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Thread: What do you think of IN?

  1. #16
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Uriel's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think of IN?

    That's what I mean. And that's why Biscuit made emphasis on it. Gyo in the eyes is a must every move they make. That's why Nippon had Kuroro warning the girls while running and Madhouse, knowing this, made it automatic... as it should be in every fight.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

  2. #17
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: What do you think of IN?

    Ubo losing to Kurapica just because Emperor Time gives him 100% reinforcement is also BS imo.

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: What do you think of IN?

    Quote Originally Posted by mousiehamster View Post
    Ubo losing to Kurapica just because Emperor Time gives him 100% reinforcement is also BS imo.
    Emperor Time still doesn't make up the innate difference. As explained in the same arc when using unfamiliar school you take a double penalty, i.e. if Kurapika is level 10 at Materialization, he can only use level 4 Emission at 40% of level 4, and Emperor Time allows him to do level 4 Emission at 100% but it's still level 4. Likewise this means normally he could use level 6 Reinforcement at 60% on the same scale, and Emperor Time gives him level 6 at 100% instead. Ubogin at 20-50% did not do any damage to him, but assuming both are equal level then that implies he's using something like 50% of level 10 and assuming levels are purely linear, that should be less than 100% of level 6. For the 100% of level 10, namely the Big Bang, Kurapika avoided the direct hit and still broke his arm from blocking.

    Without Emperor Time Kurapika most likely can't even withstand 50% of Ubogin's power (that'd be 60% of level 6, i.e. 36% of level 10 assuming a linear scale). Originally, Materialization/Manipulation is pretty much grossly outclassed by Reinforcement (that's why Kurapika wants to be a Reinforcement user type), because you're looking at situation where a Reinforcement like Ubogin can simply use 50% and save 50% to react to any emergencies, and you still can't even take a hit from them head on so you'd probably just get completely owned in any fight.

  4. #19
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: What do you think of IN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    I think that Togashi didn't have wrapped up the whole Nen System until Greed Island. That's why there are some holes in power levels and how some experienced users ended making newbies mistakes.

    In this case, Uvo not using Gyo was utterly n00b.
    Nah, IN hides Nen, Uvo assumed Kurapicka's Chains were real chains he was manipulating.

    If anything it makes Kurapicka's growth unbelievable that he learned all the basic and advance Technique's so fast even if Gon and Killua had stopped their training. He shouldn't be that skilled with Nen or already mastered his Hatsu.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    I'm guessing originally In is supposed to be an integral part of the fight and then Togashi eventually realized that if you didn't use Gyo you would probably die the moment you fight anyone who isn't a Reinforcement user because literally every tech besidse Reinforcement-based tech can be hidden by In so we don't see In/Gyo anymore. Gyo is clearly assumed to be simply 'always on'.
    Yea I assumed the same that it's a technique that Nen users use but we wouldn't be told all the time. Biscuit trained Gon and Killua to use Gyo however when battling Nen users to see their hidden abilities they could be hiding......I didn't read the manga until Chimera arc but in the anime Chrollo tells Shizuku and Machi to use Gyo and keep it on when he approached Kurapicka and Gon when they ere chasing the Spiders.

  5. #20
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Uriel's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think of IN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Emperor Time still doesn't make up the innate difference. As explained in the same arc when using unfamiliar school you take a double penalty, i.e. if Kurapika is level 10 at Materialization, he can only use level 4 Emission at 40% of level 4, and Emperor Time allows him to do level 4 Emission at 100% but it's still level 4. Likewise this means normally he could use level 6 Reinforcement at 60% on the same scale, and Emperor Time gives him level 6 at 100% instead. Ubogin at 20-50% did not do any damage to him, but assuming both are equal level then that implies he's using something like 50% of level 10 and assuming levels are purely linear, that should be less than 100% of level 6. For the 100% of level 10, namely the Big Bang, Kurapika avoided the direct hit and still broke his arm from blocking.

    Without Emperor Time Kurapika most likely can't even withstand 50% of Ubogin's power (that'd be 60% of level 6, i.e. 36% of level 10 assuming a linear scale). Originally, Materialization/Manipulation is pretty much grossly outclassed by Reinforcement (that's why Kurapika wants to be a Reinforcement user type), because you're looking at situation where a Reinforcement like Ubogin can simply use 50% and save 50% to react to any emergencies, and you still can't even take a hit from them head on so you'd probably just get completely owned in any fight.
    Ahhh this discussion again. I missed it :3 That if you believe that levels are capped. I still believe they don't.
    And percentages indicates how much it costs to learn. For Kurapika, it's meaningless since He learned quickly He was specialization and that his ability allowed him to use all the Hatsus at 100%

    ---------- Post added at 10:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by XXGenesis View Post
    Nah, IN hides Nen, Uvo assumed Kurapicka's Chains were real chains he was manipulating.
    If anything it makes Kurapicka's growth unbelievable that he learned all the basic and advance Technique's so fast even if Gon and Killua had stopped their training. He shouldn't be that skilled with Nen or already mastered his Hatsu.
    That's true, but that where Togashi put the oath and restriction into play...Which is a powerful tool. You can make a technique without rules and stuff, but it would consider you considerably more time to develop it as you want it.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

  6. #21
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: What do you think of IN?

    Uriel how could you not believe in the capped Levels of Nen? Gon even during the Chimera Ant wasn't at Uvo's level as an enhancer. I believe it makes sense but there couldn't be much levels. It's simply experience and skill with your nen + Amount of Aura and how much you are able to produce, All of those factors have to be considered during a Nen fight and besides Kurapicka being the hugely exception of this basic logical method..It's all about Experience.

    Uvo's Big Bang attack can work agains't other Enhancers he could demolish somebody like Gon even during the GI Arc. But somebody on Netero's level or similar Enhanced Nen masters can simply Block with more aura than he puts into that attack and it'll deal low damage. Kurapicka simply shouldn't have been able to Tank that attack. His attacks obviously were effective but weren't life threatening to Uvo so his defense shouldn't surpass his offensive.

    My whole thing is with using Ryo which is the ability to shift your aura around from Leg, to body to fist or wherever which is the basics of fighting with Nen, Gon and Killua were taking 13 seconds just to gather that amount of aura, Biscuit mentions they shouldn't be fighting experienced Nen users cause they'll just get demolished not being veteran enough in using their Nen. Kurapicka should have been much more crippled by this during the York Shin arc even though it was clear he wasn't as Good as the Spider's were. He just has a lot of Hatred Nen stored up ready to unleash which in terms puts him around their level.

    Back to the topic of IN. It seems mostly Conjurers, Emission or Specializations are prone to use IN for it gives them a deadlier advantage of hiding their Hatsu abilities. Like Hisoka he uses IN to secretly attach in his Bungee Gum to items or his opponents even though it isn't needed in his case but it makes him look magician like and can have his opponents like WTF. A Conjurer especially in Kurapicka's case your rabbit screwed if you don't cause you'll simply be caught with W/e ability their Hatsu has and be playing to their Tune. And Emitter's you just ognna get bombarded with their Nen or whatever they Emitt.........GYO is definitely a must use in the beginning of a battle with a Nen user until you figure out what Class they are in and if it's necessary to keep on using it.

  7. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: What do you think of IN?

    Ubogin was aiming for Kurapika's spine, so it implies as powerful as Reinforcements users are, if you block their attack successfully it's at least not one-hit kill, though we see that even a blocked attack from a Reinforcement user leads to grevious damage. And no I don't see Netero being able to block that either given he's stated as physically frail compared to his prime. AP isn't some kind of mana shield where you just drop more AP to cover for whatever mistakes, or the Ants with their off the scale AP reserves would never get hurt from any human-based attack and yet they clearly do take damage. It's not like you'll see someone punching you and say, "If I use 1000 AP to reinforcement my arm I can block it, but maybe I should just lose my arm and save that AP for emergency".

    The whole flow of aura argument does not apply to Kurapika because Emperor Time essentially gives him more levels as opposed to more experience. We can see that the level cap concept applies to everyone in HXH. Netero didn't have some backup special status move when his regular move was doing no appaernt damage to Meryem. Hisoka basically has one combat move (the deception really can't fool an expert). In general we see that characters in HXH have a very limited moveset and it has to be restrained by the 'level cap' concept, unless Kurapika is the first person to realize "Having extra abilities = great!" in all of HXH.

    Let's take Kurapika's healing ability. It certain uses Materialization + Reinforcement. To keep things simple we'll say anyone who has the same level (and level and % affinity are completely linear) can do exactly the same thing, so you need level 6 Reinforcement + level 10 Materialization to do it. How hard would it be for someone else to learn this? Well another Materilization user would need 10/0.6 = level 16.6 before he can learn the equivalent of level 6 Reinforcement, since it's 60% for level and 60% for effectiveness.

    Now how hard is it to get a 'level' in HXH? When Gon and Killua were training for Reinforcement, the level 1 training requires you to break 1000 rocks with a single rock. Biscuit said that normally it'd take several weeks to even break 100 rocks. Further, Biscuit said that you should only train one type of school a day, presumably because otherwise this only dilutes the effort. We don't know how long it took Gon and Killua to complete the level 1 training, but it looks like a timeframe on the order of weeks, not days. And both are unfathomably talented compared to everyone else in HXH. It's also pretty clear that these level must be exponential in nature as Gon made literally no progress on the level 5 Emission training despite a month of training, and again this is from someone who has arguably the highest innate talent in HXH.

    So 'train harder and get more levels' is simply not an option, not to mention 3 of the 4 main characters in HXH starts with unfathomably level of talent to begin with so it's not like you can outtrain these guys. Assuming no fractional levels, a normal Manipulation user would need to train to level 17 Manipulation, and then he can learn level 10 Reinforcement, and it'd be at 60% effectiveness so he can only use effectively level 6 Reinforcement at 100%.

    Netero is said to hit his limit and then embraked on a decade long training to surpass it. I'd argue all that training merely increased his level by 1, and he's powerful because while every other person in HXH is an equivalent of level 10, he's level 11. Keep in mind that a powerful abilty like Judgment Chain only uses level 4 Emission, so these levels are huge in HXH.

    It's because gaining levels is so hard in HXH that you're better off going for something with more tangible benefit like the ability to move/generate aura quickly. You can embark on a training camp and never even come anywhere close to hitting that mythical 'level 11'. Certainly Netero is the only human we know of that has surpassed whatever this 'limit' that Netero surpassed via training, so it is entirely possible other less talented indivdual can waste their entire life training and never even get to level 11, let alone level 17!

    But again, none of this applies to Kurapika because he essentially starts with more levels. Whereas a normal Materialization user needs to be level 17 to use level 6 Reinforcement (level 10 Reinforcement * 60% effectiveness), Kurapika only needs level 10 to use level 6 Reinforcement. This allows him to master more moves than other people could have (his moveset is far more comprehensive than just about anyone in HXH) and when you've more and better special moves, you don't really need to worry about anything else.

  8. #23
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: What do you think of IN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Ubogin was aiming for Kurapika's spine, so it implies as powerful as Reinforcements users are, if you block their attack successfully it's at least not one-hit kill, though we see that even a blocked attack from a Reinforcement user leads to grevious damage. And no I don't see Netero being able to block that either given he's stated as physically frail compared to his prime. AP isn't some kind of mana shield where you just drop more AP to cover for whatever mistakes, or the Ants with their off the scale AP reserves would never get hurt from any human-based attack and yet they clearly do take damage. It's not like you'll see someone punching you and say, "If I use 1000 AP to reinforcement my arm I can block it, but maybe I should just lose my arm and save that AP for emergency".

    The whole flow of aura argument does not apply to Kurapika because Emperor Time essentially gives him more levels as opposed to more experience. We can see that the level cap concept applies to everyone in HXH. Netero didn't have some backup special status move when his regular move was doing no appaernt damage to Meryem. Hisoka basically has one combat move (the deception really can't fool an expert). In general we see that characters in HXH have a very limited moveset and it has to be restrained by the 'level cap' concept, unless Kurapika is the first person to realize "Having extra abilities = great!" in all of HXH.

    Let's take Kurapika's healing ability. It certain uses Materialization + Reinforcement. To keep things simple we'll say anyone who has the same level (and level and % affinity are completely linear) can do exactly the same thing, so you need level 6 Reinforcement + level 10 Materialization to do it. How hard would it be for someone else to learn this? Well another Materilization user would need 10/0.6 = level 16.6 before he can learn the equivalent of level 6 Reinforcement, since it's 60% for level and 60% for effectiveness.

    Now how hard is it to get a 'level' in HXH? When Gon and Killua were training for Reinforcement, the level 1 training requires you to break 1000 rocks with a single rock. Biscuit said that normally it'd take several weeks to even break 100 rocks. Further, Biscuit said that you should only train one type of school a day, presumably because otherwise this only dilutes the effort. We don't know how long it took Gon and Killua to complete the level 1 training, but it looks like a timeframe on the order of weeks, not days. And both are unfathomably talented compared to everyone else in HXH. It's also pretty clear that these level must be exponential in nature as Gon made literally no progress on the level 5 Emission training despite a month of training, and again this is from someone who has arguably the highest innate talent in HXH.

    So 'train harder and get more levels' is simply not an option, not to mention 3 of the 4 main characters in HXH starts with unfathomably level of talent to begin with so it's not like you can outtrain these guys. Assuming no fractional levels, a normal Manipulation user would need to train to level 17 Manipulation, and then he can learn level 10 Reinforcement, and it'd be at 60% effectiveness so he can only use effectively level 6 Reinforcement at 100%.

    Netero is said to hit his limit and then embraked on a decade long training to surpass it. I'd argue all that training merely increased his level by 1, and he's powerful because while every other person in HXH is an equivalent of level 10, he's level 11. Keep in mind that a powerful abilty like Judgment Chain only uses level 4 Emission, so these levels are huge in HXH.

    It's because gaining levels is so hard in HXH that you're better off going for something with more tangible benefit like the ability to move/generate aura quickly. You can embark on a training camp and never even come anywhere close to hitting that mythical 'level 11'. Certainly Netero is the only human we know of that has surpassed whatever this 'limit' that Netero surpassed via training, so it is entirely possible other less talented indivdual can waste their entire life training and never even get to level 11, let alone level 17!

    But again, none of this applies to Kurapika because he essentially starts with more levels. Whereas a normal Materialization user needs to be level 17 to use level 6 Reinforcement (level 10 Reinforcement * 60% effectiveness), Kurapika only needs level 10 to use level 6 Reinforcement. This allows him to master more moves than other people could have (his moveset is far more comprehensive than just about anyone in HXH) and when you've more and better special moves, you don't really need to worry about anything else.
    Not gonna debate this Neter is 100+ with abs of steel and jumped outta a airship when he landed he left a small crater in the earth beneath his foot no nen involved. He didn't even need to felx his stomach muscles when Gon headbutted him who's likewise very hard headed literally, and didn't want to break his head when he tried again and would of had to flex his ab muscles. He's frailer than his younger 50-60yr old self but still the strongest old man in HXH Story.

    Ap and Ryo go hand in hand. Enhancer's are superior in combat because their Nen has the greatest Offense and defense. AP works exaclty how I mentioned unless your a conjuer users or Manipulation users vs an Enhancer of same or higher level. When you block with more AP than the attack or vice-versa you negate the damaging effects of Nen and it becomes a regular strike. The reason why Ryo was introduced. You can't defend with 30% defense against 70% attack you are gonna feel a lot of pain maybe break something. Enhancer's are the exception they can still cause damage having less Aura or AP. You can see this by the flow of aura which can be predictable by new nen users..

    EX.Gon vs Knuckle..Netero's flow is the most unpredictable because of his crazy training it's extremely still when he fights.

    I didn't say somebody can Tank the Big Bang Attack unharmed but somebody with more Aura and being a Transmutter or Emitter that leans towards enhancement can take it with low damage. Same way with Kurapicka he only broke an arm when we've seen somebody get blown to smithereens(utter BS and plot induced)..........No body has more or Aura or AP than the Royal Guards or King. Nobody beside's Netero, Kuckle and Killua ever hit the Royal Guards.....I'm correct because with natural durability and Amount of Nen Uvo is only stung by an RPG missle, Sniper Bullets and brushes off regular bullets, because he's an enhancer.

    Netero has more Aura than anybody we've ever seen besides the Ant's and we didn't get an comparison after he polished up his Nen. The King undoubtedly with his Nen didn't feel his attack and shrugged it off. But after repeated being attack he did start to feel some type of pain from Netero's Hatsu. Yupi after being struck by Killua's lighting couldn't access his Nen anymore that's when Killua laid down his dozen plus hits that paralyzed him...Knuckle hit him also after he lost his Nen during the attack. And during the beginning of the invasion he was hit by an invisible force he didn't expect that attack and didn't move much from it much less....Only Time the Royal Guards or Kings were Struck..Uber Gon doesn't need to be explained

    Kurapicka is not the only person with multiple Hatsu's..Feitan, Kastro, Gon all have more than one Hatsu. Hatsu are best being created with something you strongly familiarize with and very few only use one style of Nen. Killua, Kurapicka, Hisoka, and Ponzu all have numerous Hatsu. If not closely related to it's user it's going to take forever to master and going to far to another Nen category it will suck and be greatly flawed. Hisoka fooled the Spiders by changing his Prophecy, that ability can only be seen with Gyo it's that low key(if he uses it in plain sight you'll have to be smart enough not to be bewildered and use Gyo)..Same with Hachi's strings. That being said Ppl like Zeno simply creates different skill sets and usage's for his Hatsu..I.e Dragon Riding(Emission/Trans), Multiple Dragon Dive(Emission/Trans), and Dragon head(Trans), all the same Hatsu just used differently..Killua can shock you with his palms, strike you with lighting from above and also increase his reflexes and super charges them so that he moves even faster.(All Transmutation but different Hatsu)

    Giving Kurapicka's own description of Emperor of Time he doesn't gain levels. He just becomes able to use other nen's without limit. With that is the only way he could have level'd up his other Nen abilities. Which is why Ppl don't believe in Levels but there are Lv's, as explained with Biscuit's training. Newbie's, Seasoned and Pro Nen users have greater or less capabilities using the categories of Nen...Gon's better at Emission than transmutation he leans more that way and Killua feels uncomfortable using EN and emission, but his Grandfather doesn't and they are from the same group. This has to be considered also when Gon learns to levitate more so than Killua does.

    Back to Netero. He didn't even know Nen when he went to go train he was a master martial artist who respected his skills and felt at that age he could no longer gain anymore height in his skills. So he prayed to his body and fist in appreciation to them and Punched he did this 10k no matter how long it would take him.With such devotion and concentration he activated his Nen as you see when he's practicing this method over time the snow starts to melt around him, after finishing this method within less and less hrs meaning he was started to do it faster before the sun even went down he spent more time praying. This is how Netero learned Nen and Started his Shigen-Ryu Style which teaches Nen to responsible martial artist. Through this he achieved a punch faster than the speed or sound and his Praying Gesture which is probably like breathing to him thus ultimately resulted into his Hatsu his Buddha Statue. His Backup Hatsu more like his ultimate Hatsu is his Zero attack, which he doesn't even need to pray having such a strong connection with his hatsu, I would say doesn't need hands for cause I'm sure he was just flipping the king the bird as he gave him all his Nen in 1 go.

    1st of you don't burn Nen when you keep your conjured item out, only when you conjure it and dispel it. Or manipulate it or use it's ability. 2nd Your wrong because another Enhancer can create a Hatsu to heal himself just as fast as Kurapicka with set conditions on how he'll heal and what he would have to do. 3rd Kurapicka's chains are designed around his Emperor of Time. Without his scarlet eyes his healing chain would be really useless and wouldn't heal him as much as it did or as fast. He manipulates his dowsing chain, Emits his chain judgement, and reinforces his Chain Jail....The conjured chain is already set in motion with strict oaths set around them and only are at their greatest during Emperor of Time.....the trick is to pluck out the blonde's eye balls that's his real weakness.

    The only thing that is Cap'd is a user wanting to use another type of Nen when he isn't closely associated with it or isn't comfortable with it's methods..Gon would be able to manipulate his emission attack only so much, compared to another Emission user or an Manipulator using an emission attack. You can't use Nen that is too far from your category as well or think your technique would be strong..Gon can't conjure good shyt. He can but it's ability will be very limited and just crap compared to what Killua would be able to conjure or an another Manipulator. So Is Enhancer cap'd? No Uvo wanted to be able to blow up mountains with his fist. That is very possible if he had an insane training method and was able to raise his aura to Royal Guard Levels. Same way Netero was able to attack faster than Anybody including the King.

    Kurapicka whole set level's doesn't make sense. It had to be an example of what his levels where, not what your level is in that category if you are from a certain group. Only the % thing is according to ya groups. And somebody distanced from a certain Nen Group wouldn't be able to gain such levels being sucky at the type of Nen (not being able to enforce the rock for it not to break agains't other rocks the same way an enhancer user would be able to). His lv's also aren't the same lv's as Biscuit's training. I used Biscuits training method which is much more reliable and we've seen what lv5 Emission is it's nothing simply methods to increase your Hatsu in any given area....Not to say Uvo, Phinx's or Netero would be able to break thousands of rocks before the rock they were using chipped.

    HxH gives it readers a lot to thing about which leads to reckless speculation at times but that's what so great about the manga that it enables you to think beyond the scene showed in the pages having to link things together.
    Last edited by XXGenesis; November 25, 2012 at 12:43 AM.

  9. #24
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Uriel's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think of IN?

    Quote Originally Posted by XXGenesis View Post
    Uriel how could you not believe in the capped Levels of Nen? Gon even during the Chimera Ant wasn't at Uvo's level as an enhancer. I believe it makes sense but there couldn't be much levels. It's simply experience and skill with your nen + Amount of Aura and how much you are able to produce, All of those factors have to be considered during a Nen fight and besides Kurapicka being the hugely exception of this basic logical method..It's all about Experience.
    You seem to not understand: What I mean that I don't believe in capped levels means that for me leveling is unlimited. You can be lvl10 or lvl200 or lvl9000 and so forth.
    Experience reflex levels in almost every system ever made :/ Amount of aura is usually what comes of experience.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

  10. #25
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: What do you think of IN?

    Ook, Well Yea I realized that when I was writing my post I interpreted what you said wrong ...Yea Lv's can't be Cap'd cause Uvo's dream of a Nuke Fist can actually be achieved. But Amount of Aura is more than just experience cause Emotions and strict conditions etc can increase that. Experience imo plays a big factor towards aount of Aura you can attack with at a time and simply just your proficiency with nen.

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