Minato and JMan vs Kakashi and Gai

[M3J]

Moderator message by: M3J

Keep it civil.

[xXan]

@Prince Sasuke

My first post was: Kakashi is a good sharingan user, but he is not on the level of Madara,Tobi, Itachi, and Sasuke.
Your response: He is defenetly on Tobi's level as he at least has a MS eye (ignoring the rinnegan).

SO you knew all along what this Conversation was about!! Man up!

At least he has a MS to use a MS jutsu lol. Aparently you like interpretating my words as you like...
Also my response was in context with this fight. I asumed you stated he is not a good user like those dudes and then i stated he is on Tobi's level in CONTEXT with the topic we are in.

I thinki i proving myslef that YOU knew what the conversation was about...... BETTER SHARINGAN MASTERY

In all my posts i told you about using it in a fight... Aparently you kept ignoring it. I admited some times now that Tobi has better information on it...

Controling the Kyuubi's powers,yes. Controling the Kyuubi NO. Tobi made the Kyuubi fight for him, Sasuke can't do that.
cotrol:to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command

Tobi himself had to w8 for the seal to be very weak and close to nonexisting before doing anything. Kyuubi direcly compared Sasuke's ability to Madara.

Also i know what control is. A cop that puts handcuffs on a subject is controling him. Also you have some 4 other examples of control where you copy pasted that. Interesting you copy/pasted only that. Reading this "to eliminate or prevent the flourishing or spread of: to control a forest fire" would have been a better example.

The Tobi Jutsu is 'bloddy evidents' that it comes from his eye..... Name one sharingan that use a Jutsu from his eye that didn't come from the sharingan?? double standard

Heh? Name 1 Jin that could go Biju mode like Naruto, using a shield and not the Biju himself forming from the user in the form of flesh and what not. Just because nobody else has done it does not mean its not possible. You have no idea what Kishi plans to do with Tobi and his jutsus. Its not double standards, its an unknown. Up to the moment Kishi makes a databook or states something in the manga we can theorize, asume or form hypothesis but its not fact.
Who would belive some chapters back that Naruto could go full biju mode by using a shield in the form of Kyuubi? If i would tell you that before it was showed you would tell me i am nuts.
How about shooting a bijudama trough your hands... Who else can do that? If you can show me 1 more example of the above things i will show you an Uchiha doing what you asked.

I was being nice my saying double standard, but the truth is your just a hypocrite... nothing else to say.

Nice... I am civilized with you and this is what i get. Now if you can't keep it civil in your future posts i will not be replying. Just because somebody does not agrees with your oppinions and had diferent oppinions (right or wrong) does not give you the right to insult them.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/363/11 The eyes have sharingan tomes and even Suigestu notice is was Genjutsu just by looking at manda's eyes.

Look at it. Its an reflection like image on the eye. The eye itself is identical to how it was before. The iris has not changed in any way. Compare that to this:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/501/8
The iris itself changed, it made physical changes in the eye. Your example just had a image reflected (no idea what other word to use) on the eye. The eye itself had NO physical changes done to it.

My point is don't assume its only one way to gain something. This Manga is notorious for multiple ways of gaining a new feat.

And untill that is showed don't you think we need to use the jutsu as SHOWED to work in the manga, as Kishi showed it to work in his databooks? You whant to asume its diferent based on what? You need some evidence for that. I am not going to asume the summoning is diferent with no arguments.

When have a sharingan user use a Jutsu from his eye that wasn't Sharingan related??? Come on.

Just because it never happened before it does not mean it must be like all the other jutsus.
I never stated its defenetly not so, i even told you its the more likely hypothesis but its not fact up to the point Kishi showes us what it is. With his databooks or manga.

Take genjutsu. Its genjutsu just chanled trough the eye for more power. I gues it can be considered a sharingan ability as you can't do it the same way if you don't have a sharingan but you can do genjutsu even with no sharingan but diferently. Same thing could be here. How much is this a feat for the sharingan its an unknown.

Tell me why he can't fight off Tsukuyomi?

Kakashi? Because he does not have Uchiha blood. You need 3 things:

1-Uchiha blood.
2-Sharingan.
3-Master level skill in sharingan.

Kakashi had 2 and 3(Itachi stated about the blood thing only). But i faill to see what you whant to point out with this?

Sasuke had Sharingan + Uchiha blood but still had to activate CS to give himself a boost to bust out and even then we can't even be sure Itachi never planed that to happen as killing Sasuke in genjutsu was defenetly not his plan (or even win that fight). That entire fight was planed.

My arguement has been proven. The only reason we continue is cause you don't want to admitt your defeat, and continue to make the subject(no topic) about something other then what it is.

I like how people keep stating my arguments have been proven when its just there oppinions... For you arguments to be proven you need manga pics or panels or the databook stating how Tobi's jutsus work, up to that point you can only asume and have an oppinion. The diference is i keep telling you we don't know and you keep telling me they work like this and you don't have the evidence to back it up.
The rest on what you belive to make Tobi better then Kakashi with his sharingan is just an oppinion just as mine.

Let's see, Kakashi has:

1-The ability to copy over 1000 jutsus (Tobihas not even 1, that he showed).
2-Genjutsu in a fight to trick Zabuza like a punk (Tobi never showed genjutsu in a fight).
3-MS eye (Tobi never showed that).
4-Kamui that is close to 1 shoots 90% of this manga and insane defence.
5-Countering jutsus at the same time they are used and with the same jutsu.
6-Information about MS genjutsu even in part 1 (but he had no idea Itachi can use it on THAT level).
7-The ability to deduce how stuff works and was complimented by Itachi and even TOBI for his skill and eye.

Tobi has:
1-Izanagi (defensive genjutsu) that would last for a blink of an eye if not for Hashirama's cells.
2-Asumtion that warping is a sharingan jutsu.
3-More information on how the sharingan works.
4-Ability to control the Kyuubi (not that this would help him in anything aside from controling the Kyuubi itself).
Do you have anything else? If not my oppinion is that Kakashi is defenetly on Tobi's level.

PS. If you whant to reply do so civilized or i will not be addresing it. If you don't whant to respect me and my oppinions at least do so for the mods that asked you that. Thank you.

[Prince Sasuke]

xXan

At least he has a MS to use a MS jutsu lol. Aparently you like interpretating my words as you like...
Also my response was in context with this fight. I asumed you stated he is not a good user like those dudes and then i stated he is on Tobi's level in CONTEXT with the topic we are in.

Quite frankly it dosen't matter whether you are talking about a fight between the two ,or just sharingan Mastery, (which was previous obvious to me) in both cases Tobi stomps.

In all my posts i told you about using it in a fight... Aparently you kept ignoring it. I admited some times now that Tobi has better information on it...

There are still two other areas we disagree on and that's Control,and Jutsu(sharingan) .... which Tobi stomps.

Tobi himself had to w8 for the seal to be very weak and close to nonexisting before doing anything. Kyuubi direcly compared Sasuke's ability to Madara.

Doesn't matter the circumstance, that's a feat that Kakashi simply can't do.

1-Uchiha blood.
2-Sharingan.
3-Master level skill in sharingan.

Kakashi had 2 and 3(Itachi stated about the blood thing only). But i faill to see what you whant to point out with this?

My point is that Kakashi don't have the three main areas to ever be on Tobi's level. FYI Kakashi definitely didn't have mastery over his sharigan back then.

Sasuke had Sharingan + Uchiha blood but still had to activate CS to give himself a boost to bust out and even then we can't even be sure Itachi never planed that to happen as killing Sasuke in genjutsu was defenetly not his plan (or even win that fight). That entire fight was planed.

Sasuke activated the CS in a Genjutsu,but when he came out of the Genjutsu the CS wasn't activated..... So it never happen, but that's a can ot worms for another day.

Heh? Name 1 Jin that could go Biju mode like Naruto, using a shield and not the Biju himself forming from the user in the form of flesh and what not. Just because nobody else has done it does not mean its not possible. You have no idea what Kishi plans to do with Tobi and his jutsus. Its not double standards, its an unknown. Up to the moment Kishi makes a databook or states something in the manga we can theorize, asume or form hypothesis but its not fact.
Who would belive some chapters back that Naruto could go full biju mode by using a shield in the form of Kyuubi? If i would tell you that before it was showed you would tell me i am nuts.
How about shooting a bijudama trough your hands... Who else can do that? If you can show me 1 more example of the above things i will show you an Uchiha doing what you asked.

Trrible example, No matter how Naruto looks, they all still gain the same upgrade. More and powee,speed and a bijuu bomb.

Nice... I am civilized with you and this is what i get. Now if you can't keep it civil in your future posts i will not be replying. Just because somebody does not agrees with your oppinions and had diferent oppinions (right or wrong) does not give you the right to insult them.

I guess i repharse that wrong... I apologize. What i meant to say is I'm using the word 'double standard', when thats just a much more friendly word. The truth is you are a hypocrite. ( thats not a bad word) Its ok for you say that Tobi has some type of 'connenction',or 'summoning pack' with the Kyuubi without Manga proof, but its not ok for me to Say Tobi's Jutsu is sharingan when it comes from his eye,and no other shinobi(with sharingan) can use Jutsu from his eye without it being from the sharingan.

Look at it. Its an reflection like image on the eye. The eye itself is identical to how it was before. The iris has not changed in any way. Compare that to this:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/501/8
The iris itself changed, it made physical changes in the eye. Your example just had a image reflected (no idea what other word to use) on the eye. The eye itself had NO physical changes done to it.

Sasuke could've use a weaker version, or the Jutsu was wearing off cause Manda was dying.... EVen Suigestu said it was GENJUTSU http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/363/11

And untill that is showed don't you think we need to use the jutsu as SHOWED to work in the manga, as Kishi showed it to work in his databooks? You whant to asume its diferent based on what? You need some evidence for that. I am not going to asume the summoning is diferent with no arguments.

See perfect example of a hypocrite. can say the same exact thing to you. I suspose to believe that you can sommon a Tail beast that is made of PURE CHAKRA (hae no blood) the same way a person can summon a hawk, toad,or dog?? You need some evidence for that... theres your arguement.

Just because it never happened before it does not mean it must be like all the other jutsus.
I never stated its defenetly not so, i even told you its the more likely hypothesis but its not fact up to the point Kishi showes us what it is. With his databooks or manga.

Take genjutsu. Its genjutsu just chanled trough the eye for more power. I gues it can be considered a sharingan ability as you can't do it the same way if you don't have a sharingan but you can do genjutsu even with no sharingan but diferently. Same thing could be here. How much is this a feat for the sharingan its an unknown.

the "connection,orPack you keep mentioning is not any different.

I like how people keep stating my arguments have been proven when its just there oppinions... For you arguments to be proven you need manga pics or panels or the databook stating how Tobi's jutsus work, up to that point you can only asume and have an oppinion. The diference is i keep telling you we don't know and you keep telling me they work like this and you don't have the evidence to back it up.
The rest on what you belive to make Tobi better then Kakashi with his sharingan is just an oppinion just as mine.

Its not an opinion, its a fact. The reason why its a fact cause Kakashi don't have the body/blood to be on Tobi's leve, He can't control the nine tail beast like Tobi can,He don't have Knowledge that Tobi has..... He can't bring himselfback to life like Tobi can....... thats proof.

[vanyar]

In regards to who has the better Sharingan mastery, I think it is evident that Kakashi has shown to be better at using the Sharingan. He is actually famous for his use of his Sharingan that's why he earned the moniker "Copy Ninja Kakashi". Even without inside knowledge of the Uchiha clan he gained Tomoe and eventually Mangekou Sharingan, creating Kamui in the process.

What's in Tobi's favour is his ability to control Kurama, yet we don't know exactly what this entails, and if Tobi really is an Uchiha or connected to Madara in some way he could easily have knowledge of how to perform this technique. That does not indicate mastery just knowledge.

Now if any of the information I used is inaccurate let me know but from what we have seen Kakashi has shown better mastery of the Sharingan than Tobi.

[Prince Sasuke]

The only thing that Kakashi has done with Sharingan that tobi hasn't shown is copying jutsu.... which is a key component of the sharingan..... Meaning all sharingan users can do it. Tobi has more knowledge,better jutsu (and thats with just the basic sharingan, and more control. Kakashi only can compete in one are and that's Jutsu. Even i was to say Kakashi has better jutsu,(which he don't) he would still lost two out of three.... Making my statement correct.

[vanyar]

The only thing that Kakashi has done with Sharingan that tobi hasn't shown is copying jutsu....

Not quite right. Kakashi has shown not to just copy jutsu but to use his eye techniques to manipulate an opponent, in this case he manipulated Zabuza into believing he could read his mind.

Also Kakashi has trained his Sharingan enough to attain Mangekou Sharingan and create an MS technique, something to my knowledge Tobi has not done.

which is a key component of the sharingan..... Meaning all sharingan users can do it

.

Agreed, yet Kakashi is the only Sharingan user that we have seen wielding three high level elements.

Tobi has more knowledge,better jutsu (and thats with just the basic sharingan, and more control.

- Knowledge does not necessarily indicate mastery.
- Better Sharingan ninjutsu? can you elaborate?
- Other than the Rinnegan he has only used Sharingan to my knowledge so what do you mean by and that's just the basic sharingan
- Can you elaborate on what you mean by control.

Kakashi only can compete in one are and that's Jutsu. Even i was to say Kakashi has better jutsu,(which he don't) he would still lost two out of three.... Making my statement correct.

Incorrect, the only thing Tobi has shown that Kakashi cannot do to my knowledge is control Kurama, this does not demonstrate better Sharingan mastery just different knowledge.

Better still in my opinion, mastery would come from not having Uchiha knowledge on the Sharingan and still attaining more Tomoe in his eye and then eventually gaining Mangekou Sharingan and creating Kamui in the process. All the while gaining fame as someone who has copied over 1000 techniques and from what we have seen in the manga he can utilise them very well, as I have stated no Uchiha that I know of has ever shown to use three high level elemental techniques.

[M3J]

Is this Kakashi vs. Tobi or Kakashi and Gai vs. Minato and Jiraiya?

[Prince Sasuke]

Not quite right. Kakashi has shown not to just copy jutsu but to use his eye techniques to manipulate an opponent, in this case he manipulated Zabuza into believing he could read his mind.

Also Kakashi has trained his Sharingan enough to attain Mangekou Sharingan and create an MS technique, something to my knowledge Tobi has not done.

Maybe so, but Tobi took control of Konan, and the Kyuubi. Which is more impressive to you?
also true, but Tob's 3 tomoe sharingan is been Master to due abilities that make Kakashi MS useless against him.

Agreed, yet Kakashi is the only Sharingan user that we have seen wielding three high level elements.

Not true. Sasuke and itachi has three elements of there own.

Knowledge does not necessarily indicate mastery.
- Better Sharingan ninjutsu? can you elaborate?
- Other than the Rinnegan he has only used Sharingan to my knowledge so what do you mean by and that's just the basic sharingan
- Can you elaborate on what you mean by control.

Knowledge is definitely one of the categories. Tobi knows much more about the sharingan then Kakashi,so he could never be on Tobi's level, if Kakashi don't know what to do next to attain another level.
They both have basic sharingan abilites, and Kakashi has one MS Jutsu. Tobi has space time, intangible, warping, and Izanagi. Thats what i mean by better sharingan Jutsu.
I mean kakashi don't have the body to control the Sharingan as good as Tobi. Tobi can control the Kyuubi with 3 tome sharingan, Kakashi would need MS, and that's still questionable.

Incorrect, the only thing Tobi has shown that Kakashi cannot do to my knowledge is control Kurama, this does not demonstrate better Sharingan mastery just different knowledge.

As i stated several times. Knowledge,control,and Jutsu are the categories. NO debate about Knowledge. Control... tobi controls the Kyuubi. That should be enough. Jutsu, Tobi has the most hax sharingan Jutsu out of all sharingan users. Why do you think he kept one sharingan eye?

Better still in my opinion, mastery would come from not having Uchiha knowledge on the Sharingan and still attaining more Tomoe in his eye and then eventually gaining Mangekou Sharingan and creating Kamui in the process. All the while gaining fame as someone who has copied over 1000 techniques and from what we have seen in the manga he can utilise them very well, as I have stated no Uchiha that I know of has ever shown to use three high level elemental techniques

Its impossible to master something if you don't know every little detail about it. AS i stated above, Sasuke and Itachi has three elements of there own..... Besides that really has nothing to do with Mastering the sharingan... its one of the basic skills that comes with the sharingan.

[Kay3795]

Both Minato and Jiraiya are simply in a different league to Kakashi and Gai. In fact the gap in power/skill is so huge that both characters would solo this on their own

---------- Post added at 05:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------

And what is all this talk about Kakashi & Tobi being equal in their sharingan usage?

[vanyar]

@Prince Sasuke

Maybe so, but Tobi took control of Konan, and the Kyuubi. Which is more impressive to you?

Tobi used a genjutsu on Konan when she was dying, what is impressive about that? Controlling the Kyuubi is indeed impressive yet we don't know what exactly that entails. It could be Sharingan mastery or it could be just knowledge that top Uchiha are privy too.

but Tob's 3 tomoe sharingan is been Master to due abilities that make Kakashi MS useless against him.

Yes Tobi's abilities are good yet how do we know that his Space-Time jutsu comes from the Sharingan?

Not true. Sasuke and itachi has three elements of there own.

Two elements and a Kekkai Genkai. Kakashi has very high level Lightning, Water and Earth techniques and that's without having a Kekkai Genkai. My point of this was to show Kakashi's mastery of copying techniques to an extent that we have not seen matched in the manga.

Knowledge is definitely one of the categories. Tobi knows much more about the sharingan then Kakashi,so he could never be on Tobi's level, if Kakashi don't know what to do next to attain another level.

I agree knowledge is a necessary component and to me Tobi definitely has more knowledge on the Sharingan than Kakashi, but the reason why I am saying that Kakashi is just as much a master than Tobi is, is because Kakashi upgraded and strengthened his own Sharingan without knowledge privy the Uchiha have, on his own. He became famous as the Copy-Nin and as I have stated no one, even Uchihas have not demonstrated using as much high level elemental techniques that he has.

They both have basic sharingan abilites, and Kakashi has one MS Jutsu. Tobi has space time, intangible, warping, and Izanagi. Thats what i mean by better sharingan Jutsu.

My take on that is:

They both have basic Sharingan abilities yet Kakashi has shown to be more proficient at using his for combat such as copying techniques and manipulating opponents. Yes Kakashi has one MS jutsu and to my knowledge Tobi has none. Tobi has Space-Time, intangibility, warping and yet we don't know if that comes from the Sharingan. You mention Izanagi and better sharingan Jutsu which I completely agree with, Kakashi has shown nothing that can compare with Izanagi, yet I'm debating who is the better Sharingan master rather than who has the better technique and to me that could go to Kakashi since he is renowned for using his Sharingan and upgraded and bettered it without being a a member of The Uchiha Clan and without knowledge the Uchiha have.

Knowledge,control,and Jutsu are the categories. NO debate about Knowledge. Control... tobi controls the Kyuubi. That should be enough. Jutsu, Tobi has the most hax sharingan Jutsu out of all sharingan users. Why do you think he kept one sharingan eye?

Tobi has more knowledge, he knows how to control the Kyuubi, he knows how to use Izanagi. Does this translate to better mastery though? I am by no means certain that Kakashi is more of a master than Tobi, yet from what we have seen no one has shown to be as famous for copying techniques, he manipulated and controlled Zabuza into believing that he could mind read and from being a non Uchiha gaining MS is amazing as only a handful of Uchiha have achieved it. So does Kakashi's lack of inside Uchiha knowledge make him inferior to Tobi or the fact that he has excelled with the Sharingan yet not being an Uchiha make him more of a master?

@Kay3795

Both Minato and Jiraiya are simply in a different league to Kakashi and Gai. In fact the gap in power/skill is so huge that both characters would solo this on their own

Not really, Guy only if he is not in Gate Mode. Kakashi has shown himself to be Kage level so that would put him on the level of Jiraiya and Minato. Base level Guy not so much yet with 7 gates open Jiraiya nor Minato would solo him maybe even the contrary.

[Prince Sasuke]

Tobi used a genjutsu on Konan when she was dying, what is impressive about that? Controlling the Kyuubi is indeed impressive yet we don't know what exactly that entails. It could be Sharingan mastery or it could be just knowledge that top Uchiha are privy too.

Tobi still put Konan in a mind control Genjutsu to get what he wanted. WE don't kneed to know t details of how he is doing it,all we need to know is that Tobi is doing Something Kakashi can't do... Whetehr is lack of Mastery or Knowledge. That's still a + for Tobi and a - for Kakashi.

Yes Tobi's abilities are good yet how do we know that his Space-Time jutsu comes from the Sharingan?

Cause it comes from his sharingan eye the one he decided to keep with the rinnengan. Sharingan users have never you Jutsu from there eye unless its a sharngan jutsu.

Two elements and a Kekkai Genkai. Kakashi has very high level Lightning, Water and Earth techniques and that's without having a Kekkai Genkai. My point of this was to show Kakashi's mastery of copying techniques to an extent that we have not seen matched in the manga.

What do you think the Sharingan is? Kekkai Genkai. Still dosen't change the fact that Sasuke,and Itchi has three element just like Kakashi. Kakashi couldn't copying anything without his Kekkai Genkai,and as i stated before copying technique is something that every sharingan.I guess that's why that don't impress me as much.

I agree knowledge is a necessary component and to me Tobi definitely has more knowledge on the Sharingan than Kakashi, but the reason why I am saying that Kakashi is just as much a master than Tobi is, is because Kakashi upgraded and strengthened his own Sharingan without knowledge privy the Uchiha have, on his own. He became famous as the Copy-Nin and as I have stated no one, even Uchihas have not demonstrated using as much high level elemental techniques that he has.

Kakashi may not have had certain knowledge on how to gain MS, but its not like you can Gain MS from just traing hard. Its a few special events that need to occur to gain MS, so forgive me for not seeing this as a impressive feat, when there's no training involve to attain it. However, Kakashi did train to master it, which is a impressive feat. If the subject was all about copying jutsu, then i would agree with you, but its not. Even if Uchihas haven't demonstrated the high level elements(which they have) like Kakashi, what does that have to do with Sharingan Mastery? That only proves what a great shinobi Kakashi is, but it have nothing to do with Kakashi being on Tobi's level when comparing the sharingan.

They both have basic Sharingan abilities yet Kakashi has shown to be more proficient at using his for combat such as copying techniques and manipulating opponents. Yes Kakashi has one MS jutsu and to my knowledge Tobi has none.

This has nothing to with a battle so it only proves that Kakashi like to use his sharinga to copy techniques. Like i explain earlier, One don't gain MS form training hard, special events must occur. Tobi haven't experience the special events to attain MS.

Tobi has Space-Time, intangibility, warping and yet we don't know if that comes from the Sharingan.

The only one can't be proven is the intangibility. The other jutsu ave been shown to come from his eye.

You mention Izanagi and better sharingan Jutsu which I completely agree with, Kakashi has shown nothing that can compare with Izanagi, yet I'm debating who is the better Sharingan master rather than who has the better technique and to me that could go to Kakashi since he is renowned for using his Sharingan and upgraded and bettered it without being a a member of The Uchiha Clan and without knowledge the Uchiha have.

Kkashi is renowned for using the sharingan to COPY jutsu. Maybe we have different categories. MY three is Control Knowledge Jutsu. What are yours? Everything else i've covered in a above post.

Tobi has more knowledge, he knows how to control the Kyuubi, he knows how to use Izanagi. Does this translate to better mastery though?

Yes unless you have another three catrogries you want to use.

I am by no means certain that Kakashi is more of a master than Tobi, yet from what we have seen no one has shown to be as famous for copying techniques, he manipulated and controlled Zabuza into believing that he could mind read and from being a non Uchiha gaining MS is amazing as only a handful of Uchiha have achieved it. So does Kakashi's lack of inside Uchiha knowledge make him inferior to Tobi or the fact that he has excelled with the Sharingan yet not being an Uchiha make him more of a master?

Yes but Every sharingan user can copy techniques, Its one of the main component to the sharingan. Controlling Zabuza or controling the Kyuubi, Controling the Kyuubi is much more impressive. It definitely don't make him more of a master. Tobi has more knowledge about the sharingan, giving him a advantage over Kakashi. example: Izanagi. Don't you think if Kakashi had the knowledge on this jutsu he could perform it? I definitely thanks so, but he don't. That's giving Tobi + and Kakashi a -.

[vanyar]

@Prince Sasuke

I will try to cover all the points let me know if I missed anything.

Tobi has showed better techniques than Kakashi, yet to me, it's still undetermined whether that's knowledge from being an Uchiha or just a master of the Sharingan.

Yes the Sharingan is a Kekkai Genkai you missed my point though. My point was to demonstrate Kakashi's mastery in copying techniques to the point were he could use three high level elements. Sasuke and Itachi can use two elements and a Kekkai Genkai, Kekkai Genkai cannot be copied thus my point remains.

On Kakashi attaining MS, we don't know how he gained MS so we can't say what he did or did not do to obtain it.

On the categories for being a a master, I don't completely agree. We are debating, to my knowledge, who has better mastery, that's not to say they are not both masters of the Sharingan.

Essentially my argument boils down to this:

Is the one with the better mastery of the Sharingan the one who already has information on it, who's clan is known for the use of it or the person with no knowledge of it and has surpassed the majority of the Uchiha's clans users, with the exception a minor few.

[Prince Sasuke]

@Prince Sasuke

I will try to cover all the points let me know if I missed anything.

Tobi has showed better techniques than Kakashi, yet to me, it's still undetermined whether that's knowledge from being an Uchiha or just a master of the Sharingan.

Yes the Sharingan is a Kekkai Genkai you missed my point though. My point was to demonstrate Kakashi's mastery in copying techniques to the point were he could use three high level elements. Sasuke and Itachi can use two elements and a Kekkai Genkai, Kekkai Genkai cannot be copied thus my point remains.

On Kakashi attaining MS, we don't know how he gained MS so we can't say what he did or did not do to obtain it.

On the categories for being a a master, I don't completely agree. We are debating, to my knowledge, who has better mastery, that's not to say they are not both masters of the Sharingan.

Essentially my argument boils down to this:

Is the one with the better mastery of the Sharingan the one who already has information on it, who's clan is known for the use of it or the person with no knowledge of it and has surpassed the majority of the Uchiha's clans users, with the exception a minor few.

Weather its being a Uchiha or just having more Knowledge is still two advantages.

Kakashi having three elements don't make him be a better sharingan user. A shinobi can't copy affinites.

Manga/databook shows two ways to attain, so its fe to assume Kakashi gain his MS from one of those ways.

I agree they both are masters of the sharingan.I just believe that Tobi is on a higer level.

Tobi has better Mastery mainly because he has shown greater feats, better jutsu,and more Knowledge. Knowledge is the main reason why Kashi is not on Tobi's level.

[xXan]

@M3J

We are debating if Kakashi can use his sharingan on Tobi's level in a fight (at least on my part).

@Prince Sasuke

Quite frankly it dosen't matter whether you are talking about a fight between the two ,or just sharingan Mastery, (which was previous obvious to me) in both cases Tobi stomps.

Tobi would stomp Kakashi because of his other HAX jutsus... Just use Tobi vs X random guy and only his sharingan jutsus. Then do the same with Kakashi.
Its obvious Tobi stomps... How about we argue who can use his eyes better in a fight, Neji or Naruto and then i can state Naruto stomps Neji...

There are still two other areas we disagree on and that's Control,and Jutsu(sharingan) .... which Tobi stomps.

The control is only over the Kyuubi. Its a very debateble feat that can only be used on the Kyuubi. Is not going to help him much when he fights Raikage for instance now would it?
Also in sharingan jutsus he defenetly does not stomp even if we accept his warping as fact. Tobi can warp, Kakashi can warp to. At best its a tie as both have very good ways to use there jutsus.

Doesn't matter the circumstance, that's a feat that Kakashi simply can't do.

Not that would help him to beat (for example) Minato and JMan now would it? Now the mind control genjutsu Kakashi used to beat Zabuza would defenetly help Tobi beat Minato now don't you think so? At the very least it could grant Tobi an oppening.

My point is that Kakashi don't have the three main areas to ever be on Tobi's level. FYI Kakashi definitely didn't have mastery over his sharigan back then.

His body thing only effects his ability to spam his MS jutsus and keep his sharingan on. Of course to stop Itachi's ms Jutsus is also another one. Now Kakashi can defenetly use his sharingan an entire fight and use his Kamui some 3 times so its not that bad. Now asuming he does not run into Itachi its not going to be that bad and even vs Itachi when he had his second fight he actualy was able to overcome the genjutsu(by avoding eye contact and what not) and trick Itachi.

Back then Kakashi knew about MS and about Tsukiyomi. Its not that bad if you ask me. Also Itachi made it clear that he could not brake it as he was missing the Uchiha blood and not the skill. The databook state 1 needs those 3 to bust out and considering Itachi stated only about the blood it makes sense that Kakashi skill was defenetly up there. Yes he had no idea about some of the top tier MS/EMS jutsus but his sharingan skill was good enough.

Sasuke activated the CS in a Genjutsu,but when he came out of the Genjutsu the CS wasn't activated..... So it never happen, but that's a can ot worms for another day.

Think about it. Why was he able to brake out only after activating CS lvl2? But i gues it is debateble. Naruto himself fighting in his head was able to form diferent techs that worked like real life ones only in his head. I don't remember Naruto using FRS in real life when he was hitting the Kyuubi but i don't think you would argue he had no need for that to beat the Kyuubi right?

I guess i repharse that wrong... I apologize. What i meant to say is I'm using the word 'double standard', when thats just a much more friendly word. The truth is you are a hypocrite. ( thats not a bad word) Its ok for you say that Tobi has some type of 'connenction',or 'summoning pack' with the Kyuubi without Manga proof, but its not ok for me to Say Tobi's Jutsu is sharingan when it comes from his eye,and no other shinobi(with sharingan) can use Jutsu from his eye without it being from the sharingan.

Let's just jump over insults shall we? What is the point to start trowing aroung insults? If i don't insult you even after you insulted me (yes its an insult)... Let's just have a civilized debate shall we?

You still don't get it. There is no double standard.

We have evidence from the manga what and how is Kuchiyose no Jutsu is achieved. Then we have the databook stating the same thing. Then we have over here:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/502/3
The same pattern as this:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/092/17

Only obviously bigger as what Tobi was summoning was bigger.

So in 1 case we have clear manga evidence of hos a jutsus works and not only manga evidence but also Databook evidence. On your example we have an unknown jutsus that comes from the hole in his mask with absolutly no information on how it works. Tobi even has his own special dimension. That is why i keep stating we don't have enough evidence to state it as fact, he is not even using a MS eye to do it. Its the most likely hypothesis but its not fact. Again i am not stating its defenetly not so, i state we don't have enough evidence to call it as fact.

Sasuke could've use a weaker version, or the Jutsu was wearing off cause Manda was dying.... EVen Suigestu said it was GENJUTSU http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/363/11

Read again what i told you. What Sasuke used WAS a genjutsu... The diference is that Tobi's control over the Kyuubi made physical changes in the eye and Sasuke's genjutsu did not. Read again what i told you:

Look at it. Its an reflection like image on the eye. The eye itself is identical to how it was before. The iris has not changed in any way. Compare that to this:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/501/8
The iris itself changed, it made physical changes in the eye. Your example just had a image reflected (no idea what other word to use) on the eye. The eye itself had NO physical changes done to it.

See perfect example of a hypocrite. can say the same exact thing to you. I suspose to believe that you can sommon a Tail beast that is made of PURE CHAKRA (hae no blood) the same way a person can summon a hawk, toad,or dog?? You need some evidence for that... theres your arguement.

We have the jutsu name, we have the same pattern in the summoning signs on the ground and yes Biju's do have blood...Here:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/566/12
Look at Bee's injury. The chakra takes the form of a bood. It replicates blood, flesh and what not. They even feel pain.

Now if you belive a jutsu works diferently then all the other jutsus showed in this manga, how it is showed to work in this manga and how the databook state a jutsu works then YOU need to provide eivdence of that.

My argument stands.

the "connection,orPack you keep mentioning is not any different.

I have clear evidence for that, from the manga and databook.

Its not an opinion, its a fact. The reason why its a fact cause Kakashi don't have the body/blood to be on Tobi's leve, He can't control the nine tail beast like Tobi can,He don't have Knowledge that Tobi has..... He can't bring himselfback to life like Tobi can....... thats proof.

He does not need the blood to be on Tobi's league... Is curent Kakashi supperior to Obito? How about the random fodder Uchiha with a sharingan? Kakashi has other feats with his sharingan to make up for that.

Also when was Tobi able to bring himself back to life?

[M3J]

What kind of level? What level does Tobi have?

Kakashi can do genjutsu (he did it to Zabuza and Root following Naruto), he can copy ninjutsu and apparently taijutsu, and he can predict, if I recall. We saw Tobi use genjutsu on two Root guarding Danzo and I'm assuming he predicted Minato's reflex strike and Raikage's speed blitz punch.

The only difference is that Tobi was able to put Kyuubi in a genjutsu. We never saw Kakashi try that.


In any case, it's gonna be hard for Kakashi and Gai to beat Minato and Jiraiya. Both have good defense, Jiraiya has great offense, and Minato has the speed and reflexes.