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7 (Top 5 in Claymore)
Compared to the last few covers, I love this one.
Some say maybe she was too busy fighting, to which I reply if she was fighting so many for so long how come she was shown fresh and not drawn exhausted and next off Galatea did since Isley vs Luciela next to another Ao and 11 ABs but now with her even greater yoki sensing powers just serms to have not noticed the events out west at all. Plus if the fighting happened for so long surely logic should have implied at least one or two villagers die since Galatra and crew where shown to be at wits end fighting that large a number but nope everyone lived.
When you think about it Galatea failed to sense it just so no one would be tempted to go west to back everyone else up just so whenthe org counter attacked the holy city that they'd all be there to defend it with enough forces so no villiagers would die until the warriors out west could run to the rescue and save everyone. Hurry Nakama defeating logic just so nobody has to die... dont we all just love forced writing
Last edited by Ryus; May 30, 2012 at 08:57 AM.
(In other words Im arguing that she could've sensed it, and it would make no sense to jump to her every time something powerful shows up just so you can hear her say that she senses it.)
Heh, tell me about it.....others have argued how boring the Witch's Maw was, since it was essentially just one battle.....but wow, what a battle it was.Quote:
It felt long, it may have felt drawn-out, but the fight against Dauf were awesome for those reasons....you truly got an impression just how much of a struggle it was for everybody.
And the reason it doesn't feel like their is any clear limit, is probably because if often feels now like their isn't....the Abyssal's have lost their feeling of omnipotence and are just another spot on the power-level chart (Priscilla is next)...it's not clear-cut as it was in the past, and now anybody can seemingly grow to incredible heights.
Natural growth of the manga, I know...but those black/white days had something to them that I miss.
Everyone knows both Priscilla and The Destroyer are beyond an AO level of power, and next off Galatea could figure out Mitia, Clarice and her power level and compare it to Agatha even with 2 of them on the pill and another hiding their yoki and analyzed it to know the odds where 50/50. So even someone like Galatea whom if she sensed it would have instantly known that what she sensed was well beyond that of an AO. Yet she didn't and nothing makes sense why she failed to notice it. What happened there was just nonsensical in the grand scheme, and likely a major oversight of Yagi's since he was more concerned with panel space than covering every detail that should have happened.
So in other words we all know that Galatea has the ability to sense it, but the plot didnt call for her to sense it therefore it basically seems like she didn't.
Cynthia, Yuma, and Clare where the ones to really struggle in Destroyer arc... Helen and Deneve didn't have a hard time to the end and figured the clear path out of the impossible situation and with the Hellcats, Clare saved there asses but they pulled their own weight too so: struggle, yes; STRUGGLE AGAINT INSANE ODDS, no. So yes, they didn't really struggle as hard as the others... throw on top of it Dr. Deneve and Helen not making many jokes/getting in trouble and it came off a bit over the top and lame and out of character. Yes, not everyone will agree fully but the point is valid.
The rebels came back from death, your argument there is invalid. Since once death has no meaning ones struggles no longer have any meaning either. I died, hit my reset button for me.
^Now there is a series that has both Nakama and death in a wonderful balance. (and like Claymore no main characters die but no one reading it cares and still finds it suspenseful, yet Claymore of late isn't suspenseful in the slightest... everyone called how the ZAO fights would end)Quote:
Last edited by Ryus; May 30, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
Mmm.....I don't know Ryus....I feel it's sort of subjective - when it comes to Claire, Helen and Deneve fighting against the Hellcats, I immediately got a flashback back to Pieta and I feel that was the whole point of that scene....
I feel the reason it may feel like the characters aren't going against impossible odds, even if they are, has more to do with how the story is becoming nowadays (less suspenseful, and less everything else)....I totally agree with how Cynthia and Yuma were the ones specifically to make me worry the most for them; because we saw their struggle specifically, we saw Cynthia falling part, we saw her confess about her depression...
All and all, that whole arc was very choppy - you may argue that Yagi only shows enough to hint what happened, and leaves it to us to piece things together ourselves with the minimal info he provides and our imagination, but their is no doubt whatsoever that, lately, it's been really working against him.....Cassandra's flashback chapter for instance as largely just black panals with text on it.....I understand this style is how it's always been, but it's starting to feel like laziness lately.
All our feelings lately are just that, feelings....a collection that has slowly begun to feel the way it does overtime because of liking/disliking certain things, like Isley's death (which many feel is where it all started) for whatever reason, and then it slowly became our feelings today - our annoyance at Dr.Deneve, Yagi becoming more conventional, lack of death and dread etc...
What do I feel personally? I do feel the Raciella arc was very choppy....instead of focusing on one group, we get getting little bits and pieces of different groups that made the whole thing feel very rushed and hard to follow....Cynthia and Yuma we felt the most attachment too, and felt they suffered the most, because we SAW them suffer the most - we saw Cynthia fall to pieces and Yuma crying.....Helen, Claire and Deneve may have felt like they suffered against impossible odds, but if that's true....their could have been more to express that; all we saw, was them still standing tall without any sign of wounds or that much of anything happened besides them dominating their opponents....maybe that's not really true, but again....that's what we see. It doesn't help that, again, their is the growing perception of the story becoming more conventional.....Claire was the least likely to die for many reason, and Helen and Deneve can obviously do whatever stupid thought passes through their head (like challenging Isley), and still miraculously survive....the point is, we didn't really fear for them because of all these things - if Yagi wanted us to truly fear for them, he could have shown them getting cut up and massacred like Cynthia was...instead, they keep standing tall and it makes us think they didn't struggle too hard, which goes right with our thoughts on how the story seems to be going lately.
Implication is one thing, but that's why this sort of thing can and does backfire....because Yagi only deliberately shows us so much, and it's easy to feel that he's just being lazy, or we get a certain interpretation about something that wasn't how we are supposed to feel, even if we deep-think it - if we're supposed to get the idea that a group is truly suffering against impossible odds, we need something to show that is how we're supposed to interpret that...maybe the flashback to Pieta was supposed to be that, and them standing tall is a powerful sign at how far they have come since then, but that's my point...that doesn't express that they truly had a hard-time.
Compare it in contrast with the Witch's Maw which I brought up before....that was a whole arc centered around one battle, yet THAT was an example of sheer determination....they truly struggled against Dauf - compare that fight, to how things are now.
There are all sorts of ways and reasons to feel the way you do about anything concerning this story......feelings are simply way too subjective.
Last edited by Shiek927; May 30, 2012 at 05:41 PM.
I've read a lot of people say"once Claire is back, things will get good again." I can't help but start comparing Claymore to Vagabond thanks to this. There is a point in that manga where the main character is gone for a few volumes. While the story maintains the same feel, it's clearly not as good. But finally, after another hiatus, when the main character returned I feel the manga was better than ever; it had grown, but it was still Vagabond. I can only hope Claymore gives me the same feeling.
I can't say Claymore has become a stereotypical shonen though. I mean, it's not like Claire trained for a week and then went off to slay the Abyssals one by one. In fact, the chapters from around 85 -104 were the ones that made me love Claymore more than anything I'd seen at the time. I've read people complain about Priscilla appearing and slaughtering everyone effortlessly. I loved that. Priscilla may not have had a clear limit, but you knew everyone else was below her, and sh*t was about to get real. There was a lot going on with many characters in different areas, and it was chaotic. This was unlike Claymore's usual focus, but I felt it was growth. I don't know why, but I just don't feel what's currently going on as a growth. It feels like Claymore has gone into a stasis and needs something to move it forward again.
I rambled on for longer than planned, sorry.
All this adds up to one plot hole, it's you who is making one plot hole into the end of the world since Yagi must be correct at the end of the day from what I seeing from your comments and what I'm saying just goes against your belief so you're looking for explanations where none don't have a counter point that is a known and undisputed fact. Sorry but it's true. It's you seeing a mountain when I'm just saying Yagi isn't as good as he was and is making a few mistakes here and there. I never inferred how vast and epic this "mountain" is, you are putting words in my mouth. I just said it is there and you are blowing it out of proportion. How many countless series have there been where after they run for a while plot holes appear? What makes Claymore immune? I have a right to expect more and be upset when many many plot holes happen in a short span and the way the series handles a theme drastically changes. Simply put what i may have liked about the series may have changed, I was sold something but one day it changed a bit with a new recipe that I may not necessarily find better. This thread isn't reserved for die hard worshipers of the series and everything Yagi does, we can be critical too.
Look at this one you stated Riful didn't know how strong the Destroyer was but in ch 93 Riful choose to retreat rather than fight it since she believed she would lose if it continued to gain power at it's current rate of growth. The only time Riful didn't know her power was before she awakened and Riful wasn't a yoki sensor. I'm sorry but you are remembering things incorrectly.
And yes, Galatea doesn't have to be able to sense everything on the island perfectly but in this case she simply just should have. It was less distant then what she has previously scened even when next to overwhelming yoki's, her sensing power has greatly improved to the point of being ludicrous, the powers out west where greater than anything she ever sensed before, she wasn't fighting the ABs in pieta yet since the timing doesn't work and even if she was her sensing of Isley vs Luciela implies she would have sensed them through those weaklings anyways (remember only insanely strong yoki jams yoki sensing, as evidenced with Teresa vs Priscilla and Galatea wondering how she sensed Isley vs Luciela with Alicia right next to her), and we had 3 AOs and 2 creatures beyond it fighting (The Destroyers yoki was like an energy wave for crying out loud). Yet Galatea seems to have been surprised by everything that happened out west and no explanation was given to why she didn't sense it.
Look if Galatea was on the eastern most part of the island it would be one thing, if she was injured, or if she was next to someone like Priscilla... but in all cases she wasn't.
You know what I mean and where I'm coming from, if you disagree fine but my pov on this matter is an acceptable pov too.
Look, Pieta was handled wonderfully first with time jump where most/all presumed dead but then after where everyone had to support Miria since she was blaming herself for everyone's death and failing 2/3rds of the warriors. However here, at least at this point, we have got nothing... and I'll be the first to admit we should give yagi a chapter or two to judge him here but for the moment we can also assume due to everyone getting happily healed that the vast majority pulled through. Shouldn't there be at least one person crying over a lost friend? After all Raftela was talking about how jealous she was of friendship, so why haven't we seen this friendship she did yet? Where is the Deneve upset about Undine's death? Or the Clare weeping hysterically over Jean's body? Simply put it hasn't happened yet was implied to have been there. I get it they're all happy to be alive but at least one of them should be having a bitter sweat day...
If Yagi doesn't have a decent number of dead it will diminish ch 116 where the unknown narrator said "...Whatever the case, we became aware of the presence fatally late". 23 "bodies" where shown... lets see how many of them survive, what do you want to bet it's less then 5 who actually died (and maybe ~10 if you count people who lost a limb too but survived).
Last edited by Ryus; May 30, 2012 at 04:41 PM.
Ok I don't have time to make a long respond because it is 1am and I have to wake up early tomorrow so I will only add this:
Galatea's ability is to sense you from far the problem is the longer the distance the harder it gets to get a clear reading----> meaning that Galatea can sense that there is a huge Yoki in the west but can't tell that this is for this and that is for that unless she memorized the Yoki before this like Alicia, Beth, Riful and Isley as she was easily able to sense their Yoki and know who is fighting who and who died but for her to sense the Destroyer is something near impossible because of the Hellcats which masked the source's Yoki which made her sense many ABs scattered in the land which could've been understood as many ABs with similar Yoki and lots accumulated at a certain place (the destroyer) so this is what could've happened because even when Galatea sensed Lucilla's and Isley's Yoki, she wasn't that sure it was them because she didn't sense their Yoki before that which is different from Alicia and Beth or Riful.
I'm strangely finding it difficult to say something....I mean, if that's how you feel, I can understand that; how you feel about Claymore, or any story, is up to you - I've always tried to not put too much weight into Claire's presence....I neither believe she is the main character, nor that the story has become Miria's...people who think like that are too short-sighted; do I feel the story needs a certain push? People were certainly hoping this arc would be wrapped up quickly, though that may also have to do with how many felt that it was being dragged out.Originally Posted by Project Spirit
My words on growth though were more centered on the power-levels then anything else, though it does go beyond power and through to other things as well....here are some old posts to make examples: (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...ce#post2809332)
I guess the important thing to consider is that, even though Yagi is plainly struggling at times meshing new data with old data, is that the disparity between pre and post-timeskip is in many ways superficial....like with Yoma being able to be killed by human beings, or Yoma being infected humans....in many ways, we've gotten hints that this was gonna happen long before it actually happened...when it finally does happen, we may feel shock and disappointment that stretches on, but in alot of ways, it was going to happen.
Black and white, stark realism, darker and more brutal...there are alot of ways to describe how things were in the pre-timeskip days...what we have now, is in many ways, just an evolution of that.....because it's not like their haven't been all sorts of new things that I personally enjoy - the truth that Yoma are infected humans, to make a very recent example, is one of them.....am I sometimes disappointed that their wasn't that barrier in that Yoma are monsters made from nothing that ordinary humans couldn't beat no matter what? Sometimes yes, but there are also good things about the change as well.
It's like I just said to Ryus.....how we feel, is personal and subjective - I feel story has generally followed a "steady" course (I deliberately put that in quotes), and while it's plain that Yagi isn't perfect, a machine, makes things up as he goes to a relative degree, has trouble meshing new stuff with old stuff etc etc.....I feel their is no huge "This is where Claymore was good, and where it gets bad" line....I love and still love the story, and while we can all feel disappointed for all sorts of reasons, like when our own perception and theories on things, like the characters, turn out wrong, there hasn't been anything that truly makes me feel Yagi has crossed a point-of-no-return.
I don't know, there is alot to say and alot to feel...I guess a goodd thing to remember is that how we feel, is really up to us...it's not Yagi's fault if we end up feeling a certain way because of an interpretation he may not have intended at all.
LOL, take it easy guys...
- The reason why Galatea didn't sense Destroyer even if she was able to sense as far as south ( Isley ) and east ( Alicia and Beth ) is unknown. Maybe she didn't pay attention because of everything that happened in the meantime ( looking after Tabitha, Yoma attack on Rabona ) or maybe it was something else. We will never know that...
- To me at least Claymore did't lost it's "fight for survival" thing as in every new battle fight is more and more desperate, it also stayed in "every next enemy is harder to defeat" track. ( from Chapters 86 to 125 we had bunch of 'epic' battles involving Isley, AF, Destroyer, Riful, Alicia and Beth, Priscilla and 3 Awakened number ones as cherry on a top of a cake. ) Each battle was harder and more brutal, and to came out of all of them losing only Clare ( partially as she is not dead but she is unable to provide any assistance as well ) and maybe several warriors is pretty professional and lucky.
- I also have no problem with this many characters, it was only logical to be large bunch of them as there are still 47 Claymores out there. It is true that some are boring but overall I enjoy them all.
- As for dying part and much of them survived now after the Organization attack ( it would seem so ), I think that will not be like that in the future. Maybe Yagi did that deliberately because of the development of situation regarding Mainland. Maybe when Organization leaders on mainland receive no news from Rimuto and other MiB's and find out that their 'experiments' and loose they might send some task force to deal with the situation, in dealing with them Claymores might suffer great casualties because if mainland faction is so strong to keep the knowledge of other continent secret for so long thye maybe have the power to destroy everything on the island is situation goes out of hand.
But these are just my opinions, we still have along way before we see something big happening again ( beside Clare/Priscilla epic battle if Daae do something with the blub ).