Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

[Rikudou King]

Even in such a situation as "Sasuke trained to keep up with Lee", Sasuke did so because he put forth similar effort. He didn't instantly gain it merely because he had the Sharingan, but because he physically trained to accomplish it. And even after he had trained for it, he still couldn't use it like Lee could. No training = no speed. It's not like he magically gained an upgrade and was then capable of moving at godly speed straight away.

[hyper_megaman]

Even in such a situation as "Sasuke trained to keep up with Lee", Sasuke did so because he put forth similar effort. He didn't instantly gain it merely because he had the Sharingan, but because he physically trained to accomplish it. And even after he had trained for it, he still couldn't use it like Lee could. No training = no speed. It's not like he magically gained an upgrade and was then capable of moving at godly speed straight away.

he gained in 1 month what lee took years to attain

though he didn't have the stamina to keep it up for long, he did display enough to be shown to be close to lee

naruto could only emulate the rendan by having a kage bunshin kickfest, he was totally unable to keep up with that speed, and naruto's the hard worker with quick recovery

most people would just go on blindly about how to raise their physical stats, and would be unsure about how to push themselves further faster

a sharingan user would just copy the end result (the skill being used by a physically able person), then replicate his moevments again and again.

normal people would have no goals and struggle to match their bodily stats, and at the same time try to coordinate all their actions, but a sharingan user would have an exact result to train to, just by playing back the recorded move at the recorded speed again and again, and they'd know exactly when they match it. they'd be training at a higher efficiency than others would

[Rikudou King]

he gained in 1 month what lee took years to attain

though he didn't have the stamina to keep it up for long, he did display enough to be shown to be close to lee

naruto could only emulate the rendan by having a kage bunshin kickfest, he was totally unable to keep up with that speed, and naruto's the hard worker with quick recovery

most people would just go on blindly about how to raise their physical stats, and would be unsure about how to push themselves further faster

a sharingan user would just copy the end result (the skill being used by a physically able person), then replicate his moevments again and again.

normal people would have no goals and struggle to match their bodily stats, and at the same time try to coordinate all their actions, but a sharingan user would have an exact result to train to, just by playing back the recorded move at the recorded speed again and again, and they'd know exactly when they match it. they'd be training at a higher efficiency than others would

Except it wasn't, since as mentioned, he could only maintain it for a set amount of time, unlike Lee who could maintain it indefinitely and even while being heavily weighted down. And considering Naruto had just seen Sasuke in action before he copied him, I'm not sure what that changes.

Um, a regular person would still e capable of doing the same thing. It doesn't take a Sharingan to mimic anther person over and over again. That's pretty much how Lee trained, by doing what Gai did. Also, we've never seen or been told a Sharingan user can "playback" what they've seen.

[hyper_megaman]

have you ever trained in any sort of martial art?

the higher level moves are never taught outright. people have to go through the whole training process of foundation/basic moves for years before they're slowly introduced to higher and higher levels of moves

that's because training a person outright in one move would be near impossible without the foundations conditionig the bodily strength/stamina in incremental steps. if you taught a taekwondo whitebelt outright how to do a roundhouse+back thrust combo, he'd screw it up because he doesn't have the stats and experience to carry out the move. you'll end up with a person executing the move wrongly and getting that into his habits.

this is why people take incremental steps in learning martial arts, the very same steps i assume rock lee went through and naruto has to go through to achieve the same level in taijutsu.

sasuke had the sharingan copy+playback the moves specifically. even if his body couldnt' take the moves outright, his form is a direct replica of the (assuming) expert he copied it from, and he can just keep practising that move outright without the incremental conditioning steps.


anyone familiar with martial arts would immediately view sasuke's copying of lee's taijutsu as an immediate skip to black belt moves, with perfect form. there is no hesitation in viewing it as an asspull. you know the amount of training people take to reach blackbelt? the number of basic kicks you repeat over and over? like the tree stump lee kicked a hole into, the repeated punches that gave his knuckles scars?


of course sasuke worked hard. no one said it was an absolute asspull. the EMS is the only absolute asspull around giving instant hax at low cost.

but for every bit of sweat put in by sasuke vs by lee, sasuke will always gain far more than lee does. and that's the asspull.



also, regarding your questionig of the sharingan being unable to copy+playback, i raise sasuke's copying of chuunin exam answers all over again. that, coupled with his copying of lee's moves and what i said above, pretty much shows this.
of course a normal person could copy a move outright from what he SEES. you used the example of lee copying Gai's moves.

in the case of lee, it's because lee has the foundation of being a taijutsu master to begin with. his 'copy' of gai's moves is his own interpretation with his own experience of what he thinks Gai is doing. this is like a black belt copying another black belt's moves. it took lee YEARS to perfect his rendan, however.

in the case of sasuke copying lee's high level move, it took him only a month. and kakashi never raised any issue about sasuke having to perfect it. all he did was play back the moves again and again.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-46-16/...hapter-41.html "look at his movements and COPY them"
http://www.mangareader.net/93-117-4/...apter-112.html "he's about the same speed as lee without his weights"
http://www.mangareader.net/93-117-6/...apter-112.html "how many years it took for me to gain that speed"
http://www.mangareader.net/93-117-7/...apter-112.html "sasuke had COPIED lee's taijutsu with his sharingan"

[moonshard]

No, it wasn't. The Uzumaki's gift of longevity is clearly different from the Senju's gift of stamina. Again, there's a reason they are considered different clans. And no, you keep attempting to make it as if the Senju had to have others fight for them. It was made clear that the Senju clan themselves, not a bunch of non-Senju, were capable of fighting the Uchiha clan since the time of the brothers. I don't see how it's hax when both clans received a lesser ability of the Rikudou Sennin.

Then I must have missed the part in the story where the Uchiha clan murdered all the Senju clan with their MS... Oh yeah, that never happen. Even after they gain MS, the Senju clan was still capable of rivaling them. MS isn't Hax, as we've seen with Sasuke.

You keep implying the Senju had to gather a bunch of other people inorder to stand against the Uchiha clan, which makes no sense. A bunch of other clans would not be apart of the Rikudou Sennin lineage unless hey bred in and if that was the case, then they wouldn't be considered a different clan in the present day village.

Um, it is naturally occurring. It's a Bloodline Limit. That's the whole point of the Advance Elements, they can only be fused together by a Bloodline Limit. With no Bloodline Limit, just having the elements wouldn't allow a person to fuse them together. This was explained during Naruto's FRS training.

Considering they remained rivals even afterward, clearly there was balance. You do realize that we're talking about a mere handful out of the entire clan with this power. I.e. Out of a 100 Uchiha, only 10 would have possessed the Sharingan, and only 3 would have been capable of awakening MS.

You do realize that the "Will of Fire" originated from the creation of the village of Konoha and merely deals with the pride in the village, right? It really has nothing to due with the current war, which has moved beyond the issue of the individual villages to a united desire. And that's just the way Kishi writes. It wasn't until Pain's Invasion that we saw other Aburame members, not til the summit that we saw another Yamanaka member, and not til this war that we saw other Nara and Akimichi members. Just because we haven't been directly introduced to them doesn't mean they aren't around.

I understand fine. We're talking about genetics here. All the Uchiha, just like all the Senju and Uzumaki, possess the genes they gain long ago. But the genes themselves don't grant the Sharingan, it merely gives them the potential of having it and passing it down, just like with every other Bloodline Limit apart from the Byakugan it seems. Just because someone possess the potential to gain a bloodline limit, doesn't mean they'll actually awaken it. We saw this with Haku and Kimimaro, who's bloodline limit appeared uniquely in them.

Which is the whole point, that it would require the same amount of work.

Information and resources wouldn't have enabled him to do something that was believed to be mythical, he wasn't "second to the Hokage" but just as regular Anbu, and the scroll were filled with forbidden techniques, which Hashirama's Mokuton techniques wouldn't fall under presuming he even had a reason to write them down. And I said use or train. Practice would still be needed to know what did what, like with Sasuke and his Amaterasu.

All bloodline limits work under the same basic rules.

I don't understand the part why you seem to think he had to have copied it to use it. There's nothing implying any such need, nor would it be needed when he actually gained Mokuton. We've seen that with various other bloodline limits, that the abilities naturally comes to the user without them having to know about them beforehand. Now it's obvious that Madara knew what Mokuton was capable of after fighting Hashirama so much, but that doesn't mean he had to copy it. Just gaining it would have been enough, just like how just gaining the Rinnegan allowed him to use Hungry Path's ability without requiring foreknowledge. It would be like claiming that Sasuke must have copied Susanoo from Itachi because he uses it later on...

Where does it say the Senju were gifted with stamina, show me manga and databook facts. Everyone in Narutoverse is gifted with stamina if you missed it otherwise everyone would be dead. You base everything on Hashirama whom is considered "mythical" in his potential, enormous chakra, mokuton kekkei genkai, healing capability and the Uzumaki clan. And where did I say they had others fight for them? I said external and internal sources. FOR only fits the Uchiha, they conquered whereas WITH is more towards the Senju whom recruit, with their peace-loving behavior. 99 Senju and 1 non-Senju still makes them Senju. You can't transmit talent unlike Sharingan and they even knew HOW to awaken it. 100 Uchiha shinobi and 10 would awaken the Sharingan, the 90 Uchiha would still try and more were likely to be successful (i.e Obito) whereas you can't become a prodigy.

Oh yeah, even after gaining their MS, the Senju had 1 mythically talented Senju shinobi to counter it. MS user needs at least 1 kage level Senju to counter them and that's against a 16 year old kid. Makes perfect sense. Again, you can't transmit talent to the next generation as the Uchiha did the Sharingan.

If you hadn't forgotten what I said in previous reply, I clearly said internal and external sources. External being recruiting individuals from other clan fighting with them. An individual doesn't make a clan, collective set of people does thus makes sense that they fought under Senju. 99 Senju and recruiting 1 non-Senju still makes them Senju. That's what it means to gather prodigies.

Judging from what you're saying, every single Senju would be capable of this feat since they would also inherit the Bloodline Limit and not Hashirama alone and even if they didn't, how could only 1 boast the Mokuton. You're making it seem more op than what it actually is despite calling it equal.

You do realize that they required prodigies just to counter the Sharingan, I.e. Out of 100 Senju, 10 were prodigies and need god's blessing to have a prodigy even among those as oppose to the MS trigger which is heighten emotion. You can't transmit talent unlike the Uchiha their "chances" through bloodline especially when they know how they could awaken it.

And you do realize that it was Senju Hashirama as the first Shodaime Hokage that was the first to come up with it? Yes, of course it doesn't with the rest non-Konoha shinobi but you seem to miss Tsunade bring it up with her fight against Madara. It defines Konoha shinobi in which Senju is a part of. Were those clans you mention were as famed or as strong (inheritance, prodigy wise) as the Senju?

Those potential are passed down regardless where talent couldn't, in addition, they knew how to awaken that potential.

For much, much less.

ANBU under direct command of the Hokage and the only shinobi with Shodaime's genes. That said, even among the ANBU he was sure to stand out. Plus you seem to forget Hiruzen was under both Hashirama and Tobirama's direct tutelage and Yamato being under him directly. Wasn't he called the God of Shinobi or Shinobi Professor or some such also? And you're attempting to justify Madara to Yamato whom doesn't even have the Sharingan. Use or train or practice or innate. What's next?

And I don't understand the part why you think that he didn't. Need never came into it when the Sharingan is involved. Sharingan gazes onto something, it pops up everything, discernable or otherwise. ... but should one find themselves in some kind of dire situation, the Uchiha blood will demonstrate its accumulated experience, and never will those who have inherited it know any limits (tn: i.e even if you can't use the jutsu you've copied, the info will still prove most useful provided you can rub two brain cells together)!! Tell me which part don't you understand?

They did? such as? The only prodigy that was ever mentioned was Hashirama. No other prodigy was named.

Not necessarily. MS was said to be unlocked through trauma/grief of killing a close one. You're still assuming that there's 5 MS awakening in 5 years or that MS was common.

So? Madara himself was a prodigy, as well as Izuna. They were both said to be the best of the clan at the time, just like how Hashirama was. The difference is, Hashirama was said to be the best of the shinobi world, or among the top. If the Uchiha was haxxed, then Madara would have been more known.

I still don't see how the Uchiha is haxxed when prodigies or not, they were still equal with Senju. Senju is still more haxxed for being able to compete with Uchiha despite Uchiha's "haxxness." You can't really prove Senju had prodigies to compete with Uchiha, other than Hashirama. It could have been regular ninjas for all we know that could rival the Uchiha.

What I'm saying that if Sharingan was haxxed, then Sasuke wouldn't have lost. He didn't need to lose to show Sharingan's capability to copy ninjutsu, though instant use depends on the jutsu used. If Lee did Lotus, Sasuke wouldn't be able to use it.

And regardless, my point still stands. Sharingan is useless if the welder isn't skilled enough. We saw that with Sasuke. He's a genius, an Uchiha, and had Sharingan, but still lost to Rock Lee because of Rock Lee's speed. There could have been fast Senju that took advantage of that against the Uchiha that actually had Sharingan.

While the whole point of that fight may have been to show Sharingan's ability to copy taijutsu, it also proved that Sharingan won't help much if the opponent is too fast.

Body of Senju and Uzumaki are different. Senju wasn't known for life longevity like Uzumaki. We don't know how many Senju there are or where they are, all we know is that Senju might still live on under different clan name.

Tsunade is still nearly immortal considering she can still heal most of her injuries. You can't compare Hashirama and Tsunade because of their skillset. Tsunade isn't meant to be a combat ninja, her main goal is to be a support medic nin. Hashirama however is a combat ninja with Mokuton, of course he'll be better than Tsunade. Hashirama still uses up chakra and I think jutsu to heal himself, but it's easier for him.

Yet they still survived in the long run - centuries of warring. Yet both truced, even the "haxxed" Uchiha. If Uchiha could have won, then they wouldn't have made peace with Senju.

Madara lost Izuna. Took his eyes to get EMS, which led to Izuna's death in battle, apparently. So, Hashirama had Tobirama. And regardless of whether other Uchiha did get Sharingan or MS, they didn't have a significant edge over Senju. The fact that Uchiha accepted the truce instead of fighting Senju shows that both were equal, despite Uchiha being haxxed or Madara. Why would Uchiha accept the truce even against Madara's wishes if they were truly powerful and "haxxed"? Why not kill their enemy and become the strongest?

At least they're probably still alive, unlike Uchiha. Plus, Uchiha and Hyuuga are more known as individual clans while Senju most likely assimilated with other clans.

Either way, out of Senju, Uzumaki, and Uchiha, it's known that Uchiha's almost completely wiped out by three people, maybe more. If it was truly "haxxed," it'd be dominant. Even though it was a surprise attack, a "haxxed" clan with numbers advantage shouldn't have gotten dominated so easily.

Assemble prodigies to bolster their power? You mean have other clans? Can you prove they did that while warring with Uchiha? Or for that same reason? Maybe they never cared about bolstering their power, but they or Hashirama simply wanted peace and stability like Rikudou Sennin.

You're making it look like every single Uchiha gained MS. Once again, Sharingan was rare among the Uchiha, MS was even rarer, and Susano'o was extremely rare. You can't really use this as an excuse unless it's said that all Uchiha unlocked Sharingan. Even then, it supports my argument more because Senju were still on par with Uchiha.

If the Uchiha past Sharingan was haxxed, then Madara would have beaten Hashirama, and Sasuke would have been Bee and the kage. Both he and Itachi would have easily beaten Kabuto without resorting to Izanami. Might as well admit Senju is equally as haxxed because both fought equally or almost equally for centuries, neither wiping the other out. Even during Madara's time, Senju was never wiped out.

Yeah, and it seems the databook was wrong and poor Tobirama, Nidaime Hokage. Text: Dreaded as "the thousand-handed clan", they gathered prodigies in all kinds of ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu techniques.

So how did Madara and Izuna gained their MS or Shisui for that matter or better yet, Kakashi? And where did I assume it was "common"? I said they had potential to awaken it and they knew how since Madara and Izuna whereas it's absolutely different from talent. That's the thing. Hashirama had Mokuton that was exclusively his whereas the MS has the potential of being awaken by other Sharingan user and they knew how after Madara and Izuna.
Databook 3, pg.92-93: Retelling Konoha's Foundation and Ch.398,pg17,p1 isn't proof enough?

Again, what the hell are you talking about? You seriously need to read everything that was written by me in response to King. Shows how much you've read and understood what I was saying in response to what King was implying before taking it up. LOL ... The whole point was about Rikudou's "body" inheritance, stamina and chakra and not comparing skill set nor combat capability.

Are we on the same page here? Madara and Izuna, first to awaken MS and it was only a matter of time before the others would follow suit. And if Senju didn't propose truce, then they will undoubtly be facing more than just 2 MS users. Shisui, Itachi, Sasuke, Tobi and Kakashi is in a single lifetime.
Did you miss the part where they were sick of fighting?

Again. LOL

3 people or more? And I thought there were 2. Past Sharingan, everything about the Uchiha is haxxed. What is past Sharingan for an Uchiha? MS. Don't take parts of my words just so you could make wild claims. I don't know how many times I've written it, either it escaped you completely or you're just deliberately doing it just to spite.
Text: Dreaded as "the thousand-handed clan", they gathered prodigies in all kinds of ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu techniques." and your own words - At least they're probably still alive, unlike Uchiha. Plus, Uchiha and Hyuuga are more known as individual clans while Senju most likely assimilated with other clans. So, then when you assimilate a Senju into Akimichi they become Akimichi and when it happens otherwise it isn't? Priceless.

LOL... I think I don't care to elaborate.

Do you know why Madara lost? Because Hashirama was the strongest of Senju prodigies, had the Mokuton kekkei genkai, bijuu manipulating skills and healing capability which I should remind you, was exclusively his. And you're comparing a 16 year old kid whom barely have experience in both his own MS and combat against shinobi whom had proven themselves in the previous 3rd Shinobi World War. And you seem to completely forget, Kabuto was augmented with Snake Senjutsu, 3 attributes from 3 different clans, Orochimaru's genes and they had to hold back so that the Edo Tense could be undone.

[Rikudou King]

have you ever trained in any sort of martial art?

the higher level moves are never taught outright. people have to go through the whole training process of foundation/basic moves for years before they're slowly introduced to higher and higher levels of moves

that's because training a person outright in one move would be near impossible without the foundations conditionig the bodily strength/stamina in incremental steps. if you taught a taekwondo whitebelt outright how to do a roundhouse+back thrust combo, he'd screw it up because he doesn't have the stats and experience to carry out the move. you'll end up with a person executing the move wrongly and getting that into his habits.

this is why people take incremental steps in learning martial arts, the very same steps i assume rock lee went through and naruto has to go through to achieve the same level in taijutsu.

sasuke had the sharingan copy+playback the moves specifically. even if his body couldnt' take the moves outright, his form is a direct replica of the (assuming) expert he copied it from, and he can just keep practising that move outright without the incremental conditioning steps.


anyone familiar with martial arts would immediately view sasuke's copying of lee's taijutsu as an immediate skip to black belt moves, with perfect form. there is no hesitation in viewing it as an asspull. you know the amount of training people take to reach blackbelt? the number of basic kicks you repeat over and over? like the tree stump lee kicked a hole into, the repeated punches that gave his knuckles scars?


of course sasuke worked hard. no one said it was an absolute asspull. the EMS is the only absolute asspull around giving instant hax at low cost.

but for every bit of sweat put in by sasuke vs by lee, sasuke will always gain far more than lee does. and that's the asspull.

Yes, I have.

Highest level moves? What are you talking about? Sasuke didn't copy like Lee's strongest attack or ace in the hole. All he copied was the upper kick of the Frontal Locus, which is a basic attack. There's nothing high level or complex about it. Even Naruto was able to copy it after seeing it once. One kick isn't an asspull. It's not as if Sasuke had copied the Reverse Lotus or Eight Gates. It was a simple kick, something one didn't need the Sharingan to mimic as shown by Naruto. And what more did Sasuke gain? His training for a month may have given him similar speed, but only for a shorter amount of time. There was no "far more" gained.

also, regarding your questionig of the sharingan being unable to copy+playback, i raise sasuke's copying of chuunin exam answers all over again. that, coupled with his copying of lee's moves and what i said above, pretty much shows this.
of course a normal person could copy a move outright from what he SEES. you used the example of lee copying Gai's moves.

in the case of lee, it's because lee has the foundation of being a taijutsu master to begin with. his 'copy' of gai's moves is his own interpretation with his own experience of what he thinks Gai is doing. this is like a black belt copying another black belt's moves. it took lee YEARS to perfect his rendan, however.

in the case of sasuke copying lee's high level move, it took him only a month. and kakashi never raised any issue about sasuke having to perfect it. all he did was play back the moves again and again.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-46-16/...hapter-41.html "look at his movements and COPY them"
http://www.mangareader.net/93-117-4/...apter-112.html "he's about the same speed as lee without his weights"
http://www.mangareader.net/93-117-6/...apter-112.html "how many years it took for me to gain that speed"
http://www.mangareader.net/93-117-7/...apter-112.html "sasuke had COPIED lee's taijutsu with his sharingan"

Again, it wasn't a high level move. It was a basic kick. Naruto preform the same trick a short while later in his fight. And as I said, there's nothing stating that Sasuke "playback" the moves like some video recorder. Copying doesn't mean he can play it back like a movie.

Where does it say the Senju were gifted with stamina, show me manga and databook facts. Everyone in Narutoverse is gifted with stamina if you missed it otherwise everyone would be dead. You base everything on Hashirama whom is considered "mythical" in his potential, enormous chakra, mokuton kekkei genkai, healing capability and the Uzumaki clan. And where did I say they had others fight for them? I said external and internal sources. FOR only fits the Uchiha, they conquered whereas WITH is more towards the Senju whom recruit, with their peace-loving behavior. 99 Senju and 1 non-Senju still makes them Senju. You can't transmit talent unlike Sharingan and they even knew HOW to awaken it. 100 Uchiha shinobi and 10 would awaken the Sharingan, the 90 Uchiha would still try and more were likely to be successful (i.e Obito) whereas you can't become a prodigy.

We were told so when we were told about their past. Having stamina doesn't mean gifted with stamina. Just look at the difference between Kakashi and Naruto. No, I'm not basing everything merely on Hashirama. It's clear the Senju were fully capable of holding their own against the Uchiha, else there would be no rivalry between them. Being a Senju is about blood. Other clans fighting under them doesn't make those clans Senju. Look at the Sarutobi clan, they had the Yamanaka, Nara, and Akimichi clans under their command for generations, but that doesn't make the three apart of the Sarutobi clan. And no, awakening the Sharingan was no that simple, otherwise it wouldn't be called rare and only possessed by the elites of the clan.

Text: Even within the clan, the lineage this Kekkei Genkai exclusively manifests itself in is a mere fraction. It harbors an insight that encompasses and fathoms all the principles behind Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and genjutsu, as well as a powerful hypnotic power. Above it, is the Mangekyou Sharingan, which has manifested itself in a barely a handful of people throughout history.

Link.

Oh yeah, even after gaining their MS, the Senju had 1 mythically talented Senju shinobi to counter it. MS user needs at least 1 kage level Senju to counter them and that's against a 16 year old kid. Makes perfect sense. Again, you can't transmit talent to the next generation as the Uchiha did the Sharingan.

Exactly what part of "Sasuke is a prodigy, heads above others" don't you get? Again, the likes of Madara, Itachi, and Sasuke were considered prodigies for a reason. They were above even the elites of the Uchiha clan. Why do you think they have been praised so much, if any Uchiha was capable of doing as they do? Heck, even amoung them, there's a huge difference of power. Just look at Sasuke vs Itachi. And once again, only a handful could gain the Sharingan, as it's rare. There was nothing being passed down except the odds of possibility gaining it.

If you hadn't forgotten what I said in previous reply, I clearly said internal and external sources. External being recruiting individuals from other clan fighting with them. An individual doesn't make a clan, collective set of people does thus makes sense that they fought under Senju. 99 Senju and recruiting 1 non-Senju still makes them Senju. That's what it means to gather prodigies.

And there's nothing suggesting they ran around gathering people just to manage against the Uchiha clan. And I already explained why they wouldn't be Senju. You keep bring up this "gathering prodigy" point, but ignoring the whole "fighting from the time of the brothers" point.

Judging from what you're saying, every single Senju would be capable of this feat since they would also inherit the Bloodline Limit and not Hashirama alone and even if they didn't, how could only 1 boast the Mokuton. You're making it seem more op than what it actually is despite calling it equal.

Did you miss my reference to Haku and Kimimaro? The former showed that bloodline abilities can skip generations and the latter showed that bloodline powers can manifest much superior in one member then in others.

You do realize that they required prodigies just to counter the Sharingan, I.e. Out of 100 Senju, 10 were prodigies and need god's blessing to have a prodigy even among those as oppose to the MS trigger which is heighten emotion. You can't transmit talent unlike the Uchiha their "chances" through bloodline especially when they know how they could awaken it.

Nothing suggest they had to gather "prodigies" in order to handle the Sharingan. If that was the case, why would the Senju clan be made out as their rivals or even praised by Tobi as such? You keep speaking like any Uchiha cold awaken the Sharingan, which it was clearly pointed out several times that only a rare few ever achieved it. And "prodigies" wouldn't have been needed.

And you do realize that it was Senju Hashirama as the first Shodaime Hokage that was the first to come up with it? Yes, of course it doesn't with the rest non-Konoha shinobi but you seem to miss Tsunade bring it up with her fight against Madara. It defines Konoha shinobi in which Senju is a part of. Were those clans you mention were as famed or as strong (inheritance, prodigy wise) as the Senju?

Those potential are passed down regardless where talent couldn't, in addition, they knew how to awaken that potential.

For much, much less.

Yes I realize that. What you seem to not realize is that the reference of "Will of Fire" was created for the village of Konoha. It wasn't some calling for just the Senju, it maintained by all the loyal ninjas of Konoha, including Uchiha. And no, just no.

ANBU under direct command of the Hokage and the only shinobi with Shodaime's genes. That said, even among the ANBU he was sure to stand out. Plus you seem to forget Hiruzen was under both Hashirama and Tobirama's direct tutelage and Yamato being under him directly. Wasn't he called the God of Shinobi or Shinobi Professor or some such also? And you're attempting to justify Madara to Yamato whom doesn't even have the Sharingan. Use or train or practice or innate. What's next?

Sure to stand out? There's nothing showing Yamato stood out over any other Anbu to deserve unique training. He wasn't even a captain. Regardless, the point still remains that Yamato was capable of mastering Hashrama's ability without having to copy it. Even if he was told what Hashirama could do, he would still have to discover it on his own.

And I don't understand the part why you think that he didn't. Need never came into it when the Sharingan is involved. Sharingan gazes onto something, it pops up everything, discernable or otherwise. ... but should one find themselves in some kind of dire situation, the Uchiha blood will demonstrate its accumulated experience, and never will those who have inherited it know any limits (tn: i.e even if you can't use the jutsu you've copied, the info will still prove most useful provided you can rub two brain cells together)!! Tell me which part don't you understand?

You're reaching. That statement says nothing about magically preforming a technique just because it was seen. The translator's comment was clearly about the insight providing important information. In addition, it wouldn't even fit in this situation. Madara wasn't in some "dire situation", he was playing around.

[metalia]

No it is not. Sasuke trained for a month but couldn't keep up with Rock Lee's level of speed, he got tired fast enough. Which again brings us back to the particular Uchiha needing the skills. If they don't have the endurance or stamina, they won't be able to do high-speed taijutsu for long, IF they even have the speed to do so.

So if Rock Lee fights against a Rock Lee that has Sharingan, who will win the taijutsu battle? <- That's what I wanted to point. Sharingan brings an advantage to taijutsu, so far the best advantage we have seen. If two equally trained shinobi fight in taijutsu, Uchiha will always, always win.

Uchiha doesn't have the best ninjutsu either. Amaterasu? Sasuke and Raikage managed to avoid Amaterasu. Tsukuyomi? Bee and Danzou managed to break it. Susano'o? Raikage, Tsunade, and Danzou have broken Susano'o before, whether riblets or skeletal version. Their genjutsu can still be broken out of.

So? Which is the best ninjutsu and genjutsu technique? Plus Zetsu doesn't aprove:
[Manga 389] Quoting: The left mangekyo posseses the most powerful genjutsu. The right eye holds the most powerful physical attack.

And all that's assuming IF they get Sharingan. Doesn't look "haxx" to me.

Yes, you do need to show manga proof because we have seen Mokuton beat EMS once and for all. We have seen a copy Mokuton user stand being stabbed with a chidori sword without suffering serious injury. Senju as a whole being better would not matter if Uchiha was "haxxed," they'd still be beaten.

You could also show manga proof to support that statement "We have seen Mokuton beat EMS once and for all." We only have "seen" (heard most likely) Hashirama beating Madara, plus we don't even know if that was Madara's plan or not. And we don't know either if Madara was defeated because of Mokuton or because of something else. In fact, what we have seen, is the Sharingan being the best kekkei genkai. Again I won't show manga proof of this because this is as real as the fact that Naruto's hair is yellow. It is stated everywhere that the Sharingan is simply the best kekkei.

No, Senju were good enough to keep up with Uchiha. Nothin to do with "haxx," it just looks like an excuse to hate on Uchiha. If someone was "haxx," like Naruto, it wouldn't matter how good their opponents were, they'd still win. And why are people ignoring the fact that their kekkei genkai means nothing if it's not activated? Seriously getting annoyed with people ignoring the fact that Sharingan was rare among Uchiha. Basically, most Uchiha fought without having have activated their Sharingan.

I never said all Senju could use Mokuton. We don't even know if they could, especially since it was said Mokuton was very rare. It could jsut as very well be Uchiha weren't "haxxed" or Senju were more "haxxed."

They don't necessarily have the best kekkei. At least back in Part I, it wasn't the best. Madara may not have been able to do anything against Kimimaro, and he certainly had trouble with Gaara, Oonoki, and Naruto.

Lol. I don't hate Uchiha if you were talking bout me. But anyway, I agree with that paragraph. Uchiha not always awake their habilities, but that doesn't mean the Sharingan is inferior to mokuton. The Uchiha clan, as a hole, was inferior to Senjuu on that time, that's why senjuu became Kages and Uchiha didn't. But you can't say Uchiha are less than Senjuu just because Hashirama (strongest mokuton user) won Madara (strongest Sharingan user). By that logic, I can really say Uchiha are better now, because Sasuke (strongest Sharingan user) won Danzo and can anihilate Yamato any time (One having Hashirama implanted and the other one being a clone of Hashirama).

Plus now that I mention Danzo. What was his secret technique and last weapon? Izanagi. Why he didn't chose a mokuton technique to be his mastercard? Easy: because Sharingan >>> Mokuton. The same with Madara, despite having Hashirama's habilities, when he grew tired of the fight, he used Susano'o (which, according to himself [Manga 589] "My Susano'o is destruction itself. As powerful as the tailed beasts".) because Sharingan >>> Mokuton.

One last thing. I don't know where have u seen that Uchiha usually don't achieve the Sharingan. I think I also heard it somewhere so it's ok. But, according to last mangas... It seems to me that lots of Uchiha had MS back then, "everyone around using Izanagi" is what Itachi made me understand lol. So it seems a lot of powerful Uchiha, so much Izanagi usage, that they even created a punishment technique (Izanami).

[Kid Chameleone]

Do you know why Madara lost? Because Hashirama was the strongest of Senju prodigies, had the Mokuton kekkei genkai, bijuu manipulating skills and healing capability which I should remind you, was exclusively his. And you're comparing a 16 year old kid whom barely have experience in both his own MS and combat against shinobi whom had proven themselves in the previous 3rd Shinobi World War. And you seem to completely forget, Kabuto was augmented with Snake Senjutsu, 3 attributes from 3 different clans, Orochimaru's genes and they had to hold back so that the Edo Tense could be undone.

This is what ive been saying the whole time. you cant argue with that guy he thinks he wrote the manga

sauske fought significantly older people who had many years of experience on him, for you to say that he has the same experience as oro or killer b is bs they have years of battle experience on him. sasuke is what like 16? killer be and deidara have years on him and many more battles so of course hes gonna have a hard time but the fact is he WON those fights because of his sharigan. if he didnt see the bombs underground he wouldve died and if he didnt have amaterasu against bee he wouldve died so yeah sharingan is pretty op if your beating people significantly older and better than you with one cheap handicap

Highest level moves? What are you talking about? Sasuke didn't copy like Lee's strongest attack or ace in the hole. All he copied was the upper kick of the Frontal Locus, which is a basic attack. There's nothing high level or complex about it. Even Naruto was able to copy it after seeing it once. One kick isn't an asspull. It's not as if Sasuke had copied the Reverse Lotus or Eight Gates. It was a simple kick, something one didn't need the Sharingan to mimic as shown by Naruto. And what more did Sasuke gain? His training for a month may have given him similar speed, but only for a shorter amount of time. There was no "far more" gained.

this however is garbage. sauske copyied lees jutsu in an instant, naruto didnt copy it he made his own variation as to why he performed it with 3 clones. sauske gained all of lees attributes in a month while lee took years to gain them. they may have tired him out faster but the point is he still copied them. also for a sharingan user to copy a move they have to be able to physically handle it, sasuke cant unlock the gates so he couldnt copy the lotus and hes never even seen the full thing so youre also wrong there, we dont know if he couldve performed it or not after seeing how lees chakra wouldve released in his body.

Both he and Itachi would have easily beaten Kabuto without resorting to Izanami

this is so WRONG. itachi used izamani to help kabuto get a second chance at life unlike he did. do you only not read the manga or do you only look at the pictures? he just said this in the chapters like 2 weeks ago guy it should still be fresh

Regardless, the point still remains that Yamato was capable of mastering Hashrama's ability without having to copy it.

Yamato was experimented on by oro so wood style became his element, he didnt have to copy it since it was now technically his. thats like saying everyone is born without an element and can randomly pick and choose what they get with simple training or copying someones style and if that was the case there would be a lot more wood users than 2.

I've said this like three times already but ill say it again Just because they were rivals doesnt mean they were equals theres always gonna be a stronger clan regardless of how little it is, and which clan has the better bloodline and abilities? uchiha, so im gonna call it as i see it and as kishi wrote in the databooks and showed us in the manga

[moonshard]

@ Kid Chameleone
@ metalia

A few things I found out about this discussion is the refusal to admit the MS is op in which the current war revolves around: The Moon's Eye Plan by casting Tsukuyumi, an MS doujutsu, and completely subdues the whole world with a wink, the ability of a fractious winker to subdue the bijuu, the fact that talent was used to measure up to all the fractious winking and bloodline superiority, the fact that a fraction winker can suppress the many, the inexperience winker could outdo the experienced and the fact that Naruto needs Kurama's chakra and Toad Senjutsu to rival an MS winking Sasuke. The more I read the replies the more ridiculous the attempt to make it look like it isn't op, so this would be the last reply on the matter. The facts are as clear as day and even if it hits square in the jaw, they wouldn't even notice it. LOL.

- Fin

[Kid Chameleone]

@ Kid Chameleone
@ metalia

A few things I found out about this discussion is the refusal to admit the MS is op in which the current war revolves around: The Moon's Eye Plan by casting Tsukuyumi, an MS doujutsu, and completely subdues the whole world with a wink, the ability of a fractious winker to subdue the bijuu, the fact that talent was used to measure up to all the fractious winking and bloodline superiority, the fact that a fraction winker can suppress the many, the inexperience winker could outdo the experienced and the fact that Naruto needs Kurama's chakra and Toad Senjutsu to rival an MS winking Sasuke. The more I read the replies the more ridiculous the attempt to make it look like it isn't op, so this would be the last reply on the matter. The facts are as clear as day and even if it hits square in the jaw, they wouldn't even notice it. LOL.

- Fin

i dont know who you are but thank you LOOL it feels like someone finally understands what im saying.

i started this thread to find out how the senju could rival the uchiha not to get into an argument about something i already knew lol. the uchiha have the best bloodline. FACT. All i want to see is something from the senju that can rival them or atleast would make them a threat but they have none so yeah im going by what was already said and kishi wrote, sharingan is best bloodline.

people are trying to water it down but you cant, if it wasnt that powerful orochimaru ,tobi, sasuke, itachi and danzo wouldnt have a need for it and the story would have no plot without it so yeah sharingan = op. plus it can evolve into the rinnengan... case closed

[union98]

i dont know who you are but thank you LOOL it feels like someone finally understands what im saying.

i started this thread to find out how the senju could rival the uchiha not to get into an argument about something i already knew lol. the uchiha have the best bloodline. FACT. All i want to see is something from the senju that can rival them or atleast would make them a threat but they have none so yeah im going by what was already said and kishi wrote, sharingan is best bloodline.

people are trying to water it down but you cant, if it wasnt that powerful orochimaru ,tobi, sasuke, itachi and danzo wouldnt have a need for it and the story would have no plot without it so yeah sharingan = op. plus it can evolve into the rinnengan... case closed

I would have to agree with this. Sharingan is without a doubt the best overall bloodline when talking about a whole clan. I don't know if I could say it's the best overall ABILITY. It's tough to compare because we've really only seen one full-blooded senju and that's the first Hokage. The other senju's are descendants such is the case with the Uzumaki clan. They have great sealing abilities and apparently the senju as a clan pride themselves in their regenerative and healing abilities, but these are abilities which are specific to the clan but aren't necessarily a kekkei genkai. So are we talking about kekkei genkai or are we talking about clans? If we're going based off of clan representatives, then you could almost argue the senju are the strongest clan since the strongest senju defeated the strongest Uchiha...

[Rikudou King]

sauske fought significantly older people who had many years of experience on him, for you to say that he has the same experience as oro or killer b is bs they have years of battle experience on him. sasuke is what like 16? killer be and deidara have years on him and many more battles so of course hes gonna have a hard time but the fact is he WON those fights because of his sharigan. if he didnt see the bombs underground he wouldve died and if he didnt have amaterasu against bee he wouldve died so yeah sharingan is pretty op if your beating people significantly older and better than you with one cheap handicap

So has Shikamaru, Naruto, and Gaara. Sasuke isn't the only young person to fight someone older and win. So calling him out for it is pointless. Heck, that's one of the themes of the series, the younger generation surpassing the old.

And you're understating things. It wasn't just due to his Sharingan that he got those wins. It was only one factor in many and pretty minor on it's own. Against Deudara, his Sharingan did allow him to see the bombs, but that still wouldn't have saved him if he hadn't had CS2 and a lightning nature. And against Kirabi, you're ignoring the fact that Kirabi nearly killed Sasuke twice and his Sharingan/MS didn't help his survive much those times. Having just the Sharingan wouldn't have helped at all in those situations. And I asked before, if experience was such a major factor, then shouldn't having experience and the Sharingan mean an instant win? Yet we've seen the exact opposite of that throughout the series.

this however is garbage. sauske copyied lees jutsu in an instant, naruto didnt copy it he made his own variation as to why he performed it with 3 clones. sauske gained all of lees attributes in a month while lee took years to gain them. they may have tired him out faster but the point is he still copied them. also for a sharingan user to copy a move they have to be able to physically handle it, sasuke cant unlock the gates so he couldnt copy the lotus and hes never even seen the full thing so youre also wrong there, we dont know if he couldve performed it or not after seeing how lees chakra wouldve released in his body.

Sasuke copied a single kick. That's all. He also did the shadowing move along with it, but that wasn't copied since Lee used it behind Sasuke, out of sight of the Sharingan. Regardless, Sasuke saw and copied a single action. And Sasuke didn't gain all of Lee's attributes in a month. He gain similar speed, but it was made clear he couldn't maintain it as long as Lee precisely because he hadn't been training as long. And the point of my examples were to point out that calling the kick, a "high level move" is overstating it.

this is so WRONG. itachi used izamani to help kabuto get a second chance at life unlike he did. do you only not read the manga or do you only look at the pictures? he just said this in the chapters like 2 weeks ago guy it should still be fresh

How is it wrong? Itachi choosing to help Kabuto doesn't change that he had both Sasuke and Itachi on the ropes? You claim that the Sharingan is overpowered, yet ignore all the trouble the users have had in battle.

Yamato was experimented on by oro so wood style became his element, he didnt have to copy it since it was now technically his. thats like saying everyone is born without an element and can randomly pick and choose what they get with simple training or copying someones style and if that was the case there would be a lot more wood users than 2.

That's the point I was trying to make. Madara and Yamato being implanted with Mokuton meant they would have naturally been capable of using those techniques without having to copy anything.

I've said this like three times already but ill say it again Just because they were rivals doesnt mean they were equals theres always gonna be a stronger clan regardless of how little it is, and which clan has the better bloodline and abilities? uchiha, so im gonna call it as i see it and as kishi wrote in the databooks and showed us in the manga

If they weren't equal, if the Senju were below them, why would the Uchiha clan be the ones to get the short end of the stick in the forming of the village? Why would they have to secretly start plotting a coup instead of just mowing through the village if they had such power? Why would Tobi and Madara have such respect for someone beneath them? Those two are not the sort to throw around respect. For that matter, why would, if the Sharingan/MS/EMS so haxed, would Madara go through all the trouble of getting Mokuton to gain the Rinnegan? And you still haven't countered the dozens of examples I gave of non-Uchiha's being capable of dealing with both the Sharingan and MS...

A few things I found out about this discussion is the refusal to admit the MS is op in which the current war revolves around: The Moon's Eye Plan by casting Tsukuyumi, an MS doujutsu, and completely subdues the whole world with a wink, the ability of a fractious winker to subdue the bijuu, the fact that talent was used to measure up to all the fractious winking and bloodline superiority, the fact that a fraction winker can suppress the many, the inexperience winker could outdo the experienced and the fact that Naruto needs Kurama's chakra and Toad Senjutsu to rival an MS winking Sasuke. The more I read the replies the more ridiculous the attempt to make it look like it isn't op, so this would be the last reply on the matter. The facts are as clear as day and even if it hits square in the jaw, they wouldn't even notice it. LOL.

- Fin

No one's denying that MS is powerful, but it's power is offset by major drawbacks and limitations, something no other powerful technique has.

Yes, the war revolves around the Moon Eye plan, which required the power of all nine Bijuu and Mokuton to complete. How exactly does requiring the power of the Juubi and gaining power similar to the Rikudou Sennin, entail that the regular MS is haxed? Subduing a Bijuu takes alot of power, as we saw with the Kyuubi attack on Konoha, and even Minato implied that someone of Madara's power wouldn't even be able to hold it for long. And note, that Tobi used Kushina's ability in addition to the Sharingan to control the Bijuus he had, so clearly it's not as simple as just a wink. And finally, Naruto didn't need the Kyuubi's chakra and Sage Mode to rival the MS. Don't know where you got that idea from.

i dont know who you are but thank you LOOL it feels like someone finally understands what im saying.

i started this thread to find out how the senju could rival the uchiha not to get into an argument about something i already knew lol. the uchiha have the best bloodline. FACT. All i want to see is something from the senju that can rival them or atleast would make them a threat but they have none so yeah im going by what was already said and kishi wrote, sharingan is best bloodline.

people are trying to water it down but you cant, if it wasnt that powerful orochimaru ,tobi, sasuke, itachi and danzo wouldnt have a need for it and the story would have no plot without it so yeah sharingan = op. plus it can evolve into the rinnengan... case closed

You would understand how the Senju could rival the Uchiha if you just read the series, or merely my post:

Zabuza and Mei showed that the Hidden Mist could blind the Sharingan's sight, Lee and Ee showed that the prediction ability was meaningless if the user couldn't keep up, Naruto showed us how clones can get around the Sharingan's ability, Chiyo told us how two against one was regularly used against the Sharingan's genjutsu threat, Deidara even trained one eye to act as a genjutsu counter, Sasuke and Ee both showed Amaterasu could be evaded, Tsunade showed chakra enhanced strength could damage even Susanoo, and this isn't even factoring in unique abilities like Mei's lava or Gaara's sand. The Uchiha clan being a powerful clan doesn't mean they were untouchable or even that they couldn't be overcome without even needing special powers.

We have over a dozen of examples of non-Senju people dealing with and managing against the Sharingan. Employing any of those tactics would have allowed the Senju to fight evenly with the Sharingan. Add to that the drawbacks of MS and the rarity of an Uchiha possessing the Sharingan, and it's should be obvious how the Senju did it. And you do realize that Orochimaru, Tobi, and Danzo wanted it for specific reasons, to gain the Rinnegan and to control the Kyuubi respectfully. If the Sharingan and it's evolutions were enough, why would the strongest Uchiha, Madara, go through the work of gaining Rinnegan?

[M3J]

So how did Madara and Izuna gained their MS or Shisui for that matter or better yet, Kakashi? And where did I assume it was "common"? I said they had potential to awaken it and they knew how since Madara and Izuna whereas it's absolutely different from talent. That's the thing. Hashirama had Mokuton that was exclusively his whereas the MS has the potential of being awaken by other Sharingan user and they knew how after Madara and Izuna.
Databook 3, pg.92-93: Retelling Konoha's Foundation and Ch.398,pg17,p1 isn't proof enough?

Madara, Izuna, and Shisui may have gotten their MS from losing someone close to them or having to kill their friends. You're assuming MS can be unlocked easily based on three Uchiha that we have little to no info about. We do know that Madara and Izuna were in constant battles, and there's likely to have been deaths.

From the looks of it, they assumed how to awaken it. Even the brothers didn't know why Madara was losing his eyesight, so they would have likely gone on assumptions.

Even MS isn't gonna help the Uchiha that aren't good in battle. Give Tenten MS and Uchiha blood, and she'll still probably be useless even against Temari.

Again, what the hell are you talking about? You seriously need to read everything that was written by me in response to King. Shows how much you've read and understood what I was saying in response to what King was implying before taking it up. LOL ... The whole point was about Rikudou's "body" inheritance, stamina and chakra and not comparing skill set nor combat capability.

If we go by Tsunade and Hashirama, two Senju we've seen or heard about, then Senju has higher stamina than Uchiha. That's pretty useful because Senju can last longer and use more jutsu against an Uchiha. Sharingan may help Uchiha counter jutsu, but if they get tired easily, it's not gonna mean much.

Are we on the same page here? Madara and Izuna, first to awaken MS and it was only a matter of time before the others would follow suit. And if Senju didn't propose truce, then they will undoubtly be facing more than just 2 MS users. Shisui, Itachi, Sasuke, Tobi and Kakashi is in a single lifetime.
Did you miss the part where they were sick of fighting?

They had enough time to awaken MS, from the looks of it. Not sure how long it took between both brothers awakening MS to the truce, but if it took months, then that was plenty of time for any Uchiha with Sharingan to gain MS. Yet they still accepted the truce.

Izuna died before the truce, so it would have been just one EMS user at the time. If time went by, then it might have been more than one MS user. But we don't know how many MS users there were when the truce was proposed, yet Uchiha still accepted. Tobi has not shown to have MS. Manga has stated Shisui, Itachi, and Sasuke were prodigies of their clan, and Itachi or Tobi made it so Sasuke would gain MS. If it weren't for either or both of them, Sasuke would still have Sharingan. Kakashi is still an unknown, but he is a genius. So far, we have seen prodigies gain MS, not any random Uchiha.

No I did not. If they were sick of fighting, that means they knew they couldn't beat Senju for a long time. They accepted the truce, something they wouldn't have done if they knew they'd win. Why would the Uchiha accept the truce, despite being tired of fighting, if they were "haxxed?" Why not finish off their greatest enemy and become the top clan if they had the power to do so?

3 people or more? And I thought there were 2. Past Sharingan, everything about the Uchiha is haxxed. What is past Sharingan for an Uchiha? MS. Don't take parts of my words just so you could make wild claims. I don't know how many times I've written it, either it escaped you completely or you're just deliberately doing it just to spite.
Text: Dreaded as "the thousand-handed clan", they gathered prodigies in all kinds of ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu techniques." and your own words - At least they're probably still alive, unlike Uchiha. Plus, Uchiha and Hyuuga are more known as individual clans while Senju most likely assimilated with other clans. So, then when you assimilate a Senju into Akimichi they become Akimichi and when it happens otherwise it isn't? Priceless.

Oh, k. MS still isn't "haxxed" since if the person has the required skills, then they won't be affected by MS. Raikage had the required skills to fight MS, Sasuke had the skills to fight MS, and apparently Naruto now has the skills to fight the MS. I will admit MS is too good a weapon against majority of the shinobi though. Only reason I'm not saying it's "haxxed" is because of what the manga has shown us. If Sasuke beat every opponent ever since he got his MS, I'd agree. Only one person makes it look "haxxed," and that's Itachi because of Tsukuyomi and Susano'o.

Similar to how Mito became a Senju, why can't a Senju become an Akimichi or Nara or whatever? Your own Naruto Wiki says Senju may have assimilated with other clans. I don't see why not, especially since they've been gathering prodigies from other clans. Hell, Naruto's surname is his mother's, not his father's, though to protect him from Minato's enemies. Senju could have also spread out all around the village, country, or world like Uzuamaki did after the village was destroyed.

Do you know why Madara lost? Because Hashirama was the strongest of Senju prodigies, had the Mokuton kekkei genkai, bijuu manipulating skills and healing capability which I should remind you, was exclusively his. And you're comparing a 16 year old kid whom barely have experience in both his own MS and combat against shinobi whom had proven themselves in the previous 3rd Shinobi World War. And you seem to completely forget, Kabuto was augmented with Snake Senjutsu, 3 attributes from 3 different clans, Orochimaru's genes and they had to hold back so that the Edo Tense could be undone.

So in other words, Hashirama was more "haxxed" than Madara.

No, I'm saying if MS was truly "haxxed," then age or experience wouldn't have mattered, Sasuke would have still won. That's what "haxx" is, example being Itachi. Susano'o with the Sword and Shield, Izanami, Tsukuyomi, etc. He's virtually unbeatable, and possibly the only "haxxed" MS user, Madara pre-VotE fight coming a close second.

Kabuto was also holding back because he didn't want to kill Sasuke and possibly use Itachi to either get Sasuke to join him or get control back.

So if Rock Lee fights against a Rock Lee that has Sharingan, who will win the taijutsu battle? <- That's what I wanted to point. Sharingan brings an advantage to taijutsu, so far the best advantage we have seen. If two equally trained shinobi fight in taijutsu, Uchiha will always, always win.

Not always, it also depends on the skills of both enemies. If the Rock Lee without Sharingan is smarter than the Rock Lee with Sharingan, he has more chances of winning. In a pure taijutsu battle, Sharingan would likely win. But fortunately, more than taijutsu is involved, like planning and weapons and etc.

So? Which is the best ninjutsu and genjutsu technique? Plus Zetsu doesn't aprove:
[Manga 389] Quoting: The left mangekyo posseses the most powerful genjutsu. The right eye holds the most powerful physical attack.

Statements aren't facts. one has said Tsukuyomi is the most powerful genjutsu while another has said KA is the most powerful genjutsu. Statements are statements, characters' opinions. You can't just take statements as facts, you also have to take in what is shown. Kishi isn't the one saying things through characters, he's showing what they think.

You could also show manga proof to support that statement "We have seen Mokuton beat EMS once and for all." We only have "seen" (heard most likely) Hashirama beating Madara, plus we don't even know if that was Madara's plan or not. And we don't know either if Madara was defeated because of Mokuton or because of something else. In fact, what we have seen, is the Sharingan being the best kekkei genkai. Again I won't show manga proof of this because this is as real as the fact that Naruto's hair is yellow. It is stated everywhere that the Sharingan is simply the best kekkei.

Madara's plan wasn't to lose to Hashirama, according to Tobi. Why would he lose, especially when it made him a former shell of himself?

Manga proof is in countless of people saying Hashirama beat Madara. Though 'once and for all' may not be accurate at this point because we don't know how Hashirama died, and Madara still lived.

Mokuton or not, it's been said that Hashirama finally beat Madara at VotE to the point that Madara was thought to be dead.

Sharingan isn't the best kekkei genkai. Yeah, it belongs on top five list of best kekkei genkai, but it certainly isn't the best. It really depends on how good the wielder is. Pit Obito with EMS against Raikage and he'd still likely lose. Replace him with Sasuke, and Sasuke has a better chance of winning, though he'd probably lose because of his speed. Give Itachi EMS, and he'd probably win.

If Sharingan was the best kekkei genkai, we'd see more Sharingan users as among the top shinobi. Although Kakashi's nickname comes from his Sharingan, he's still a genius aided by Sharingan, making the best use of Sharingan. And unlike Sharingan, Byakugan can be awakened by any Hyuuga regardless of talent or emotion. If Sharingan was easy to unlock, and if MS could be easily achieved, then yeah, I'd agree that Sharingan is the best kekkei genkai and most likely overpowered, apart from the slow blindness that occurs.

Lol. I don't hate Uchiha if you were talking bout me. But anyway, I agree with that paragraph. Uchiha not always awake their habilities, but that doesn't mean the Sharingan is inferior to mokuton. The Uchiha clan, as a hole, was inferior to Senjuu on that time, that's why senjuu became Kages and Uchiha didn't. But you can't say Uchiha are less than Senjuu just because Hashirama (strongest mokuton user) won Madara (strongest Sharingan user). By that logic, I can really say Uchiha are better now, because Sasuke (strongest Sharingan user) won Danzo and can anihilate Yamato any time (One having Hashirama implanted and the other one being a clone of Hashirama).

Sasuke was unable to kill or keep Yamato down for long, despite stabbing him right in the chest and numbing him. Apart from Kimimaro's kekkei genkai, almost all kekkei genkai look inferior to Mokuton. Mokuton can be used short range, long range, help heal, create a huge forest, and so much more. Sharingan does not have that ability.

I'm not using Hashirama vs. Madara to say that Senju > Uchiha, or that they're even better. I'm using their history. Uchiha's inability to wipe out Senju, even after MS was unlocked, despite centuries of fighting, indicates that neither clan was superior for centuries. Maybe little bit superior, but not enough to really change the results.

Different logic as Danzou and Yamato's skills with Mokuton are nowhere near Hashirama's. Yamato didn't even look to have a serious injury despite being stabbed after using Mokuton to push the sword away. Danzou is a horrible example as he didn't have the chakra to make most use of MOkuton, just like Yamato didn't have the chakra.

Plus now that I mention Danzo. What was his secret technique and last weapon? Izanagi. Why he didn't chose a mokuton technique to be his mastercard? Easy: because Sharingan >>> Mokuton. The same with Madara, despite having Hashirama's habilities, when he grew tired of the fight, he used Susano'o (which, according to himself [Manga 589] "My Susano'o is destruction itself. As powerful as the tailed beasts".) because Sharingan >>> Mokuton.

Because Izanagi is different from Mokuton. Danzou did not have the chakra to constantly use Mokuton or the ability to use it on Hashirama's level. He couldn't maintain control over it for too long either. Izanagi however was easy for Danzou since he had tons of Sharingan to use. You're not looking at the reasons. We saw with Danzou that it was difficult to control Mokuton, opposed to being able to do Izanagi easily.

If Sharingan > Mokuton, then Hashirama would not have beaten Madara. If Sharingan > Mokuton, then Sasuke would have killed Yamato. despite Madara's Susano'o, Hashirama still beat Madara. Mokuton can do more than Sharingan.

One last thing. I don't know where have u seen that Uchiha usually don't achieve the Sharingan. I think I also heard it somewhere so it's ok. But, according to last mangas... It seems to me that lots of Uchiha had MS back then, "everyone around using Izanagi" is what Itachi made me understand lol. So it seems a lot of powerful Uchiha, so much Izanagi usage, that they even created a punishment technique (Izanami).

Sasuke said it in Part I if I recall when we first saw Kakashi's Sharingan. It's been said many times, especially in the databook and Naruto Wiki. I'd like to call bullshit on what Kishi said though, but we don't know if the rarity applied back durin the war despite no mention of that. Thanks to Obito, if Kishi says Sharingan was still rare before Konoha being founded, it'll be bullshit.

Um, I did already say that Izanagi didn't require MS. Izanami might have, but Izanagi didn't. We have at least eleven proofs, from two shinobi. For all we know, Izanagi could have been after Konoha was founded. Isn't it weird how despite Izanagi, Uchiha didn't gain an edge? or Madara was unable to kill Hashirama? We know he didn't use Izanagi until he was damaged badly otherwise he wouldn't have been a former shell of himself, not like Tobi is, anyway.

This is what ive been saying the whole time. you cant argue with that guy he thinks he wrote the manga

Just because I use what we see in the manga as facts instead of what's said? Actions can't be refuted. I can give you examples of what I mean by this, and even the manga shows that you can't believe everything characters say.

sauske fought significantly older people who had many years of experience on him, for you to say that he has the same experience as oro or killer b is bs they have years of battle experience on him. sasuke is what like 16? killer be and deidara have years on him and many more battles so of course hes gonna have a hard time but the fact is he WON those fights because of his sharigan. if he didnt see the bombs underground he wouldve died and if he didnt have amaterasu against bee he wouldve died so yeah sharingan is pretty op if your beating people significantly older and better than you with one cheap handicap

no, he would have died before even using his MS if it weren't for Karin and Juugo. Bee still got away with it. Sharingan is in no way OP, and Uchiha/Sharingan is in no way "haxxed." If it was, age would not have mattered, neither would experience. Sasuke would have still won, not nearly be killed or be saved. If Sharingan was haxxed, Madara, Sasuke, Obito, and Kakashi would win every battle.

He didn't win because of his Sharingan. Sasuke still outsmarted Deidara and managed to use his skills.

this however is garbage. sauske copyied lees jutsu in an instant, naruto didnt copy it he made his own variation as to why he performed it with 3 clones. sauske gained all of lees attributes in a month while lee took years to gain them. they may have tired him out faster but the point is he still copied them. also for a sharingan user to copy a move they have to be able to physically handle it, sasuke cant unlock the gates so he couldnt copy the lotus and hes never even seen the full thing so youre also wrong there, we dont know if he couldve performed it or not after seeing how lees chakra wouldve released in his body.

Sasuke didn't gain all of Lee's attributes in a month. the manga itself says that Sasuke couldn't keep up with Lee. In battle of speed, Lee would have won just because he could last longer and potentially go faster.

Naruto copied it and made his own variation of it. Sasuke made his own variation of the move too - instead of doing Lotus he came up with Shishi Rendan.

Sharingan copies what can be copied. opening the gates can't be copied, neither can Lotus since it apparently requires opening the gates. You're acting as if everything Sharingan sees can be copied and used - while it may be copied, it can't be used if its wielder doesn't have the ability to use it.

I've said this like three times already but ill say it again Just because they were rivals doesnt mean they were equals theres always gonna be a stronger clan regardless of how little it is, and which clan has the better bloodline and abilities? uchiha, so im gonna call it as i see it and as kishi wrote in the databooks and showed us in the manga

no, you're gonna call it as how you hope to see it. If Uchiha has better bloodline and abilities, then they would have wiped out Senju long ago. As of now, they're more equal than superior.

If the Uchiha was "haxxed," once again, Senju would have been wiped out long before Hashirama and Madara's time. Uchiha would not have accepted the peace treaty with Senju, they would have continued fighting, if they were "haxxed." Sasuke would have beaten Killerbee, Raikage, Kazekage, and not have to be saved by Tobi or Taka.

@ Kid Chameleone
@ metalia

A few things I found out about this discussion is the refusal to admit the MS is op in which the current war revolves around: The Moon's Eye Plan by casting Tsukuyumi, an MS doujutsu, and completely subdues the whole world with a wink, the ability of a fractious winker to subdue the bijuu, the fact that talent was used to measure up to all the fractious winking and bloodline superiority, the fact that a fraction winker can suppress the many, the inexperience winker could outdo the experienced and the fact that Naruto needs Kurama's chakra and Toad Senjutsu to rival an MS winking Sasuke. The more I read the replies the more ridiculous the attempt to make it look like it isn't op, so this would be the last reply on the matter. The facts are as clear as day and even if it hits square in the jaw, they wouldn't even notice it. LOL.

- Fin

A wink? What? Good job exaggerating things. You can exaggerate all you want, call our argument ridiculous all you want, but it's pretty much clear that MS isn't as OP as you make it out to be. Sasuke still got owned by Killerbee, would have been owned by Raikage and Gaara, and had to get his ass saved by Tobi and Zetsu, thrice. even back in Part I, Sasuke lost to Haku, Rock Lee, and Gaara, whereas Naruto beat Haku and Gaara and was able to keep up with Raikage. Madara still lost to Hashirama, and Tobi got owned by Minato.

You can ignore manga facts all you want, but it's clear that MS isn't as overpowered. You can complain about Naruto getting Kyuubi chakra to equal Sasuke's MS, but even without MS or Sharingan, Sasuke has shown to be superior to Naruto in Part II.

Wanna whine about how Sharingan makes one overpowered? Why not whine about how Byakugan makes one overpowered - any Hyuuga can unlock it and once they do, they can kill anyone with one touch. Just send chakra in to destroy the organs. Neither Sharingan nor Uchiha has that power. The only time we saw Sharingan or MS one-shot anyone was when Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi, which is still questionable, and when Sasuke used genjutsu on Jay to find Killerbee's whereabouts.

Of course, ignore facts that make Uchiha look less "haxxed."

i started this thread to find out how the senju could rival the uchiha not to get into an argument about something i already knew lol. the uchiha have the best bloodline. FACT. All i want to see is something from the senju that can rival them or atleast would make them a threat but they have none so yeah im going by what was already said and kishi wrote, sharingan is best bloodline.

people are trying to water it down but you cant, if it wasnt that powerful orochimaru ,tobi, sasuke, itachi and danzo wouldnt have a need for it and the story would have no plot without it so yeah sharingan = op. plus it can evolve into the rinnengan... case closed

Not fact, it's opinion.

You should be asking how the younger brother was able to stand against older brother when his doujutsu should have been the best. Sharingan is apparently a devolution of Rin'negan and older brother's eyes, so how despite having one of hte most powerful eyes, was he unable to kill his younger brother? And how, despite older brother's descendants having the doujutsu, were unable to kill or wipe out Senju? Another question is, was the Sharingan so rare before Konoha was founded, considering the amount of battles that has occurred in those eras?

The story would have a plot without Sharingan. It did in Part I. And Sasuke or Itachi have a need for it? Wha?

Why not point out how Kumo has tried to get Byakugan or how Ao managed to get a Byakugan eye? If I recall, only people in Konoha has had Sharingan while those outside Konoha had Byakugan or tried to get Byakugan. Or how MS causes blindness unlike Byakugan?



All I see is bias/hatred against Uchiha. Before accusing me of bein biased, I'm not. The only Uchiha I like, I have admitted is "haxxed."

[hyper_megaman]

if you've noticed madara is currently running on infinite chakra/stamina with edo tensei, and compared it with the other two prodigal uchihas (sasuke and itachi), you'll realise that a lot of madara's power probably comes from his edo tensei. it's extremely probably not an accurate representation of his normal combat power from when he was alive.

Alive madara would have had to conserve his chakra, not spam them in one shot. look at how he's using them now, kage bunshin to 25 people, ALL using FULL BODY susanoo? It's obviously unlikely to have been accomplished by him when he was alive.

Use of a partial incomplete susanoo already draws so much chakra it causes pain to the person's entire body, as sasuke pointed out.

hashirama on the other hand was durability king. he probably had more chakra than that. Tsunade's healing jutsu right now, with her "mitotic regeneration technique", merely emulates what her grandfather could heal passively, as madara pointed out. Tsunade took ages to store all that chakra to be used in one shot. her grandfather produced that much chakra naturally that he healed that fast passively, 24/7.

tsunade isn't even a shadow of what hashirama was, as madara pointed out himself.


you can't use edo tensei performance to judge how well people fought. there are practical real-world limitations such as chakra/stamina.

the uchiha are gifted at high spikes of damage, but these skills use up chakra fast. the senju are not as gifted at spiking that much damage, but they had durability of body, and durability of mind. they were pretty gifted at chakra use too.

the uchiha would therefore always benefit more from being resurrected via edo tensei because of the unlimited stamina it gives. the senju, not so much.

except when hashirama was alive, he probably had so much stamina/durability he was practically the equivalent of an edo tensei zombie

We've seen that the Edo summons are still bound by their physical limited and such. Hanzou was paralyzed by his own poison, Muu could no longer use his Dust release after wasting chakra against Onoki and splitting, and the Nidaime Mizukage was shown exhausted after creating Jokey Boi. So it's likely what Madara is showing was what he was originally capable of doing while alive, though possessing Hashirama's Dna probably boosted his natural stamina by a good amount. And apart from the Mokuton usage, Madara's fighting style appears quite alot like Sasuke's, relying on speed and his regular ninjutsu to take out the weak followed by Susanoo with some genjutsu thrown in to help.

nidaime mizukage's jokey boy seems to split his chakra much like kage bunshins do normal people's chakra, much like muu's splitting. if you'll noticve in this case, jokey boy and muu's splits were never destroyed/damaged. they were held in stasis by various skills. if they could end those techniques, i'm betting their chakra/stamina would instantly return to full again.

i'm not saying madara didn't have the chakra to do those skills, i'm saying he would have hesitated to spam them full force in a fight against hashirama.
the only reason he's spamming them now is because of his infinite chakra.


again with a water and container analogy.

let's pretend we have standard 12-cube ice trays filled with water. the tray itself is your chakra/stamina capacity, and the water itself is your chakra at that moment of time. when you use chakra, you empty out the water.

in the case of jokey boy and muu's split, and if itachi used kage bunshin, it's the equivalent of splitting your ice trays. e.g., a 12-cube trya is split into two 6-cube trays.

each tray will be half, even if edo tensei granted infinite water in the trays.

so some skills, say muu's dust element, require 7-cubes of water. muu therefore can't use his dust element skills when his tray is split in half, as he only has 6 cubes per body.

here's where susanoo is different. it's not a one-shot move, so it doesn't draw huge amounts of chakra in one shot, but it constantly drains high amounts as the uchiha user channels it.

so edo tensei still gives them a significant advantage from having infinite water in their trays, as long as each individual body uses skills within their 6-tray limit. They can spam it without any detriment at all, even a move like susanoo that drains 5-cubes per second, for example. someone with two 6-trays would be able to have 2 susanoos active infinitely in edo tensei state


so 25-person susanoo is unlikely something madara would have done in a battle against hashirama, but he probably could have done (maybe kept it up for a minute or so, for example? but definitely not battle-worthy)

Muu's second body was also hit by the Planetary Rasengan along with the main one, and Jokey Boi exploded several times. The point being, half of infinite is still infinite. Heck, that's basically been the situation with the Bijuus.

Being an Edo summon probably has nothing to do with it. Sasuke's not an Edo summon, yet he uses his MS techniques just as much, and Itachi is an Edo summon, but doesn't "spam" them.

Konoha suffered "major casualties" from the Suna/Oto invasion, enough that they had to rely on genins and feared that the other villages would take advantage of their state, thus the rush in gaining a new Hokage as a show of strength. Both situations weakened the village enough. But Konoha knew what the Uchiha's were planning, and at least a few days had past between them knowing and when the Uchiha's would have attempted the coup. So they wouldn't have had to mobilize "overnight" or worry about their forces not being available when the time came.

But the Kyuubi powered Naruto and the the cloaked Naruto are different, and the cloaked Naruto wasn't that faster then Sasuke, it was merely the chakra itself wasn't readable. And I don't recall us being shown that Lee would be unable to do a thing against Neji without weights.

Their father and the rest of the police corp was also considered elite. What fancy abilities didn't Itachi have? He would have had MS by that point. And Itachi would have had seven years of battle experience, including in the Anbu, which is probably more then he would have gotten in Akatsuki given they only recently began to act. Itachi at that age was stronger then most, including a Sannin. So being weaker then Itachi still would have left plenty of room to be stronger then others. Also, Neji was a prodigy because he was able to figure out Kaiten on his own without being taught it.

Obito's issue was confidence, not a lack of strength. Once he got it together, he handled himself fine.

Zabuza and Deidara are normal ninjas in the sense that their techniques aren't Bloodline Limits and they don't have huge chakra pools. Any ninja would be capable of using the Hidden Mist or Clay techniques, thus granting them the same advantages. The Senju knew a multitude of techniques, meaning odds are one would have given then a similar advantage. And I mentioned Ee and Kisame as an example of what people with large chakra pools could be capable of. Naruto would be another example. He's hardly been the est fighter, but he's been able to get around that by relying on costly techniques. A combination of the right techniques and the chakra to waste would make anyone dangerous, regardless of their actual fighting ability.

The Senju can't be a congregation of all the major clans, as the Senju is a specific bloodline linked back to the Rikudou Sennin. The rest of Konoha may have been allies of the clan, but they couldn't have been related to them.

Tobi did mention about the other nations taking advantage of the situation and invading, but by all accounts the Uchiha clan wasn't seeking out any aid but doing it all themselves.

again, i doubt madara could spam these skills like that in his fight with hashirama

he's a zombie now with unlimited stamina, and also after that fight he added hashirama's cells to himself which would have increased his stamina further

there we go, it IS unlimted chakra in edo tensei state

that means the state of sharingan activation/deactivation following izanagi/izanami has something to do with the soul itself


hid my quotes in spoiler tags, click on 'spoiler' to see the quotes

[Rikudou King]

Appears I was wrong about the chakra issue, though I don't see how that pertains to Izanagi and Izanami.