Blackjack612 Reviews Naruto 587 When it turns 9 o'clock

[Rikudou King]

I don't even belive you get to activate Izanami before Izanagi's existence ends... Perhaps if that dude activates the other eye to... You first need to notice the user has Izanagi active and that lasts for the "briefest of moments". Before you do the hole print screen and then use it on the enemy Izanagi would already end.

Also what attacks was Izanagi able to make into a reality? If we go from what Danzou showed... Hell even Tobi. They where teleporting and using normal attacks or even a pipe lol.

In essence if you had Susano you could jsut pop that up for a few seconds and be done with it. I still don't see how Izanami would help you. As i said Izanagi last for some seconds, before you use Izanami the hole thing is probably over already.

Whatever they can do for those few seconds it would be way more beneficial to you to try to survive and then you just about won that fight. If you have Susano its not even a problem. Why use an eye to trap somene that has 1-2 seconds left on Izanagi anyway?

Why wouldn't you be able to activate Izanami before Izanagi ends? It was never said that all Izanagi's last the same amount of time, not to mention a brief moment could be from a single second to thirty seconds.

It wasn't shown but Tobi specifically mentioned that Izanagi allowed the user to make their own attacks and advantages real. It's not like Susanoo would have been an option for most of them, given it's super rarity among them. It would probably have been 1 out of 50 that had it available. So the majority of Sharingan users would either have to use their own Izanagi or Izanami to counter. Plus there's the obviously point about reforming strong ninjas being a better tactic then always killing them.

[Dutchy]

Personally I think Kabuto will die, but not at the hands of the Uchiha brothers. He seems to have a lot of admiration for Naruto, which I'm sure will play some role in his epiphany. Itachi stopping Edo Tensei with Gen-hax seems too easy and I'm hard pressed to believe that ET Madara, with his intimate knowledge of jutsu of yesteryear, would allow himself to be recalled like a Pokemon. Suigetsu, Juugo and Karin will save the day.

[Eprst]

Very nice review thank you now Justus are becoming more and more complicated so need time and reviews to understand what is going on there

[xXan]

Why wouldn't you be able to activate Izanami before Izanagi ends? It was never said that all Izanagi's last the same amount of time, not to mention a brief moment could be from a single second to thirty seconds.

It wasn't shown but Tobi specifically mentioned that Izanagi allowed the user to make their own attacks and advantages real. It's not like Susanoo would have been an option for most of them, given it's super rarity among them. It would probably have been 1 out of 50 that had it available. So the majority of Sharingan users would either have to use their own Izanagi or Izanami to counter. Plus there's the obviously point about reforming strong ninjas being a better tactic then always killing them.

I really don't think the "the briefest of moments" can be anything but in the single digit time. Also nobody stated that you can do it for more if you are skilled or whatever. Only Senju DNA was showed to be able to extend it. Aside from that it looks like you activate the jutsu and it last for that time and then the eye is going to close. I mean its an eye lasting jutsu, you have nothing to "improve". Even if an eye is sharper i am sure it will drain just as fast. In general its the same eye to all humans even if some can see a little better(ignoring diferent type of eye injuries or crep like that).

From what we got to see the best thing you can do with Izanagi is don't die and teleport in x spot after you get "killed". Going by that the enemy would just need to defened themselfs from your attacks for that small time gap. I mean seriously even removing Susano from Sasuke and giving Danzou 10 seconds of Izanagi and Sasuke would have no problem defending himself for that time (asuming he knows about Izanagi).

Also why would 1 not have time to activate Izanami? Well asuming its 9-10 seconds. You first need to notice that dude is in Izanagi, then you need to take the photo and what not and then activate it. By the time you get to the activating part its propably some 3 seconds left on Izanagi tops. So what is the poin? Just jump back 1 more time :P

Perhaps Izanagi can make you into a reality warper but not from what we got to see. Tobi used a pipe and Danzou used convencional attaks. At least Kishi needs to show us more from this Izanagi as it stands now its really dumb to me.

Yes Tobi stated that you can make your attacks real but what attacks? Why nobody showed anything like that? Both Tobi and Danzou used standard attacks? It makes no sense, why has Tobi used a blasted pipe to hit Konan if he could sneeze and turn that into a Superman sneeze? I mean seriously it makes no sense.

Also Uchiha saving dudes that are going to kill them? This si so Senju lol. Uchiha where people that where ready to kill there family and best friends to get MS/EMS type of clan. of course we had SOME exceptions but that is about it.

Going by the above i find it really dumb for Kishi to force Izanagi on us like that. At least show us Uchiha using Izanagi for 30 seconds spaming mountain blowing attacks (ilusions-reality) to give it some sense... Tobi stabing with a pipe is not impresive or giving me any reason to belive a 10 seconds god mode would make a UCHIHA trow away and eye to save someone (consider how arrogant they are and what not).

[Rikudou King]

"Briefest of moments" could be simple hyperbole. Wouldn't be the first time. I say it does depend on the user's skill because we've seen that despite them using the same source of Senju Dna along with Uchiha Dna, there was a wide difference between the minute Danzo's Izanagi lasted and the five ~ ten minute long Tobi's lasted. The difference we saw between them would suggest that there is no set amount of time with Izanagi with the upgrade, so likely there wouldn't be one without it either. In addition, it's been established that similar techniques of the Sharingan can greatly vary all depending on the user. There's no set standard in the usage or defense of regular genjutsu or even the higher abilities like Amaterasu and Susanoo. It always depends on the user's skill. So it's very possible that the amount of time depended on who was using it and thus Izanami was a viable option against the more skilled users. Say Senju Dna boosted Izanagi to last five times as normal. For a unskilled user, that could mean merely a maximum of ten seconds. But for a skilled user, that could mean a little over a minute. Plus, Izanami may have been activated before said person used Izanagi, going by the whole alternate path thing.

From Itachi's flashback this chapter, with Izanagi apparently being used at the beginning of battle, it's main usage was more about offense then defense. I doubt Danzo's usage of it was the regular means, especially considering that it took even Tobi time to figure out that it was Izanagi and we know he had foreknowledge of it. Anyway, Izanagi was said to make the person's attacks and advantages real, not anything. So I think it would have been more about ensuring a deadly blow or a complicated tactic working then actually messing with reality. That's pretty much what happen with Danzo, all his attacks always landed and he was even able to damage Susanoo. Tobi's a different story, because in addition to him not actually having more then touching as an attack, he didn't want to kill Konan.

As for saving others, the Uchiha clan choose to side with Hashirama in an effect to avoid any more war, they made such techniques like Izanagi forbidden, and seemingly stopped the quest in gaining MS/EMS considering what his father told to Sasuke. I don;t think it would be out of the ordinary to attempt to save their clansmen, especially when it was to keep them from losing manpower. It's one thing to kill to gain power, but killing to lose power was probably considered problematic to them. Better to save them if only for their potential power.

[xXan]

@Rikudou King

We had a diference from Danzou to Tobi because Danzou could not control his Senju DNA(explained by Tobi):
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/510/12
And we know that Danzou really had no real control over Hashirama's cells as he needed to keep them sealed so they don't take over his body and at the end they actualy started to (when Danzou was low on chakra and what not).
That would be why Tobi could do it for longer, not skill but Senju DNA control. Well i gues perhaps you could look at that as skill or a better medical transplat to not allow that from happening or because Tobi is probably a born Uchiha or some type of plan robot. We don't know i gues.

The thing is the other jutsus could be influenced by skill. This jutsu on the other hand ends when the eye runs out. It looks to me more like a biological limit then a skill limit.

You know your example was actualy somewhat good. Tobi needed a good amounth of time to notice Danzou was using Izanagi lol. So it was a more limited version... It would have ended a long time before it was figured out.
Now Danzou's attacks where all conventional ones, doing as much damage as they would normaly do, hitting as they would normaly would. Danzou damaged a somewhat primitive version of Susano with a combo of his HUGE summon. Susano is not really invulnerable. So let me ask you again. What has Kishi showed as with Izanagi that would make a clan need to create Izanami to fight it? That is the entire point. It makes no sense based on what he showed us of that jutsu. Some seconds of not able to kill a guy does not = to you trowing an eye away. Better just to defened, its not like he can do any other attaks then normaly (again from what it was showed to us).
Of course we can speculate on what the hell Tobi wanted to say there with his advantages and make them real (or whatever) but its still not suported by what we actualy got to see from that Izanagi jutsu.

Well of course they sided with the Senju to protect there own ass. They had only to gain from that move. That is COMPLETLY diferent thing. Going with the senju, teaming up, creating the most powerfull village and so on are ALL advantages for the Uchiha. They knew they could not beat the Senju. You know what they say, when you can't beat them, join them.
We also have no idea why they made it forbidden. If you ask me its because they wanted only the top tier to be able to do it so nobody can use it against them. It makes more sense then the Uchiha protecting there own. From what we know ninja are ready and able to sacrifice even there lives to complete a mission, so doing that with an eye... Especialy when you are about to die makes no sense. Trust me, it was about having control on who get's to use it so they don't end up fighting someone with it.
But yes they stopped the quest for EMS/MS as that would be just about ilegal in CURENT Konoha. They had no choice. None of the Hokage would allow the Uchiha to kill themselfs for eyes.
The thing is to save them you would need to lose an eye. So what was the point? Better to let them go nuts and complete the mission then having 2 Uchiha with -1 eye. That would be a big problem for them. Remember Obito? He died because Kakashi was missing an eye and he could not see that falling rock. Someone with only 1 eye would be a big handicap in a fight.

You could also insert here the Uchiha going with Hashirama as hokage but that is probably because he was stronger then Madara (from the looks of things) and from what we know from Tobi (he could be making up crep) the Uchiha did not wanted someone who killed his brother for power as Hokage. This would be the best example you can get about the Uchiha not wanting EMS type of killing anymore. Perhaps it was more then that. We can only hope for a flashback of those events.

[Rikudou King]

Danzo didn't lose control til he got close to death, which Tobi acknowledge, so I doubt that was the key difference between them, especially since when all was said and done Danzo had enough control to make use of Mokuton in battle.

Being as it was the first we've seen of them, I would question the claim that Danzo's attacks were doing as much damage as they "normally" would have done. We've seen the type of attacks that can be thrown up against Susanoo and actually do damage, so I don't think it would be out of the question to think that Danzo's attacks were being boosted by Izanagi, thus explaining his ability to do damage and land blows against Sasuke. Regardless, there's little reason to presume that Danzo's usage of it was the standard. Itachi's comment suggest otherwise and he's a far more knowledgeable source.

Even if they did team up with the Senju because it was an advantage to them, it shows they knew the benefit of not wasting resources. So why would they foolishly kill valuable soldiers when they could stop them and use them in a later fight? And I would hardly say it was because they "couldn't beat the Senju". After all, it was the Senju who came to them in the attempt for peace. Madara clearly had no issue challenging Hashirama multiple times. And we know that years later, the clan was enough of a threat that Konoha had no trouble believing their coup would lead to the downfall of the entire country. Since the only Uchiha's who are capable of awakening the Sharingan are only the top elite, forbidding it just for control is unlikely. Same with the situation with MS/EMS. Don't see how it could have been seen as illegal when we know two very loyal ninjas to the village knowingly develop MS. Plus that wouldn't fit the context of his father's comment to Sasuke. In addition, you're presuming love and/or clansmenship wouldn't have been a factor in it. Brotherly love seems quite big in the Uchiha clan and it would be easy to see them going the distances for one another. And if Izuna can go off into battle completely blind, the lost of a single eye can't exactly be called a handicap.

[xXan]

@Rikudou King

The control is the diference. Tobi said so himself:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/510/12
See? Read there. Tobi said so himself.

Even Minato's kunai swing was more impresive then Danzou's kunai swing lol. I mean seriously the only thing able to do shit was the combo with his pet. Not only that Sasuke dodging the attacks:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/477/12
There is not even 1 instance in that entire fight where you could argue that it was a "empowerd" attack. The combo with is biju makes more then enough sense.

Well you would gain that ninja back (PERHAPS, you can never be sure of that, he could even refuse to accept and die inside that Izanami crep) but you would 100% lose 1 eye and that is a HUGE blow to whoever used that genjutsu. In the end is not worth it to trow away a perfecly good eye for "perhaps".

Also yes i do belive they could not beat the Senju. Take not i said they can't beat the Senju, never said the Senju would win. It would be at best a continued DRAW where both would just lose resources. No point in doing that for anybody with half a brain. Better joing up and create the most powerfull roganization in the world.

Also we do know 2 people that developed it but we also know what type of people this 2 where. They where the type to kill there own to presever the village. The Hokage are completly diferent and would not allow to kill your brother, friend, whatever to gain power to protect the village. Also Itachi probably got MS when that dude died on his own or he killed him when that dude asked. I am sure Itachi has never done it for power. But again it was not legal to do so in the village.
Remember when those guys showed up on Itachi's door to get him because they belived he killed his friend? Yes it was more then illegal.
Again i don't belive they are not allowing Izanagi to protect there people. It would make no sense that a dude that is going to die 100% not use it or a dude that would fail his mission to not use it.

I asume you have any feats of Izuna doing anything in a fight blind? If i remember right its also said he died in battle? If you ask me he whent in 1 last fight so he would die like that, on his feet as a man and not of old age, on his knees a useless man.
What the bloody hell would a ninja do like that? The clan's power is in the EYES. Not having them is a huge blow. Imagine curent Sasuke with no sharingan (give him eyes but not sharingan). WTF would he do lol? Fodder level much?
Losing eye is more then a handicap. You lose part of your periferic vision, you lose a MS ability, no Susano (well of course to those able to use that). Close your left eye and see how bad it is in that area. You could get killed EASY because of that. You would not see an attack coming from that side. Any ninja would exploit that.

[Rikudou King]

But as I pointed out, Danzo didn't lose control of it til after his deadly wound, something Tobi confirmed, and had enough such control to make use of it in actual battle to defend. So lack of control can't possibly be the reason behind the difference in Izanagi.

Minato's swing was up against a completely different material though. Well one attack was dodged, but the others were right on. I would easily say a wind blast as large as Susanoo's shield, and multiple wind blades capable of fraying it's skin would fall under the category of empowered. Perhaps? Itachi made it pretty clear that Izanami was used for and would force a personality change. The lost of one eye would still be less costly then the lost of one skilled soldier.

I would have to disagree with the idea of it being a draw over the long run. The variety within the Senju would have meant they would be relying upon sheer luck that they would always have ninjas capable of facing an Uchiha, which has been established as a hard task. On the other hand, once they gained the Sharingan, there was a good chance that said Uchiha could be capable of handling nearly anything thrown at them, be it taijutsu, genjutsu, or ninjutsu. Heck, the situation with the Uchiha massacre pretty much suggest that in the three some generations since then, the remnants of the Senju would have lost against the remnants of Uchiha.

Perhaps one could claim that for Itachi, but there's nothing suggesting Shisui was that type. The fact he chose to die instead of helping would imply he wasn't willing to go all the way against his clan. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that both Itachi and Shisui were known to have MS by the higher ups. In addition, considering the Hyuuga's were allowed to continue to place their curse seal upon branch members, which gave them not only the power to inflict intense pain at the drop of a hat, but also to kill, the idea that MS was made illegal seems quite unlikely. And the three Uchiha didn't show up to arrest Itachi over a presume crime of gaining MS, they showed up because he was acting suspicious while they were planing a coup and then possibly kill the guy they had sent to keep an eye on him. They were concern about him affecting their coup, not having MS, as at the very least his father knew he possessed it and Shisui's was seemingly well-known for his MS ability. As for Izanagi, the reason it was made forbidden was explained this chapter, because it's usage made the user overly arrogant and develop a god complex.

Obviously he was capable of doing something in battle well enough, else his beloved brother and the rest of the clan wouldn't have sent him out. Anyway, need I remind you that Itachi was nearly blind when he fought Sasuke and ended up completely blind after activating Susanoo and that Sasuke also nearly blind in his exchange with Naruto, and both times they still handled themselves pretty well. Also, Itachi was still capable of activating Susanoo after going blind, so using MS doesn't appear as if it would have been effected, at least outside of actually aiming and targeting. Besides, we've seen from the likes of the Kiri Swordsmen, Kiba, and Kakashi, that a skilled ninja can easily make use of smell and hearing to fight in place of sight. So the lost of sight was no guarantee of the lost of fighting capability. Fodder level? Even with using his Sharingan, Sasuke has been shown to manage well enough. He wouldn't be Kage level anymore, but hardly would he drop to dealing with just fodder.

[blackjack612]

yes it was in the manga too,here you are: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/521/3

Yup. But that's only if you take Kabuto at his word. He told Tobi the seals, but who knows for sure if they work or if Kabuto's taken a countermeasure for that eventuality. If I were him, I'd assume Tobi would use genjutsu on me at the first available oppurtunity.

You know i really don't see the point if Izanami. So what a Uchiha could reverse whatever for "the briefest of moments". So you need to kill him 2x times(a few seconds later). Big deal... That dude has now -1 sharingan in his head.

So some dude surviving for some seconds more then normal and losing 1 eye would make one(Uchiha) all the things Itachi said in this chapter and to combat that you would need Izanami that AGAIN makes you lose 1 eye? I would just summon Susano and then laugh my ass off when that dude has only 1 eye left.

This chapter made as much sense to me as money falling from the sky. Now ignoring that Izanami crep i really liked the chapter but again ignoring why they created Izanami as there would be no need for Izanami to get around Izanagi. No need in hell. Also comsidering what you would sacrifice and what you get(a few more seconds to live) nobody would be a prideful idiot... Also how many would even use it? Bleah...

I also find Izanami out of caracter for the Uchiha, its more like a Senju thing if you ask me...

Well a couple of things, I guess. First, we've seen that not all the Uchiha were sociopathic, power-obsessed individuals. Shisui and Itachi took duty for one's village to the extreme and Obito sacrificed himself for a comrade. It's not a stretch to imagine that in the past there were like-minded individuals to Itachi who sough to reform rather than kill there most dangerous, and thus valuable, clansmen.

As for Izanami, it struck me as a very useful jutsu. It keeps the target trapped until that stop relying on Izanagi, so it's not like the target can just use that jutsu once Izanami ends. Assuming both Uchiha had two eyes, both casts of Izanagi could be stopped by both casts of Izanami leaving two blind Uchiha.

I really don't think the "the briefest of moments" can be anything but in the single digit time. Also nobody stated that you can do it for more if you are skilled or whatever. Only Senju DNA was showed to be able to extend it. Aside from that it looks like you activate the jutsu and it last for that time and then the eye is going to close. I mean its an eye lasting jutsu, you have nothing to "improve". Even if an eye is sharper i am sure it will drain just as fast. In general its the same eye to all humans even if some can see a little better(ignoring diferent type of eye injuries or crep like that).

From what we got to see the best thing you can do with Izanagi is don't die and teleport in x spot after you get "killed". Going by that the enemy would just need to defened themselfs from your attacks for that small time gap. I mean seriously even removing Susano from Sasuke and giving Danzou 10 seconds of Izanagi and Sasuke would have no problem defending himself for that time (asuming he knows about Izanagi).

Also why would 1 not have time to activate Izanami? Well asuming its 9-10 seconds. You first need to notice that dude is in Izanagi, then you need to take the photo and what not and then activate it. By the time you get to the activating part its propably some 3 seconds left on Izanagi tops. So what is the poin? Just jump back 1 more time :P

Perhaps Izanagi can make you into a reality warper but not from what we got to see. Tobi used a pipe and Danzou used convencional attaks. At least Kishi needs to show us more from this Izanagi as it stands now its really dumb to me.

Yes Tobi stated that you can make your attacks real but what attacks? Why nobody showed anything like that? Both Tobi and Danzou used standard attacks? It makes no sense, why has Tobi used a blasted pipe to hit Konan if he could sneeze and turn that into a Superman sneeze? I mean seriously it makes no sense.

Also Uchiha saving dudes that are going to kill them? This si so Senju lol. Uchiha where people that where ready to kill there family and best friends to get MS/EMS type of clan. of course we had SOME exceptions but that is about it.

Going by the above i find it really dumb for Kishi to force Izanagi on us like that. At least show us Uchiha using Izanagi for 30 seconds spaming mountain blowing attacks (ilusions-reality) to give it some sense... Tobi stabing with a pipe is not impresive or giving me any reason to belive a 10 seconds god mode would make a UCHIHA trow away and eye to save someone (consider how arrogant they are and what not).

Again, not all Uchiha are arrogant. And some of those who are (Itachi) can still feel enough empathy to sacrifice themselves for another.

And whether it's seconds or minutes, any span of time in which your opponent can freely bend reality is....well that kind of danger just doesn't have words to do it justice. Battles can easily be won or lost within a few seconds. A last minute attack against an enemy that can't miss. Or negating an ambush from existence.

Even Minato's kunai swing was more impresive then Danzou's kunai swing lol. I mean seriously the only thing able to do shit was the combo with his pet. Not only that Sasuke dodging the attacks:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/477/12
There is not even 1 instance in that entire fight where you could argue that it was a "empowerd" attack. The combo with is biju makes more then enough sense.

Really? I think that because the power leveling in this manga is so fluid and ill defined that everyone's mileage will vary for what constitutes a normal vs. super-powered attack. Wind release is destructive and we've seen how effectively it can be used from Nagato, Orochimaru, Asuma, and Naruto. All of which were strong, but strong enough to rip open a Susanoo? Doubtful. Orochimaru's wind release was powerful but really only ripped flesh and broke glass jars and didn't even do it enough to take down Hiruzen.