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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
When Atobe gets wiped to the floor (like Sanada did against Yukimaru) we will see what happens. To put it this way:
Sanada lost 7-1 to Yuki in the U17. Is it implausible that Atobe would have taken him to a tiebreak -- somehow? One of Atobe's techniques and characteristics -- not plot power -- is his knack for clawing his way to match equality. That is a fact that has been demonstrated numerous times. Given this knack, I don't see him losing 7-1 to Yuki.
But I'm willing to concede that Atobe and Sanada are roughly similar since tennis is not transitive. Anyone who asserts that one is better than the other and passes this off as fact is a comedian. Simply put, we cannot discount Atobe (as many have done on the forums) and then claim its axiomatic. In reality we are all speculating.
To summarize; I'll take Atobe's knack for tenacity and unwillingness to lie down (a permanent feature) over Rai or Black Aura (techniques that will near obseletion in a few epochs). This line of thinking may deviate from the way the forum does business, but it is no less factual.
Who is the comedian now?
Don't hype up Sanada as someone who "only Yukimura could beat."
I don't even know what that can prove. Just because Atobe can't beat Sanada doesn't mean he's not just as good as Sanada. It can honestly go in either one of them's favor.
Here, I got it from the episode, and even though this dialogue doesn't appear in the manga, it's pretty much suggested:
*Ryoma hits Rai*
Yukimura: "So you showed him that of all things?"
Sanada: "You're well aware of this: we fight until we reach the pinnacle of our strengths in a head-on battle. That is how Rikkai Dai Fuzoku does things."
Yukimura: "Such a thing is mere childish foolishness."
Last edited by Brandnewkid; May 30, 2012 at 12:11 AM.
I'm still not understanding why everyone's sleeping on Atobe just because he's not Rikkai or Yukimura or Echizen or whatever. Do you realize how good of a tennis player Atobe is? Genius be damned, this is the guy who used Muga without using Muga. He's the King of Tennis for a reason.
I'm not saying he's stronger than Sanada, but for him to beat Sanada wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Game done.
I don't think anybody is saying that Atobe sucks, it's more like that he doesn't appear to be quite on the same level as the top of the top.
You are right that we should probably evaluate matches on a three set basis from now on though.
While you can say that Atobe could get a new technique during the match, what's stopping me from saying that Sanada wouldn't get a new one as well, making the gap effectively the same again or possibly even widening it?
When you argue about the outcome of a match and want to take improvements into account, you might as well save yourself the time and effort since that argument can always apply to both sides.
The point is that techniques in general evolve (on both sides). So if Sanada is superior technically right now, it does not mean he is better as both players will evolve technically -- BA will be obselete and so will AK. But in terms of characterization, Atobe has a knack for attaining match equality -- at which point anything can happen (even a draw as in Irie!). So I feel that whoever Atobe plays, he will find some way to get to a tiebreak, and anything can happen from there.
But look, I'm willing to say that Atobe and Sanada are approximately equal (its too close to call). I'm pretty sure if they played each other it would be a close, long drawn out match. I also believe -- and this isn't exactly factual -- that Atobe will end up in a tier similar to Tezuka. If I were to visualize an ending to the franchise, it would consist of Echizen joining the pros along with Tezuka and Atobe.
We are now seeing Ochi alone take out Atobe and Niou with Mouri on the side just having fun. We see Atobe get challenged and pushed to the brink of losing in NEARLY EVERY MATCH HE PLAYS.
Injured Tezuka took him to 7-6 FFS.
Sanada's characteristic is ALSO to claw his way through a match. He did so with Yukimura who was crushing him, now Sanada is possibly as strong as Yuki and there is the argument he could be stronger. Sanada survived Yips due to his characteristic while Tooyama and Fuwa could not.
So basically your beloved Atobe isnt the only one with the persistent characteristic. Given them BOTH having this knack, It still boils down to Atobe overcoming Rai. HE CANNOT RIGHT NOW. Sanada > Atobe its as clear as day right now.
We are NOT discounting Atobe on this forum. I am aware how awesome he is. He is just not as strong as Sanada from what we have been given.
It is NOT speculation if Atobe has no way to defeat Rai as far as we know. Let alone Black Aura which is shown to be possibly comparable to TMnK.
Tooyama and Fuwa were destroyed by Yips however Sanada survived Yips. It means that Atobe isnt the only one with persistence.
So I am still dealing with facts. Nothing suggests Atobe is MORE persistent than Sanada. They have equal persistence we could say.
Can Atobe defeat Rai?? HE CANNOT AS FAR AS WE ARE AWARE. Let alone Black Aura.
Also it's false to say that any aura/technique will become obsolete in the next match, Drive B for example lasted a long time, so did Kisarazu's Sky Inversion Drop Volley or even Tezuka Zone, just to name a few.
As the destined best in the series is only the Prince, and the Pierrot (Irie) walked all over him.
Finally, I am well aware how awesome Atobe is. Its just that Sanada is definetely better as of now.
Atobe is in Akutsu, Shiraishi, Tooyama, Niou, Fuji group. Not Yukimura Sanada group. That's all.
I even mentioned before in my posts that he shut down Ryoma in Muga like youve referred to. But him beating Sanada cant happen with what we have been shown.
---------- Post added at 08:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 AM ----------
It isn't factual because it is a fantasy.[/QUOTE]
Look, I understand where you guys are coming from. But, its like someone said,..., Drive B lasted a long time (against fodder opponents mainly) to establish Ryoma's identity. The way the canon goes, techniques are ephemeral.
This is why you cannot only compare characters based on techniques you think are better or worse. So fine, let me concede that perhaps Sanada's techniques counter Atobe's techniques.
I'm not willing to concede that Atobe's knack for clawing his way to match equality isn't stronger than Sanada's knack. Atobe's entire identity -- from when he was in England -- revolves around this knack. So yes, I think its safe to say that in terms of stamina and persistence Atobe is probably better than Sanada. We can debate this point, but I think even you will have to agree that this is likely true. Again, not saying that Sanada will let ppl walk over him...but Atobe losing 7-1 would be extremely extremely out of character. (In fact, you can make the argument that this is why the writers had Irie sandbag against Atobe).
Thus, if Sanada's technique is better right now, but Atobe's knack is better, its kind of a wash. If pressed, I would pick the tenacity over technique.
To put it another way. I could see Atobe beating Sanada 7-0 as a more plausible match than Sanada beating Atobe 7-0. Even if Atobe is outclassed, he will probably take it to a tiebreak,..., where anything can happen.