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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Minato has multiple kunai in his belt but no other tags already placed anywhere. No DG seal for Minato.
JMan can't summon Ma/Pa or go into SM.
Minato and JMan can only summon 1 toad each. Minato has Gamabunta and JMan has the frog with that shield he used vs Pein.
Asume Kakashi can use the same genjutsu Sasuke used on Manda.
All of the fighters have as much information on the others as they showed in the manga. Gai can only use up to 7 Gates. Nobody is holding back, bloodlusted fight.
They fight at VOE.
Why is Jiraiya nerfed and can't go in Sage Mode nor summon Ma and Pa?
And why is Kakashi buffed with the mind control genjutsu?
Nevertheless I believe the Jman/Yondaime can take this with some difficulty, since Yondaime is the perfect counter for both Gai and Kakashi:
Kamui would be ineffective against Hiraishin ( like Tobi's warping S/T jutsu ), Hirudora could be redirected just as easily as Yondaime did against the Bijuudama, Yondaime's Hiraishin effectively renders the Sharingan prediction useless and Gai would be forced to go up to 7 Gates from the beginning to stand a chance, since, if he engages Yondaime in taijutsu, Yondaime would mark him and end him. Same with Kakashi. And since Yondaime reacted to an instantaneous punch to the face from Raikage, I believe he can easily react to any of the two, since neither are comparable to Raikage in speed. Except 7 Gates Gai, but even then he is equal at best, and we saw how that turned out. Add to this the fact that neither would survive a Rasengan to the face, and Yondaime pretty much soloes this.
As for the genjutsu issue that will inevitably arise, if Tobi couldn't ensnare Yondaime in a genjutsu, neither will Kakashi, imho.
All the while Jiraiya lets his little pet Yondaime do the fighting, while trapping every once in a while one of the two with his hair jutsu for Yondaime to deal the killing blow.
Like a boss
For balancing purposes.Quote:
He is not buffed, This is done to avoid a long debate if he can do it or not. Personaly i see no reason why not as Sasuke used a normal sharinan genjutsu.Quote:
But it could 1 shoot JMan depending on how it is used.Quote:
No. Minato would need a tag on Kakashi for that to happened. If not its going to be something close to Tobi vs Minato where most of Minato's movements are done with no ST. Minato is going to spread his Kunai but Kakashi is not some idiot to run where they are and Minato would defenetly have to fight at least part of the fight with his normal speed. So Minato could use his ST to launch sneack attacks on Kakashi but its FAR from useless.Quote:
Depends on the range and if he is not distracted by some other factor. Then take into account that this time he does not have a tag miles away to move the blast to. He could move it 2m to the left but it will still blow up doing damage to him. It would be better to just teleport out of the way as stading still to do handseals would be a bad idea for Kakashi to try his genjutsu or Kamui on him.Quote:
Gai is not smart but he is not that stupid. This 2 peeps defenetly know about Minato's ST.Quote:
Wha? After Raikage run some 7-10 meters? Is that what you call instantaneous?Quote:
Why in there right minds would argue that Minato can't react to those 2 lol.Quote:
I think you are giving him way to much credit. At first you state the team win with some dificulty and then you state Minato solos? Also you belive Minato solos but you ask me why i nerfed JMan?Quote:
Kakashi can use genjutsu on Minato at least on the level he used it on Zabuza but Minato would probably be better at figuring out he is in one or what is happening as he is way smarter then Zabuza. Also the above logic is faulty. Tobi does not fight with genjutsu, he never used it even vs Danzou's bodiguards or Konan. This is a man that never ends up using genjutsu in a fight (he used it on Konan when the fight was done and she was on her last leg) but you use it as a feat for Minato's ability to fight genjutsu? Come on.Quote:
Kakashi has a good chanse of killing JMan with a Kamui to the face. As for Minato they can team up on him. Gai would defenetly hit faster and harder then Minato(as long they keep out of reach of those tags). They could replicate Raikage tactic and w8 for him to pop from ST and then hit him before he can counter or just destroy the tags with earth by covering them in that with a huge rock or trow them under water. Also keep in mind that this fight is at VOE where Minato is not going to have a easy time to trow around his tags as they would go underwater.Quote:
Last edited by xXan; April 23, 2012 at 07:37 AM.
Oh well! Poor Jiraiya
Of course, why do you believe I argued only on Yondaime's point of view? Jiraiya would realistically be one-shotted by KamuiQuote:
Unless Kakashi starts with Kamui, which he never did, then Yondaime has all the time in the world to grab a kunai or two.Quote:
Hell he could tag Jiraiya to support him with Hiraishin, and use him as an escape point. The point I tried to make is that Yondaime will not be one-shotted by Kamui like the majority of the Narutoverse, since he has the counter for it.
As for Kakashi not going where Yondaime's kunai are, Yondaime too wouldn't go outside their range, so they would stalemate
Say for some reason Kakashi is tagged, and Yondaime redirects the Hirudora on Kakashi's face.Quote:
Every situation is consequential, of course teleporting the hell out of the way would be better and way less chakra consuming, but I was stating that, on top of dodging, he could also redirect it
True, but outside Taijutsu what does Gai has?Quote:
Same with Kakashi, outside Taijutsu and close-range ninjutsu he has Kamui and nothing else.
Close to it, since we saw how fast Raikage is.Quote:
And Yondaime reacted to it
After reading that Yondaime would be defeated by a Hyuuga, I expect everythingQuote:
They are part of a team, and soloing doesn't mean stomping.Quote:
Yondaime can do it by himself, with difficulty, since Gai and Kakashi aren't pushovers.
As for Jiraiya, I asked just for asking lol
Kakashi fought one time only with Genjutsu, after having long, long stares with Zabuza.Quote:
They did 44 seals while staring at the other, would Yondaime to the same, considered also that he knows generally how the Sharingan works? Tobi did a genjutsu to Konan by simply looking at her in the eye, the fact that he never used it doesn't disprove the fact that he can, since he showed it, and it is one of his powers ( even Kabuto commented on it while explaining the Edo Tensei ).
It simply proves it is not that easy to do a genjutsu while moving at high speed, like those two fought. Since of Yondaime we only saw 1 or 2 fights, and one of said fights was against one of the strongest Uchiha and Sharingan user in history, I will go on what the manga showed.
It is the closest at what we can have on the whole Yondaime/genjutsu subject
Don't forget that Yondaime can mark at will everything, that he cleaved with a meager kunai Bee's tentacle and that he is not forced to go on the offensive, rather waiting for Kakashi and Gai to attack would be better, since it is his style of fighting.Quote:
As for him popping out, that theory has some flaws imho:
- they would force Yondaime to use Hiraishin, and only their biggest jutsu would
- Yondaime can reappear on any tag, and unless they have Raikage's enhanced reflex and ultra-speed, they wouldn't be able to do anything about it. And even then, Yondaime proved to be superior
- Using their big jutsus leave them exhausted, and so wide open
Also don't forget, Yondaime could, theorically, save Jman by teleporting him out of kamui's way, if he tagged him beforehand.
Dunno, I can't see Gai and Kakashi winning unless they got lucky, which can happen, of course
That was not about Kamui, read it again. It was about the usefulness of the sharingan.Quote:
If he tags Kakashi that would not be needed.Quote:
Gai has some long range moves and supported by Kakashi from a diferent direction they could get a shoot in expecialy considering Kakashi is smart as hell and he could go with a clone to. Now i am not stating they will get Minato but who knows.Quote:
Minato reacted to Raikage after that man run that distance. Personaly i don't belive Gai is that fast even in 7 gates but if he was he could smash Minato down before he could counter expecialy with Kakashi there for backup.Quote:
Only if he goes in with no tags and the Hyuuga would get off that chakra points move (forgot its name) but he would have to be a moron to do that.Quote:
As we know you don't need 44 seals of time to cast genjutsu, you only need a simple fast look, we have ample evidence of that like Sasuke doing it to deidara from a huge distance, with the corner of his eye and at hight speed.Quote:
Madara placed Konan in genjutsu when she was finished and she could not dispel it or do anything about it. Konohamaru could beat up Naruto if Naruto was almost dead and in a coma. Tobi never ever used his genjutsu in combat, perhaps its to weak and people can bust out easy, i don't know. If that was Itachi and not Tobi then yes. Tobi has NO in combat genjutsu feats even vs slower targets like Danzou's bodyguards.
Consider the fact that not even Danzou's bodiguards where not stoped by genjutsu or even effected by it and they looked for a good deal of time at Tobi.
Also after finding out Tobi is not Madara the strongest sharingan user thing does not apply. Tobi does not even have MS. Defenetly not one of the most powerfull Uchiha or sharingan user in the manga. No Amaterasu, no MS genjutsu and no Susano. How can you say that?
Asuming what you stated above this is not a win for Minato and defenetly he does not solos as it is a draw. He would just w8 in some corner with his tags for the other to attack.Quote:
But it would be logical for you to argue how would Minato get the 2 of them there as me stating Minato would be forced to enter neutral grounds (where no tags are present) its something else then stating they would need to enter Minato's favored ground. One its neutral and the other favors Minato. So Minato should be the one attacking to avoid a draw if you ask me.
-Gai with his speed in 7 gates should be enough.Quote:
-This time we have 2 people that can create even close to look from multiple directions and use multiple attacks at the same time. Also Minato was never showed as superior to that tactic as he avoid going for Raikage completly.
-Yes if Gai goes 7 gates and they don't finish it fast after that they are probably dead.
Minato can't do that. He first needs to teleport to JMan and then teleport with JMan and he would be dead by then considering the speed of warping (arrow trick).Quote:
Also as i said before, they are fighting in a place where there is a lake, so Minato's is going to have very limited places where to put his tags/kunais.
Last edited by xXan; April 23, 2012 at 10:53 AM.
Jiraiya wouldn't technically be one-shotted. Kakashi has not been able to do that, although theoretically he should because of his improved aim. But, Jiraiya could dodge it, misdirect it, or be saved by Minato. I don't think Kakashi will use Kamui instantly as that'd use up too much chakra, if I assumed right.
Hiraishin doesn't necessarily make Sharingan useless. As long as Kakashi knows or can deduce where Minato will appear, he can still predict Minato's moves and react in time.
Kakashi and Gai will definitely have trouble with Hiraishin though, depending on how Minato sets up his tag/s. Gai should be able to take on Jiraiya though.
Minato solos, I definitely don't care for Minato at all, but kakashi and Gai can't beat him. Kakashi is a good sharingan user, but he is not on the level of Madara,Tobi, Itachi, and Sasuke.
Individually, if they fought this like two 1v1's, this fight is pretty even, but team Jiraiya will win because their skills are more versatile and better suited for helping each other and exploiting openings. Imagine Jiraiya carrying a hiraishin tag. Minato can fly in for assistance or double team at any instance. That's going to be really hard to overcome in a team battle.
Last edited by chilibun; April 24, 2012 at 12:37 AM.
Minato doesn't solos, He is tough, but Kakashi is a dude who can set up a counter for Pain, and now he is fighting someone whose skills he knows very well, while Minato doesn't know about Kakashi arsenal aside from Raikiri.
And 8 gate guy is probably as fast as Raikage, if not more. But it would be self-sacrifice. But the duo could take on Minato, but since J-Man is on the ring, I bet that Minato/J-Man would win. But none of them can solo this duo.
Tobi defenetly has better information about the sharingan but that does not mean Kakashi is not on his level when it comes to sharingan as he has some other advantage, MS.
Also at least Kakashi used a genjutsu in battle, Tobi never used 1 in battle. Only when Konan was finished and she could not defened herself.
The only thing that puts Tobi ahead if you ask me its the use if Izanagi but still Kakashi should be on his level even if Tobi is ahead.
I will cut up the post, so we don't do kilometric responses to each other lol
As for Gai's long range move, the only ones are Asukujaku and Hirudora, both dodgable with Hiraishin.
As for Kakashi's interference, what jutsu he has in long range apart Kamui that would be effective?
We saw how fast is Raikage with the Shunshin, and again Gai would have to go to 7 gates up first, and even then he would evade immediately since he isn't as dumb as engaging a guy which opened 7 gates in close range unless he takes him by surprise with one of his kunaisQuote:
Well duh, every ninja that isn't a Jinchuuriki would lose against a Hyuuga without chakra.Quote:
And Yondaime can mark at will, like he showed when he marked Tobi and Bee, so even without kunai he would have the advantage, since he would parry a blow, mark the guy, and then Hiraishin with a Rasengan to the face
Sasuke, not Kakashi.Quote:
We know that Sasuke Sharingan > Itachi Sharingan ( both Tobi and Oro commented on it ) which in turn is >>>>> Kakashi's by manga feats.
And when any Uchiha that isn't Madara will show to be able to genjutsu a perfect Jinchuuriki like Yagura or Kyuubi, then I will consider them as equal as Tobi.
As for Tobi not using genjutsu, he showed to be able to do it with a stare, like any other Uchiha did.
Why can't ppl accept that maybe, just maybe, isn't that easy to ensnare an opponent into a genjutsu? Again we saw a battle between an Uchiha ( or someone who has a strong 3-tomoe Sharingan ) and Yondaime, and Yondaime wasn't caught by a genjutsu. So it is safe to assume that taking Yondaime into a normal ocular genjutsu isn't that easy, since Tobi ensnared Kyuubi with just a glance.
Kakashi hasn't Itachi's Tsukuyomi either, so his chances are really low. Not only that, but you claim to know Tobi's fighting style when he showed only 1 fight against other opponents, and he blitzed them easily.
How that proves what Tobi can do?
It is circular logic, you said that Yondaime should do it, I could say Kakashi and Gai should do it. He scatters the kunai around into a large area since VOTE is pretty large, so the field becomes his advantage. He can mark a rock, he can mark his opponents, he can mark even Jiraiya.Quote:
Seems to me that he has the field advantage no matter what. Unless Kakashi and Gai flees, ending into a draw
-In power yes. In speed? Maybe, I dunno. We should see if Raikage can be compared to Gai. Considering what you said and that Tsunade thought that Naruto, backed up with Kyuubi's chakra, was awesome as being as fast as Raikage, I doubt itQuote:
-Yondaime came on top against everyone he fought so far. Him being outsmarted by Kakashi and Gai is laughable imho. While both are smart, I consider Yondaime on Itachi's level in cunning and smartness
-Yep, and it is only chance to win, so if he fails, the team fails
We saw Kakashi instantly warping little objects and chakra-made objects, I believe warping a solid body would be way more difficult, since he used an enormous time for warping Deidara. Even if it takes 2 or 3 seconds, Yondaime could jump in an instant and do Hiraishin. Hiraishin is instantaneous, he moment he teleports he needs a second at best to grab Jiraiya and teleport againQuote:
He needs a tag or two on a wall and a tag on Jiraiya.Quote:
Are you actualy comparing Kakashi from back then to Minato? Kakashi was way younger then Minato. Its like comparing a 10 years old with someone in his 30. Kakashi was more then able to trick Itachi.Quote:
The man is easy on Minato's level. Minato made Rasengan when he was older and after having a look at the biju bomb. Kakashi made that jutsu by himself. Then we have the rest of his fights where he should to be just incredible smart, fighting people like Itachi and countering all his jutsus perfecly and saving Kurenai (aside from the MS genjutsu). Kakashi is as smart as Shika that has an IQ of 220 or something like that (stated so by Naruto, no idea if he is right lol but aparently Kishi usualy speaks trough his caracters, even idiots like Naruto. So take it as you whant). He is defenetly up with Minato in smarts and tactics.
Then think of how he was deducing in latest chapters Tobi's skills that impresed Tobi.
If they strike at the same time its diferent. As Minato could dodge 1 and then get hit by the other.
Long range stuff:
-Suiton: Daibakufu no Jutsu
-Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu
-Suiton: Suikōdan no Jutsu
To bad we don't knwo the rest of his 1000 jutsus but this is more then enough. Then take into account that he has a lake there and an waterfall. Then take into account Kakashi using water(that is going to be everywhere) + raiton to stun Minato to make Gai get a shoot in.
Kakashi could use a Earth Release: Underground Projection Fish Technique to pop right under Minato when he is distracted to dodge Gai. Obviously if they are no on the water at that point.
Now keep in mind that just because he can ST it does not mean he can't be hit as proven in his fight with Tobi when he got tagged multiple times.
He can't trow Kunai's far enough to pop a km away. He is going to dodge in some 10-15 meters area and in all this time he is going to have Kakashi on his ass to.Quote:
Now when it comes to genjutsu. Itachi is way above Sasuke in that area even if his eye is better. Eye jutsus work the same way. Only how good you can cast it and what not, but 1 simple eye contact is enough.Quote:
You don't know if that was Tobi or not (he had long hair and its way back). You also don't know how it was achomplised and if he had or not the Biju's cooperation or something. This can't be used as you don't know the circumstances of that feat.Quote:
If nothing else Tobi had the Kyuubi already into a genjutsu. How do you know that he can even genjutsu another target when he is bussy keeping the bloody Kyuubi under his control? Sry but to many variable. You can't use this as evidence. Also the Kyuubi is a special case, can't be used.Quote:
it showes what he can do based on his feats. The point is he never showed to be able to do it even fs somewhat fodder people like Danzou's bodyguards. Also he was unable to blitz anybody easy. Not even the boodyguards. Also 3 fights, Minato, bodyguards and Konan.Quote:
They are fighting over a huge pool of water where Minato does not have exacly marks. He can mark the edges of the waterfall but that is it. Now Minato should do it as he is entering neutral grounds compared to Kakashi and Gai. But yes he can mark JMan and what not.Quote:
He has aoe attacks with his punches and is helped by Kakashi. He can't do it alone defenetly. But he can be more then a distraction for Kakashi to trow some huge area of effect jutsus(as i posted that list above).Quote:
Never said he would get outsmarted. I stated that Kakashi is mart enough to formulate a plan where 2 people with long range jutsus could land a hit/hits. Nobody is untouchable.Quote:
Even Tobi never got outsmarted in there fight. Minato just tricked Tobi with an unknown, his lvl 2 ST teleport.
Open a small rift the size of your finger and warp away just a little bit of JMan's brain. GGQuote:
There is no need to warp away JMan completly. Just open the rift and warp a little bit and close it. Bam dead JMan.
Yes but fighting over the water he would need to engage away from the Kunai's. The point is he is going to need to use his normal speed just as much as ST. A battlefield that is not set up like that where he fights Raikage (tags and kunai everywhere) is going to end up like Tobi vs Minato where he used mostly his normal speed.Quote:
This is way i made this at VOE. So the water would help Kakashi and Gai team out. Of course Minato and JMan are probably going to win but its going to be a hard fight and Kakashi/Gai would defenetly be chalenging and could land hits even on Minato.
Most of the people here agree on this. Minato can't solo but his team wins after a very good fight and i do belive that is more then reasonable.
Last edited by xXan; April 24, 2012 at 07:23 AM.