Madara's connection to Obito and Zetzu

[Revvo]

Idea on Madara's connection to Obito (if it was Madara's influence that turned Obito to evil):

It could be possible, that Black Zetzu is/was connected to Madara's spirit.
Assuming Zetzu is a creation of Madara to cultivate Shodaimes Dna, I could see the dead Madara keeping his soul from passing to the next world (maybe via rinnegan) while staying connected to black zetzu.

After rereading some old chapters, i noticed that it was black Zetzu that made decisions for himselfe and his white half.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/383/14

Black Zetzu also had information about the Sharingan that white Zetzu didn't have, which is weirde, since they are supposed to be one being.

In the Itachi vs Sasuke fight, Black Zetzu.... :


...notices that Sasuke beat Tsukuyomi before white Zetzu:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/388/13

...predicts amaterasu and perfectly explains it before seeing it:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/389
(note the line "or so i've heard", meaning he must have gotten that info from someone, while white zetzu didn't)

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/390/3

....think's it's strange that itachi didn't doge (again white zetzu didn't get it):
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/389/8

well black zetzu basicly knows every move of the two uchiha (which is strange) and notices every turn in battle immediately ( unlike white zetzu).


Finaly the most imortant part:
After Sasuke joins forces with Akatsuik Obito reports to Black Zetzu about recruting sasuke:

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/404/16

b-Zetzu: well?

Obito: everything went smothly.

b-Zetzu: glad to hear.

while we now know that tobi is obito, this scene gives me the impression that b-Zetzu orderd Obito to get Sasuke and had him report about it.

if that is true Black-Zetzu was pulling the strings behind Akatsuki, or worked as some kind of middle man for possibly the real Madara (who was almost? dead).

The current events could mean Obito wants to backstab the real Madara and maybe Zetzu to become the 10-Tails host himselfe instead of a resurrected Madara.

As seen here the real Madra planed to be resurrected by Nagato instead of Kabuto! (interesting thing here is that Madara knows about Nagato, eventhough he was obviously dead. It could ofcourse be that Madara was still alive when NAgato was born, but since he planed to be saved from death by Nagato, the moment Nagato could do so (!!) it's more likely that he was already dead but still connected to the living world : through black Zetzu (?)):

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/559/2

since Madara thought that he was just now awakened by a Nagato who was just at that moment strong enough to do so ("little brat has grown") it also could be that balck Zetzu and Obito didn't keep him up to date, meaning they both want to betray him.

your thoughts on this?

[Notak]

What bugs me is that Madara's resurrection feels like one big plothole. If he already knew the seals to break Edo Tensei's control, why the hell would he want to be resurrected by the Rinnegan? The Edo Tensei makes him immortal with infinite chakra on top of that.
Couldn't he just have had someone Edo Tensei him and then plan to use the seals?

Of course, not everyone can perform Edo Tensei, especially not Tobi or Zetsu. But I don't see why he didn't atleast TRY to get a hold of the Edo Tensei. It's obviously superior to the Rinnegan jutsu as long as the resurrected knows the special seals. Which he of course did.

The Rinnegan jutsu brings you back as a fresh live mortal, and judging from how Edo Madara was owned several times in the war, he would have quickly returned to being dead anyway, lol.

[number12michael]

What bugs me is that Madara's resurrection is one big plothole. If he already knew the seals to break Edo Tensei's control, why the hell would he want to be resurrected by the Rinnegan? The Edo Tensei makes him immortal with infinite chakra on top of that.
Couldn't he just have had someone Edo Tensei him and then plan to use the seals?

Of course, not everyone can perform Edo Tensei, especially not Tobi or Zetsu. But I don't see why he didn't atleast TRY to get a hold of the Edo Tensei. It's obviously superior to the Rinnegan jutsu as long as the resurrected knows the special seals. Which he of course did.

The Rinnegan jutsu brings you back as a fresh live mortal, and judging from how Edo Madara was owned several times in the war, he would have quickly returned to being dead anyway, lol.

From they way i have read it theres a lot of Mystery behind how Edo tensei works....Kabuto said he still dose not know all the secrets of Edo Tensei but he has a pretty good idea of how it works....and sense only its creator (the 2end) and Orochimaru , were the only other ones to know the jutsu makes me believe it must be hard to learn or not many know of it or know how to preform it.

but maybe madara needed kabuto to be detracted in order to free himself

[Fox666]

The Rinnegan jutsu brings you back as a fresh live mortal, and judging from how Edo Madara was owned several times in the war, he would have quickly returned to being dead anyway, lol.

Madara was clearly taking advantage of the regeneration.

The Edo Tensei makes him immortal with infinite chakra on top of that.

Apparently people don't like being ressurected like that. Is it just a Tabu because it breaks the laws of nature?

In Madara's case, you risk being controller by the user of Edo Tensei, like Orochimaru used Harashima and Tobirama.

Couldn't he just have had someone Edo Tensei him and then plan to use the seals?

He could only use the seal on himself after Kabuto released it, otherwise Madara would still be under the disposal of Kabuto.

[tousendrinksbleach]

doesnt really matter...he just cant lose to anyone, so he will just wait for the summoner to try releasing the seal before freeing himself
+
he clearly knew more about edo tensei than kabuto did lol...since kabuto clearly had no idea one could just release himself from ET
but maybe he is like voldemort and want to achieve true immortality

ps : too bad only he knew how to rlease himself, if everyone did the battlefield would have become so funny lol

[Notak]

Madara was clearly taking advantage of the regeneration.

Good point. Although he is arrogant and might in turn have taken a blow due to that.

He could only use the seal on himself after Kabuto released it, otherwise Madara would still be under the disposal of Kabuto.

but maybe madara needed kabuto to be detracted in order to free himself

Yes you are both right, I didn't think of that. I thought the seals worked even if the summoner had not cancelled the Edo Tensei.

Then I stand corrected, the Rinne Tensei-resurrection should usually be the better jutsu for Madara.


Also Madara's connection to Obito? Like most people say, I guess that Madara could've found Obito with Zetsu's help, and chose to make him his Uchiha apprentice.
Or here's a twist, Madara KNEW all along about Obito's Kamui-potential, and is the reason why he chose him. The opportunity could have been perfect with the boulder crushing him.

Still, I want a good explanation as to why he chose Obito of all Uchiha. Why him really?
I don't necessarily expect Kishimoto to explain this, but damn who wouldn't wanna know?

[number12michael]

Good point. Although he is arrogant and might in turn have taken a blow due to that.





Yes you are both right, I didn't think of that. I thought the seals worked even if the summoner had not cancelled the Edo Tensei.

Then I stand corrected, the Rinne Tensei-resurrection should usually be the better jutsu for Madara.


Also Madara's connection to Obito? Like most people say, I guess that Madara could've found Obito with Zetsu's help, and chose to make him his Uchiha apprentice.
Or here's a twist, Madara KNEW all along about Obito's Kamui-potential, and is the reason why he chose him. The opportunity could have been perfect with the boulder crushing him.

Still, I want a good explanation as to why he chose Obito of all Uchiha. Why him really?
I don't necessarily expect Kishimoto to explain this, but damn who wouldn't wanna know?

maybe Obito has some genetic thing linked to the Sage of six paths.....remember Ginkaku and Kinkaku were like direct descendants of the sage

[hyper_megaman]

maybe Obito has some genetic thing linked to the Sage of six paths.....remember Ginkaku and Kinkaku were like direct descendants of the sage

obito does.

it's called being in the uchiha clan.

the whole point about them discussing kinkaku and ginkaku was because they weren't very explicitly related to the sage (by way of senju, uzumaki, uchiha, arguably hyuuga).


anyone who falls within the stereotype capabilities of those 4 surnames (assuming hyuuga is linked too) are definitely linked to the sage, with their blood way less diluted than the blood that kinkaku and ginkaku boasted.


so i think when he asked that question, it was 'why obito of all uchiha?'. all uchiha are linked to the sage, so this is a redundant factor in this discussion

[Fox666]

I believe that Kinkaku and Ginkaku have a connection to the Rikudo much greater than the Senju or Uchiha, otherwise such a thing as giving an human part of the Bijuus Chakra would already been done.

I am tempted to believe that Madara is heavy connected to Rikudo, and that Obito may be his grandson or something.

[Revvo]

uhm.... does anyone acctually want to discuss the topic? How did Madara know about Nagato and how did he get into contact with obito (through zetzu?).
.... but i got to agree Madara knowing the edo tensei seals is a bit weird....

[bebarber]

Madara knows about edotensei because it was invented by tobirama that was almost the same age of him.
Madara could be the cause of obito's accident, sending the rock's ninjas to them..
It seems that zetsu is under tobi not giving him orders..
Edotensei is a bad way to resurrect cause u are like a living corpse with the soul of another person... With nagato powers madara could be resurrected in a better and fresh way... That's why he was waiting for nagato to grow...

[Ryr]

What bugs me is that Madara's resurrection feels like one big plothole. If he already knew the seals to break Edo Tensei's control, why the hell would he want to be resurrected by the Rinnegan? The Edo Tensei makes him immortal with infinite chakra on top of that.

I think it's because Madara didn't think that someone would be dumb enough to revive him as an ET. His adversaries in his era should kave known that he knows how to unseal ET and if they passed this knowledge onto their offsprings properly (i.e. "reviving Madara as ET is strictly forbidden"), then noone would have done exactly that.

The Rinnegan jutsu brings you back as a fresh live mortal, and judging from how Edo Madara was owned several times in the war, he would have quickly returned to being dead anyway, lol.

He was supposed to be brought back with everything intact, including the Rinnegan and Senju DNA (refer to Tobi's wall of Hashirama). Noone would stand a chance even if he is fleshy. Actually, even without Rinnegan, he would still pretty much soloes with the Perfect Susanoo, so nevermind.

[Murdock]

I think it's because Madara didn't think that someone would be dumb enough to revive him as an ET. His adversaries in his era should kave known that he knows how to unseal ET and if they passed this knowledge onto their offsprings properly (i.e. "reviving Madara as ET is strictly forbidden"), then noone would have done exactly that.

He was supposed to be brought back with everything intact, including the Rinnegan and Senju DNA (refer to Tobi's wall of Hashirama). Noone would stand a chance even if he is fleshy. Actually, even without Rinnegan, he would still pretty much soloes with the Perfect Susanoo, so nevermind.

actually it is major plothole .. I mean if Madara knew that this would happen ... it implies that the same thing has already happened - how come there is no immortal person running around then?

also notak makes excellent point why not tell someone to revive him throught ET ... he clearly instructed someone to carry out his orders (most likely tobi) why hasn't he done done that (at first he must have been following madara) - he knew enough about DNA to be able to fuse cells with someone successfully thus it makes no sence ... it was plothole no jutsu kishi just had to introduce madara in full strenght it was waaaaaay too tempting

[Notak]

I think Madara only had the chance to break the seal because of Kabuto's failure. But if you think about it, why not have someone close to Madara use Edo Tensei on him, and then that person could just intentionally stop the Edo Tensei seal so that Madara can break it freely.

But hey, I guess manga logic can't be perfect you know.

Then again, Edo Tensei is not that easy of a jutsu to acquire, it seems like only Orochimaru knew about it for a long time until Kabuto took over

[Ryr]

actually it is major plothole .. I mean if Madara knew that this would happen ... it implies that the same thing has already happened - how come there is no immortal person running around then?

Because Madara is the only one who planned ahead for generations?

And on why Madara didn't teach ET to Obito so that Obito can bring him back as ET and then let him undo the seal, we don't really know how much knowledge Madara has in respect of ET. He may have found a way to break the technique, but that doesn't mean he knows everything about it. Obito clearly didn't know about ET until he forced KAbuto to teach him, but by that time Madara has already been brought back by Kabuto.