Claymore 128 Discussion

[Fermat]

Sweet that opens the door for me to ask something.....the fact that Miria was able to kill Claymore Hysteria... dose that mean she is stronger or just lucky?....and were the 3 revived warriors stronger then all of the Ghosts?.....Malak....Could claire beat Roxanne(who can hide her yoki..soo claires yoki sensing is useless), Hysteria(super fucking fast), and Cassandra(dust buster from hell)?

and on topic i am sure once Cassandra reaches the holy city they will try to break the seal...but how are they going to do that?

Nope, I say Hysteria is far more powerful than Miria. It was a fight in which Miria had an innate advantage—she could access yoki beyond the supposed "point of no return," giving her the ability to boost her speed to levels she couldn't have achieved otherwise. Even then, Hysteria managed to hold her own and was even able to find a weakness in Miria's almost-unavoidable "Beyond-Limit Phantom." Miria very narrowly managed to defeat her in what would become one of the biggest ass pulls Yagi would ever create, and in the process, she lost both arms and almost awakened. So yeah, she was lucky. She could've awakened at any point in time while using the "Beyond-Limit Phantom" but didn't, because of: 1) superb mental strength, and 2) plot armor.

As for the three revived warriors being stronger than the Ghosts, I believe they'd hand Deneve, Helen and all the lesser Ghosts their asses on a silver platter. Miria and Clare shall have to be discussed separately, though. These scenarios will involve Miria and Clare not going into a partial awakening.

Miria's strength is her speed. Only Hysteria can go toe-to-toe with her in this aspect and, as a result, is the only one of the three who has an outright chance to win. Roxanne's been shown to be quite quick herself, though I'm sure this won't approach "Beyond-Limit Phantom" levels. If she uses the BoE, though, she might have gain the attack speed advantage and manage to gouge Miria, eventually slowing her down. We also don't know just how powerful Elizabeth's "beautiful sword technique" is, so that's a big unknown factor. As for Cassandra, if she manages to cut off Miria's legs, it's all over.

As for Clare, her greatest assets are the QS and PYSA. The QS can provide a nigh impenetrable field that, again, only Hysteria has a chance to penetrate, though even this is uncertain. If Hysteria has the prowess to step close in between sword swings, then that's a point for her. Also, let's not forget how Rafaela managed to deflect the WC, QS's younger sibling. If the three have swordplay skills that surpasses Rafaela's and on par with Teresa's, then they'd overcome Clare's QS and win outright. Then there's the issue of fatigue. We are not sure just how long Clare can keep the QS active. The three can merely wait for Clare to grow tired or reach her limit and then go in for the kill. If that happens and Clare reverts to the WC instead, the swordplay skill issue will again arise, only this time, they'd only need to be at par with Rafaela to overcome Clare.

As for Clare's PYSA, it's a matter of whether Clare is fast enough to react to Hysteria's Elegance even if she does sense it coming. I personally believe she's not. If Clare senses Elegance coming and manages to bust out a PYSA-guided QS, the issue of sword skills comes into play. Roxanne can hide her yoki from Clare, so Clare would have no additional advantage against Roxanne. As for the DE, again, the issue would be whether she would be fast enough to react, as it's been shown that Cassandra in DE mode is hell fast.

[Claymore1]

Kinda random, but when I was reading Fermat's post it made me miss Clare, and I miss seeing her fight too

[serpico]

Nope, I say Hysteria is far more powerful than Miria. It was a fight in which Miria had an innate advantage—she could access yoki beyond the supposed "point of no return," giving her the ability to boost her speed to levels she couldn't have achieved otherwise. Even then, Hysteria managed to hold her own and was even able to find a weakness in Miria's almost-unavoidable "Beyond-Limit Phantom." Miria very narrowly managed to defeat her in what would become one of the biggest ass pulls Yagi would ever create, and in the process, she lost both arms and almost awakened. So yeah, she was lucky. She could've awakened at any point in time while using the "Beyond-Limit Phantom" but didn't, because of: 1) superb mental strength, and 2) plot armor.

As for the three revived warriors being stronger than the Ghosts, I believe they'd hand Deneve, Helen and all the lesser Ghosts their asses on a silver platter. Miria and Clare shall have to be discussed separately, though. These scenarios will involve Miria and Clare not going into a partial awakening.

Miria's strength is her speed. Only Hysteria can go toe-to-toe with her in this aspect and, as a result, is the only one of the three who has an outright chance to win. Roxanne's been shown to be quite quick herself, though I'm sure this won't approach "Beyond-Limit Phantom" levels. If she uses the BoE, though, she might have gain the attack speed advantage and manage to gouge Miria, eventually slowing her down. We also don't know just how powerful Elizabeth's "beautiful sword technique" is, so that's a big unknown factor. As for Cassandra, if she manages to cut off Miria's legs, it's all over.

As for Clare, her greatest asset is the QS and PYSA. It can provide a nigh impenetrable field that, again, only Hysteria has a chance to penetrate, though even this is uncertain. If Hysteria has the prowess to step close in between sword swings, then that's a point for her. Also, let's not forget how Rafaela managed to deflect the WC, QS's younger sibling. If the three have swordplay skills that surpasses Rafaela's and on par with Teresa's, then they'd overcome Clare's QS and win outright. Then there's the issue of fatigue. We are not sure just how long Clare can keep the QS active. The three can merely wait for Clare to grow tired or reach her limit and then go in for the kill. If that happens and Clare reverts to the WC instead, the swordplay skill issue will again arise, only this time, they'd only need to be at par with Rafaela to overcome Clare.

As for Clare's PYSA, it's a matter of whether Clare is fast enough to react to Hysteria's Elegance even if she does sense it coming. I personally believe she's not. If Clare senses Elegance coming and manages to bust out a PYSA-guided QS, the issue of sword skills comes into play. Roxanne can hide her yoki from Clare, so Clare would have no additional advantage against Roxanne. As for the DE, again, the issue would be whether she would be fast enough to react, as it's been shown that Cassandra in DE mode is hell fast.

It's was more plot armor than lucky as you can see histeria at the beginning she show cleverness as a smart one and super high speed and went histeria was almost finishing miria she make a comeback and kill histeria in a way too ridiculous in with she grabbed the sword with her teeth and impaled histeria a speed below average on with she no use her phantom it she was moving a speed average histeria should be able to see the sword laying on the ground and were miria fall to were miria stand and moving towards her histeria should be able to see the sword on her mouth.
And went histeria awakened yagi make seen to idiot to the fact tha prime they say is her weak point something moronic and stupid with have no real strategy or cleverness to the way she was beating.
And histeria always was superior in strength, technique and speed even went miria was to the point of awakened miria was always below her.

[SaphG1]

It can provide a nigh impenetrable field that, again, only Hysteria has a chance to penetrate, though even this is uncertain. If Hysteria has the prowess to step close in between sword swings, then that's a point for her. Also, let's not forget how Rafaela managed to deflect the WC, QS's younger sibling.

I'd have to say Miria/Hysteria type speed stands no chance of getting in against the QS once it's in full motion. There's a difference between accelerated straight line speed and omnidirectional speed over a limited area. it's not the speed so much as the saturation of the cutting blade inside the range of the QS. Unless there is a space large enough within the constantly moving offense for Hysteria/Miria to accelerate into without passing through a blade path, initiate an attack then pass back out of range they die. All a QS user has to do is attack everything around them indiscriminately. It's like trying to fire a cannonball between helicopter blades.

Also, let's not forget how Rafaela managed to deflect the WC, QS's younger sibling.

The Rafaela in Clare mind was built upon her perception of Rafaela from an outside perspective. The parameters of dream Refaela in no way actually reflected what her real self could have done, as Clare had never seen her in combat. Clare assumed Rafaela was strong, therefore she was strong. Clare however had unwavering confidence in her QS, so the QS overpowered Rafaela. All that proves is that Clare had a more intimate affinity and connection to the QS, we have no idea if the real Rafaela could handle either the WC or the QS.

[MalakTawus]

@number12michael

the fact that Miria was able to kill Claymore Hysteria... dose that mean she is stronger or just lucky?

Miria stronger than Histy?????NO WAY.....not even close tbh,lol.
Miria has "won" against Histy only thanx to her intelligence and an immense dose of luck.
Miria is not even at Histy's level even when she is a normal warrior and in her abyssal form Miria's is only a bit more than an ant compared to Histy,seriously.

and were the 3 revived warriors stronger then all of the Ghosts?

Obviously the 3 monster were stronger than the ghosts, and not just stronger, IMMENSELY STRONGER. The ghosts only hope was to let the 3 abyssal fight and kill each other, infact now that there is only 1 abyssal left there is absolutely nothing that they can do to Cassy since a normal attack is 100% suicide (with zero chance of victory btw).

Could claire beat Roxanne(who can hide her yoki..soo claires yoki sensing is useless), Hysteria(super fucking fast), and Cassandra(dust buster from hell)?

We don't have enough information about Claire's power to say this for sure so i'll just tell you my personal speculation:

First of all a precisation: i refer to Claire before Raph encounter and blob fusion, since when she'll come out of the blob Claire's power could be the same (yeah,right....) or more probably very very different.

IMO Claire is clearly stronger than Miria by a good margin (not huge but also not too little), and that margin becomes very big if Claire uses the QoB mode.
Since we have seen that Miria is not at "strong n.1 level" but still quite close, i speculate that Claire (without using QoB) should be equal to "strong n.1s" warriors.
Obviously Claire in her normal form is A LOT weaker than abyssal level, but if she uses QoB mode she is probably at abyssal level, probably even stronger (afterall she would have more or less Histy's level of speed BUT an immensely greater distructive power).

But just to be clear, it's not that i think that Claire in QoB mode can fight equally with Prissy,lol......imo to fight against Prissy on equal ground Claire will have to do some sort of full awakening.

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Miria hopes that Cassy will give them a chance to escape (i mean,i hope she is not thinking of using that chance to attack Prissy, THAT would be totally useless,lol) but the problem is that the only hope that Cassy has to cause that chance is if Prissy doesn't fight seriously but plays around like she usually do.........if instead Prissy attacks Cassy seriously she could kill her in an instant and the ghosts have to say goodbye to their miracle.....

My personal bet:
.....IMO Miria is making a big mistake and infact i think that the "miracle" will come exactly from that mistake:
imo Cassy won't create any opening, BUT when Claire will come out from that blob she will have all her powers released (thanx to something happening in the mental world) and will start attacking Prissy fighting equally. There are so many different directions that Yagi could take the story in the next chapters, i can't wait to see what he has in store for us


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@SaphG1

Ehmm, what you say about Raph is not exactly true.
I mean,it's true that the Raph's aspect was built by Claire's mind, BUT Raph is not like Jean or the rest of the vision that are simple fruit of Claire's imagination, Raph is REALLY there and the strenght and the fight that she shows are not the strenght that Claire's imagine, those are the real Raph's abilities.

It's proof that that was really Raph also the smile when she hear that Claire used Irene's technique.


@Fermat

Like SaphG1 also said, no matter how fast Miria and Histy are, their speed will NEVER be enough against the QS speed for obvious reasons,think about it.
Actually, Miria's and Histy's speed is totally useless against Claire since it would basically like serving Claire the victory on a plate.

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Also it's a lot more probable that Raph is stronger than the 3 resurrected (in human form i mean) instead of the contrary....

[Fermat]

@SaphG1: Indeed, it would be difficult even for Hysteria to get an attack in even with Elegance. It would have to be a perfectly timed strike, or it'll result in death. There are only a few split-second instances to enter the field of attack: 1) at any point during an off-center vertical or near-vertical swing, and 2) near the beginning or end of a horizontal or near-horizontal swing. As to whether Hysteria has the visual prowess to see those aforementioned openings and the raw speed to go in before the next swing, we can't really be certain. It's a matter of personal opinion. As for the exit path, once the strike lands on Clare, I assume a near-instantaneous pause in the QS, or at least a significant decrease in its lethality, allowing for a far easier route compared to the forward charge.

As for Rafaela, it was Clare who was inside the collective consciousness of the Destroyer, not the other way around, as stated here. What's stated here, however, regarding Rafaela's mind is a bit confusing. My interpretation is Clare's presence caused what was left of Rafaela's mind to reform because there was something Rafaela knew that Clare needed to know. The reformed mind needed a body to inhabit, hence, a form was created using Clare's memory. I had always assumed, then, that Clare was indeed fighting Rafaela herself in a body Clare had created, not Rafaela as Clare assumed she would be in a body she had created.

[SaphG1]

Fermat

@SaphG1: Indeed, it would be difficult even for Hysteria to get an attack in even with Elegance. It would have to be a perfectly timed strike, or it'll result in death. There are only a few split-second instances to enter the field of attack: 1) at any point during an off-center vertical or near-vertical swing, and 2) near the beginning or end of a horizontal or near-horizontal swing. As to whether Hysteria has the visual prowess to see those aforementioned openings and the raw speed to go in before the next swing, we can't really be certain. It's a matter of personal opinion. As for the exit path, once the strike lands on Clare, I assume a near-instantaneous pause in the QS, or at least a significant decrease in its lethality, allowing for a far easier route compared to the forward charge.

For Hysteria it's not just getting inside the QS there are too many factors that make it impossible. IF Hysteria were as small as a bee(a smaller target), able to freely change direction and control her body while moving at maximum speed and could calculate well over dozens of steps ahead so she was ready to dodge each unique attack through her movement path, then she would stand a chance of getting in. If you remember Teresa vs Irene, she's able to block the QS because her reading ability allows her to take the 'short' path to blocking without having to guess. As long as you have the shortcut you don't have to be nearly as fast, just fast enough. In Hysteria vs active QS that same factor actual plays against her, she could be faster and still lose, IF she is faster at all. The way Hysteria beats the QS is to attack before it starts and taking the f@ck#ng head shot instead of that never finish anyone off shoulder cutting nonsense they gimmick her with so she can lose.

As to Rafaela being stronger then the three resurrected warriors I doubt that highly. Rafaela's power strength is a lesser version of Alicia in human form. She's is an all A perfectly balanced high end warrior, who has no particular weaknesses but also no particular strengths and no unique skills aside from Suppression, which is only effective at the start of a fight. Her skill 'would' have been the soul linking ability along with her sister and her attributes would have probably been at the same level as those of Alicia if the experiment had succeeded and they continued to be hand raised by the organization.

Though Rafaela's consciousness was there it had no control over any aspect of the mental world. Therefore we're taking about a psychic 'impression' whose attributes are under the complete control of the perspective of Clare the creator. Rafaela didn't have an actual new body after all, it was only the shape the Clare's mind put around Rafaela's consciousness in order to be able to comprehend it. If Clare remembered Rafaela as a giant eight legged spider monsters, then she would have been a giant eight legged spider monster. Clare didn't create a blank body that Rafaela's soul jumped inside of and fine tuned to her specific needs. In essence, depending on Clares impressions, The Rafaela she fought could have been infinitely strong or infinitely weak. The Rafaela consciousness could only assemble and image of its former self based upon the 'data' present in Clare's memories. Even if she could have formed herself, her strength in an astral world could have been many times that of the real world. Mental worlds are all about who has the stronger mind, the limitations of the body don't apply.

Also it's a lot more probable that Raph is stronger than the 3 resurrected (in human form i mean) instead of the contrary....

As to Rafaela being stronger then the three resurrected warriors I doubt that highly. Rafaela's power strength is a lesser version of Alicia in human form. She's is an all Aperfectly balanced high end warrior, who has no weak attribute but nothing outstanding either. She's a factory standard no.1. Like all no.1's she's definitely 'on par' with her fellow rank holders but she doesn't have anything that acts as an edge to allow her to surpass them.

[MalakTawus]

You are understimating Raph way too much SaphG1.
Since the very beginning Raph has always been at strong n.1 level like her sister.......but compared to the resurrected monsters (in human form obviously) she is VERY probably stronger 'cause it had a lot more knowledge and also it's almost certain that since her objective was to kill her sister, an abyssal,even if the manga doesn't show it's quite obvious tha she must have trained a lot more than any other warrior.

Another speculation that highly points in favar of Raph being stronger is the fact that warriors are created with DoDs, and DoDs become stronger the more time passes.....

In other words, Raph is AT LEAST at the level of the 3 resurrected, but it's actually VERY VERY probable (almost unavoidable) that she is (well, "was") indeed stronger than them (just to be clear,i'm not talking about big differences,ok?).
Also i'll say again, those stats are the stats given by the mibs and we know for a fact that Mibs often have no idea of the real strenght of a warrior......and if you consider that Raph is super introvert i'd say it's almost certain that the stats about her are imprecise (well, anyway her stats are impressive even as they are).

[number12michael]

You are understimating Raph way too much SaphG1.
Since the very beginning Raph has always been at strong n.1 level like her sister.......but compared to the resurrected monsters (in human form obviously) she is VERY probably stronger 'cause it had a lot more knowledge and also it's almost certain that since her objective was to kill her sister, an abyssal,even if the manga doesn't show it's quite obvious tha she must have trained a lot more than any other warrior.

Another speculation that highly points in favar of Raph being stronger is the fact that warriors are created with DoDs, and DoDs become stronger the more time passes.....

In other words, Raph is AT LEAST at the level of the 3 resurrected, but it's actually VERY VERY probable (almost unavoidable) that she is (well, "was") indeed stronger than them (just to be clear,i'm not talking about big differences,ok?).
Also i'll say again, those stats are the stats given by the mibs and we know for a fact that Mibs often have no idea of the real strenght of a warrior......and if you consider that Raph is super introvert i'd say it's almost certain that the stats about her are imprecise (well, anyway her stats are impressive even as they are).

....lol the Org knew that she was just as strong as her sister...thats why they striped her of her rank in the first place...they did not want the chance of her awakening and creating another AO.....so they knew of her strength....but why did they not include her in the 8 strongest ?...is it because those 8 have power that could surpass Luciellia , riful ,isely and by extension Raph ?

[MalakTawus]

Well,technically the Mibs are only listing n.1s so Raph is out of that list.......or maybe they simply considered Raph at the same level as Luciela so Raph was out of suspicion to be the mysterious unknown monster.

[Fermat]

The way Hysteria beats the QS is to attack before it starts and taking the f@ck#ng head shot instead of that never finish anyone off shoulder cutting nonsense they gimmick her with so she can lose

Point taken, and LOL at the shoulder cutting. She seems to love that so much. Even as an AO, that was all she did to Miria.

Though Rafaela's consciousness was there it had no control over any aspect of the mental world. Therefore we're taking about a psychic 'impression' whose attributes are under the complete control of the perspective of Clare the creator. Rafaela didn't have an actual new body after all, it was only the shape the Clare's mind put around Rafaela's consciousness in order to be able to comprehend it. If Clare remembered Rafaela as a giant eight legged spider monsters, then she would have been a giant eight legged spider monster. Clare didn't create a blank body that Rafaela's soul jumped inside of and fine tuned to her specific needs. In essence, depending on Clares impressions, The Rafaela she fought could have been infinitely strong or infinitely weak. The Rafaela consciousness could only assemble and image of its former self based upon the 'data' present in Clare's memories. Even if she could have formed herself, her strength in an astral world could have been many times that of the real world. Mental worlds are all about who has the stronger mind, the limitations of the body don't apply.

If Rafaela's consciousness was merely based based on the "data" present in Clare's memories, then what of "that which you must know?" Only the real Rafaela knew this.

As to Rafaela being stronger then the three resurrected warriors I doubt that highly. Rafaela's power strength is a lesser version of Alicia in human form. She's is an all Aperfectly balanced high end warrior, who has no weak attribute but nothing outstanding either. She's a factory standard no.1. Like all no.1's she's definitely 'on par' with her fellow rank holders but she doesn't have anything that acts as an edge to allow her to surpass them.

Agreed.

[Shiek927]

As to Rafaela being stronger then the three resurrected warriors I doubt that highly. Rafaela's power strength is a lesser version of Alicia in human form. She's is an all Aperfectly balanced high end warrior, who has no weak attribute but nothing outstanding either. She's a factory standard no.1. Like all no.1's she's definitely 'on par' with her fellow rank holders but she doesn't have anything that acts as an edge to allow her to surpass them.

Definitely agree here.....well, except on one bit -- we need to remember that Rafaela was a Number 2 and Luciella was the No.1 chosen to transform, so maybe Beth would be a better comparison....both sisters are supposed to have the same potential, is what we heard -- now, does that mean that Rafaela was merely chosen to be No.2 over her sister because of something superficial like Luciella wanting to be the one who changes? because she's older? Why were the ranks really distributed the way they were? We just don't know.

It's the same for Alicia and Beth....Beth was chosen to be No.2, but it would be premature to say she was truly that "weak" compared to her sister....like with their predecessors, they both seemed to been given their ranks for unknown and probably superficial reasons, because they both essentially No.1 warriors with the same potential, as was the first two - I'm not sure it's right to say both Beth and Rafaela were weaker then their siblings...they simply ended up with a lesser rank and focused on their support roles in the project.

It would be interesting to see both pairs of sisters fighting eachother and who would win; for all we know, maybe they had a friendly battle to see which had the better attributes the Org wanted, or some other tests were done to see who would be right for which role....all speculation of course.

But her (Rafaela) power cannot be stated enough...she really is a magnificent No.1 even if she never actually had the rank, and indeed has no real weaknesses except perhaps that their are some beings that are simply stronger...but those are few in number and essentially all are Awakened....as far as warriors go, Rafaela was always among the very very top.

[SaphG1]

I agree about Rafaela being strong. When I say factory standard I don't mean she's lame what I mean is she was MADE to be no.1 level

Other no.1 level claymore are like genetic wild cards. They appear throughout the generations, have varying abilities and unique sets of attributes. At their base however they are randomized experiments with excellent results. Some of these results have led to exceedingly powerful warriors with amazing abilities like Teresa, Hysteria, Cassandra, Roxanne (we could even add Priscella and Miata who both had/have been stated to be no.1 material but lacked/lack mental capacity or control).

Rafaela, Luciella, Alicia and Beth are different from other number ones. There is nothing random or left to chance about the four of them. They are literally hand raised by the organization and guided step by step to avoid 'random' elements. Rafaela's Databook ranking is A level in every aspect which she would have shared in capacity with Luciella. Alicia and Beth are both A+ rank in every aspect which basically just goes to show the finally result The first soul link sisters would have reached if they'd completed their training. As far as power is concerned, other number ones may break the mold, but the soul link practitioners literally are the mold.

Ideally the trainee twins represent the final result that the Organization wanted of soul link warriors, with both having identical and interchangeable awakening abilities at the same power. I can imagine those two would have been raised to have power equal to Alicia and Beth but had even higher utility since they could trade places when awakening. The only step after that would be two warriors who could simultaneously awaken but still proxy each-others minds as a means of reverting ^^

So yea, Factory standard no.1 level is far from bad. Doesn't mean their won't be anyone stronger but it does mean that they will always be strong Claymores.

[Shiek927]

I never meant to imply that you said she was bad - you never ever said that.....I'm not sure I agree on the notion though that both pairs of sisters became as strong as they did because they were hand-raised by the Org....their is always that element of inherit strength; that, "they are stronger then you, just because"....this is especially apparent in the old days when this black/white mentality was still around (which in many ways, I preferred), and not this conventional stuff where Clarice could squash an Abyssal if she'd only believe in herself.

Remember, Alicia and Beth were only taken by the Org seemingly because they were twins...that's it, which means, more likely then not, that Luciella and Rafaela were also picked simply because they were siblings.

The point I'm making is that, they are strong, but part of that is natural...they didn't get as far as they did simply because the Org guided them there and didn't leave them alone in the dog-eat-dog island to sort themselves out (though that definitely had an aspect); again, both pairs show both sisters have as much potential as the other - the Org could not have manipulated that.

[The Based]

Way to be rude Helen. It’s like an AB can’t even cross the street without being questioned. And then she has the nerve to start bullying Clarice (who is moe as usual).