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Translations: Bleach 600 by BadKarma
Having some unique reaction or not the Kyuubi still needs to make the decision to bust him out. The Kyuubi had no intention on doing it so...Quote:
We have no reason to belive the Kyuubi could do what marshall313 sugested but even asuming Kyuubi could "feel" the way he sugested Naruto would still not have the ability to bust out of genjutsu. So using:
As evidence is flawed as Naruto would be missing a factor to be able to do what you sugest even if he could have what marshall313 proposed. Then again there is no need for counter arguments as he prodived no arguments himself to support his claim(valid ones).Quote:
Originally Posted by Impossibility
I'll give you that. This actually makes sense. Though the point I was making is that Orochimaru, even with his regenerative properties, can't regenerate indefinately, and doesn't have to be injured all that severely before it's required. However Sasuke and Itachi's strategy during Susanoo is to tank attacks and bring the opponent to them. The instant nature of it's summoning is also the key factor here, where Orochimaru could attempt a Senei Jashu or Kusanagi strike at mid or close range, only to get squashed or burned alive during from a simply Susanoo fist or glancing Enton. He has allies, yes. But only one of them has any viable ranged options (Jiraiya) and those attacks are useless (outside of his swamp) until he ups the ante to Sage Mode, which requires approximately 1000 years to activate for him.
They have numbers on their side, but Itachi and Sasuke have overwhelmingly destructive jutsu, an nigh-impenetrable defense, aswell as crippling Genjutsu. Susanoo has shown on several occasions that numbers don't mean a whole lot very often depending on the opponents.
Not necessarily. If they can't reach eachother with their eyesight, they can potentially see their opponent's still, giving them the chance to cast an Amaterasu (Itachi cast a Tsukuyomi. I don't see Amaterasu being impossible). This would make the paralysis a non issue. Not to mention the Genjutsu is a sound one. Last time I checked Tsunade and Orochimaru both have ears. The only opponent capable of moving during said event is Jiraiya. If he were burned alive with Amaterasu while Itachi, Sasuke, Orochimaru, and Tsunade all sat paralyzed... the Uchiha would be the victors, as they're the only ones that didn't lose an ally.Quote:
Even if you believed that, we've seen two occasions where an Uchiha has guided Amaterasu's flames along the ground, leaving a trail of flames in it's wake with only one usage of the jutsu (once when Itachi was chasing Sasuke with the jutsu. Once when Sasuke makes the wall of Amaterasu around he and Itachi 1 chapter ago). What's stopping either of them from just using one Amaterasu and guiding their sight around in random locations, spreading the black flames until the casting of the jutsu is done? Not to mention the link I gave you with the magatama didn't exhaust Sasuke in the slightest despite firing nearly a dozen.
We also have to remember he can manipulate already created flames. Burning the forest and then simply relying on Enton to pull flames from the burning forest and mold them into his constructs would take far less chakra.
I expected you to rely on what's been shown in the manga already. Raikage only has 3 more limbs he can waste against enton. Coating Susanoo in Enton at the last second that he thinks he has a clear shot guarantees he's burned and has to disarm (hah!) himself again. We've seen this happen once, so there's no reason whatsoever to believe it can't happen again. That's all the reason you need, but I can give more:Quote:
Kagutsuchi can be placed where Sasuke deems fit, so anticipating (with the Sharingan) where he's going to run and then setting a booby trap in the path of his feet ends the fight quickly. Yes he has allies watching his back, but he'll be the primary aggressor and thus the easiest to react to.
Then you've forgotten Sasuke has access to flight aswell? And while their very presence doesn't drag Gaara into Genjutsu, Gaara will being especially attentive to both protect his allies and look for an opening pull them from Susanoo. There will always be a chance to cast Genjutsu on him as it literally only takes a glance, and the range is hardly an issue.Quote:
Except you've read the chapter and you (should) know all the points that prevented Bee from being burned alive the instant the fight started:Quote:
1: Sasuke had no access to Amaterasu yet
2: Wasn't fully healed from injuries aquired against Itachi
3: Was told not to kill him as he was to be captured alive
4: Ended Amaterasu prematurely inorder to succeed at stipulation no.3
That's full on wrong. Bee had no options after that fight. As Gyuuki affirmed: Bee had lost too many tails. There's no way in hell he would've fought Sasuke in that condition now that he knew he had access to such a destructive jutsu. Everyone points out that Bee gave up, but none of them acknowledges that it wasn't an idea until AFTER he lost.Quote:
Allow me to refresh your memory:Quote:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/411/15 Sharingan was activated at the end of the assault.
Feel free to claim he activated it earlier during the other panels. But good luck proving it.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/411/18 Once again, the only successful strikes ever landed on Sasuke were during moments of shock and awe. From the Lariat he was blindsided with, to the 8 swords plunged into him after someone blocked a sword he was lead to believe was unblockable.
Normally every time I remark about the lethality of Amaterasu against Chakra Mode Naruto, some one claimes he can tank it with his chakra shroud, and then turn the shroud off so that the flames disappear without hurting him. So, I took the initiative and pointed out that if they run THROUGH the wall coated in Amaterasu flames, then turn their shrouds off to remove the flames, then they're inside of the circle of flames now inbetween Sasuke and Itachi, and a wall of flames that's still behind them. Not a smart place to be.
No. Yagura being hypnotized by a Sharingan wielder who's shown proficiency with hypnosis (Tobi) is instantaneously useless against any OTHER Sharingan wielder that's shown proficiency with hypnosis (Sasuke and Itachi. Itachi moreso than Sasuke). It's fine if you disagree, but I don't have a problem proving it.Quote:
I didn't think it was necessary, as alot of it is obvious, but okay. Amaterasu is immune to suiton and thus, won't be stopped by Kisame's giant water dome nor any suiton revealed to be usuable by Niidaime. Jokey Boy is quick, but hasn't shown speed that the Sharingan can't follow, and also requires a great deal of prep, and it's explosion was survived by a particularly small sand defense from Gaara, making Susanoo tanking it a very likely scenario. Amaterasu would burn it away and alter the necessary weather conditions to create the jutsu, likely making it impossible to be used again after being burned away. And extreme heat turns water into steam. Enton would burn away Niidaime Mizukage, making his hydrification a bad choice. Not to mention he has a special oily quality to his water that could potentially make him more flammable than he should be. As for water bullets, I don't have a problem believing the Sharingan's predictive capabilities lets Sasuke or Itachi dodge them, provided Sasuke hasn't already fed him a handful of Chidori Senbon to paralyze his aquatic body.Quote:
Again, all conclusions I expected everyone to come to on their own accord. My bad.
It would. I suggest you avoid questioning the Sharingan's ability to see through any visual Genjutsu, EVER. Niidaime's or not. That's a losing battle every time.
That's fine, but you'll have a time attributing those bullets the kind of range he'd require to hit that bird. Yes it's a particularly large bird, but he's firing water from his body. Gravity is an issue. Coral palm was taken into account, but I intentionally avoided mentioning Susanoo again because it's seems too obvious an answer again. Are they in base form and caught in it? Make Susanoo grow from their bodies and break out. They already in Susanoo? Turn it off and simply step out of the coral. Remember, Gai elbowed the coral and snapped it off of Naruto. I'm not about to believe Susanoo couldn't break through something that Gai broke through with his elbow, lol.
Like I said, I don't have a problem proving it by showing canon feats of hypnosis from both brothers.Quote:
Sasuke hypnotized a Kumo-nin into giving him the location of Bee
He also hypnotized Manda into allowing him in his mouth so he could escape C0.
He's also capable of pacifying Juugo's murderous rage.
Itachi hypnotized women into luring Jiraiya to the other side of the village inorder to kidnap Naruto.
He also was stated by a Konoha-nin to be capable of hypnotizing multiple ninja over long distances.
Now, you'll probably try to disregard some of these feats because one was against a fodder ninja, some were against normal women, one is just a fodder ninja talking about what he knows Itachi can do, and one was against a boss level summon... but ask yourself this: why did Tobi wait until Konan was nearly dead before hypnotizing her, yet Yagura was in perfect shape when he was being hypnotized for years?
It's obvious that he simply didn't have the Genjutsu defense necessary. I don't doubt his skill of hypnosis is greater than Sasuke's, but I've got reasonable doubt to believe they can perform a similar feat, if only an inferior version of it.
For round 7, I can imagine the other 2 ninjas trying to distract the Brothers long enough for Kisame to fire off a Great Shark Bullet. And that'll be an OHKO, as it absorbs Chakra to grow stronger, and Susanoo is entirely Chakra...
Just added 4 more matches to necrobump this thread, now that we've got more info on Sasuke's abilities.
Gotta give #9 to Hashirama. It'll be a very hard battle cause it's 2 on 1 but so far he's the only shinobi shown to have perfect counters to most MS techniques...certainly the ones the brothers have....But just too much stamina and raw power...not to mention all the experience he has fighting sharingan users...He can cast the blackout genjutsu to blind the brothers, can go sage mode and slap the crap out of the susanoo's with the buddha...and if they get burned? meh, make another one...along with a wooden mecca, and the wooden dragon...too much for the brothers in the end...also, his wood bunshins are nearly undetectable like oro's bunshins (w/e they're called)...the flower world w/e is probably enough to beat the bro's since afaik susanoo doesn't double as a gas mask...though like i said, very hard battle.
For one, no telling how long the blackout genjutsu lasts before either bro sees through it. Also, since madara said he could see through the wood bunshins, i'll have to give credit to the bros to be able to see through it as well, even though it's unconfirmed, still a well timed clone should still be able to save hashirama from death blows, giving him another chance to counter with something
Another reason for it being a hard fight would be if it drags on...itachi's intellect could pose problems for hashi if the fight drags on...he's just too analytical and can easily analyze different jutsu to find their weaknesses...which is a good compliment to sasuke's brashness and charge in style...
in the end though it's hashi on top for the reasons already stated
---------- Post added June 11, 2013 at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was June 10, 2013 at 09:31 PM ----------
10) They burn...enough said...but here's why, hidan was the slowest akatsuki member, he'll get one shotted by amaterasu. Konan can disperse or w/e and try to attack but she hasn't shown susanoo busting jutsu...and paper burns quite easily. Then you're left with kakuzu...and you know what? he burns...
11) Since hanzou is immune to poison, he can do some kind of 'suicide' combo attack with sasori but they lose in the end too. I mean with the shuriken skills the bros have, they don't even have to dodge most of sasori's poison attacks they can just deflect them leaving their vision clear to burn the bejeezus out of the puppets...i don't think sasori has any susanoo busting jutsu either afaik and hanzou will hold his own at first but he too will burn
12) I'll think about this one and get back to you...it's certainly not an easy fight for either side.
Last edited by akatsuki27; June 10, 2013 at 08:34 PM.
Round 9: Hashirama Senju (non edo)
The man who won over Madara + KURAMA... He could create 10 clones for each of the Uchiha and slam them down... Then its forest mode, polen, super huge statue in SM and all that retarded stuff.. No way they win this.
Round 10: Konan, Hidan, and Kakuzu.
Uchiha. They can tank whatever this 3 can trow at them (Susano) and using Tsuck+Amaterasu seals the deal.
Round 11: Sasori and Hanzou
Not even a fight. The Uchiha can see Sasori's heart and aim there... Hanzo? BWAHAHAHA.... Just no.... Its 1 shoot with Amaterasu/Ms genjutsu. God he was just lame in the manga... And after all that hype... Just lame...
Round 12: Minato and Jiraiya
Uchiha and i don't even see this as much of a fight... JMan would die really fast as he can't get to SM... Then its Itachi and Sasuke having a HELL of a time to get Minato but eventualy they wil win... A Chakra Mode Minato + ST would be hell to hit with anything but he can't win...
Are we counting Minato with half of Kyuubi's chakra? Don't think that should be allowed as he only got the chakra from using Shiki Fuuin and is able to use it as an Edo Tensei.
Well he got it before he died so... Asuming he would be revived right now he would be able to use it, he does not need to have ET mode to use it.
Yes he does, considering he needed Shiki Fuuin to host part of Kyuubi's chakra.
Minato was able to extract said chakra and its irrelevant how(to this fight). This lead to his death eventualy. Does this matter? If it does then:
Itachi has MS eyes.. He would eventualy go blind (like Minato would eventualy go DEAD) would we use a blind Itachi just because he is going to eventualy go blind? Itachi has longer time before going blind but just like Minato he is evenatualy going to go useless (well more or less). If you agree to remove Kurama from Minato as that would eventualy lead to his death then we sould remove Itachi's Susano, Amaterasu, Tsuck as he is also going to evetualy go blind...
Just because Minato died after using said jutsu is irrelevant to the fact that the last "living" version of Minato is the Kyuubi powered one. Asuming you would resurect Minato (don't tell me we are using the dead Minato in this fight...) for this fight then he is going to be as he was last in the manga but obviously at 100%.
Minato has no need to be ET to use Kurama's power. Asuming he would need to be ET to use said power then yes we should not use it...
Last edited by xXan; June 18, 2013 at 09:17 AM.
Minato doesn't have Kurama's chakra in this fight because he can't manipulate it without being an immortal zombie. His body simply isn't strong enough (remember, after sealing half of Kurama's chakra in his body he groaned about his body going numb, and how he could "barely move". The only reason he can control it now is because his body can't feel pain.
If I gave him Kurama's chakra in this fight, the moment the fight started he'd fall over on his face, screaming in pain before spontaneously combusting.
Look at ALL the ninja's on the battlefield and how Naruto can share his chakra. Once its purified its no longer a problem. Naruto's chakra used to BURN people's flesh off... Now even with 9 tails of it trees grow and shit.
Minato was able to reproduce what Naruto has, to purifiy said chakra.
Also Minato was only momentarily incapacitated, just moments later he is showed moving at good enough speeds to jump in front of Kurama. Not really that incapacitated.
Does this look to you like screaming in pain, falling over on his face and spontaneously combusting?Quote:
He could move, he could speak and perform jutsus just fine... Moving from this to Minato learning how to completly control the chakra and make it into "life giving" chakra like Naruto and its obvious this would have NO effect on him.
Oh and Kyuubi's evil chakra effect has similar effects to what that poison had on Hanzo... This things DO effect the ET zombies.
And the fact that kurama himself never thought about that. He never came into the conclusion that minato can't withstand his chakra. He never said that minato can't control his chakra. What did he say? That minato is badass that's why he can control his chakra, and the very first reason is that because of his complex seals. So saying that minato can't use the kyubi's chakra is just a wishful thinking ot someone who don't want for him to have that chakra.
But denying what kurama has been stated is the same as denying kishi's opinion. Overall, there's no panel/scan from the manga that stated minato can't use kurama's chakra.
Even if we assume he can handle the chakra (which I highly doubt considering Minato's state we've seen and everything we've been told about Jinchuriki), it still remains he had to use the Reaper to get it. If he could use something else to seal the chakra inside of him, he would have used it, because otherwise he would be kind of moronic... wouldn't you agree..?
So it still remains he had to die to obtain that chakra, which inevitably means he can't use it because you know... he's dead...