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Thread: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

  1. #31
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The Kyuubi incident was seven years before. The recovery should by all accounts have been nearly done. Konoha had mostly recovered from a similar situation of the Oto/Suna invasion after two and a half years had passed. And if they needed ninjas of the Sannin level to manage, since only they and Minato are the only known strong ninjas to have been missing from the village, then that would suggest the Uchiha clan wasn't that much of fodder. They shouldn't have needed to be of high jounin level, since they would have outnumbered them. Konoha has at least a force of 20,000, judging by the Allied Forces. The Uchiha clan couldn't have contained more then a 1,000, which even that number seems too high, and only a percentage of the clan would have had the Sharingan. Konoha had the advantages of numbers, so they shouldn't have had much to worry about, though I will admit that the showing of Konoha's forces hasn't exactly been very impressive. And if the Uchiha clan could gather support for an attempted coup, then that speaks more to the volume of Konoha's leadership.
    We don't know how many ninja they lost back in the Kyuubi attack, the Suna/Oto invasion's only major kill was Hiruzen, the invasion forces were so weak that single ninjas ( Hiashi, Asuma, Shukaku ) took, like, 10 each with no problem.
    Kyuubi on the countrary killed ninjas left and right.
    Also what you said would be true in an open warfare, an attack from inside would provoke great damage before anyone would be even alerted. An army doesn't mobilize overnight, and the Hokage can't coordinate his ninjas if they are cut out.
    Quote Quote:

    I don't recall Neji being implied to be able to keep up, unless you're talking about how he was able to keep up with the Kyuubi powered Naruto.

    It isn't about them being prodigies regardless, because not all strong ninjas have to be prodigies. They can easily have been stronger then most of Konoha and still weaker then the top tier. It's like with Kakashi. He's obviously stronger then most of the ninjas in Konoha, but below the likes of Minato and Jiraiya. Him being weaker then the top tier doesn't make him a noob in comparison. We know that their father and those police were considered elite and the top of the clan.
    That ( Naruto with the Kyuubi shroud was way faster than Sasuke which was equal to Lee, despite the Sharingan ), and Lee himself being unable to do a thing to Neji even without weights ( also remember when Lee lost his weights? Neji was impassible ).
    That and Lee requiring 5 Gates to overwhelm Neji, proving that even the Omote Renge was ineffective.

    Kakashi is an elite regardless, when I say noob or fodder I mean ninjas like Iruka, for example.
    I call them fodder because Itachi, at 13 ( so without all his fancy ablities, without 8 years of fighting and missions in Akatsuki ) was the strongest of the clan. I don't doubt that Itachi at 13 was stronger than most, but it still remains this fact.
    As an example, Neji was said to be a prodigy beyond any other in the Hyuuga clan, yet we saw in the invasion that Hiashi was ten times stronger, compare the size of the Kaitens

    Quote Quote:
    The problem there is that while the Sharingan grants an advantage, it's still requires effort and training in order to actually use that advantage. The ability to predict movement and catching someone in a genjutsu means little if they aren't physically capable of dodging and keeping up.

    We've seen regular ninjas like Zabuza and Deidara fully capable of fighting against the Sharingan specifically due to techniques they knew, without the advantage of having huge chakra pools, and we heard from Chiyo that in the past, to fight against a Sharingan user, normally they were fought two against one. Not to mention the sort of power we've seen from chakra powerhouses like Ee and Kisame. Between outnumbering those who would have possessed the Sharingan and likely knowing techniques to give them an edge, there's no reason the Senju couldn't have managed against them. And while Izanagi would have been trouble, it's not exactly a game changer. The cost of it and Izanami would have meant that any Senju still standing would actually have an easier time against that Uchiha.

    Also, I believe Tobi's comment about their chakra had to do with the strength of it, not the amount.
    Tobi was stronger than that Iwa Jounin?
    No, he was weaker, yet the Sharingan let him kill him.

    Also Deidara and Zabuza are not normal ninjas, heck Deidara was an S rank ninja that trained for years his eye to counter only the genjutsu ability, and Zabuza had an ultra convenient ability plus Haku's insight.
    Same with A and Bee, they are the elite of the elite, I doubt that Senjus were all S rank ninjas, it would also make no sense why they are reduced only to Tsunade today. That, or maybe the Senju were all the major clans in Konoha congregated ( the ones with an Hijutsu, like Naras ), in which case it would make sense

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    The OP says that beyond the battle prowess of but a handful of shinobi, neither clan has proven their weight in gold. This is true, however the Uchiha of Itachi's era were a far cry from those of yesteryear; having grown accustomed to their comfortable lifestyle, afforded to them on the merit the of past deeds and for other more obvious reasons. The establishment of Konoha's ninja academy, with 'the will of fire' at the heart of its teachings, was another damaging blow to the Uchiha in that it allowed other clans to at least be level in basic techniques and benefit from shared knowledge and experiences. The Senju on the other hand, seem to have been completely assimilated into Konohagakure, and therefore no longer exist in a form that we can use for comparison.

    Now without drawing reference to who has the greater arsenal of god-tier jutsu. It's clear that Hashirama and Madara are like yin and yang, and the 'will of fire' was most likely the only thing that really separated them. I'd even go as far as to say that Madara was probably the stronger of the two, but fell short in understanding where a shinobi's true strength comes from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    ... if the regular Uchiha were so low in skills and knowing the weaknesses of the Sharingan was enough, then Konoha wouldn't have had much to fear from the Uchiha clan's attempted coup, especially since the entire Konoha force had to have outnumbered them by quit a bit.
    Konoha was probably more worried about other villages taking advantage of a civil war. As we've seen with Danzo, there's no reason to think that the Uchiha would have tried to take the village alone.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Maybe hashirama knows the akamichi clan's technique. Imagine, Giant hashirama will going to create a forest in that form. What a sight. That's probably only hashirama can stop madara.
    no. Increase in size would be invalid to Madara.
    You really think growing in size would make a difference in a fight where Mangekyo Sharingan, Wood Release, Instant Healing and Tailed Beats are concerned??
    Its not even an argument.

    ---------- Post added at 09:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Konoha was probably more worried about other villages taking advantage of a civil war. As we've seen with Danzo, there's no reason to think that the Uchiha would have tried to take the village alone.
    Perfectly said. A damaged village in the Naruto world apparently means ''new land available for take-over '' to any strong village.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by hyper_megaman View Post
    nidaime mizukage's jokey boy seems to split his chakra much like kage bunshins do normal people's chakra, much like muu's splitting. if you'll noticve in this case, jokey boy and muu's splits were never destroyed/damaged. they were held in stasis by various skills. if they could end those techniques, i'm betting their chakra/stamina would instantly return to full again.

    i'm not saying madara didn't have the chakra to do those skills, i'm saying he would have hesitated to spam them full force in a fight against hashirama.
    the only reason he's spamming them now is because of his infinite chakra.
    Muu's second body was also hit by the Planetary Rasengan along with the main one, and Jokey Boi exploded several times. The point being, half of infinite is still infinite. Heck, that's basically been the situation with the Bijuus.

    Being an Edo summon probably has nothing to do with it. Sasuke's not an Edo summon, yet he uses his MS techniques just as much, and Itachi is an Edo summon, but doesn't "spam" them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    We don't know how many ninja they lost back in the Kyuubi attack, the Suna/Oto invasion's only major kill was Hiruzen, the invasion forces were so weak that single ninjas ( Hiashi, Asuma, Shukaku ) took, like, 10 each with no problem.
    Kyuubi on the countrary killed ninjas left and right.
    Also what you said would be true in an open warfare, an attack from inside would provoke great damage before anyone would be even alerted. An army doesn't mobilize overnight, and the Hokage can't coordinate his ninjas if they are cut out.
    Konoha suffered "major casualties" from the Suna/Oto invasion, enough that they had to rely on genins and feared that the other villages would take advantage of their state, thus the rush in gaining a new Hokage as a show of strength. Both situations weakened the village enough. But Konoha knew what the Uchiha's were planning, and at least a few days had past between them knowing and when the Uchiha's would have attempted the coup. So they wouldn't have had to mobilize "overnight" or worry about their forces not being available when the time came.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    That ( Naruto with the Kyuubi shroud was way faster than Sasuke which was equal to Lee, despite the Sharingan ), and Lee himself being unable to do a thing to Neji even without weights ( also remember when Lee lost his weights? Neji was impassible ).
    That and Lee requiring 5 Gates to overwhelm Neji, proving that even the Omote Renge was ineffective.

    Kakashi is an elite regardless, when I say noob or fodder I mean ninjas like Iruka, for example.
    I call them fodder because Itachi, at 13 ( so without all his fancy ablities, without 8 years of fighting and missions in Akatsuki ) was the strongest of the clan. I don't doubt that Itachi at 13 was stronger than most, but it still remains this fact.
    As an example, Neji was said to be a prodigy beyond any other in the Hyuuga clan, yet we saw in the invasion that Hiashi was ten times stronger, compare the size of the Kaitens
    But the Kyuubi powered Naruto and the the cloaked Naruto are different, and the cloaked Naruto wasn't that faster then Sasuke, it was merely the chakra itself wasn't readable. And I don't recall us being shown that Lee would be unable to do a thing against Neji without weights.

    Their father and the rest of the police corp was also considered elite. What fancy abilities didn't Itachi have? He would have had MS by that point. And Itachi would have had seven years of battle experience, including in the Anbu, which is probably more then he would have gotten in Akatsuki given they only recently began to act. Itachi at that age was stronger then most, including a Sannin. So being weaker then Itachi still would have left plenty of room to be stronger then others. Also, Neji was a prodigy because he was able to figure out Kaiten on his own without being taught it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Tobi was stronger than that Iwa Jounin?
    No, he was weaker, yet the Sharingan let him kill him.

    Also Deidara and Zabuza are not normal ninjas, heck Deidara was an S rank ninja that trained for years his eye to counter only the genjutsu ability, and Zabuza had an ultra convenient ability plus Haku's insight.
    Same with A and Bee, they are the elite of the elite, I doubt that Senjus were all S rank ninjas, it would also make no sense why they are reduced only to Tsunade today. That, or maybe the Senju were all the major clans in Konoha congregated ( the ones with an Hijutsu, like Naras ), in which case it would make sense
    Obito's issue was confidence, not a lack of strength. Once he got it together, he handled himself fine.

    Zabuza and Deidara are normal ninjas in the sense that their techniques aren't Bloodline Limits and they don't have huge chakra pools. Any ninja would be capable of using the Hidden Mist or Clay techniques, thus granting them the same advantages. The Senju knew a multitude of techniques, meaning odds are one would have given then a similar advantage. And I mentioned Ee and Kisame as an example of what people with large chakra pools could be capable of. Naruto would be another example. He's hardly been the est fighter, but he's been able to get around that by relying on costly techniques. A combination of the right techniques and the chakra to waste would make anyone dangerous, regardless of their actual fighting ability.

    The Senju can't be a congregation of all the major clans, as the Senju is a specific bloodline linked back to the Rikudou Sennin. The rest of Konoha may have been allies of the clan, but they couldn't have been related to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Konoha was probably more worried about other villages taking advantage of a civil war. As we've seen with Danzo, there's no reason to think that the Uchiha would have tried to take the village alone.
    Tobi did mention about the other nations taking advantage of the situation and invading, but by all accounts the Uchiha clan wasn't seeking out any aid but doing it all themselves.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Konoha suffered "major casualties" from the Suna/Oto invasion, enough that they had to rely on genins and feared that the other villages would take advantage of their state, thus the rush in gaining a new Hokage as a show of strength. Both situations weakened the village enough. But Konoha knew what the Uchiha's were planning, and at least a few days had past between them knowing and when the Uchiha's would have attempted the coup. So they wouldn't have had to mobilize "overnight" or worry about their forces not being available when the time came.
    Still, would they be able to mobilize great forces without alerting Uchihas that something was off?
    Or could the ANBU be in all the places every Uchiha would be? I agree that the main threat was the clan as a whole, but the fact that it would be a civil war, inside Konoha's walls, would be greatly advantageous for them.
    Also I don't expect to convince, in a day, all the clans in Konoha that Uchihas were traitors to be easy

    Quote Quote:
    But the Kyuubi powered Naruto and the the cloaked Naruto are different, and the cloaked Naruto wasn't that faster then Sasuke, it was merely the chakra itself wasn't readable. And I don't recall us being shown that Lee would be unable to do a thing against Neji without weights.

    Their father and the rest of the police corp was also considered elite. What fancy abilities didn't Itachi have? He would have had MS by that point. And Itachi would have had seven years of battle experience, including in the Anbu, which is probably more then he would have gotten in Akatsuki given they only recently began to act. Itachi at that age was stronger then most, including a Sannin. So being weaker then Itachi still would have left plenty of room to be stronger then others. Also, Neji was a prodigy because he was able to figure out Kaiten on his own without being taught it.
    I was talking about Naruto when he was solely under Kyuubi's influence, before Sasuke awakened the third tomoe, that was a stage similar to the one Neji faced.
    Also it wasn't showed, but it was implied since Lee spoke time and time again how he couldn't stand a chance against Neji. And that without kaiten nor that 64 heavenly strikes, since he was training in secret with them.
    As for his status as prodigy, it wasn't because he taught himself Kaiten and the 64 strikes, but also because his Byakugan could see, at 13, tenketsus, which was implied to be ultra rare, if not unique.

    I doubt Itachi was as strong, as fast, as skilled at 13 like he was at 19 when he was showed for the first time, Sasuke remarked that Itachi was superior to Fugaku regardless of his MS, or any forbidden jutsu like Izanami.
    Again I agree that Itachi always was an odd case, but hell, its harsh when a 13 years old makes the rest of the clan look like shit.

    Quote Quote:
    Obito's issue was confidence, not a lack of strength. Once he got it together, he handled himself fine.

    Zabuza and Deidara are normal ninjas in the sense that their techniques aren't Bloodline Limits and they don't have huge chakra pools. Any ninja would be capable of using the Hidden Mist or Clay techniques, thus granting them the same advantages. The Senju knew a multitude of techniques, meaning odds are one would have given then a similar advantage. And I mentioned Ee and Kisame as an example of what people with large chakra pools could be capable of. Naruto would be another example. He's hardly been the est fighter, but he's been able to get around that by relying on costly techniques. A combination of the right techniques and the chakra to waste would make anyone dangerous, regardless of their actual fighting ability.

    The Senju can't be a congregation of all the major clans, as the Senju is a specific bloodline linked back to the Rikudou Sennin. The rest of Konoha may have been allies of the clan, but they couldn't have been related to them.
    You totally read my mind, I wrote Tobi instead of Obito lol

    What you are saying is true regardless, not only for the Senjus but also for Uchihas.
    Many of the jutsus that Senju would use, Uchihas would simply copy, also don't forget that Zabuza's Kirigakure no jutsu is so lethal because he is the master of silent killing, can move without a sound and can move smoothly without seeing, to date only him is capable of something like that, hell he is the equivalent of a sensor.

    I doubt all Senjus were born with whatever abilities Senju shared, and them being a founding clan, and the one of the 100 jutsus it would make sense for some of them to use some of those Hijutsu and found their own clan.
    It would explain why every clan in Konoha bar the uchihas seems so willing to be Senju's lapdogs, despite the less than optimal leadership in Konoha regardless of the Hokage ( the only Hokage that didn't screw up was Yondaime, and only because he was Hokage for a short time, give him some years and he would've screwed up too )

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Whoever started this thread I guess will be pretty stubborn sticking with Madara. But i can tell you that only a flashback can solve this question. Basing with the canon manga will be insufficient as of now. We have seen most of Madara's abilities which are really imba strong. But he wouldn't say that "Only Hashrima can Stop me" for no reason. The quality of Hashrima's techniques, they way he used them, all the intangibles that he had during that epic battle against Madara is incomparable to how the 5 kages moved and used their techniques.

    When the Hashirama and Tobirama were summoned by Oro against Third, they were just emotioneless puppets and can never fully resemble them 100%. And to think that third is called as "God of the Shinobi", that would've meant something. The little thing we know of Hashirama's abilities is probably not enough that he could win againts Madara but he is who he is and for that Madara respects him and he was able to defeat him in a fair and square long and tiring battle. Who knew what Hashrima did but what we know of right now is that he used techniques and abilities in their best potential that defeated Madara.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Still, would they be able to mobilize great forces without alerting Uchihas that something was off?
    Or could the ANBU be in all the places every Uchiha would be? I agree that the main threat was the clan as a whole, but the fact that it would be a civil war, inside Konoha's walls, would be greatly advantageous for them.
    Also I don't expect to convince, in a day, all the clans in Konoha that Uchihas were traitors to be easy
    Surely the Anbu would, especially if done at night. After all, if they're capable of getting into foreign villages to conduct their assassinations, getting into the Uchiha complex shouldn't have been much issue. They obviously knew where all the Uchiha's were, if Itachi was able to eliminate them all. And I don't see how that would be an issue of revealing them traitors. Unless the rest of Konoha believed them capable of killing an innocent clan, then they would assume eliminating the Uchiha clan had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I was talking about Naruto when he was solely under Kyuubi's influence, before Sasuke awakened the third tomoe, that was a stage similar to the one Neji faced.
    Also it wasn't showed, but it was implied since Lee spoke time and time again how he couldn't stand a chance against Neji. And that without kaiten nor that 64 heavenly strikes, since he was training in secret with them.
    As for his status as prodigy, it wasn't because he taught himself Kaiten and the 64 strikes, but also because his Byakugan could see, at 13, tenketsus, which was implied to be ultra rare, if not unique.

    I doubt Itachi was as strong, as fast, as skilled at 13 like he was at 19 when he was showed for the first time, Sasuke remarked that Itachi was superior to Fugaku regardless of his MS, or any forbidden jutsu like Izanami.
    Again I agree that Itachi always was an odd case, but hell, its harsh when a 13 years old makes the rest of the clan look like shit.
    At that point, Sasuke didn't have trouble with his speed, but with his power. The only speed issue was when Sasuke was confused underwater. Lee considering Neji his rival isn't exact proof of anything. And the point was that his title of prodigy had nothing to do with raw power.

    Why not? Logically he had already reached his peak then, thus why he was praised and such. And shit is a little strong. All we know is that Itachi was stronger. But there was nothing suggesting the rest of the strong members were that far below him. Even Sasuke stated that as good as Itachi was, he couldn't have taken the entire police force out on his own, so the difference couldn't have been that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    You totally read my mind, I wrote Tobi instead of Obito lol

    What you are saying is true regardless, not only for the Senjus but also for Uchihas.
    Many of the jutsus that Senju would use, Uchihas would simply copy, also don't forget that Zabuza's Kirigakure no jutsu is so lethal because he is the master of silent killing, can move without a sound and can move smoothly without seeing, to date only him is capable of something like that, hell he is the equivalent of a sensor.

    I doubt all Senjus were born with whatever abilities Senju shared, and them being a founding clan, and the one of the 100 jutsus it would make sense for some of them to use some of those Hijutsu and found their own clan.
    It would explain why every clan in Konoha bar the uchihas seems so willing to be Senju's lapdogs, despite the less than optimal leadership in Konoha regardless of the Hokage ( the only Hokage that didn't screw up was Yondaime, and only because he was Hokage for a short time, give him some years and he would've screwed up too )
    The Uchiha would only be capable of copying it if they had the right nature, and even then, we've seen regular Uchiha's tended to rely more on their own techniques then just going around copying things. And one wouldn't have to be a master of silent killing as long as they had good senses. Kakashi managed with his sense of smell and the mist didn't slow down Ee and Onoki. Not to mention a good AOE technique. The point remains, that there are regular means available to get around the advantage of the Sharingan.

    Whether they were born with special abilities or not, they still would have had to be related to each other, otherwise their relationship to the Uchiha, not to mention Uzumaki clan, wouldn't make sense. They wouldn't have been able to inherit anything from the Rikudou Sennin and past it down. Not to mention that we were told that several of the clans in Konoha had been under the Uchiha command before the village was created.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    It's just like in any RPG game fighting with a boss monster. Bosses are very strong but if you have enough health and mana pots, you'll be able to defeat it.
    Hashirama have very high amount of chakra and healing ability. So even if Madara had stronger jutsus, he would still run out of chakra and his body will weaken from the damages he receives from Hashirama no matter how little they are. Hashirama on the other hand doesn't run out of chakra that easily and the damages he gets heal rapidly.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Surely the Anbu would, especially if done at night. After all, if they're capable of getting into foreign villages to conduct their assassinations, getting into the Uchiha complex shouldn't have been much issue. They obviously knew where all the Uchiha's were, if Itachi was able to eliminate them all. And I don't see how that would be an issue of revealing them traitors. Unless the rest of Konoha believed them capable of killing an innocent clan, then they would assume eliminating the Uchiha clan had to happen.
    ANBU are few in number, the greatest spread of them was, like, 12.
    12 of them can't surveil a clan, expecially if said clan has a fancy eye that can see chakra.
    As for the other clans, how would they be convinced? By word of the elders? What proof did they had? Itachi's mission was a top-secret one

    Quote Quote:
    At that point, Sasuke didn't have trouble with his speed, but with his power. The only speed issue was when Sasuke was confused underwater. Lee considering Neji his rival isn't exact proof of anything. And the point was that his title of prodigy had nothing to do with raw power.

    Why not? Logically he had already reached his peak then, thus why he was praised and such. And shit is a little strong. All we know is that Itachi was stronger. But there was nothing suggesting the rest of the strong members were that far below him. Even Sasuke stated that as good as Itachi was, he couldn't have taken the entire police force out on his own, so the difference couldn't have been that much.
    How Kyuubi's chakra gives an advantage underwater?
    Naruto was too fast for Sasuke, and it probably helped Sasuke achieve the third tomoe, like it did against Haku.

    As for Neji, if he could beat Lee time and time again without a defence like Kaiten or any ranged jutsu, it would've meant that they had comparable speed, hell if Neji was slower how could he touch Lee?

    Quote Quote:
    The Uchiha would only be capable of copying it if they had the right nature, and even then, we've seen regular Uchiha's tended to rely more on their own techniques then just going around copying things. And one wouldn't have to be a master of silent killing as long as they had good senses. Kakashi managed with his sense of smell and the mist didn't slow down Ee and Onoki. Not to mention a good AOE technique. The point remains, that there are regular means available to get around the advantage of the Sharingan.

    Whether they were born with special abilities or not, they still would have had to be related to each other, otherwise their relationship to the Uchiha, not to mention Uzumaki clan, wouldn't make sense. They wouldn't have been able to inherit anything from the Rikudou Sennin and past it down. Not to mention that we were told that several of the clans in Konoha had been under the Uchiha command before the village was created.
    Kakashi had the dogs, not his own sense of smell, and the trick succeded only because Kakashi's blood was on Zabuza's weapon.
    Also, we only mentioned elite Jounins ( Kakashi, Zabuza ) or Kage level nin.
    How many of those ninjas the Senjus would have? And of these, how many would specialize in anti-visual abilities? How many characters are shown to be as fast as A, or as strong as Oonoki?
    There is nothing regular about them

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    ANBU are few in number, the greatest spread of them was, like, 12.
    12 of them can't surveil a clan, expecially if said clan has a fancy eye that can see chakra.
    As for the other clans, how would they be convinced? By word of the elders? What proof did they had? Itachi's mission was a top-secret one
    Twelve of the strongest ninjas in the village, who's specialty is assassination and high level missions. I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to do it, especially if done at nighttime. Why wouldn't they be convinced by the words of the Hokage? Again, unless they believed that their leadership is the type to just randomly kill their own ninjas, the rest of Konoha wouldn't have any reason not to assume what they were told was true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    How Kyuubi's chakra gives an advantage underwater?
    Naruto was too fast for Sasuke, and it probably helped Sasuke achieve the third tomoe, like it did against Haku.

    As for Neji, if he could beat Lee time and time again without a defence like Kaiten or any ranged jutsu, it would've meant that they had comparable speed, hell if Neji was slower how could he touch Lee?
    Sasuke had been knocked underwater and was confused. That's not a position where one would easy be able to react. But his previous action of blocking Naruto, and the fact that the Sharingan doesn't physically enhance speed shows that Naruto wasn't too fast, at least on even ground. But as far as we know, Lee and Neji have never actually fought. Beating neji was merely his goal, just like beating Sasuke had been Naruto's goal at that time too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Kakashi had the dogs, not his own sense of smell, and the trick succeded only because Kakashi's blood was on Zabuza's weapon.
    Also, we only mentioned elite Jounins ( Kakashi, Zabuza ) or Kage level nin.
    How many of those ninjas the Senjus would have? And of these, how many would specialize in anti-visual abilities? How many characters are shown to be as fast as A, or as strong as Oonoki?
    There is nothing regular about them
    My mistake, tough Kakashi's sense of smell was still said to be better. The thing is, elite ninjas aren't the only ones who would have enhanced smell, or be capable of using the techniques mentioned, or spamming chakra. Just because we only have elite ninjas to use as an example doesn't mean it's limited to them. There would have probably been more then the handful of Sharingan user's the Uchiha clan had, and since they had been rivals for several generations, having anti-visual tactics would have made prefect sense. We already know of at least one tactic that was used against them, the two against one Chiyo told us about.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Well, I would argue that the sheer scale of hashirama's attacks made it possible. Madara fought hashirama with only his MS though so he was not quite as strong back them to say the least. Now, even with this ultimate susanoo odds are that the sheer scale of hashirama's attacks was enough to make a difference. So we have an ultimate susanoo against constantly growing plants, polems, perhaps even plant related poison, and immortality. I think it makes sense hashirama would have been able to fight this guy although it is possible he had even more going for him (who knows, maybe immortality is overrated).

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, I would argue that the sheer scale of hashirama's attacks made it possible. Madara fought hashirama with only his MS though so he was not quite as strong back them to say the least. Now, even with this ultimate susanoo odds are that the sheer scale of hashirama's attacks was enough to make a difference. So we have an ultimate susanoo against constantly growing plants, polems, perhaps even plant related poison, and immortality. I think it makes sense hashirama would have been able to fight this guy although it is possible he had even more going for him (who knows, maybe immortality is overrated).

    There's no way Hashirama is " immortal " (or can heal his wounds non stop), there has to be some limits to his regeneration powers. Also, I doubt his Mokuton would be enough to defeat Madara's complete Susanoo, Hashirama must had something else to beat Madara, Mokuto doesn't seem " destructive " to pierce it.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    There's no way Hashirama is " immortal " (or can heal his wounds non stop), there has to be some limits to his regeneration powers. Also, I doubt his Mokuton would be enough to defeat Madara's complete Susanoo, Hashirama must had something else to beat Madara, Mokuto doesn't seem " destructive " to pierce it.
    Well, we know for a fact that hashirama could heal pretty much in the same way tsunade can do it. Heck, madara refers to tsunade using the same technique hashirama had. We also know he had a reasonably strong chakra, enough to create gargantuan forests way larger than the kyubi itself considering the double spread from when tobi told sasuke about the past. I think he could heal pretty much in the same way tsunade did but for longer amounts of time. He does not necessarily have to do destructive stuff either, plants can do a number of things as far as we know and have seen.

    ---------- Post added at 04:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

    Another thing about the chapter is that madara explicitely says the susanoo is about as powerful as a biju. One of those things which hashirama reportedly could fight.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, we know for a fact that hashirama could heal pretty much in the same way tsunade can do it. Heck, madara refers to tsunade using the same technique hashirama had. We also know he had a reasonably strong chakra, enough to create gargantuan forests way larger than the kyubi itself considering the double spread from when tobi told sasuke about the past. I think he could heal pretty much in the same way tsunade did but for longer amounts of time. He does not necessarily have to do destructive stuff either, plants can do a number of things as far as we know and have seen.

    ---------- Post added at 04:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

    Another thing about the chapter is that madara explicitely says the susanoo is about as powerful as a biju. One of those things which hashirama reportedly could fight.
    actually i think madara pointed out hashirama could do what tsunade did without any handseals

    tsunade's mitotic regeneration required handseals and special activation.

    hashirama, if he used no seals at all, would mean he's healing passively and naturally (like naruto did when he was fighting sasuke at the valley of the end) from pure chakra overload

    hashirama could have had chakra levels rivalling that of a bijuu (we already have kisame and the raikage with these, so it's very possible hashirama had something equivalent or higher when he was alive)

    ---------- Post added at 03:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    There's no way Hashirama is " immortal " (or can heal his wounds non stop), there has to be some limits to his regeneration powers. Also, I doubt his Mokuton would be enough to defeat Madara's complete Susanoo, Hashirama must had something else to beat Madara, Mokuto doesn't seem " destructive " to pierce it.
    and madara would likely run out of chakra within minutes if he spammed susanoo so readily

    i doubt he was in susanoo the entire fight, or a huge majority of it

    it would be the worst decision ever in a fight, to splurge ur chakra in one such moment against an immortal equivalent like hashirama, who would survive it and then proceed to rape you.

    madara was way more than just his MS. he was a great ninja and i don't think he would have used susanoo until the very end as a last ditch effort

    ---------- Post added at 03:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 AM ----------

    http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/577/2

    here we go

    Tsunade stated she invented the technique

    Madara confirmed he's never heard of it or seen it

    this means Hashirama could do what Tsunade's mitotic regeneration could do WITHOUT the technique

    remember the scene where naruto's lung was pierced by sasuke and he healed it in seconds? I think hashirama was somehting like that

    i want to see an official flashback!

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Both Madara and Hashirama appear as if they have had a high chakra capacity, with Hashirama likely being comparable to the likes of Ee and Kisame. I doubt they wouldn't have been capable of using many costly techniques in a single battle, especially when we've seen Sasuke with his average chakra do just that.

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