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Thread: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

  1. #136
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Appears I was wrong about the chakra issue, though I don't see how that pertains to Izanagi and Izanami.
    how could you not, it's an axiomatic deduction by way of logical elimination

    a body with infinite durability (always restored to peak) and infinite stamina

    the first thing i looked out for was whether izanagi/izanami's sharingan-destroying effects would work on an edo tensei zombie. it did.

    then your theory came into play. the edo tensei body was finite, the resurrection was equivalent to just restoring their physical conditions to one-time peak, that would wear out as they did when they were alive.

    then your theory got disproven, there is an undying body with unlimited chakra


    so how did the sharingan get deactivated? the eventual theory left is that it has something to do with the spirit/soul of the user.

    but that just raises further questions.
    it does not make sense as it means any amount of transplantation wouldn't help unless transplanting ripped out the other guy's soul, so whatever eyes the sharingan user gets, it'd still be blind when used by him

    in any case, all this is irrelevant as kishi has obviously chosen this path in his storyline, apparently without giving it much thought

    the point is, there is now the question of how izanagi/izanami deactivates the sharingan. it's obviously not a physical or chakra injury now that this has been confirmed

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Unlimited chakra doesn't mean the body isn't finite. We have still witness multiple Edo summons affected by their own limitations. Heck, Itachi still bleeds when he uses Amaterasu, which would have nothing to do with his soul. We saw Itachi physically affected all throughout the fight with Kabuto. The addition of unlimited chakra merely that they can keep fighting forever and presumably spam techniques, though we still have yet to see any do so.

  3. #138
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Quote:
    in any case, all this is irrelevant as kishi has obviously chosen this path in his storyline, apparently without giving it much thought
    That pretty much sums up the answer to most of the questions raised and discussed in this thread. Everyone is right, while simultaneously being completely wrong. Why, because the manga often contradicts itself. Kishi has shown a willingness to sacrifice consistency and basic logic for plot purposes or just plain old blatant fanservice. While he was initially focused on the details of the story, he has become more interested in the bang. The Senju & The Uchiha, two of the biggest bangs, ripped massive holes in the integrity and consistency of the story, although special credit does have to be given to the Uchiha on this front. At this point, they've just managed to get themselves and everyone else lost in the wreckage of their own awesomeness. And without a reliable guide to help us find our way some determinations are going to be near impossible to make.

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  5. #139
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    we do have some guide. It's been implied that Sharingan was rare even before Konoha was established. That could explain why Senju and Uchiha were able to fight evenly - the Uchiha who had Sharingan were either double teamed or fought against a prodigy. Makes more sense than Senju being strong enough to fight Sharingan and not lose everything.

    Though, any power related to Uchiha unfairly gets called powerup or "haxx" despite what we've seen. Though, the only reason I'm not calling Madara "haxxed" is due to the Kyuubi. Not sure if Muu and Oonoki really fought Madara, but he was able to take them down.


    HOWEVER, with what we saw from Obito and Sasuke, Sharingan should have been easy to unlock. Kishi's bein confusing. During the war, Sharingan should be easy to unlock due to the loss Uchiha should have faced, even if it wasn't as many. The situation they would have found themselves in should have given them enough emotion to unlock Sharingan. This is still a vague area that could be expanded upon.

  6. #140
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    we do have some guide. It's been implied that Sharingan was rare even before Konoha was established. That could explain why Senju and Uchiha were able to fight evenly - the Uchiha who had Sharingan were either double teamed or fought against a prodigy. Makes more sense than Senju being strong enough to fight Sharingan and not lose everything.

    Though, any power related to Uchiha unfairly gets called powerup or "haxx" despite what we've seen. Though, the only reason I'm not calling Madara "haxxed" is due to the Kyuubi. Not sure if Muu and Oonoki really fought Madara, but he was able to take them down.


    HOWEVER, with what we saw from Obito and Sasuke, Sharingan should have been easy to unlock. Kishi's bein confusing. During the war, Sharingan should be easy to unlock due to the loss Uchiha should have faced, even if it wasn't as many. The situation they would have found themselves in should have given them enough emotion to unlock Sharingan. This is still a vague area that could be expanded upon.
    good point.

    there was a war and people were dying by hte truckloads

    there should be plenty of MS going around

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Not MS necessarily, just Sharingan. Obito and Sasuke woke theirs from trauma or feeling strong emotion, whether to protect a friend or anger. Uchiha back then should have woken SHaringan considering their lives and their loved ones' lives tended to be in danger whenever they fought a battle. I can understand MS being very rare, at least in those times, but not Sharingan.

    However, Kishi did never say Sharingan was always rare. Might have meant after Konoha was formed, or after Hiruzen became a hokage.

  8. #142
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Given the way that databooks say it, it seems like it was always rare. Madara a was pretty much a prodigy, yet from what was shown, he didn't even awaken his Sharingan until later in life.

  9. #143
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted gnut's Avatar
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    Grin Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Quote:
    Might have meant after Konoha was formed, or after Hiruzen became a hokage.
    i agree with this because after konoha was formed they were no longer push to the limits of fighting senju(and others)regularly...this was the lead to their downfall by konoha or by another...not enough battle experience as a clan(they were security guards for konoha).
    plus,we have no idea how many fell in the great ninja wars(sharingan,ms,or ems)...because besides madara.it seems the whole clan back then were all in for konoha as far as protecting it...
    Last edited by gnut; June 29, 2012 at 05:47 PM.
    Look around you carefully. Strain your eyes at the darkness around us... At the darkness around me. You said anywhere but here. This is where, here, at the border. Gathered by the winds. Those who have met their final destiny hanging between jealousy and regret. Those who failed, swept together here. You say it doesnt matter where. If you follow me, this is where you'll go. This is your eden.

  10. #144
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by gnut View Post
    i agree with this because after konoha was formed they were no longer push to the limits of fighting senju(and others)regularly...this was the lead to their downfall by konoha or by another...not enough battle experience as a clan(they were security guards for konoha).
    plus,we have no idea how many fell in the great ninja wars(sharingan,ms,or ems)...because besides madara.it seems the whole clan back then were all in for konoha as far as protecting it...
    From what we saw, they couldn't have lacked that much battle experience when their threat of a civil war was taken so serious and the best option outside being taken out by Itachi was the clan being ambushed by the Hokage and Anbu from behind.

  11. #145
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    Sweaty Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    From what we saw, they couldn't have lacked that much battle experience when their threat of a civil war was taken so serious and the best option outside being taken out by Itachi was the clan being ambushed by the Hokage and Anbu from behind.
    i'm sorry battle exp. was bad wording...let's say everything was pretty lax for everyday living...kind of made them slouches/lazy...
    Look around you carefully. Strain your eyes at the darkness around us... At the darkness around me. You said anywhere but here. This is where, here, at the border. Gathered by the winds. Those who have met their final destiny hanging between jealousy and regret. Those who failed, swept together here. You say it doesnt matter where. If you follow me, this is where you'll go. This is your eden.

  12. #146
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Maybe, but we can't forget that the formation of the villages didn't prevent them from having to worry about warfare. We know that Konoha was involved in at least three major wars.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Unlimited chakra doesn't mean the body isn't finite. We have still witness multiple Edo summons affected by their own limitations. Heck, Itachi still bleeds when he uses Amaterasu, which would have nothing to do with his soul. We saw Itachi physically affected all throughout the fight with Kabuto. The addition of unlimited chakra merely that they can keep fighting forever and presumably spam techniques, though we still have yet to see any do so.
    that's just a temporary bleed though

    it's not that their bodies are infinite by being unable to get injured

    it's that they recover after getting injured

    in teh case of toxins, it's because the toxin paralytic effects are continuous and ongoing, i'm pretty sure if the toxins were stopped he'd instantly recover from paralysis, whereas a normal person would be pretty much down for the count.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Given the way that databooks say it, it seems like it was always rare. Madara a was pretty much a prodigy, yet from what was shown, he didn't even awaken his Sharingan until later in life.
    No. Madara awaken his sharingan when he was like sasuke or itachi as a genin. It was shown by itachi to sasuke. And i think we seen in the manga that all of uchiha who fought senju/any clan has the sharingan. Madara become a prodigy when he awaken his MS and later he awakened his EMS.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by hyper_megaman View Post
    that's just a temporary bleed though

    it's not that their bodies are infinite by being unable to get injured

    it's that they recover after getting injured

    in teh case of toxins, it's because the toxin paralytic effects are continuous and ongoing, i'm pretty sure if the toxins were stopped he'd instantly recover from paralysis, whereas a normal person would be pretty much down for the count.
    The MS bleeding has always been temporary and we saw the poison's effect on a living person via Mifune. Point remains that the Edo summons have shown actual organ and the drawbacks to having them, which would have nothing to do with their souls.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No. Madara awaken his sharingan when he was like sasuke or itachi as a genin. It was shown by itachi to sasuke. And i think we seen in the manga that all of uchiha who fought senju/any clan has the sharingan. Madara become a prodigy when he awaken his MS and later he awakened his EMS.
    First off, this was before the time of ninja ranks. Secondly, Madara and Izuna were shown in their teens, while Itachi and Sasuke were children. Madara was a prodigy before awakening MS/EMS and merely because we see a handful with the Sharingan doesn't mean every single one had it.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Not really, the manga just shown that izuna and madara has some kind of training. That's maybe the reason why he become a prodigy. He awaken his sharingan even if he was just a child/genin and later he awaken his MS and EMS. I never said that everyone in the uchiha clan has the sharingan. but rather i just said that the sharingan isn't a rare to uchiha clan at that time.

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