Naruto 588 Discussion

[toussaintac]

Anyway, the moral of the story is that Sasuke can not and will not beat Madara. Sasuke would need some form of help or a greater power than EMS.

[shafagh]

I think now the main problem is the title of kage ,
IMO Kage is merely a title , even Kakashi would be a "Kage" , so if you saying " Sasuke won't do ... because he couldn't beat a kage ... " IMO it is a bad reason for your logic ....

at least I'm sure that Danzo is better and stronger ninja compare to Tsunade !!!

...............

I think , I become negative again (well , in fact being negative is part of my personality) .... so this is better for me to stop sending post for some days ....

[toussaintac]

I think now the main problem is the title of kage ,
IMO Kage is merely a title , even Kakashi would be a "Kage" , so if you saying " Sasuke won't do ... because he couldn't beat a kage ... " IMO it is a bad reason for your logic ....

at least I'm sure that Danzo is better and stronger ninja compare to Tsunade !!!

...............

I think , I become negative again (well , in fact being negative is part of my personality) .... so this is better for me to stop sending post for some days ....

I guess I see your point. I really mean Sasuke could barely defeat people of kage-level. Sure he beat Danzou. However, he would've lost his life to Raikage (Notice I didn't say win/lose). So when you place him in power rankings, he ranks as kage level. However, Madara ranks as Rikudou-level. We're seeing what Rikudou-level does to kage-level. If 5 kage-level combatants of that caliber can't defeat one guy of Rikudou-level, then I don't see why people would expect Sasuke, 1 guy with EMS, to take Madara down. It makes no sense. People will point to other things that were unlikely but, in the end, they really were likely and the person just didn't like it. However, There's no way 1 Sasuke with EMS could hope to do better than 5 kages.

This is, of course, assuming it were straight up battle and Madara weren't ET. It's possible Madara being ET opens up a new condition of victory where he could use Izanami so that Madara would be forced to reach nirvana and disappear.

[badluckartist]

@toussaintac

Heh? Raikage was fighting there for revenge and nothing else... He could hold back and get more help (4 other Kages there FFS). No reason to trow away his life.

We have a long way from Minato to Raikage. Minato had no choice but to do that to protect his village. Raikage had a lot other options but was to blind from rage and revange... Not only that Minato clearly was able to drive Tobi off.

If anything he would die in disgrace, ignoring his responsabilities to the village for his need of reveange.

No matter what his motivations were, he was still acting as a Kage should in attacking Sasuke for the kill. "Hanging back" probably wasn't an option with an insane MS wielder shooting black flames of death in a neutral country's heart of diplomacy. Not a cool, calculated Kage like Minato, but still right in his actions as Kage.

[Prince Sasuke]

Sasuke was being protected by Enton and Susanoo. To say that Sasuke would've died is really no more then a bad assumption.

I really see no point in Sasuke fighting Madara, they have no reason to. It would make a good read though.

[mattiaildivino]

kabuto really has to find out a way to break izanami,if he succeeds in doing it,he will win: itachi can't use tsukuyomi anymore,not to mention that,without a sharingan,he can't use even susanoo!

[Silvers Rayleigh]

Anyway, the moral of the story is that Sasuke can not and will not beat Madara. Sasuke would need some form of help or a greater power than EMS.

Sooo how do you know the full power of the EMS anyway? kish could make it anything he wants!!!!
the RED part is an example of why most of you guys are always whining, you make assumptions like this one
and when kish proves you wrong you will be yelling plot hole!!! plot hole!!!

[toussaintac]

Sooo how do you know the full power of the EMS anyway? kish could make it anything he wants!!!!
the RED part is an example of why most of you guys are always whining, you make assumptions like this one
and when kish proves you wrong you will be yelling plot hole!!! plot hole!!!

First of all, you can check every post I've ever written and I will not have ever called anything a plot hole. In fact, I'm the one that said people should wait before calling something a plothole if there was not enough information. Anyways, as far as assuming, I'm actually inferring. That's a form of assumption, but it's based off of given data. I'm basing my inference on the data that Madara wanted Hashirama's genes. He wanted them to obtain the Rinnegan, which he must've considered to be greater than his EMS which couldn't help him enough to defeat Hashirama.

Add to that that EMS evolves into Rinnegan once a person has both genes in one body. Also, we're seeing the power of a guy with EMS and Rinnegan right now. Why would we expect a guy with just EMS, no Rinnegan, and much less chakra to be better? See all of the evidence? Based off of that, it's a fair assumption. Logic still works in Naruto. I've seen logic in all of the defeats thus far. There would be no logic in Sasuke utilizing EMS to beat a guy that has mastered EMS, Hashirama genes, and Rinnegan unless their was a special condition to defeat (which I outlined in previous posts).

[Prince Sasuke]

Sooo how do you know the full power of the EMS anyway? kish could make it anything he wants!!!!
the RED part is an example of why most of you guys are always whining, you make assumptions like this one
and when kish proves you wrong you will be yelling plot hole!!! plot hole!!!

Exactly. We have no ideal of what EMS can do, so why assume its not strong enough? Madara's job is to show of Hashirama powers do we can get an ideal about how strong he was. Sasuke's job is to show us the power of EMS.

---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

First of all, you can check every post I've ever written and I will not have ever called anything a plot hole. In fact, I'm the one that said people should wait before calling something a plothole if there was not enough information. Anyways, as far as assuming, I'm actually inferring. That's a form of assumption, but it's based off of given data. I'm basing my inference on the data that Madara wanted Hashirama's genes. He wanted them to obtain the Rinnegan, which he must've considered to be greater than his EMS which couldn't help him enough to defeat Hashirama.

Add to that that EMS evolves into Rinnegan once a person has both genes in one body. Also, we're seeing the power of a guy with EMS and Rinnegan right now. Why would we expect a guy with just EMS, no Rinnegan, and much less chakra to be better? See all of the evidence? Based off of that, it's a fair assumption. Logic still works in Naruto. I've seen logic in all of the defeats thus far. There would be no logic in Sasuke utilizing EMS to beat a guy that has mastered EMS, Hashirama genes, and Rinnegan unless their was a special condition to defeat (which I outlined in previous posts).

1. Can I get a link to the manga that says Madara gain Rinnengan from getting Hashirama DNA?
2. Can I get a link to the Manga that shows Madara using EMS powers.... Not MS powers.

[toussaintac]

1. Can I get a link to the manga that says Madara gain Rinnengan from getting Hashirama DNA?
2. Can I get a link to the Manga that shows Madara using EMS powers.... Not MS powers.

1. Well, he didn't have Rinnegan until after he fought hashiramam and obtained his cells. Then right before he dies, he coincidentally gained Rinnegan and fused himself with Hashirama at the same time. Everything isn't outright said all the time, otherwise it takes away from discussion.

2. Madara not being blind shows it's the power of EMS.

You do realize none of that matters since we've pretty much been led to believe Madara mastered Sharingan, MS, EMS, Hashirama genes, and Rinnegan, right? Anything Sasuke can do with EMS, Madara should already know and Madara has Rinnegan and EMS. Izanami and Izanagi? You don't think the former leader of the clan knew the technique? I'm sure he does. As a an EMS user would he bother? heck no. I imagine he never used Izanagi or Izanami because he came back with both of his eyes intact. What exactly are you trying to get at? Either way, Sasuke needs more than just EMS if he wishes to be i the same league or he needs a special condition like what can cause an ET to disappear.

[Invader]

the moral of the story is that Sasuke can not and will not beat Madara

Not at all. The moral of the story is that if there were 100 different fights of Sauske versus Madara, the outcome would be Sauske Victories: 100... Madara Victories: 0...

I'll say it again. Those of you who say that Sauske cannot defeat Madara are also saying that Kishimoto cannot MAKE Sasuke defeat Madara. And - of course - anyone who says such a thing is just automatically wrong and either hasn't been reading the manga, or has absolutely no reading comprehension ability. If Kishi chooses to toss Sauske and ET Madara in a ring (and in my opinion that is where the story is going) then I will go out right now and state with 100% iron-clad, absolute certainty that Sauske will be the winner in that fight. Hands down. No question. Case closed. Period. Full stop. And anyone who says otherwise I declare to be either ignorant, stupid, or some combination of both because anyone who thinks Madara would kill Sauske just doesn't understand jack-squat about this manga.

[zerocooldx]

I don't even know why this is really a debate at all. Just like Naruto is going to end up surpassing Rikudo Sennin, Sasuke will end up surpassing this version of Madara who is basically a pseudo-Rikudo Sennin. Naruto and Sasuke are going to stand above everyone else that has been shown in the manga. And given the fact that we are at the end of the manga, whats the point in doubting where this is heading?

[EMS]

1. Well, he didn't have Rinnegan until after he fought hashiramam and obtained his cells. Then right before he dies, he coincidentally gained Rinnegan and fused himself with Hashirama at the same time. Everything isn't outright said all the time, otherwise it takes away from discussion.

2. Madara not being blind shows it's the power of EMS.

You do realize none of that matters since we've pretty much been led to believe Madara mastered Sharingan, MS, EMS, Hashirama genes, and Rinnegan, right? Anything Sasuke can do with EMS, Madara should already know and Madara has Rinnegan and EMS. Izanami and Izanagi? You don't think the former leader of the clan knew the technique? I'm sure he does. As a an EMS user would he bother? heck no. I imagine he never used Izanagi or Izanami because he came back with both of his eyes intact. What exactly are you trying to get at? Either way, Sasuke needs more than just EMS if he wishes to be i the same league or he needs a special condition like what can cause an ET to disappear.

Kabuto ET second tsuchikage jus as i had guessed.what awaits when you progress beyond the sharingan
Kabuto: Is the rinnegan?..
Uchiha madara: i awakened these eyes shortly before my death.

it doesn't say anything about having senju blood and uchiha(sharingan)...in fact even if tobi gave nagato the rinnegan, nagato doesn't have any uchiha blood or sharingan in his past

[Invader]

whats the point in doubting where this is heading?

Exactly. "The next generation will surpass the one that came before." This is inarguably one of the main themes of the manga. I don't care if ET Madara can juggle planets ALA DragonBall-Z. I don't care if he is holding a Shield Of Instant Resurrection and wielding a +10 Vorpal Sword of Kill-Anything. I don't care if Madara can clench his left butt-cheek and crush entire dimensions of reality. He could be a combination of Mohommad, Jesus, Elohiem, and Superman all rolled up into one. It wouldn't matter if he could shatter the Universe just by twitching his eyelid. Put all that together and pitch it against Sauske and it would STILL LOSE EVERY TIME.

Of course it wouldn't make any realistic sense. You just have to accept that Sauske is covered in Kishimoto Plot Armor, and there is no way he can lose ANY fight for ANY reason except against one person... Naruto. All this hypothetical stuff is pointless. Fun, maybe, but pointless. If Kishi really decides to make "Sauske vs. Madara" happen then Madara is going to lose. Of that there is no question.

[toussaintac]

I don't even know why this is really a debate at all. Just like Naruto is going to end up surpassing Rikudo Sennin, Sasuke will end up surpassing this version of Madara who is basically a pseudo-Rikudo Sennin. Naruto and Sasuke are going to stand above everyone else that has been shown in the manga. And given the fact that we are at the end of the manga, whats the point in doubting where this is heading?

Nobody's doubting that they should and probably will surpass them. I don't agree with the theory that merely a EMS wielding Sasuke will beat Madara. If anything, it would take some combination of Naruto and Sasuke to do that. However, I don't see them individually surpassing Rikudou unless one of them becomes Rikudou. Sasuke should surpass Madara's pure uchiha ability while Naruto surpasses Hashirama. Rikudou is a special case.

---------- Post added at 04:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------

People comnig in mid conversation are missing the entire point of the debate.