Rafaela vs Rigardo

[Miyagi]

Rafaela was as strong as her sister Luciela who was an abyssal one. Rigardo, "The Lion King", was #2 of male generation who was able to kill single-digit claymores in a heartbeat.

Location: Pieta, the place where Clare fought Rigardo

- Rafaela is allowed to release up to 30% of her yoki

- Rigardo has access to his awakened form

[Yomaslayer 95]

Rigardo, because he is very experienced in using his awakened form, and i highly doubt rafaela, as strong as she is, is capable of catching up to him with just 30% yoki.
If she was allowed to go to her limit, i think there is a 50-50 chance either of them will win.

[SaphG1]

Neither, They see each other fall in love and propagate Hell kittens the old fashioned way. cats unite!

But seriously, Rafaela would beat him hands down. She's considered on par with Isley and Riful and even if Isley is the strongest of the three that doesn't mean that the other two Abyssal's were so much weaker then Isley that a number 2 could take them them down. The AO's are all comparable powers, capable of killing one another (they have to fight eachother seriously), if he couldn't take on Isley he doesn't stand a chance against the others either. From what we've been shown that scale of power is very far above number 2's even though you could say they are arguably the pinnacle of power for a 'normal' awakened beings.

[Yomaslayer 95]

I see your point, but taking down an awakened nr 2, and just using 30% of your yoki?
Rafaela is strong don't get me wrong, but i think you are overestimating Rafaela a bit.
Let me rephrase my previous post, Rigardo vs 30% yoki Rafaela, Rigardo wins but barely
Rigardo vs Rafaela going to her limit, Rafaela wins

[SaphG1]

I see your point, but taking down an awakened nr 2, and just using 30% of your yoki?
Rafaela is strong don't get me wrong, but i think you are overestimating Rafaela a bit.
Let me rephrase my previous post, Rigardo vs 30% yoki Rafaela, Rigardo wins but barely
Rigardo vs Rafaela going to her limit, Rafaela wins

I see what your going for...i thought we meant an awakened Refaela(abyssal level arguably) restrained to 30%. If we're talking about 1v1 awakened number two vs an unawakened number one then the number two is going to win easily. Teresa is simply a special case which you can't compare to others of her rank. Though number two's lack that X factor that pushes them to abyssal level, in life they are the closest comparable beings to a number one. Very often that comparison is very close in scale as well coming down to slight differences in overall power and ability. Claymore Refaela would probably only just beat out claymore Rigardo IF she could at all. Awakened Rigardo could take Rafaela regardless of how much Yoki she released, 30% or to limit it wouldn't matter.

Number 2 is a cursed number in Claymore, and if you have it even for a moment then something bad will happen to you. Number two's like Rigardo and Agatha are used a 'place markers' to show growth of the main characters, so they will lose no matter how absolutely ridiculous that would be. Lets face it, A fully Awakened Clare directed awakening or not shouldn't have had anywhere near the power to take out Rigardo, that he lost to her in Pieta is like a bad joke. it would have been like that number 40 something in the witches maw severely injuring/killing Dauf when she attacked him. Clare and company won because they were the main characters, it a plot device pure and simple. Sadly the trend show that no.2 always ends up being the fodder despite the grand implication of being the next best thing beneath a number one or an AO.


Irene: Dead
Rigardo: awakened and killed
Agatha: awakened and killed
Rosemary: awakened and killed
Roxanne: awakened and killed
Rafeala: awakened and 'dead'
Priscella: awakened

Need i say more...Yagi hates no.2's. Thus as long as Refaela was a more important character she has a chance to beat Rigardo

[SutterCain]

I see what your going for...i thought we meant an awakened Refaela(abyssal level arguably) restrained to 30%. If we're talking about 1v1 awakened number two vs an unawakened number one then the number two is going to win easily. Teresa is simply a special case which you can't compare to others of her rank. Though number two's lack that X factor that pushes them to abyssal level, in life they are the closest comparable beings to a number one. Very often that comparison is very close in scale as well coming down to slight differences in overall power and ability. Claymore Refaela would probably only just beat out claymore Rigardo IF she could at all. Awakened Rigardo could take Rafaela regardless of how much Yoki she released, 30% or to limit it wouldn't matter.

I think that's stretching it a little bit. I never got the impression that a No.2 was that close in power to a No.1.

Consider the fact that the ghosts destroyed Agatha without breaking a sweat/getting injured, vs. the fact that they didn't stand a chance in hell against Hysteria without those absurd circumstances. Now I know...talking awakened beings vs warriors is like comparing apples and oranges...but I would think that if a No.2 warrior was as powerful as you're implying that they might be more impressive as awakened beings.

This is just my personal opinion that I don't have any real proof to back up, but back when Miria mentioned that there was a large jump from No.6 to No.5, I assumed it was like that for all the higher ranks going down (large gaps b/w No.4 & No.3 and so on). Ophelia was an above average 4 (and from what we can tell from the data books, easily outclassed Noel & Sofia), yet her struggle against Ilena was pitiful.

So, all that being said...I tend to think that Raphaela could talk Rigaldo...or that any No.1 could take an awakened No.2 by themselves.

[SaphG1]

As i said No.2 is a plot device and always has been. I'm pretty sure i mentioned in the paragraph right beneath the one you decided to answer from that they aren't impressive because they are always used as 'growth points' for characters or ways they can demonstrate their new 'strengths'. You shouldn't quote only a single section of whats written for a counterpoint, it makes your position much less valid.

Now to speak about the databooks you mentioned they basically counter your thinking on their own.

Remember Katea? The number 32 who was awakened in the witches maw and killed by Dauf. Well the Databook gave her stats after awakening, Lets comepare them to an unawakened Rafaela

Katea (awakened)
Yoki: A
Agility: S
Strength: S
Invulnerability: A
Intelligence: S


Rafaela:
Yoki: A
Agility: A
Muscular Strength: A
Spirit: A
Perception: A
Leadership: C

Dauf
Yoki: SSS+
Agility: S (Special Level of Ability)
Strength: SSS+
Invulnerability: SSS
Intelligence: C

Rigardo might not have been as invulnerable as Dauf or as strong but there is no doubt that their Yoki was in the least comparable and his speed in intellect easily dwarfed Dauf's own by a large margin. Katea after awakening becomes comparable to a number one in attributes but a single digit goes so far beyond that its ridiculous. There is no way a single digit should have a chance against an awakened counterpart, number 1's included. The few that have done such a thing have always been special in some case, OR the awakened being no matter what the number has just been fodder.

This is one of Claymores greatest flaws(a common one), it introduces a system of implied logic but then smash it to pieces on specific occasions for main characters, then tried to reestablish said system after the conflict.

• Rigardo should have killed everyone in Pieta. Miria's speed even with Phantom shouldn't have been remotely a match for him, Nor should Clare's in partial awakening. Yet somehow he was much slower and weaker then he SHOULD have been. Everything about him SHOULD have been so vastly beyond Claymores that he was unstoppable...but he wasn't.

• Hysteria should have obliterated all the ghosts, she's even faster then Rigardo by once again a massive margin and yet somehow she's slower after awakening then before it and for all her new power fails to land a single critical blow from enemies who aren't even fast enough to block her...yet she died.

• The awakened being that fought Ophelia and Clare should have obliterated them both with ease yet she too ends up with her head cut off because...she didn't tear Ophelia's head all the way off...Former warrior with experience herself in fighting Yoma and awakened presumably and she doesn't remove the head...(lame sh#*t)

Every time it comes to the main cast the implied logic created by Yagi will be thrown out the window. That's because no one would accept it is the logical outcome of such battles were to happen. It's really a shounen thing, the good guys will always win over impossible odds "fate is always on their side (read Medaka box, its satires so nicely their). Fans like to try and rationalize these happenings but trying to alter the logic made by the creators in order to cover for what they intrinsically recognize as a massive flaw in the plot, thus your argument.

The real Rigardo, without being watered down for the main cast would utterly obliterate Rafaela, she has absolutely no chance.

Endnote: Any characters real power level is ranked on their importance to the story, believe it!(see what i did there?)

[SutterCain]

i didn't quote your 2nd paragraph, because i'm not going to get involved with debating "plot devices"...that isn't to say that there aren't convoluted plot holes within the series, including some of the points you made that i don't necessarily disagree with...but i'm just taking everything at face value...call me lazy or simple minded for doing so, but i have no interest in delving so deeply into this manga that i wanna get into the authors head or thought process

now i'd also like to note a few more key points...i'm well aware of the fact that the difference in raw stats between an awakened being and a warrior are vastly different, hence why i said comparing the 2 are like comparing apples and oranges...however, awakened beings have no potential and are plateaued at whatever power level they awaken into...whereas warriors continue to grow stronger, and are able to release their youki in ways that effect their speed/strength/special ability so as to give them advantages in certain situations...otherwise, i'd think that awakened being hunter parties would require more & stronger warriors to even have a chance of succeeding

i also never said that a warrior in general would/should have a chance against their awakened counterpart...in fact, i said that if raphaela and rigaldo were in the same generation they would not be counterparts (well, raphaela was [probably] a rank 2 as rigaldo, but given what we know about alicia & beth, that was most likely nothing more than a formality)...the overall point i was making was that, i believe the jump from no.2 to no.1 is probably quite large, and given the difference in their capability as warriors & what i said above about a warriors potential, it isn't all that unbelievable that raphaela would pull a win here (i have no idea how being capped at 30% would effect that)

[SaphG1]

i didn't quote your 2nd paragraph, because i'm not going to get involved with debating "plot devices"...that isn't to say that there aren't convoluted plot holes within the series, including some of the points you made that i don't necessarily disagree with...but i'm just taking everything at face value...call me lazy or simple minded for doing so, but i have no interest in delving so deeply into this manga that i wanna get into the authors head or thought process

now i'd also like to note a few more key points...i'm well aware of the fact that the difference in raw stats between an awakened being and a warrior are vastly different, hence why i said comparing the 2 are like comparing apples and oranges...however, awakened beings have no potential and are plateaued at whatever power level they awaken into...whereas warriors continue to grow stronger, and are able to release their youki in ways that effect their speed/strength/special ability so as to give them advantages in certain situations...otherwise, i'd think that awakened being hunter parties would require more & stronger warriors to even have a chance of succeeding

i also never said that a warrior in general would/should have a chance against their awakened counterpart...in fact, i said that if raphaela and rigaldo were in the same generation they would not be counterparts (well, raphaela was [probably] a rank 2 as rigaldo, but given what we know about alicia & beth, that was most likely nothing more than a formality)...the overall point i was making was that, i believe the jump from no.2 to no.1 is probably quite large, and given the difference in their capability as warriors & what i said above about a warriors potential, it isn't all that unbelievable that raphaela would pull a win here (i have no idea how being capped at 30% would effect that)

Unproven facts, once again this is called rationalizing. We don't know every method an awakened being uses to apply there Yoki. While we do know they don't seem to get any stronger after awakening nothing aside from that fact has been really proven. Even if a claymore invests their Yoki into a certain attribute it means nothing. Miria's phantom is a pinnacle example of such a thing. Miria is considered faster then Rafaela, having an A+ ranking, when she invests a huge amount of Yoki into her speed attribute she produces the Phantom Technique which is fast enough to surpass any warrior at the time, it'd be boon to say the speed boost is A+(her raw stat) to S+ but even if it were she wasn't as fast as Rigardo. That means when heightening her Yoki to it's utmost she still couldn't match his speed. Rafaela is slower then Miria and only has comparable Yoki. If we apply the same logic even releasing her maximum controllable Yoki her level of attribute is not going to jump from A to SSS for example. The same could be said for every attribute, yes there's going to be increase but not up to the level of a single digit AB. IF warriors could generate the same level of power as high end AB's the organization wouldn't have any need to create awakened beings in the first place.

Also you do realize what this is right? This is not Rigardo the Claymore vs Rafeala. This is Rigardo the awakened being vs an unawakened Rafeala, (it confused me too.) The Databooks actually showed that the jump between a number two and a number one aren't always that big if you don't account for special abilities which counteract one another. Irene and Teresa are actually not even that vastly far apart. Irene is in fact somewhat stronger then Rafaela, enough so that It would be reasonable to say that she could defeat Rafaela. Ophelia was also stronger then Rafaela in several area's as well. So the jump between no.1 and the other single digits isn't always massive but it has the potential to be either due to raw power, special ability or both. They may have more overall potential (which creates the difference between AO's and No.2') but that is something that factors in only AFTER awakening.

In Rafaela's case she's a well rounded all A student, just like the organization raised her to be and that is all. Unless Yagi tells us otherwise there isn't anything special about her other then Her Yoki suppression ability and her high end balance of attributes.

She loses no matter how you look at it, 30% or 80% doesn't matter.

[Goral]

I have a thing or two to say on this matter, you can read the long version by clicking on the spoiler or you can read the short version which is - even 0% Rafaela would defeat awakened Rigaldo.

i thought we meant an awakened Refaela(abyssal level arguably) restrained to 30%.

lol
Firstly, we don't even know there is a difference between Claymore using 30% youki release and awakened Claymore having his power reduced to 30% of his maximum (the way I see it if there is a difference it's rather small). Secondly, you've made a very, very strange assumption - just saying.

If we're talking about 1v1 awakened number two vs an unawakened number one then the number two is going to win easily.

I strongly disagree. For starters, we've never really seen a #1 fighting awakened #2 except for Rosemary vs. Teresa fight (but bringing someone who pwned Priscilla into this is pointless so let's leave it at that). We've seen however unawakened #6 fighting awakened #1 and winning. Now, I know there were some special circumstances for that but the fact is, someone who never was #1 material defeated an AO. I would think that a really strong #1 (at least of an abyssal potential) could do no worse in a fight with Rigaldo.

Though number two's lack that X factor that pushes them to abyssal level, in life they are the closest comparable beings to a number one.

Yeah, and the speed of Helios 2 solar probe is the closest (macroscopic and not counting small projectiles) human made thing to the speed of light and yet it's over 4000 slower. In other words - that's no argument. Rigaldo became Isley's fanboy after they've fought (which became clear in ES3) and explicitly stated that Isley was faster than him despite being bigger and stronger and we also have Isley's commentary in Claymore special where he said he's superior to him (heck, even MiB thought so).

Claymore Refaela would probably only just beat out claymore Rigardo IF she could at all.

lol
First you're saying that Rafaela would beat 30% Rigaldo hands down and now you're saying she could have trouble... What's with the sudden change of your opinion?

Awakened Rigardo could take Rafaela regardless of how much Yoki she released, 30% or to limit it wouldn't matter.

I couldn't disagree more for reasons stated above and below. I'll also add that Galatea close to her limit (50% to be precise if we're to believe DB) could go toe-to-toe with Duff (who for all we know could have been a more powerful AB than Rigaldo if only because of his super tough armour and ability to shoot spikes) and she was at least a class below Raphaela. AFAWK Raphaela would overwhelm even Irene (since she was sent to kill her armed version hence she was confident she could beat QS) who I also believe would win against awakened Rigaldo. Not to mention that Miria, who at the time was several classes below Galatea (which she stated herself when she told there is a HUGE gap between #6 and #5 and above) could hold off Rigaldo for quite some time so Galatea would surely do it easier and Raphaela even more so.

Number 2 is a cursed number in Claymore, and if you have it even for a moment then something bad will happen to you. Number two's like Rigardo and Agatha are used a 'place markers' to show growth of the main characters, so they will lose no matter how absolutely ridiculous that would be.

I disagree. Rigaldo got killed because his enemy was too strong (i.e. Clare using a fraction of Teresa's power). Yes, Clare had plot armour and yes Rigaldo was used to show how superb she was compared to him but that wasn't ridiculous at all IMO. The same goes for Agatha who had to deal with a squad of 1 super strong warrior, 1 very strong warrior, 2 strong warriors and 3 above average warriors. Not to mention they were cloaked and before she knew what hit her she was laying on the ground. I think that even Irene herself would defeat Agatha, not to mention Teresa's death squad (so Irene + Priscilla +N&S) which in your opinion would lose to the ghosts. Heck, Miata herself would probably kill Agatha if she was focused only on that task and Priscilla is definitely stronger than Miata (assumption but with rather strong arguments backing it up, I can elaborate if you would disagree with me).

Now to speak about the databooks you mentioned they basically counter your thinking on their own.

Not really. It's rather clear that the Claymore stats were measured in 0% state (if only for the fact that Teresa never released her youki as far as MiB knew, the same goes for Priscilla whose stats were measured before she awakened and some other warriors and it's the only thing that makes sense). On the other hand, ABs have a different scale where even the weakest ones have at least A but that is their maximum power. Claymores like Ophelia however can jump into S category by releasing their youki, hence Ophelia could defeat SS+ AB (the Gonahl one) and SSS+ AB (Hilda) and most probably, Teresa defeated someone with EX youki (Rosemary, I doubt there is SSSS+ stat and I'm pretty sure she was stronger than Duff, but even if not, even someone with S youki shouldn't be able to OVERWHELM SSS+ one). The point is, everyone were measured using the same scale so comparing Noel and Sophia to Ophelia should be a good indicator of their powers (even if it's not 100% accurate) and stats of ABs have nothing to do with it.

Rigardo might not have been as invulnerable as Dauf or as strong but there is no doubt that their Yoki was in the least comparable and his speed in intellect easily dwarfed Dauf's own by a large margin. Katea after awakening becomes comparable to a number one in attributes but a single digit goes so far beyond that its ridiculous. There is no way a single digit should have a chance against an awakened counterpart, number 1's included. The few that have done such a thing have always been special in some case, OR the awakened being no matter what the number has just been fodder.

So in other words, "I'm right and if I'm not right I'm still right", lol. Because there are enough examples that prove you wrong (Hilda or Gonahl AB or Rosemary or Agatha who almost pissed her pants when Miata pulled her "hair") you're throwing them out so that your statement could become true. Bravo.

Rigardo should have killed everyone in Pieta. Miria's speed even with Phantom shouldn't have been remotely a match for him, Nor should Clare's in partial awakening. Yet somehow he was much slower and weaker then he SHOULD have been. Everything about him SHOULD have been so vastly beyond Claymores that he was unstoppable...but he wasn't.

lol
So because Rigaldo wasn't as fast as awakened Hysteria you're suggesting that Yagi made a mistake and should have written it differently? That's ridiculous. Just because his speed didn't match your expectations it doesn't mean Yagi was being inconsistent. As for Miria, just as Irene was a queen of speed when it came to swinging her arm, Miria was a queen of speed when it came to running and thanks to that could rise up in ranks. Still, neither Irene nor Miria were #1 materials. As for Clare, she has Teresa's power inside her, waiting to be released. What's so strange she could pwn Rigaldo? There is no inconsistency here.

Hysteria should have obliterated all the ghosts, she's even faster then Rigardo by once again a massive margin and yet somehow she's slower after awakening then before it and for all her new power fails to land a single critical blow from enemies who aren't even fast enough to block her...yet she died.

On this I agree and that's the only valid argument you've made so far IMO. The thing is, it's a very recent example and I don't see how it could change anything in a situation written many years before it.

The awakened being that fought Ophelia and Clare should have obliterated them both with ease yet she too ends up with her head cut off because...she didn't tear Ophelia's head all the way off...Former warrior with experience herself in fighting Yoma and awakened presumably and she doesn't remove the head...(lame sh#*t)

It was a close fight. Ophelia could easily dodge AB's range attacks without releasing youki (Clare also, probably with the help of PYS). Even when she wasn't paying attention to Gonahl AB (but wanted to catch up with Clare) she could dodge her attacks and block them - without releasing any youki. If Ophelia didn't rush this fight so much I'm sure she would win it. She could change her position instantly, bewildering AB, if she didn't laugh who knows how it would end. Anyway, she needed to cover a much longer distance (relatively to her size) than AB in order to kill her (she had to decapitate her while AB all had to do was to grab her with one tentacle). She also had to use more force to kill her (AB had an armor, even on her head). And she most probably never released more than 30% youki during this fight, if she had she would be even quicker and stronger while being still a Claymore.
As for Ophelia being defeated, this AB was so weak that he couldn't rip her head off just by twisting it. Ophelia SURVIVED a twist *like this* made to her NECK by awakened single digit. That in itself is something. How many Claymores would have still their heads on their necks if sth like that happened to them ? I doubt this awakened used only enough force to twist her neck, what would be the point of that? He wouldn't even know how much strength he has to use.
Also there is Clare's commentary: "The battle is over. Damn! That was quicker than I thought" and "She suffered almost no damage. I can't believe she could possess so much power." It's obvious that she was talking about Ophelia and she knew from the start that Ophelia would win this fight and who the real monster was. So when Clare compared youki level of AB and Ophelia, Ophelia's was stronger.

The real Rigardo, without being watered down for the main cast would utterly obliterate Rafaela, she has absolutely no chance.

Rafaela isn't Clare or Miria, even if I would agree that Clare defeated him only because of her plot armour for all we know Rafaela would own current Miria without even releasing her youki (and that's more than likely seeing Clare's fight with her).

But using the excuse "Rigaldo lost because of Clare's plot armour" is far from being accurate. Yes, that is somewhat true but unlike in a Miria vs. Hysteria fight Clare had actually bigger potential than her opponent and bigger youki reserves. Rigaldo was just outclassed. In other words Clare is a special case, aside from being a main character, as usual a protagonist has immense power (usually hidden) and she was just much stronger than Rigaldo, contrary to you saying that it wasn't the case. Her plot armour was working only at the start when Rigaldo could have killed her before he went after the bigger fish (but even here I would argue that he would not be able to do that because of PYS and QS which would give Clare the time to get serious). Miria on the other hand was never #1 material so her winning over Hysteria was utterly ridiculous and that's the only thing we will probably agree on. Still it doesn't have much to do with our discussion.

Miria is considered faster then Rafaela, having an A+ ranking, when she invests a huge amount of Yoki into her speed attribute she produces the Phantom Technique which is fast enough to surpass any warrior at the time, it'd be boon to say the speed boost is A+(her raw stat) to S+ but even if it were she wasn't as fast as Rigardo.

That's simply not true (not counting the fact that Rafalea's stat in databook is A not A+). It was never stated that Miria was faster than Raphaela, the above statement is just your opinion. And I think that even current Miria would be pwned by Raphaela. And that's because:

1) In a Clare vs. Miria fight Miria couldn't do much against Clare who wasn't even using her WC. And once Clare used her WC Clare easily matched Miria's phantom and Miria had no choice but to step down. Now, in a Clare vs. Raphaela fight Raphaela could easily counter Clare's WC. Now I know that it wasn't entirely in the real world but I believe that what we've seen was accurate. So 0% Raphaela >> 0% Miria.

2) Rafaela AFAWK has never used her youki maybe except for the very beginning (that's because she had to do the soul link which required youki suppression, later she didn't release it to try and save her sister one last time) so any stats MiB had would be rather inaccurate. So in my book her stats are much better than Miria's who had B+ and A+ because of her half-awakening and usage of youki to the limit.

3) I've been using this argument for years but it is true there are gaps in Claymore rankings, especially between #11 and #9, #6 and #5 and #3 and #1. There are too many examples to ignore it. At least it was true in Clare's generation and that is relevant generation for our discussion.

That means when heightening her Yoki to it's utmost she still couldn't match his speed.

Actually she could and she did. She tired herself out quickly though and then Rigaldo became faster again but Miria was matching his speed (and if there was a difference it was miniscule).

Rafaela is slower then Miria and only has comparable Yoki.

That's just your opinion unsupported by anything even remotely concrete. Rafaela easily countering the speed of Clare's WC (which Miria could match at best) says something entirely different. As for comparable youki, also not true, she was at least a class lower (at least, since Miria had B+ after she half-awakened so her measurements went up by default and Rafaela's stats couldn't be accurately measured because of her cloaking).

her level of attribute is not going to jump from A to SSS for example.

OK, why not? Anything to support this besides "because I think so" ? In fact there are many examples which show that many Claymores jump to SSS+ category once they release their youki (Ophelia, Galatea, Clare, Miria and seveal other).

IF warriors could generate the same level of power as high end AB's the organization wouldn't have any need to create awakened beings in the first place.

The problem here is that Claymores using their youki sooner or later awaken unless they half-awaken (whcih MiB don't know about). They're too unstable weapons, hence they preferred soul-linked Abyssals rather than warriors that could go on rampage any minute. It's been clearly stated by Rubel that partially awakened Claymores was just the thing MiB were looking for. I.e. warriors as strong as ABs but completely stable and without the flaw that soul link had.

Irene and Teresa are actually not even that vastly far apart.

On paper (i.e. in the databooks) yes. The truth was, Teresa was far beyond Irene in every possible way. Which shows how inaccurate MiB's stats were when it came to warriors who never released their youki (and Rafaela also goes into that category). The same goes for Priscilla. By your line of thought Priscilla as a Claymore was not much stronger than Rafaela and had not much more youki at her disposal before she awakened than Galatea or Ophelia. Which clearly is not true. Teresa had more problems with her than she had with Rosemary who was of at least SSS+ level so Priscilla at 80% (which Teresa fought) was definitely way beyond that.

Irene is in fact somewhat stronger then Rafaela, enough so that It would be reasonable to say that she could defeat Rafaela.

lol
That's just your opinion. The (real) fact is it's more unreasonable to say that Irene would defeat Rafaela than otherwise. After all MiB knew exactly what Rafaela would be dealing with and yet they were confident she could deal with her. As was Rafaela and even Irene (her words "as strong as you are..." which was probably her educated guess only unless she heard about her earlier).

Ophelia was also stronger then Rafaela in several area's as well.

What? Too many times you're writing your wishful thinking instead of going with the facts. Absolutely nothing indicates that and everything indicates something exactly opposite.

that is something that factors in only AFTER awakening.

That's just ridiculous but I've replied to that already above.

[SpeedyIX]

This fight is just like saying Beth vs Rigaldo,
Beth is technically a #1 and has the #2 Rank as a formality just like Rafaela and Lucellia, and would anyone think that Alicia or Lucellia would lose to Rigaldo?

[SutterCain]

Unproven facts, once again this is called rationalizing. We don't know every method an awakened being uses to apply there Yoki. While we do know they don't seem to get any stronger after awakening nothing aside from that fact has been really proven. Even if a claymore invests their Yoki into a certain attribute it means nothing. Miria's phantom is a pinnacle example of such a thing. Miria is considered faster then Rafaela, having an A+ ranking, when she invests a huge amount of Yoki into her speed attribute she produces the Phantom Technique which is fast enough to surpass any warrior at the time, it'd be boon to say the speed boost is A+(her raw stat) to S+ but even if it were she wasn't as fast as Rigardo. That means when heightening her Yoki to it's utmost she still couldn't match his speed. Rafaela is slower then Miria and only has comparable Yoki. If we apply the same logic even releasing her maximum controllable Yoki her level of attribute is not going to jump from A to SSS for example. The same could be said for every attribute, yes there's going to be increase but not up to the level of a single digit AB. IF warriors could generate the same level of power as high end AB's the organization wouldn't have any need to create awakened beings in the first place.

i'm not really sure what your point is here...claymores in general aren't able to match the raw power of an awakened being, even at the height of their skill - got it. the point i was making was that there seems to be an unquantifiable effect on a warrior when they push their power to their limit that may give them momentary advantages in battle...i am not rationalizing anything, i am basing this off the fact that the "+" indicator next to a warriors stat does not necessarily mean that they have more raw power in that regard over other warriors, but that they are more proficient under the right circumstances

Also you do realize what this is right? This is not Rigardo the Claymore vs Rafeala. This is Rigardo the awakened being vs an unawakened Rafeala, (it confused me too.) The Databooks actually showed that the jump between a number two and a number one aren't always that big if you don't account for special abilities which counteract one another. Irene and Teresa are actually not even that vastly far apart. Irene is in fact somewhat stronger then Rafaela, enough so that It would be reasonable to say that she could defeat Rafaela. Ophelia was also stronger then Rafaela in several area's as well. So the jump between no.1 and the other single digits isn't always massive but it has the potential to be either due to raw power, special ability or both. They may have more overall potential (which creates the difference between AO's and No.2') but that is something that factors in only AFTER awakening.

In Rafaela's case she's a well rounded all A student, just like the organization raised her to be and that is all. Unless Yagi tells us otherwise there isn't anything special about her other then Her Yoki suppression ability and her high end balance of attributes.

She loses no matter how you look at it, 30% or 80% doesn't matter.

i'd like to know where you're getting this idea that irene is stronger than rafaela, we've seen no inidcation of this...irene was indeed very powerful, but we have no real indication that she was no.1 material...and in what ways was ophelia stronger than rafaela?

& yes, i am aware that this is claymore rafaela vs AB rigaldo...i've already stated several times how i feel about this, and you can disagree (& call me stupid if you like), but you haven't offered me anything other than "power levels are based on character importance"...again, that very well may be true, but i'm not bothering to go there

[kaidedshard]

i'm not really sure what your point is here...claymores in general aren't able to match the raw power of an awakened being, even at the height of their skill - got it. the point i was making was that there seems to be an unquantifiable effect on a warrior when they push their power to their limit that may give them momentary advantages in battle...i am not rationalizing anything, i am basing this off the fact that the "+" indicator next to a warriors stat does not necessarily mean that they have more raw power in that regard over other warriors, but that they are more proficient under the right circumstances



i'd like to know where you're getting this idea that irene is stronger than rafaela, we've seen no inidcation of this...irene was indeed very powerful, but we have no real indication that she was no.1 material...and in what ways was ophelia stronger than rafaela?

& yes, i am aware that this is claymore rafaela vs AB rigaldo...i've already stated several times how i feel about this, and you can disagree (& call me stupid if you like), but you haven't offered me anything other than "power levels are based on character importance"...again, that very well may be true, but i'm not bothering to go there

well the movie pretty much showed irene getting assassinated via rafeala without her arms to defend her. which we still have yet to know whether or not irene is live or dead. its all implied.