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Thread: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

  1. #1
    Intl Translator 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Criss-Kun's Avatar
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    What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    ...the explanation is just boring?

    Yes, this is a direct response to SlayerKisame‎'s "Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes" thread and to many of the people who replied trying to explain things.

    I've read over your explanations, and what disappoints me the most is realizing that they are perfectly valid explanations. This disappoints me so much because they are just so freakin boring.

    Quote Quote:
    Underdog to Top class Ninja, controls Kyuubi and goes on par with Minato in one year > He trained under Madara.

    Kisame seeing Madara, then years later recognizing Tobi as the Mizukage > Genjutsu.
    Yes, these are all possible things! And this is just sad, because these explanations are pretty much the only ones possible. They feel cheesy, slapped on like putting a magazine under a table with a wonky leg. To quote the great Carl Sagan: "Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence". Not really relevant as is, but if you change Claims for Stories and Evidence for Explanations, you get what I mean.

    Let me give you a concrete example: Itachi used to be an ANBU, so he knew how to infiltrate Konoha, disarming the systems that would otherwise detect him. That's cool and appropriate.
    Now imagine if we learned that he just Henge'd himself into any villager and walked through the main gate.

    One very important thing: Let's also not forget the Boring Explanation to Bore Them All: Hashirama's cells. Hashirama's cells are the WD-40 of plot devices. Just throw it in anything from mutilated body to rusted silverware and it will be as good as new.

    When some big thing happen, we, readers, expect something equally big to explain it. Ultimately, if you can't make your readers happy at the very end, your series has failed.

    Now, why am I not posting this on the other thread? Because I want to start a discussion here which I think would be off-topic over there.

    Mainly, I want to know what you think about these explanations. How would you patch everything up? Would you feel satisfied if those were actually the explanations?
    Last edited by Criss-Kun; September 19, 2012 at 04:54 AM.

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  3. #2
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sachsenhesse's Avatar
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    Quote Quote:
    They are not the great twists we all came to know and love so much throughout this entire series.
    Show me please 3 really great twist. I can just think of one and that was Itachi is a good guy.

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    Intl Translator 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Criss-Kun's Avatar
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sachsenhesse View Post
    Show me please 3 really great twist. I can just think of one and that was Itachi is a good guy.
    Did I say twists...? Oh god, I did... i_i
    Sorry, it's 7 a.m here in Brazil and I'm sleep deprived. What I meant to say was the big explanations that we all came to know and love. No idea why I decided that "twists" was a valid replacement here.

    I'll just take that part out so the discussion doesn't end up going in a bad direction.

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    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    After how Suigetsu conveniently found a scroll that is able to change the war and let Taka rule the world, a scroll conveniently left behind by Kabuto, conveniently in the only base Suigetsu and Juugo found, conveniently in the only wall Juugo broke, conveniently only usable by Orochimaru, conveniently still alive inside Anko that wasn't conveniently killed by Kabuto, do you expect a logical/interesting reason for the bullshit Kishi draws?

    Same manga where Hashirama's cells is the solution for all problems, ranging from a common cold to impending death.


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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    Naruto: "Hey Madara, you said you died shortly after giving Nagato your eyes, how you and Obito know each other?"
    Madara: "I used Hashirama's cells."
    Naruto: "What, but even I know the math doesn't work..."
    Madara: "Hashirama cells. Problem solved."
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    I agree with the OP. Things can be explained in Naruto, but usually the explanations are just so boring and last-minute.
    This is what happens when you can't tie the whole story together and keep making up stuff on the spot.

    Like the OP says, it's exactly like putting a book under a broken table to balance it. It's the most last-minute solution ever.

    Better than Bleach atleast, where things are not explained most of the time, atleast Kishimoto bothers to explain SOME stuff.

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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    hashirama's cells have epic lifeforce and seem to possess accelerated mitosis because of this.. what if he got cancer?

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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    Why on earth are people still complaining about the Obito "plothole" stuff? At least there's sort-of an explanation behind it. What about all the other glaring plotholes in the series that people just skip over?

    Like the stuff with Izanagi:

    - So you need Hashirama's genes to use it, like Tobi told Konan?
    - Itachi says the whole clan spammed it so much they had to develop Izanami?
    - How could they spam it if it costs you an eye?
    - If it changes reality however you want, why not make yourself several extra eyes with it?
    - No Uchihas thought to use Izanagi while Itachi was massacring them? Durr....

    Doesn't make any goddamn sense. Just one of many things in the series.

    I don't know why people seem to pick and choose which plotholes they're going to get upset about. Personally, I don't see the Obito stuff as that bad, since we've started to get explanations in the recent chapters. I think the author made Tobi's identity way too obvious at first, then used the Madara stuff to make people wonder again.

    And why couldn't one single person tell Naruto about his parents, seriously...

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    seriously you people cant be satisfied, its to boring of an explanation, and it was basically established that he inserts a portion of his own chakra into the people with curse seal, remember itachi sasuke fight who pops out of the curse seal but orochimaru, either let him explain or dont read simple as that

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrs View Post
    - So you need Hashirama's genes to use it, like Tobi told Konan?
    - Itachi says the whole clan spammed it so much they had to develop Izanami?
    It's true that it wasn't explained. But if you think about it, if the technique exists, it's because someone used it before. So there is some sense on it.

    I just assumed that someone from the Uchiha clan made some experiments like Orochimaru or Madara. But is that supposed to be a common thing?

    But I expect this will be explained at some time when more details about the Rikudo sons and the Uchiha lineage is provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrs View Post
    - How could they spam it if it costs you an eye?
    - If it changes reality however you want, why not make yourself several extra eyes with it?
    Doesn't one question answers another? And Danzou did used a bunch of extra eyes, but he could only after the whole clan was exterminated.

    But I still think you made a valid question: Izanagi is so overpowered that all Ninjas in the world shouldn't think of anything else, and they should all be looking for Sharingans to use as Dragon Balls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrs View Post
    - No Uchihas thought to use Izanagi while Itachi was massacring them? Durr....
    Itachi killed everybody when they were sleeping, so even if they could I don't think they were given the opportunity. But it's interesting to think that one single Uchiha could undo all the killing.

    But it requires Senju heritage to use it, and that's the reason. How the Uchihas used it in the past is a different matter...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrs View Post
    Doesn't make any goddamn sense. Just one of many things in the series.
    I agree that there is some mess about it. The biggest problem is that it was introduced all of a sudden.
    Last edited by Fox666; September 19, 2012 at 09:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

  16. #11
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ryr's Avatar
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    After how Suigetsu conveniently found a scroll that is able to change the war and let Taka rule the world, a scroll conveniently left behind by Kabuto, conveniently in the only base Suigetsu and Juugo found, conveniently in the only wall Juugo broke, conveniently only usable by Orochimaru, conveniently still alive inside Anko that wasn't conveniently killed by Kabuto, do you expect a logical/interesting reason for the bullshit Kishi draws?
    "After how Loki conveniently found an ancient race named the Chitauri who conveniently wanted to colonize Earth, he arrived through a portal which was conveniently located near Clint so that he can be conveniently mind-slaved by Loki, bla bla bla..."

    In other words, what you wrote is essentially the type of complete BS that you can use on almost everything that you dislike.

    Quote Originally Posted by hyper_megaman View Post
    that about sums up all that's wrong with this manga, actually
    the religious naruto fanboys should read this...
    The only thing wrong about this manga is that some people happens to dislike its direction, bitterly. Carry on.
    Last edited by Ryr; September 20, 2012 at 05:15 AM.

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    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    "After how Loki conveniently found an ancient race named the Chitauri who conveniently wanted to colonize Earth, he arrived through a portal which was conveniently located near Clint so that he can be conveniently mind-slaved by Loki, bla bla bla..."

    In other words, what you wrote is essentially the type of complete BS that you can use on almost everything that you dislike.
    Do point out how it makes a little bit of sense that:
    -Juugo and Suigetsu didn't despise Sasuke like Karin, the one who had a crush on him
    -Juugo and Suigetsu going to Orochimaru's lair to search for Sasuke when Sasuke cut his ties with Orochimaru at the start of their journey
    -Juugo going mad at random, when he was all logical and stuff when they infiltrated the samurais and were prisoners, and then escaped
    -How Orochimaru or Kabuto never hid that ultra important scroll, if it could enable them to rule the world
    -Why Kabuto kept Anko alive when he already extracted Orochimaru's chakra from her
    -How Juugo and Suigetsu flawlessy found Sasuke when better man tried to locate Kabuto, invain

    Ah no of course, a guy randomly punching a wall for no reason and finding a deus ex machina makes perfect sense.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    I don't think all the explanations/retcons are bad. Some are though. Then again you could say that a fictional story is not supposed to make sense anyway. But as a writer you've still gotta try to make the fiction make as much fictional sense as possible.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ryr's Avatar
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Do point out how it makes a little bit of sense that:
    -Juugo and Suigetsu didn't despise Sasuke like Karin, the one who had a crush on him
    Because Sasuke released them from Orochimaru's jail. The same goes for all the inmates who were released following Orochimaru's defeat.

    Quote Quote:
    -Juugo and Suigetsu going to Orochimaru's lair to search for Sasuke when Sasuke cut his ties with Orochimaru at the start of their journey
    Because Juugo and Suigetsu are not willing subjects of Orochimaru's experiments.

    Quote Quote:
    -Juugo going mad at random, when he was all logical and stuff when they infiltrated the samurais and were prisoners, and then escaped
    Do I seriously need to explain to you about his dual-personality? Or do you conveniently forgot about the plot?

    Quote Quote:
    -How Orochimaru or Kabuto never hid that ultra important scroll, if it could enable them to rule the world
    Voldemort hid his horcruxes too. I wonder how people still manage to find them.

    Quote Quote:
    Ah no of course, a guy randomly punching a wall for no reason and finding a deus ex machina makes perfect sense.
    In the real world not everything will always go according to plan. There will always be the random factor. Call it chaos theory or whatever you would like. The fact remains that a lot of discoveries, be it scientific ones or othewise, are stumbled upon by chance. Google it.

    Someone accidentally finding something important in the manga is realistic. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen.

  22. #15
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: What good does explaining the plotholes do if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    Because Sasuke released them from Orochimaru's jail. The same goes for all the inmates who were released following Orochimaru's defeat.
    That's for Juugo, maybe, and its not for that, but because Sasuke is Kimimaro's legacy.
    Even though he killed Orochimaru, go figure.
    Suigetsu has no logical reason in following Sasuke, since Sasuke doesn't care one bit about the 7 swords

    Quote Quote:
    Because Juugo and Suigetsu are not willing subjects of Orochimaru's experiments.
    yeah, so?
    They went there to search for Sasuke, not to go and chill.
    And since they later found him easily, it doesn't make sense for them to just go there instead of searching for him

    Quote Quote:
    Do I seriously need to explain to you about his dual-personality? Or do you conveniently forgot about the plot?
    So Juugo going nuts in that only instance, when he didn't go nuts in stressful situation where his life was in danger is good?
    Juugo acting all logical for the entire period going from the Summit and the War, and then he has this one time relapse in front of that wall?
    I don't expect this manga to be a literature masterpiece, but come on, that's way too convenient and easy

    Quote Quote:
    Voldemort hid his horcruxes too. I wonder how people still manage to find them.
    People ( Dumbledore ) found them after lucky shots ( Harry destroying the diary ), years of research and Harry obtaining a memory.
    Not randomly punching a wall for no reason

    Quote Quote:
    In the real world not everything will always go according to plan. There will always be the random factor. Call it chaos theory or whatever you would like. The fact remains that a lot of discoveries, be it scientific ones or othewise, are stumbled upon by chance. Google it.

    Someone accidentally finding something important in the manga is realistic. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen.
    If this would've happened once or twice, or for a good reason, I don't think anyone would be bothered.
    As you said chance discoveries happens all the time, I agree.
    Take the Lord of the Rings, just to make a famous example:
    Bilbo found the Ring by complete accident, and later Gandalf confirms it was his fate, just like it was Frodo's fate to carry it.
    But that is one occasion, and its the author that, instead of being lazy, is focusing on one of the principal themes of the book, how Fate guided the Ring to its distruction. And then again, it was both a great blessing and the worst curse.

    This occasion however has none of the above:
    its two guys strolling randomly in a place, finding the hidden room for a retarded way in a retarded way, and voilà! World domination

    Let's make an example, shall we?
    Harry Potter and company are walking down a road for no reason.
    Harry strumbles on something, he curses the heavens and looks below, finding an Horcrux.
    They can't believe they are so lucky, but hey, its a chance discovery.
    But then they realize they don't have a weapon to destroy it, so they panic, and then Ron strumbles on something. He curses the heavens, and looks below.
    They found a Basilisk fang!
    So they proceed to destroy the Horcrux.

    That's what basically happened

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