Yonkou Hunting

[jaymizzo]

Honestly, saying "if it was Big Mom, then Oda wouldn't keep it a secret!" is bad logic. Why wouldn't he keep it a secret? As far as we know, it could be any Yonkou, and him not revealing Big Mom keeps us in suspense longer. Because Oda didn't tell us, we're doubting which Yonkou Luffy will face now, but it can still very well be Big Mom. It's a cliffhanger.

I'm not saying it's definitely Big Mom, I'm just saying it's illogical to count her out just because Oda didn't reveal who Law is going after or wants to go after.

Fancy meeting you here

It is bound to be Big Mama though. I personally see no other explanation to Luffys reaction. He didnt even have a second thought once the Yonkou was mentioned. And taking her down would benefit him the most

I still dont see Luffy attaining status as Yonkou just yet. I see that position being open or taken over by Law who will still have a brotherly alliance with Luffy after Luffy inevitably does something jesus like for him.

It would be weird for Luffy to end up a Yonkou this early in part 2. Unless ofcourse i am completely mistaken and simply taking down a Yonkou doesnt give you theyre position.

[winterwyrm]

Fancy meeting you here

It is bound to be Big Mama though. I personally see no other explanation to Luffys reaction. He didnt even have a second thought once the Yonkou was mentioned. And taking her down would benefit him the most

I still dont see Luffy attaining status as Yonkou just yet. I see that position being open or taken over by Law who will still have a brotherly alliance with Luffy after Luffy inevitably does something jesus like for him.

It would be weird for Luffy to end up a Yonkou this early in part 2. Unless ofcourse i am completely mistaken and simply taking down a Yonkou doesn't give you their position.

Well it seems like killing a yonkou gives you the reputation and respect that would be needed to push you up to yonkou level, this can be seen in impel down when they all the inmates clamored over the possibility of being the man who killed whitebeard, and also when buggy was reflecting on the war and said "man I want to kill whitebeard, I could be a.... YONKOU!!!" (he then fainted as it was too much for him) as fantastic as that may be, it seems like in order to kill a yonkou, you already should have considerable power and influence, however blackbeard was only recognized as one after he conquered a considerable amount of land, so he would probably have been on that path eventually, but after expanding a bit he became unquestionably a yonkou. (could you imagine what living under his rule would be like?)

Either way it's unlikely that Luffy would kill big mam, or even kill a single member of her crew, so it seems unlikely that he could take her spot, a more likely situation would be law collecting her heart and those of her commanders, and then subsuming them into his new empire. Honestly it seems to me like luffy would be constrained by governing that much land, and while he would own places like FI, perhaps it would be more like friendship, and he would not be seen as a yonkou until he fights blackbeard, and then would use that authority to challenge the marines finally.

[Kaiten]

It should already be obvious who the senior partner in this alliance is, Luffy is already bossing Law around.

If someone is powerful enough to defeat a Yonkou, they will probably be acclaimed a Yonkou themselves. What makes a Yonkou is that if the World Government or another Yonkou defeats them, the consequences would be so dire that it almost would not have been worth the effort. Look at the aftermath of the War for an example. That was the whole point of the "balance of power" Oda spent half of part one talking about. If a pirate can somehow defeat a Yonkou without being fatally weakened in victory, they have to be one of the four most powerful pirates in the New World.

Luffy will not be governing islands when he becomes a Yonkou. Where do these ideas even come from? It has already been confirmed that Yonkou do not necessarily rule their territory. It has yet to even be confirmed if any Yonkou actually do take political control of islands. So far none have even been shown to rule by proxy. They form protection alliances with various islands based on terms that differ between the Yonkou. Whitebeard was shown forming alliances in exchange for friendship. Big Mom has been shown forming alliances in exchange for tribute. Based on a template the author has already established we know, beyond even the tiniest shadow of a doubt, that Luffy need not rule islands he is allied with.

Luffy will obviously defeat a Yonkou, recent plot developments should make that immediately obvious. He's already declared war against Big Mom and formed a pirate alliance with the sole purpose of defeating a Yonkou in mind. What except defeating a Yonkou could these developments be leading towards. And what would be the point of defeating a Yonkou if not being proclaimed a Yonkou. Plot logic dictates that it only makes sense to have Luffy proclaimed a Yonkou in the aftermath of defeating a Yonkou. Being proclaimed a Yonkou several arcs later would be besides the point, well after the emotional impact of such a massive victory.

[Wha]

Fancy meeting you here

It is bound to be Big Mama though. I personally see no other explanation to Luffys reaction. He didnt even have a second thought once the Yonkou was mentioned. And taking her down would benefit him the most

I still dont see Luffy attaining status as Yonkou just yet. I see that position being open or taken over by Law who will still have a brotherly alliance with Luffy after Luffy inevitably does something jesus like for him.

It would be weird for Luffy to end up a Yonkou this early in part 2. Unless ofcourse i am completely mistaken and simply taking down a Yonkou doesnt give you theyre position.

Well i am not so sure about that. Luffys reaction could be explained with the Younkou being Big Mom. Namis reaction is troubling me here. There was a conversation about Law betraying them and i first thought that would be the reason for her concerns, but now i'm troubled: If the yonkou Law want's to take down really is BM, why is Nami so shaken? Luffy already told BM that he would fight her and i think that if they would met with BM, she would try to destroy them (and i asume that Nami knows that).
Law is strong, has got an incredible ability and their chances of beating a yonkou would turn to the better. So i think they are hesitating because it's another Yonkou.

Luffys reaction is just like Luffy. I mean, Law saved his life and we know that Luffy isn't the kind of guy who forgets something like that. I think the only yonkou he wouldn't try to take down with Law would be shanks. I just don't see Luffy relying on a pirate alliance or someone except for his own crew when he faces shanks. I think that he would want to show him his strength and the strength of his crew.


What troubles me the most isn't Luffy but Law. Now we know that Law was part of Doflas crew. We know that Law wants something back. Don't know if it's dofla (but i think so) who "stole" something from him, but they don't seem to have a friendly relationship (conversation with Vergo, Law tied up in a cage,......). We know that Dofla is strong but more importantly we know that his influence is almost everywhere.

My question: Why does Law want to take down a yonkou while he has unfinished business with dofla?
The only reason i could think of is Dofla having a deep connection to one of the four emperors or Dofla being one (that would have to be kaidou because he is the only one we haven't seen in action so far).

[abc1233]

It should already be obvious who the senior partner in this alliance is, Luffy is already bossing Law around.

If someone is powerful enough to defeat a Yonkou, they will probably be acclaimed a Yonkou themselves. What makes a Yonkou is that if the World Government or another Yonkou defeats them, the consequences would be so dire that it almost would not have been worth the effort. Look at the aftermath of the War for an example. That was the whole point of the "balance of power" Oda spent half of part one talking about. If a pirate can somehow defeat a Yonkou without being fatally weakened in victory, they have to be one of the four most powerful pirates in the New World.

Luffy will not be governing islands when he becomes a Yonkou. Where do these ideas even come from? It has already been confirmed that Yonkou do not necessarily rule their territory. It has yet to even be confirmed if any Yonkou actually do take political control of islands. So far none have even been shown to rule by proxy. They form protection alliances with various islands based on terms that differ between the Yonkou. Whitebeard was shown forming alliances in exchange for friendship. Big Mom has been shown forming alliances in exchange for tribute. Based on a template the author has already established we know, beyond even the tiniest shadow of a doubt, that Luffy need not rule islands he is allied with.

Luffy will obviously defeat a Yonkou, recent plot developments should make that immediately obvious. He's already declared war against Big Mom and formed a pirate alliance with the sole purpose of defeating a Yonkou in mind. What except defeating a Yonkou could these developments be leading towards. And what would be the point of defeating a Yonkou if not being proclaimed a Yonkou. Plot logic dictates that it only makes sense to have Luffy proclaimed a Yonkou in the aftermath of defeating a Yonkou. Being proclaimed a Yonkou several arcs later would be besides the point, well after the emotional impact of such a massive victory.

This may be more complicated if Luffy isn't the only one who takes down BM. If him and Law, along with any others who join the alliance (I'm thinking Kid) fight BM together then they can't all be proclaimed to be Yonkou-level. Depending on how far down the story the final battle with BM takes place, this may actually be the more likely scenario.

Well i am not so sure about that. Luffys reaction could be explained with the Younkou being Big Mom. Namis reaction is troubling me here. There was a conversation about Law betraying them and i first thought that would be the reason for her concerns, but now i'm troubled: If the yonkou Law want's to take down really is BM, why is Nami so shaken? Luffy already told BM that he would fight her and i think that if they would met with BM, she would try to destroy them (and i asume that Nami knows that).
Law is strong, has got an incredible ability and their chances of beating a yonkou would turn to the better. So i think they are hesitating because it's another Yonkou.

Luffys reaction is just like Luffy. I mean, Law saved his life and we know that Luffy isn't the kind of guy who forgets something like that. I think the only yonkou he wouldn't try to take down with Law would be shanks. I just don't see Luffy relying on a pirate alliance or someone except for his own crew when he faces shanks. I think that he would want to show him his strength and the strength of his crew.


What troubles me the most isn't Luffy but Law. Now we know that Law was part of Doflas crew. We know that Law wants something back. Don't know if it's dofla (but i think so) who "stole" something from him, but they don't seem to have a friendly relationship (conversation with Vergo, Law tied up in a cage,......). We know that Dofla is strong but more importantly we know that his influence is almost everywhere.

My question: Why does Law want to take down a yonkou while he has unfinished business with dofla?
The only reason i could think of is Dofla having a deep connection to one of the four emperors or Dofla being one (that would have to be kaidou because he is the only one we haven't seen in action so far).

Fair enough if he's the head of a secret underworld organisation, but secretly the head of one of the most powerful pirate crews in the world? That's pretty unlikely. For one thing, he would have had to spend many years gaining influence, defeating powerful opponents and claiming territories as his own without showing his face. He clashed with Shanks whilst Don Flamingo was at Marinford, plus Moria fought Kaidou too but didn't make the link between the two at any point. I wouldn't be surprised if Kaidou is somehow linked to Don Flamingo's organisation though.

[Kaiten]

This may be more complicated if Luffy isn't the only one who takes down BM. If him and Law, along with any others who join the alliance (I'm thinking Kid) fight BM together then they can't all be proclaimed to be Yonkou-level. Depending on how far down the story the final battle with BM takes place, this may actually be the more likely scenario.

Luffy is the hero of One Piece. Law is a supporting character. The plot will work out so that Luffy defeats Big Mom and the Heart Pirates become an allied fleet. The supporting cast will not steal the hero's glory. It should be obvious who's in charge already. Luffy says he wants to save the children from Caesar, so they are saving the children from Caesar. It did not matter how much Law protested.

What makes you think Kid will help Luffy defeat Big Mom? Couldn't he instead become an inherited enemy after she is defeated? An enemy of an enemy is not necessarily a friend.

---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------

My question: Why does Law want to take down a yonkou while he has unfinished business with dofla?

What makes you think Law and Doflamingo have unfinished business? Law said he is a former crew member, he never said he left under bad circumstances.

Law has already said why he wants to defeat a Yonkou. To survive in the New World you either have to be a Yonkou, allied to a Yonkou, or constantly challenge a Yonkou. Clearly Law has chosen to challenge a Yonkou, and has a plan that might actually lead to victory.

The only reason i could think of is Dofla having a deep connection to one of the four emperors or Dofla being one (that would have to be kaidou because he is the only one we haven't seen in action so far).

Somebody said it already in the chapter discussion thread, but I repeat:

As a Yonkou, Kaido is a very well known Pirate. He is one of the four most powerful pirates in the New World, his identity can not be a secret. Unless he is a Scooby Doo villain, hiding behind a mask, there is no chance a pirate as famous as Doflamingo is secretly a pirate as famous as Kaido.

[hoeru]

Hm.... Somehow, I start to think that it's irrelevant which Yonkou Law wanted to bring down: He'll end up helping in fighting Bigmam anyways. With Pekoms, Tamago, and Kid - who already is challenging BM for some time now - appearing at the end of this chapter it's quite a given. Even if there's a field trip to the Wano Country first for the Straw Hats.

[Kaiten]

I wonder if I'm the odd one out in believing that Law doesn't have a preference on which Yonkou to take down. I believe Luffy will join against Big Mam because Luffy wants to, not because Law cares which one fall, so longs as it creates an opening for a new Yonkou.

Luffy already asked Law which Yonkou he plans on attacking, Law responded on the same page. Luffy accepted Law's invitation based on the name he was told. Law was the one who decided who to attack, not Luffy. The characters of the manga already know who they will be fighting, it is the audience that is not yet aware.

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 PM ----------

Hm.... Somehow, I start to think that it's irrelevant which Yonkou Law wanted to bring down: He'll end up helping in fighting Bigmam anyways. With Pekoms, Tamago, and Kid - who already is challenging BM for some time now - appearing at the end of this chapter it's quite a given. Even if there's a field trip to the Wano Country first for the Straw Hats.

I'm not convinced that Luffy will have to fight three Yonkou over the course of the series. He is already fighting one as part of the alliance, and he will obviously have to defeat Blackbeard later. Considering how long One Piece arcs can last, fighting all three could mean 200-300 chapters dedicated to nothing but Yonkou. While a distinct possibility, it could also be overkill. It would not surprise me if the remaining Yonkou was defeated by another member of the Worst Generation. Making three of the four Yonkou members of that generation would be effective symbolism for the age after Whitebeard's defeat.

I don't quite think Kid will help fight Big Mam either. I think his attacks against Big Mam were meant as a hint of how things work in the New World, later put into words by Law; either ally with a yonkou or constantly challenge one, that is the only way to survive. He doesn't seem the helpful type when personal glory is on the line. I can't imagine him helping Luffy and Law unless he is backed into a corner, like on Sabaody. Rather, once Luffy is proclaimed a Yonkou, I imagine Kid becoming one of his challengers.

[llydnarz]

Luffy doesn't just fight without a good reason. Unless its just a sparring or training. He might want to fight Shanks just to show that he has improved, but he wouldn't want to take him down and steal his title. So Kaidou and Shanks are already out of the choices.
That leaves us with Big Mom and BB. We all agree that it's still too early to fight BB so Big Mom would be that Yonkou.

[Wha]

What makes you think Law and Doflamingo have unfinished business? Law said he is a former crew member, he never said he left under bad circumstances.


As a Yonkou, Kaido is a very well known Pirate. He is one of the four most powerful pirates in the New World, his identity can not be a secret. Unless he is a Scooby Doo villain, hiding behind a mask, there is no chance a pirate as famous as Doflamingo is secretly a pirate as famous as Kaido.

i think so, because: .) his first reaction meeting vergo. First, going down, grabbing his heart. Second, http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/672/2

law states something like "i didn't do anything to harm you" and vergo replies with "if you already had you wouldn't be alive right now. Even if you hide things from us, the adults will find out...Law"

then law wants him to disappear - and is knocked down, imprisoned in a cage (vergo and Law have been crewmates, if their isn't a bad relationship or unfinished business between Dofla and Law, why would he do that?). Doesn't seem like a friendly relationship to me, especially the line "do you really think he had no idea" from vergo. Vergo is working for Joker, Joker is Dofla. No idea of what? And if Law isn't plotting something against Joker (Dofla), why doesn't he want him to know that he is on Punk Hazard if their relationship is fine?



as for kaidou.....well i have got no proof, most of it is based on speculations and i very well could be wrong. But i don't think it would be that hard to explain - does anybody know the movie "the usual suspects"? The main villian, the "boss of the underworld" is Keyser Söze but nobody knows what he really looks like. Everybody knows terrible stories about him, but nobody has ever seen him face to face.....

[0Xellos]

Writing doesn't work like that

There seems to be some confusion about the definition of foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is a subtle hint at future plot direction. When Ace makes first mention of Blackbeard, that is foreshadowing. The audience was only informed that Blackbeard was a criminal Ace was tracking. His identity and role in the greater narrative of the story was not explained, leaving the audience free to speculate.

Luffy declaring war on Big Mom was a matter of telegraphing, not foreshadowing. Telegraphing is the direct, full disclosure of a future plot development. There are no remaining mysteries about Big Mom's role in One Piece. We know she poses an imminent threat to Fishman Island, that Luffy has declared war on her, that a bomb was inadvertently sent to her, and that Jinbe can not join the Strawhats until she is defeated. The only question is when the Strawhats confront her crew.

A red herring is the opposite of foreshadowing, a subtle hint meant to mislead the audience, obscuring the direction the plot is headed. A red herring is meant to manipulate expectations, increasing the impact of surprise revelations. The statements Law made about himself before the timeskip are a good example of a red herring. Part of the audience was manipulated into believing he would either be a villain or callous, uncaring character. His true role in the manga was established when he saved Luffy and Jinbe's life after Marineford. A red herring must be subtle, lying to the audience renders it ineffective. The disconnect between Law's words and his actions (a literary device called irony) was enough to manipulate expectations without lying to the audience.

I see... thanks for clearing it up

All of these plot devices are meant to manipulate expectations, a way for authors to guide the audience in a desired direction, or to obscure future developments and keep plot twists fresh. Foreshadowing and telegraphing also help establish continuity. They allow the author to preview future developments, connect disparate story lines, and establish more organic plot twists. Oda likely telegraphed Big Mom's role in order to establish continuity between Fishman Island and developments to come at Punk Hazard. Law's proposed alliance could still surprise the audience, and yet remain a logical extension of recent events.

If telegraphing Big Mom was an elaborate red herring, all plot continuity would be lost. Rather than a carefully scripted, logical development, Law's goal of defeating a Yonkou would be a soap opera twist with no connection to prior events in the manga. Kaido has not been introduced, Big Mom has. And the introduction was recent, during the transition from Fishman Island to Punk Hazard. Shanks is even more illogical. Confronting Shanks would contradict the entire manga, Shank's role and relationship to Luffy was established before One Piece was even serialized, in the first Romance Dawn one shot. His role has been further reinforced with every appearance. A confrontation between Luffy and Shanks would be a massive break in continuity, retconning Shank's role and Luffy's personality.

What confused me a bit is how Law proposed the alliance - that they'd develop a strategy and see if they can find a chance. It's hard to say if this attack on a Yonkou will happen anytime soon, in which case it'd be possible to have an alliance against Shanks without disrupting the continuity of the story (I'm having second thoughts about that now, though...)

There are many arguments for and against every Yonkou, it seems. Although I'd like some Luffy vs Shanks, that wouldn't be possible unless the strategy was a seriously long term one... oh well

Like a lot of you, Shanks would be a total disaster for them. He would utterly destroy them tbh and it would go agaisnt the whole continuation and promise Luffy and he made back then. Shanks will probably not even bother fighting them and treat them like fodder.

And what makes you think BM is so much weaker than Shanks? Yonkou should be at least approximately equal in strength, otherwise the weaker ones would be beat by the stronger ones. Even if there's probably some difference, it's not enough for one Yonkou to treat them like fodders and for another to not.

Dofla being Kaidou is quite impossible, he'd be recognizable by not only his appearance, but also his ability; what's more, Dofla was at MF during the war and Kaidou was in NW.

[jaymizzo]

What confused me a bit is how Law proposed the alliance - that they'd develop a strategy and see if they can find a chance. It's hard to say if this attack on a Yonkou will happen anytime soon, in which case it'd be possible to have an alliance against Shanks without disrupting the continuity of the story (I'm having second thoughts about that now, though...)

There are many arguments for and against every Yonkou, it seems. Although I'd like some Luffy vs Shanks, that wouldn't be possible unless the strategy was a seriously long term one... oh well

If Law and Luffy plan on going against Shanks, they would seem to be in the hurry for death. Though Shanks will most definately say no to a war declaration, if he was to acknowledge the declaration, these two and theyre crews would get beaten worse than what happened in Sabaody. Shanks is on a completely different level than the rest of the Yonkou (post Whitebeard) IMO.

And Luffy should know by now that his pirate crew is not as great as Shanks is, they made a promise to meet when Luffy has assembled a crew matching or contending with Shanks's own.

So for the sake of logic, Big Mam is the most reasonable choice. Luffy would not be smiling had it been anyone else i.e. Shanks or BB. The mere mention of Akainu made him look quite angry. So i dont think He would be smiling at the mention of BB.

Kaidou would be even more illogical since Luffy knows nothing about him. I think the reaction from Nami (i think it was her) was of shock as to what Law has against said Yonkou or why Law would propose him/her.

Still, story wise and logically, BB and Shanks should be out of the question.

[danzouismadara]

I think its kaido since he hasnt been introduced yet so this would be a nice way to involve him in one piece. Or big mam since luffy wants to take her out anyways. As for shanks...well luffy cant meet him yet until he gets reallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy strong and famous. I think luffy will meet/fight shanks at the very end for the one piece. It was for shadowed in the very beginning when luffy said that his crew will beat shanks crew

[BlackSword]

Too me Kaido seems to be a valid possibility. For me it seems like everything we have experienced 'so far' in the New World is going to be tied together. We know that Doflamingo is behind a lot of the 'underworld/criminal' activity that has been shown thus far. To me it seems unlikely that he could do whatever he wanted without being an ally, underling(of a Yonkou) or controlling a Yonkou.

From what we've seen of 'Big Mam' she is a lot like Luffy only more ruthless. I can't really see her bothering to be involved w/ Child Experimentation or Weapons of Mass Destruction. Not because she thinks it's morally wrong but because neither of those things taste good! If Kaido in the end turns out responsible (albeit through Doflamingo) for the drug addicted children, Momomosuke's kidnap and whatever bad stuff is sure to happen before the end of Punk Hazard then I see it as a possible trigger. Kaido from what we know of him (via Moria and conversations w/ Sengoku) is a typical 'Luffy Opponent'.

This is just my opinion.

[Jdapenao]

I think it would be Kaido because when X-drake arrives to his favorite island in the NW (http://mangafox.me/manga/one_piece/v61/c595/3.html), the one let to guard it seems kind of a cyborg ("Iron Boy" Scotch), which would be related to Vegapunk and CC, well it just a hunch.