Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

[Uchiha_Blood]

The situation with Lee though was due to his condition, which forced him to go through intense training. More so then anyone else, including Sasuke. That sort of feat isn't something the majority of ninjas would possess. Lacking the Sharingan wouldn't have taken away from their ability to fight, like lacking the Byakugan would do to a Hyuuga, since the Sharingan doesn't physically grant them strength. As we saw with Sasuke, fighting without the Sharingan was fully possible, even against stronger opponents. The average Uchiha being weaker then the elite of the clan would still put them over the majority of ninjas. And I doubt knowing the weaknesses of the Sharingan would have meant much. We've already seen how ineffective that is in the present day. Not to mention, if the regular Uchiha were so low in skills and knowing the weaknesses of the Sharingan was enough, then Konoha wouldn't have had much to fear from the Uchiha clan's attempted coup, especially since the entire Konoha force had to have outnumbered them by quit a bit.

Konoha would have much to fear for many factors:
-They were still recovering from the Kyuubi's attack, most likely, and they were missing a majority of great ninjas like Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru
-Not every ninja is Konoha is Kakashi and Gai level, against a Sharingan user I can only see Hyuugas and Aburames as definite force able to subdue them, since beetle jutsus and Juuken can't be copied nor replicated by the Sharingan
-Uchihas were a majority clan, I do believe Hyuugas too would cause a civil war if they would go to war, since they seem to be deeply rooted in the Konoha teams. Don't forget that Uchihas were the police of the village.

As for Lee, weighted Lee wasn't that fast if you think about it, Neji was hinted to be able to keep up with him even without his weights.
The paragon was made because the difference between Lee and Sasuke in skill would be equal, if greater, with Sasuke and a normal Uchiha. Being an Uchiha doesn't mean you are a prodigy regardless, it would be greatly insulting for both Itachi and Sasuke to think so, and if we consider Obito, those 3 police noobs and Fugaku, you see that they aren't all that in sheer talent and ability.

I really don't see anything to suggest that they became compliant or decided they didn't need training anymore. Everything we've seen implies they were just as feared and respected as they had always been. Double teaming someone still would require even enough skills, else one would hold the other down. And Kakashi didn't seem at all physically affected by the lack of one eye. Anyway, you could look at it that way, but in the reverse also. They couldn't have been that much of fodder if they were still able to rival the Senju clan even though only a portion of the clan actually had the advantage of the Sharingan and such, and they couldn't have gone down that much in strength since the time of Madara if Konoha considered them such a threat that they all had to be eliminated. They may not have been of the level of Itachi or Madara, but they mustn't have been mere average to leave the impressions they did.

This would be correct if Uchihas didn't have a tool, the Sharingan, which gave them a gigantic advantage on their enemy.
The issue is this, how can a good ninja with a tool like the Sharingan be defeated by someone else which only received a boost ( and we don't know how big of a boost ) in chakra capacity, when Senju weren't even remotely famous as the Uzumakis for their life force and longevity?
Naruto required years and years of training to harness the advantages of his enormous chakra pool, and only because Kishi made Kage Bushin cheap as hell. Also, Uchiha weren't slouches in chakra capacity either, if we go by what Tobi said:
they were known for their strong chakras, and Sasuke too proved that he was ahead of the average genins when he used the Goukyaku at 8. Add Izanagi and Izanami to the mix, and either Senjus were all like Tobirama and Tsunade, or the only likely explanation is that they were noobs.
That, or Senju had a peculiar body power that differenciate them from the rest, but I doubt that, since Kishi would've explained it by now if that was the case

[Kid Chameleone]

I dont think you fully understand what im trying to get at. I know wood does burn instantly by normal fire but your forgetting amaterasu... you know the immortal, inextinguishable black flames that are hot as the sun that dont die out for a week... lolz in sasuke and itachis fight the entire forest a caught fire in a seconds. Madara has the most hax genjutsu, the most hax fire techniques, the kyuubi summon and a giant tengu that destroyed a mountain! i know he has infinite chakra right now but still we've seen sasuke pop off amaterasu and susano'o like its nothing and madara was the strongest uchicha ever so its safe to say he couldve done the same alive. Again what i dont understand is how hashirama won when madara is his complete weakness. wood<amaterasu, close combat<EMS + tsukyomi, healing<kyuubi, range attacks<susano'o and you can say its from his rinengan but all his techs we've seen except the wood are his and he had them before he died and gained the power up. I dont see hows its possible that he came out on top when this guy has the ultimate counter to all of his techniques. if i was madara it wouldve been a short fight, susano'o + amaterasu (and maybe the kyuubi for overkill lolz) then BAM! win the fight, cast spell on moon, the end! short story lol. dont make sense and you can say he lost on purpose but again he couldve of killed him and gained all his strength and not just a portion. Unless we see a flashback of hashirama doing some next gen level og gangsta bad ass stuff madara won the fight in my mind because theres no way in hell he shouldve lost oh wait i forgot the will of fire makes you invincible lolz a intangible force that has no meaning except give it your all somehow against all odds helped hashirama win against one of the most op hax character that ive ever seen... come on bro you're telling me that hashirama won? i call bs good sir

[hyper_megaman]

I dont think you fully understand what im trying to get at. I know wood does burn instantly by normal fire but your forgetting amaterasu... you know the immortal, inextinguishable black flames that are hot as the sun that dont die out for a week... lolz in sasuke and itachis fight the entire forest a caught fire in a seconds. Madara has the most hax genjutsu, the most hax fire techniques, the kyuubi summon and a giant tengu that destroyed a mountain! i know he has infinite chakra right now but still we've seen sasuke pop off amaterasu and susano'o like its nothing and madara was the strongest uchicha ever so its safe to say he couldve done the same alive. Again what i dont understand is how hashirama won when madara is his complete weakness. wood<amaterasu, close combat<EMS + tsukyomi, healing<kyuubi, range attacks<susano'o and you can say its from his rinengan but all his techs we've seen except the wood are his and he had them before he died and gained the power up. I dont see hows its possible that he came out on top when this guy has the ultimate counter to all of his techniques. if i was madara it wouldve been a short fight, susano'o + amaterasu (and maybe the kyuubi for overkill lolz) then BAM! win the fight, cast spell on moon, the end! short story lol. dont make sense and you can say he lost on purpose but again he couldve of killed him and gained all his strength and not just a portion. Unless we see a flashback of hashirama doing some next gen level og gangsta bad ass stuff madara won the fight in my mind because theres no way in hell he shouldve lost oh wait i forgot the will of fire makes you invincible lolz a intangible force that has no meaning except give it your all somehow against all odds helped hashirama win against one of the most op hax character that ive ever seen... come on bro you're telling me that hashirama won? i call bs good sir

actually, if it's amaterasu u're talking about, anything would burn, and in this case hashirama has the advantage of growing wood rapidly to shield and redirect the fire

wood<amaterasu, ANYTHING <amaterasu
hashirama = rapidly growing wood which can take the fire and move it elsewhere

madara wears himself out using amaterasu which drains huge amounts of chakra, hashirama blocks with some trees and makes the trees wrap around madara

what?

---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 PM ----------

also there's no evidence amaterasu is part of madara's MS arsenal

everyone has different skills with their MS, itachi and sasuke have similar sets becasuse they're brothers

and even then, they have a key difference: sasuke can't emit amaterasu naturally. he can only shape it. he got his amaterasu emission from itachi's blood blessing

it's pretty likely madara doesn't have it at all. he hasn't used tsukoyomi or amaterasu, just susanoo

[Kid Chameleone]

From here
http://www.mangareader.net/93-395-7/...apter-390.html

to here
http://www.mangareader.net/93-396-5/...apter-391.html

in itachi and sasukes fight couldnt have been more than 2 mins and it set the entire forest on fire. youre teling me that hashirama kept spamming wood to stop it? its inextinguishable! doesnt matter how much would he could bring because madara would just have to cast it once and it would constantly burn all he would have to do is sit back and relax.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-397-2/...apter-392.html

The mangekyo when unlocked gives access to all three super powers and can susano'o can only be used by unlocking both amaterasu and tsukyomi, http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoo, http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sharingan ( go to ms part) every ms user has the ability but each is born with a special ability different from the others. itachi's tsukyomi is next level compared to the rest where he can alter space and time in his own dimension http://www.mangareader.net/93-44811-...apter-478.html, sasuke's gives him control of the amaterasu and allows him to alter its shape and such, kakashi can use the space warp, shisui had mind control and we havent even seen madara's loooool. everyone has a different special ability but each is given the ability to use amaterasu, tsukuyomi and susano'o as they are apart of the uchiha lineage, kakashi cant use them cause he aint uchiha and neither can danzo they can only use the special ability of the eye as we seen.

Madara could use amaterasu burn his wood and as i said he could lay back and kick it because one of two things would happen, either the wood would eventually burn its way to him or he would run out of chakra from constant use of trying to redirect it. no matter which way you look at it hashirama shouldve lost, he has no techniques or abilities that compare to the uchiha's

[Rikudou King]

Konoha would have much to fear for many factors:
-They were still recovering from the Kyuubi's attack, most likely, and they were missing a majority of great ninjas like Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru
-Not every ninja is Konoha is Kakashi and Gai level, against a Sharingan user I can only see Hyuugas and Aburames as definite force able to subdue them, since beetle jutsus and Juuken can't be copied nor replicated by the Sharingan
-Uchihas were a majority clan, I do believe Hyuugas too would cause a civil war if they would go to war, since they seem to be deeply rooted in the Konoha teams. Don't forget that Uchihas were the police of the village.

The Kyuubi incident was seven years before. The recovery should by all accounts have been nearly done. Konoha had mostly recovered from a similar situation of the Oto/Suna invasion after two and a half years had passed. And if they needed ninjas of the Sannin level to manage, since only they and Minato are the only known strong ninjas to have been missing from the village, then that would suggest the Uchiha clan wasn't that much of fodder. They shouldn't have needed to be of high jounin level, since they would have outnumbered them. Konoha has at least a force of 20,000, judging by the Allied Forces. The Uchiha clan couldn't have contained more then a 1,000, which even that number seems too high, and only a percentage of the clan would have had the Sharingan. Konoha had the advantages of numbers, so they shouldn't have had much to worry about, though I will admit that the showing of Konoha's forces hasn't exactly been very impressive. And if the Uchiha clan could gather support for an attempted coup, then that speaks more to the volume of Konoha's leadership.

As for Lee, weighted Lee wasn't that fast if you think about it, Neji was hinted to be able to keep up with him even without his weights.
The paragon was made because the difference between Lee and Sasuke in skill would be equal, if greater, with Sasuke and a normal Uchiha. Being an Uchiha doesn't mean you are a prodigy regardless, it would be greatly insulting for both Itachi and Sasuke to think so, and if we consider Obito, those 3 police noobs and Fugaku, you see that they aren't all that in sheer talent and ability.

I don't recall Neji being implied to be able to keep up, unless you're talking about how he was able to keep up with the Kyuubi powered Naruto.

It isn't about them being prodigies regardless, because not all strong ninjas have to be prodigies. They can easily have been stronger then most of Konoha and still weaker then the top tier. It's like with Kakashi. He's obviously stronger then most of the ninjas in Konoha, but below the likes of Minato and Jiraiya. Him being weaker then the top tier doesn't make him a noob in comparison. We know that their father and those police were considered elite and the top of the clan.

This would be correct if Uchihas didn't have a tool, the Sharingan, which gave them a gigantic advantage on their enemy.
The issue is this, how can a good ninja with a tool like the Sharingan be defeated by someone else which only received a boost ( and we don't know how big of a boost ) in chakra capacity, when Senju weren't even remotely famous as the Uzumakis for their life force and longevity?
Naruto required years and years of training to harness the advantages of his enormous chakra pool, and only because Kishi made Kage Bushin cheap as hell. Also, Uchiha weren't slouches in chakra capacity either, if we go by what Tobi said:
they were known for their strong chakras, and Sasuke too proved that he was ahead of the average genins when he used the Goukyaku at 8. Add Izanagi and Izanami to the mix, and either Senjus were all like Tobirama and Tsunade, or the only likely explanation is that they were noobs.
That, or Senju had a peculiar body power that differenciate them from the rest, but I doubt that, since Kishi would've explained it by now if that was the case

The problem there is that while the Sharingan grants an advantage, it's still requires effort and training in order to actually use that advantage. The ability to predict movement and catching someone in a genjutsu means little if they aren't physically capable of dodging and keeping up.

We've seen regular ninjas like Zabuza and Deidara fully capable of fighting against the Sharingan specifically due to techniques they knew, without the advantage of having huge chakra pools, and we heard from Chiyo that in the past, to fight against a Sharingan user, normally they were fought two against one. Not to mention the sort of power we've seen from chakra powerhouses like Ee and Kisame. Between outnumbering those who would have possessed the Sharingan and likely knowing techniques to give them an edge, there's no reason the Senju couldn't have managed against them. And while Izanagi would have been trouble, it's not exactly a game changer. The cost of it and Izanami would have meant that any Senju still standing would actually have an easier time against that Uchiha.

Also, I believe Tobi's comment about their chakra had to do with the strength of it, not the amount.

[Zancrow]

Maybe the wood that got caught in ameterasu were rolled into a ball form and catapulted back to madara and susano and since its so huge , its hard to miss and even if it tries to slice it , it will still burn cause it made contact

madara may have the hax techniques , but hashirama may have had the best damn haxed brain after the rikudo sage and he could instantly counter whatever madara threw at him

[Kid Chameleone]

rolled into a ball and chucked at him? I hope you aren't serious haha

http://www.mangareader.net/93-395-5/...apter-390.html

http://www.mangareader.net/93-420-10...apter-415.html

you're argument is invalid

[LnDRash]

Probably Hashirama had his own Wood-Mecha (aka Gedo Mazo) to combat Madara's Tengu.

[Zancrow]

Amaterasu never stops burning , not burns everything and turn them into nothing instantaneously , if it did , sasuke wouldnt even exist anymore

http://www.mangareader.net/93-395-8/...apter-390.html

[M3J]

Madara when he fought Hashirama did not have Mokuton or Rin'negan, which is the main reason he's doing so well against the gokage, in my opinion. You're basically speculating too early how Hashirama could have defeated Madara. For all we know, Madara didn't have a complete Susano'o.

Plus, Hashirama was the total package. He had superior healing ability to Tsunade, he had one of the best defense that could put Gaara's to shame, an amazing and versatile offense that'd give Naruto a run for his money, and he could attack short and long range at will. Not only that, but he could change the landscape in ways that the last two tsuchikage couldn't and Naruto could dream of. From the looks of the panel flashbacks, Hashirama could also keep up with Sharingan's ability to predict.

Plus, as we see, the fights never ended in death until their final fight. Even then, Hashirama was pretty bloodied, so it's safe to assume Madara gave him a major challenge. From the looks of it, neither shinobi curbstomped each other.

As for Uchiha vs. Senju, no side was stronger than the other. Senju and the Uchiha still lived, and were considered each other's rivals. Not even the Hyuuga was considered either's rivals. Senju, though, may have had plenty of clans assimilated, boosting the power. From the looks of it, they had Nara, Akimichi, Yamanaka, and Sarutobi clan.

Either way, Uchiha weren't as strong or powerful as people like to make them out to be, especially considering neither side were able to wipe out the other despite many fights.

[hyper_megaman]

From here
http://www.mangareader.net/93-395-7/...apter-390.html

to here
http://www.mangareader.net/93-396-5/...apter-391.html

in itachi and sasukes fight couldnt have been more than 2 mins and it set the entire forest on fire. youre teling me that hashirama kept spamming wood to stop it? its inextinguishable! doesnt matter how much would he could bring because madara would just have to cast it once and it would constantly burn all he would have to do is sit back and relax.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-397-2/...apter-392.html

The mangekyo when unlocked gives access to all three super powers and can susano'o can only be used by unlocking both amaterasu and tsukyomi, http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoo, http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sharingan ( go to ms part) every ms user has the ability but each is born with a special ability different from the others. itachi's tsukyomi is next level compared to the rest where he can alter space and time in his own dimension http://www.mangareader.net/93-44811-...apter-478.html, sasuke's gives him control of the amaterasu and allows him to alter its shape and such, kakashi can use the space warp, shisui had mind control and we havent even seen madara's loooool. everyone has a different special ability but each is given the ability to use amaterasu, tsukuyomi and susano'o as they are apart of the uchiha lineage, kakashi cant use them cause he aint uchiha and neither can danzo they can only use the special ability of the eye as we seen.

Madara could use amaterasu burn his wood and as i said he could lay back and kick it because one of two things would happen, either the wood would eventually burn its way to him or he would run out of chakra from constant use of trying to redirect it. no matter which way you look at it hashirama shouldve lost, he has no techniques or abilities that compare to the uchiha's

i don't see it anywhere stating susanoo must come from amaterasu and tsukuyomi

itachi just said it Awoke ALONGSIDE the other two skills when he got his MS

but each is given the ability to use amaterasu, tsukuyomi and susano'o as they are apart of the uchiha lineage

lol what. you're just making things up again.


also, that's the problem, hashirama had heaps of chakra he was considered a legend. he was also gifted in chakra use and pretty combat smart, so he was efficient at it unlike naruto's chakra spammage that sees him running out of chakra all the time (kage bunshin to divide it by 2). he probably had a hard time running out of it.

he has so much chakra he HEALED himself naturally equivalent to the rate at which a medic ninja healed others with healing skills.

hashirama was a durability king. he had too much chakra.

[marshall313]

Maybe hashirama knows the akamichi clan's technique. Imagine, Giant hashirama will going to create a forest in that form. What a sight. That's probably only hashirama can stop madara.

[hyper_megaman]

if you've noticed madara is currently running on infinite chakra/stamina with edo tensei, and compared it with the other two prodigal uchihas (sasuke and itachi), you'll realise that a lot of madara's power probably comes from his edo tensei. it's extremely probably not an accurate representation of his normal combat power from when he was alive.

Alive madara would have had to conserve his chakra, not spam them in one shot. look at how he's using them now, kage bunshin to 25 people, ALL using FULL BODY susanoo? It's obviously unlikely to have been accomplished by him when he was alive.

Use of a partial incomplete susanoo already draws so much chakra it causes pain to the person's entire body, as sasuke pointed out.

hashirama on the other hand was durability king. he probably had more chakra than that. Tsunade's healing jutsu right now, with her "mitotic regeneration technique", merely emulates what her grandfather could heal passively, as madara pointed out. Tsunade took ages to store all that chakra to be used in one shot. her grandfather produced that much chakra naturally that he healed that fast passively, 24/7.

tsunade isn't even a shadow of what hashirama was, as madara pointed out himself.


you can't use edo tensei performance to judge how well people fought. there are practical real-world limitations such as chakra/stamina.

the uchiha are gifted at high spikes of damage, but these skills use up chakra fast. the senju are not as gifted at spiking that much damage, but they had durability of body, and durability of mind. they were pretty gifted at chakra use too.

the uchiha would therefore always benefit more from being resurrected via edo tensei because of the unlimited stamina it gives. the senju, not so much.

except when hashirama was alive, he probably had so much stamina/durability he was practically the equivalent of an edo tensei zombie

---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

Analogy: imagine fighting wolverine.

who cares if u have a minigun with 1000 rounds? who cares if he only has a pistol?

he's gonna keep coming and coming until u run out of ur 1000 rounds, and then you're screwed

[Rikudou King]

We've seen that the Edo summons are still bound by their physical limited and such. Hanzou was paralyzed by his own poison, Muu could no longer use his Dust release after wasting chakra against Onoki and splitting, and the Nidaime Mizukage was shown exhausted after creating Jokey Boi. So it's likely what Madara is showing was what he was originally capable of doing while alive, though possessing Hashirama's Dna probably boosted his natural stamina by a good amount. And apart from the Mokuton usage, Madara's fighting style appears quite alot like Sasuke's, relying on speed and his regular ninjutsu to take out the weak followed by Susanoo with some genjutsu thrown in to help.

[hyper_megaman]

We've seen that the Edo summons are still bound by their physical limited and such. Hanzou was paralyzed by his own poison, Muu could no longer use his Dust release after wasting chakra against Onoki and splitting, and the Nidaime Mizukage was shown exhausted after creating Jokey Boi. So it's likely what Madara is showing was what he was originally capable of doing while alive, though possessing Hashirama's Dna probably boosted his natural stamina by a good amount. And apart from the Mokuton usage, Madara's fighting style appears quite alot like Sasuke's, relying on speed and his regular ninjutsu to take out the weak followed by Susanoo with some genjutsu thrown in to help.

nidaime mizukage's jokey boy seems to split his chakra much like kage bunshins do normal people's chakra, much like muu's splitting. if you'll noticve in this case, jokey boy and muu's splits were never destroyed/damaged. they were held in stasis by various skills. if they could end those techniques, i'm betting their chakra/stamina would instantly return to full again.

i'm not saying madara didn't have the chakra to do those skills, i'm saying he would have hesitated to spam them full force in a fight against hashirama.
the only reason he's spamming them now is because of his infinite chakra.


again with a water and container analogy.

let's pretend we have standard 12-cube ice trays filled with water. the tray itself is your chakra/stamina capacity, and the water itself is your chakra at that moment of time. when you use chakra, you empty out the water.

in the case of jokey boy and muu's split, and if itachi used kage bunshin, it's the equivalent of splitting your ice trays. e.g., a 12-cube trya is split into two 6-cube trays.

each tray will be half, even if edo tensei granted infinite water in the trays.

so some skills, say muu's dust element, require 7-cubes of water. muu therefore can't use his dust element skills when his tray is split in half, as he only has 6 cubes per body.

here's where susanoo is different. it's not a one-shot move, so it doesn't draw huge amounts of chakra in one shot, but it constantly drains high amounts as the uchiha user channels it.

so edo tensei still gives them a significant advantage from having infinite water in their trays, as long as each individual body uses skills within their 6-tray limit. They can spam it without any detriment at all, even a move like susanoo that drains 5-cubes per second, for example. someone with two 6-trays would be able to have 2 susanoos active infinitely in edo tensei state


so 25-person susanoo is unlikely something madara would have done in a battle against hashirama, but he probably could have done (maybe kept it up for a minute or so, for example? but definitely not battle-worthy)