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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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  • Rafaela

    12 63.16%
  • Rigardo

    7 36.84%
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Thread: Rafaela vs Rigardo

  1. #1
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    Rafaela vs Rigardo

    Rafaela was as strong as her sister Luciela who was an abyssal one. Rigardo, "The Lion King", was #2 of male generation who was able to kill single-digit claymores in a heartbeat.

    Location: Pieta, the place where Clare fought Rigardo

    - Rafaela is allowed to release up to 30% of her yoki

    - Rigardo has access to his awakened form

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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    Rigardo, because he is very experienced in using his awakened form, and i highly doubt rafaela, as strong as she is, is capable of catching up to him with just 30% yoki.
    If she was allowed to go to her limit, i think there is a 50-50 chance either of them will win.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member SaphG1's Avatar
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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    Neither, They see each other fall in love and propagate Hell kittens the old fashioned way. cats unite!

    But seriously, Rafaela would beat him hands down. She's considered on par with Isley and Riful and even if Isley is the strongest of the three that doesn't mean that the other two Abyssal's were so much weaker then Isley that a number 2 could take them them down. The AO's are all comparable powers, capable of killing one another (they have to fight eachother seriously), if he couldn't take on Isley he doesn't stand a chance against the others either. From what we've been shown that scale of power is very far above number 2's even though you could say they are arguably the pinnacle of power for a 'normal' awakened beings.

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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    I see your point, but taking down an awakened nr 2, and just using 30% of your yoki?
    Rafaela is strong don't get me wrong, but i think you are overestimating Rafaela a bit.
    Let me rephrase my previous post, Rigardo vs 30% yoki Rafaela, Rigardo wins but barely
    Rigardo vs Rafaela going to her limit, Rafaela wins

  7. #5
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member SaphG1's Avatar
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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    Quote Originally Posted by Yomaslayer 95 View Post
    I see your point, but taking down an awakened nr 2, and just using 30% of your yoki?
    Rafaela is strong don't get me wrong, but i think you are overestimating Rafaela a bit.
    Let me rephrase my previous post, Rigardo vs 30% yoki Rafaela, Rigardo wins but barely
    Rigardo vs Rafaela going to her limit, Rafaela wins

    I see what your going for...i thought we meant an awakened Refaela(abyssal level arguably) restrained to 30%. If we're talking about 1v1 awakened number two vs an unawakened number one then the number two is going to win easily. Teresa is simply a special case which you can't compare to others of her rank. Though number two's lack that X factor that pushes them to abyssal level, in life they are the closest comparable beings to a number one. Very often that comparison is very close in scale as well coming down to slight differences in overall power and ability. Claymore Refaela would probably only just beat out claymore Rigardo IF she could at all. Awakened Rigardo could take Rafaela regardless of how much Yoki she released, 30% or to limit it wouldn't matter.

    Number 2 is a cursed number in Claymore, and if you have it even for a moment then something bad will happen to you. Number two's like Rigardo and Agatha are used a 'place markers' to show growth of the main characters, so they will lose no matter how absolutely ridiculous that would be. Lets face it, A fully Awakened Clare directed awakening or not shouldn't have had anywhere near the power to take out Rigardo, that he lost to her in Pieta is like a bad joke. it would have been like that number 40 something in the witches maw severely injuring/killing Dauf when she attacked him. Clare and company won because they were the main characters, it a plot device pure and simple. Sadly the trend show that no.2 always ends up being the fodder despite the grand implication of being the next best thing beneath a number one or an AO.


    Irene: Dead
    Rigardo: awakened and killed
    Agatha: awakened and killed
    Rosemary: awakened and killed
    Roxanne: awakened and killed
    Rafeala: awakened and 'dead'
    Priscella: awakened

    Need i say more...Yagi hates no.2's. Thus as long as Refaela was a more important character she has a chance to beat Rigardo
    Last edited by SaphG1; May 25, 2012 at 02:10 PM. Reason: typos

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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    Quote Originally Posted by SaphG1 View Post
    I see what your going for...i thought we meant an awakened Refaela(abyssal level arguably) restrained to 30%. If we're talking about 1v1 awakened number two vs an unawakened number one then the number two is going to win easily. Teresa is simply a special case which you can't compare to others of her rank. Though number two's lack that X factor that pushes them to abyssal level, in life they are the closest comparable beings to a number one. Very often that comparison is very close in scale as well coming down to slight differences in overall power and ability. Claymore Refaela would probably only just beat out claymore Rigardo IF she could at all. Awakened Rigardo could take Rafaela regardless of how much Yoki she released, 30% or to limit it wouldn't matter.
    I think that's stretching it a little bit. I never got the impression that a No.2 was that close in power to a No.1.

    Consider the fact that the ghosts destroyed Agatha without breaking a sweat/getting injured, vs. the fact that they didn't stand a chance in hell against Hysteria without those absurd circumstances. Now I know...talking awakened beings vs warriors is like comparing apples and oranges...but I would think that if a No.2 warrior was as powerful as you're implying that they might be more impressive as awakened beings.

    This is just my personal opinion that I don't have any real proof to back up, but back when Miria mentioned that there was a large jump from No.6 to No.5, I assumed it was like that for all the higher ranks going down (large gaps b/w No.4 & No.3 and so on). Ophelia was an above average 4 (and from what we can tell from the data books, easily outclassed Noel & Sofia), yet her struggle against Ilena was pitiful.

    So, all that being said...I tend to think that Raphaela could talk Rigaldo...or that any No.1 could take an awakened No.2 by themselves.

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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    As i said No.2 is a plot device and always has been. I'm pretty sure i mentioned in the paragraph right beneath the one you decided to answer from that they aren't impressive because they are always used as 'growth points' for characters or ways they can demonstrate their new 'strengths'. You shouldn't quote only a single section of whats written for a counterpoint, it makes your position much less valid.

    Now to speak about the databooks you mentioned they basically counter your thinking on their own.

    Remember Katea? The number 32 who was awakened in the witches maw and killed by Dauf. Well the Databook gave her stats after awakening, Lets comepare them to an unawakened Rafaela

    Katea (awakened)
    Yoki: A
    Agility: S
    Strength: S
    Invulnerability: A
    Intelligence: S


    Rafaela:
    Yoki: A
    Agility: A
    Muscular Strength: A
    Spirit: A
    Perception: A
    Leadership: C

    Dauf
    Yoki: SSS+
    Agility: S (Special Level of Ability)
    Strength: SSS+
    Invulnerability: SSS
    Intelligence: C

    Rigardo might not have been as invulnerable as Dauf or as strong but there is no doubt that their Yoki was in the least comparable and his speed in intellect easily dwarfed Dauf's own by a large margin. Katea after awakening becomes comparable to a number one in attributes but a single digit goes so far beyond that its ridiculous. There is no way a single digit should have a chance against an awakened counterpart, number 1's included. The few that have done such a thing have always been special in some case, OR the awakened being no matter what the number has just been fodder.

    This is one of Claymores greatest flaws(a common one), it introduces a system of implied logic but then smash it to pieces on specific occasions for main characters, then tried to reestablish said system after the conflict.
    • Rigardo should have killed everyone in Pieta. Miria's speed even with Phantom shouldn't have been remotely a match for him, Nor should Clare's in partial awakening. Yet somehow he was much slower and weaker then he SHOULD have been. Everything about him SHOULD have been so vastly beyond Claymores that he was unstoppable...but he wasn't.
    • Hysteria should have obliterated all the ghosts, she's even faster then Rigardo by once again a massive margin and yet somehow she's slower after awakening then before it and for all her new power fails to land a single critical blow from enemies who aren't even fast enough to block her...yet she died.
    • The awakened being that fought Ophelia and Clare should have obliterated them both with ease yet she too ends up with her head cut off because...she didn't tear Ophelia's head all the way off...Former warrior with experience herself in fighting Yoma and awakened presumably and she doesn't remove the head...(lame sh#*t)

    Every time it comes to the main cast the implied logic created by Yagi will be thrown out the window. That's because no one would accept it is the logical outcome of such battles were to happen. It's really a shounen thing, the good guys will always win over impossible odds "fate is always on their side (read Medaka box, its satires so nicely their). Fans like to try and rationalize these happenings but trying to alter the logic made by the creators in order to cover for what they intrinsically recognize as a massive flaw in the plot, thus your argument.

    The real Rigardo, without being watered down for the main cast would utterly obliterate Rafaela, she has absolutely no chance.

    Endnote: Any characters real power level is ranked on their importance to the story, believe it!(see what i did there?)
    Last edited by SaphG1; May 28, 2012 at 05:25 PM.

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  12. #8
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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    i didn't quote your 2nd paragraph, because i'm not going to get involved with debating "plot devices"...that isn't to say that there aren't convoluted plot holes within the series, including some of the points you made that i don't necessarily disagree with...but i'm just taking everything at face value...call me lazy or simple minded for doing so, but i have no interest in delving so deeply into this manga that i wanna get into the authors head or thought process

    now i'd also like to note a few more key points...i'm well aware of the fact that the difference in raw stats between an awakened being and a warrior are vastly different, hence why i said comparing the 2 are like comparing apples and oranges...however, awakened beings have no potential and are plateaued at whatever power level they awaken into...whereas warriors continue to grow stronger, and are able to release their youki in ways that effect their speed/strength/special ability so as to give them advantages in certain situations...otherwise, i'd think that awakened being hunter parties would require more & stronger warriors to even have a chance of succeeding

    i also never said that a warrior in general would/should have a chance against their awakened counterpart...in fact, i said that if raphaela and rigaldo were in the same generation they would not be counterparts (well, raphaela was [probably] a rank 2 as rigaldo, but given what we know about alicia & beth, that was most likely nothing more than a formality)...the overall point i was making was that, i believe the jump from no.2 to no.1 is probably quite large, and given the difference in their capability as warriors & what i said above about a warriors potential, it isn't all that unbelievable that raphaela would pull a win here (i have no idea how being capped at 30% would effect that)

  13. #9
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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    Quote Originally Posted by SutterCain View Post
    i didn't quote your 2nd paragraph, because i'm not going to get involved with debating "plot devices"...that isn't to say that there aren't convoluted plot holes within the series, including some of the points you made that i don't necessarily disagree with...but i'm just taking everything at face value...call me lazy or simple minded for doing so, but i have no interest in delving so deeply into this manga that i wanna get into the authors head or thought process

    now i'd also like to note a few more key points...i'm well aware of the fact that the difference in raw stats between an awakened being and a warrior are vastly different, hence why i said comparing the 2 are like comparing apples and oranges...however, awakened beings have no potential and are plateaued at whatever power level they awaken into...whereas warriors continue to grow stronger, and are able to release their youki in ways that effect their speed/strength/special ability so as to give them advantages in certain situations...otherwise, i'd think that awakened being hunter parties would require more & stronger warriors to even have a chance of succeeding

    i also never said that a warrior in general would/should have a chance against their awakened counterpart...in fact, i said that if raphaela and rigaldo were in the same generation they would not be counterparts (well, raphaela was [probably] a rank 2 as rigaldo, but given what we know about alicia & beth, that was most likely nothing more than a formality)...the overall point i was making was that, i believe the jump from no.2 to no.1 is probably quite large, and given the difference in their capability as warriors & what i said above about a warriors potential, it isn't all that unbelievable that raphaela would pull a win here (i have no idea how being capped at 30% would effect that)

    Unproven facts, once again this is called rationalizing. We don't know every method an awakened being uses to apply there Yoki. While we do know they don't seem to get any stronger after awakening nothing aside from that fact has been really proven. Even if a claymore invests their Yoki into a certain attribute it means nothing. Miria's phantom is a pinnacle example of such a thing. Miria is considered faster then Rafaela, having an A+ ranking, when she invests a huge amount of Yoki into her speed attribute she produces the Phantom Technique which is fast enough to surpass any warrior at the time, it'd be boon to say the speed boost is A+(her raw stat) to S+ but even if it were she wasn't as fast as Rigardo. That means when heightening her Yoki to it's utmost she still couldn't match his speed. Rafaela is slower then Miria and only has comparable Yoki. If we apply the same logic even releasing her maximum controllable Yoki her level of attribute is not going to jump from A to SSS for example. The same could be said for every attribute, yes there's going to be increase but not up to the level of a single digit AB. IF warriors could generate the same level of power as high end AB's the organization wouldn't have any need to create awakened beings in the first place.

    Also you do realize what this is right? This is not Rigardo the Claymore vs Rafeala. This is Rigardo the awakened being vs an unawakened Rafeala, (it confused me too.) The Databooks actually showed that the jump between a number two and a number one aren't always that big if you don't account for special abilities which counteract one another. Irene and Teresa are actually not even that vastly far apart. Irene is in fact somewhat stronger then Rafaela, enough so that It would be reasonable to say that she could defeat Rafaela. Ophelia was also stronger then Rafaela in several area's as well. So the jump between no.1 and the other single digits isn't always massive but it has the potential to be either due to raw power, special ability or both. They may have more overall potential (which creates the difference between AO's and No.2') but that is something that factors in only AFTER awakening.

    In Rafaela's case she's a well rounded all A student, just like the organization raised her to be and that is all. Unless Yagi tells us otherwise there isn't anything special about her other then Her Yoki suppression ability and her high end balance of attributes.

    She loses no matter how you look at it, 30% or 80% doesn't matter.

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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    I have a thing or two to say on this matter, you can read the long version by clicking on the spoiler or you can read the short version which is - even 0% Rafaela would defeat awakened Rigaldo.
    Spoiler: Quote wars and wall of text show

  15. #11
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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    This fight is just like saying Beth vs Rigaldo,
    Beth is technically a #1 and has the #2 Rank as a formality just like Rafaela and Lucellia, and would anyone think that Alicia or Lucellia would lose to Rigaldo?

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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    Quote Originally Posted by SaphG1 View Post
    Unproven facts, once again this is called rationalizing. We don't know every method an awakened being uses to apply there Yoki. While we do know they don't seem to get any stronger after awakening nothing aside from that fact has been really proven. Even if a claymore invests their Yoki into a certain attribute it means nothing. Miria's phantom is a pinnacle example of such a thing. Miria is considered faster then Rafaela, having an A+ ranking, when she invests a huge amount of Yoki into her speed attribute she produces the Phantom Technique which is fast enough to surpass any warrior at the time, it'd be boon to say the speed boost is A+(her raw stat) to S+ but even if it were she wasn't as fast as Rigardo. That means when heightening her Yoki to it's utmost she still couldn't match his speed. Rafaela is slower then Miria and only has comparable Yoki. If we apply the same logic even releasing her maximum controllable Yoki her level of attribute is not going to jump from A to SSS for example. The same could be said for every attribute, yes there's going to be increase but not up to the level of a single digit AB. IF warriors could generate the same level of power as high end AB's the organization wouldn't have any need to create awakened beings in the first place.
    i'm not really sure what your point is here...claymores in general aren't able to match the raw power of an awakened being, even at the height of their skill - got it. the point i was making was that there seems to be an unquantifiable effect on a warrior when they push their power to their limit that may give them momentary advantages in battle...i am not rationalizing anything, i am basing this off the fact that the "+" indicator next to a warriors stat does not necessarily mean that they have more raw power in that regard over other warriors, but that they are more proficient under the right circumstances

    Quote Originally Posted by SaphG1 View Post
    Also you do realize what this is right? This is not Rigardo the Claymore vs Rafeala. This is Rigardo the awakened being vs an unawakened Rafeala, (it confused me too.) The Databooks actually showed that the jump between a number two and a number one aren't always that big if you don't account for special abilities which counteract one another. Irene and Teresa are actually not even that vastly far apart. Irene is in fact somewhat stronger then Rafaela, enough so that It would be reasonable to say that she could defeat Rafaela. Ophelia was also stronger then Rafaela in several area's as well. So the jump between no.1 and the other single digits isn't always massive but it has the potential to be either due to raw power, special ability or both. They may have more overall potential (which creates the difference between AO's and No.2') but that is something that factors in only AFTER awakening.

    In Rafaela's case she's a well rounded all A student, just like the organization raised her to be and that is all. Unless Yagi tells us otherwise there isn't anything special about her other then Her Yoki suppression ability and her high end balance of attributes.

    She loses no matter how you look at it, 30% or 80% doesn't matter.
    i'd like to know where you're getting this idea that irene is stronger than rafaela, we've seen no inidcation of this...irene was indeed very powerful, but we have no real indication that she was no.1 material...and in what ways was ophelia stronger than rafaela?

    & yes, i am aware that this is claymore rafaela vs AB rigaldo...i've already stated several times how i feel about this, and you can disagree (& call me stupid if you like), but you haven't offered me anything other than "power levels are based on character importance"...again, that very well may be true, but i'm not bothering to go there

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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    Quote Originally Posted by SutterCain View Post
    i'm not really sure what your point is here...claymores in general aren't able to match the raw power of an awakened being, even at the height of their skill - got it. the point i was making was that there seems to be an unquantifiable effect on a warrior when they push their power to their limit that may give them momentary advantages in battle...i am not rationalizing anything, i am basing this off the fact that the "+" indicator next to a warriors stat does not necessarily mean that they have more raw power in that regard over other warriors, but that they are more proficient under the right circumstances



    i'd like to know where you're getting this idea that irene is stronger than rafaela, we've seen no inidcation of this...irene was indeed very powerful, but we have no real indication that she was no.1 material...and in what ways was ophelia stronger than rafaela?

    & yes, i am aware that this is claymore rafaela vs AB rigaldo...i've already stated several times how i feel about this, and you can disagree (& call me stupid if you like), but you haven't offered me anything other than "power levels are based on character importance"...again, that very well may be true, but i'm not bothering to go there
    well the movie pretty much showed irene getting assassinated via rafeala without her arms to defend her. which we still have yet to know whether or not irene is live or dead. its all implied.

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    Re: Rafaela vs Rigardo

    one point i'd like to bring up clare is rank 47 and shes alot stronger than most claymores so we cant conclude anything by what rank they were i think raf we own him tbh but it'd be a good fight either way

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