none. Tobi has Space-Time, intangibility, warping and yet we don't know if that comes from the Sharingan. You mention Izanagi and better sharingan Jutsu which I completely agree with, Kakashi has shown nothing that can compare with Izanagi, yet I'm debating who is the better Sharingan master rather than who has the better technique and to me that could go to Kakashi since he is renowned for using his Sharingan and upgraded and bettered it without being a a member of The Uchiha Clan and without knowledge the Uchiha have.
Tobi has more knowledge, he knows how to control the Kyuubi, he knows how to use Izanagi. Does this translate to better mastery though? I am by no means certain that Kakashi is more of a master than Tobi, yet from what we have seen no one has shown to be as famous for copying techniques, he manipulated and controlled Zabuza into believing that he could mind read and from being a non Uchiha gaining MS is amazing as only a handful of Uchiha have achieved it. So does Kakashi's lack of inside Uchiha knowledge make him inferior to Tobi or the fact that he has excelled with the Sharingan yet not being an Uchiha make him more of a master?Quote:
Not really, Guy only if he is not in Gate Mode. Kakashi has shown himself to be Kage level so that would put him on the level of Jiraiya and Minato. Base level Guy not so much yet with 7 gates open Jiraiya nor Minato would solo him maybe even the contrary.Quote:
Last edited by vanyar; April 29, 2012 at 05:14 PM.
Tobi still put Konan in a mind control Genjutsu to get what he wanted. WE don't kneed to know t details of how he is doing it,all we need to know is that Tobi is doing Something Kakashi can't do... Whetehr is lack of Mastery or Knowledge. That's still a + for Tobi and a - for Kakashi.Quote:Cause it comes from his sharingan eye the one he decided to keep with the rinnengan. Sharingan users have never you Jutsu from there eye unless its a sharngan jutsu.Quote:What do you think the Sharingan is? Kekkai Genkai. Still dosen't change the fact that Sasuke,and Itchi has three element just like Kakashi. Kakashi couldn't copying anything without his Kekkai Genkai,and as i stated before copying technique is something that every sharingan.I guess that's why that don't impress me as much.Quote:Kakashi may not have had certain knowledge on how to gain MS, but its not like you can Gain MS from just traing hard. Its a few special events that need to occur to gain MS, so forgive me for not seeing this as a impressive feat, when there's no training involve to attain it. However, Kakashi did train to master it, which is a impressive feat. If the subject was all about copying jutsu, then i would agree with you, but its not. Even if Uchihas haven't demonstrated the high level elements(which they have) like Kakashi, what does that have to do with Sharingan Mastery? That only proves what a great shinobi Kakashi is, but it have nothing to do with Kakashi being on Tobi's level when comparing the sharingan.Quote:This has nothing to with a battle so it only proves that Kakashi like to use his sharinga to copy techniques. Like i explain earlier, One don't gain MS form training hard, special events must occur. Tobi haven't experience the special events to attain MS.Quote:The only one can't be proven is the intangibility. The other jutsu ave been shown to come from his eye.Quote:Kkashi is renowned for using the sharingan to COPY jutsu. Maybe we have different categories. MY three is Control Knowledge Jutsu. What are yours? Everything else i've covered in a above post.Quote:Yes unless you have another three catrogries you want to use.Quote:Yes but Every sharingan user can copy techniques, Its one of the main component to the sharingan. Controlling Zabuza or controling the Kyuubi, Controling the Kyuubi is much more impressive. It definitely don't make him more of a master. Tobi has more knowledge about the sharingan, giving him a advantage over Kakashi. example: Izanagi. Don't you think if Kakashi had the knowledge on this jutsu he could perform it? I definitely thanks so, but he don't. That's giving Tobi + and Kakashi a -.Quote:
I will try to cover all the points let me know if I missed anything.
Tobi has showed better techniques than Kakashi, yet to me, it's still undetermined whether that's knowledge from being an Uchiha or just a master of the Sharingan.
Yes the Sharingan is a Kekkai Genkai you missed my point though. My point was to demonstrate Kakashi's mastery in copying techniques to the point were he could use three high level elements. Sasuke and Itachi can use two elements and a Kekkai Genkai, Kekkai Genkai cannot be copied thus my point remains.
On Kakashi attaining MS, we don't know how he gained MS so we can't say what he did or did not do to obtain it.
On the categories for being a a master, I don't completely agree. We are debating, to my knowledge, who has better mastery, that's not to say they are not both masters of the Sharingan.
Essentially my argument boils down to this:
Is the one with the better mastery of the Sharingan the one who already has information on it, who's clan is known for the use of it or the person with no knowledge of it and has surpassed the majority of the Uchiha's clans users, with the exception a minor few.
Kakashi having three elements don't make him be a better sharingan user. A shinobi can't copy affinites.
Manga/databook shows two ways to attain, so its fe to assume Kakashi gain his MS from one of those ways.
I agree they both are masters of the sharingan.I just believe that Tobi is on a higer level.
Tobi has better Mastery mainly because he has shown greater feats, better jutsu,and more Knowledge. Knowledge is the main reason why Kashi is not on Tobi's level.
We are debating if Kakashi can use his sharingan on Tobi's level in a fight (at least on my part).
Last edited by xXan; April 30, 2012 at 03:11 AM.
What kind of level? What level does Tobi have?
Kakashi can do genjutsu (he did it to Zabuza and Root following Naruto), he can copy ninjutsu and apparently taijutsu, and he can predict, if I recall. We saw Tobi use genjutsu on two Root guarding Danzo and I'm assuming he predicted Minato's reflex strike and Raikage's speed blitz punch.
The only difference is that Tobi was able to put Kyuubi in a genjutsu. We never saw Kakashi try that.
In any case, it's gonna be hard for Kakashi and Gai to beat Minato and Jiraiya. Both have good defense, Jiraiya has great offense, and Minato has the speed and reflexes.