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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
What I get from this:
As far as the Org knows, only three number one warriors awakened. That's probably true.
You're claiming that the Org calls that to only 'strong' number ones who awaken. But you see, I don't think there have been any 'weak' number ones that awakened.
I could understand your claim if there was, and the Org compared them to the 'strong' ones and decided to name the latter Abyssal Ones because they were in a class of their own. But that is not the case.
And I say Dae or the MIB don't make any distinction based on strength. They don't say that Isley or Riful or Luciela were particularily strong. You're somehow extrapoling that from...somewhere.
'Leaving aside whether they can exceed them or not' The MIB don't make it clear whether the eight on the list could exceed the original three or not. They could be stronger, or they could be the same.
You're essentially arguing that the number one position doesn't reflect a certain class of power. That it is given to the strongest warrior available, whatever her strength is. And I say that simply doesn't make sense. When the top five positions became vacant after Teresa's death, am I to understand that the then number 6 warrior was promoted to the top?
The fact that all the number ones we've seen (bar Teresa) seem to be of comparable strength would suggest that there is, indeed, a certain 'tier' or 'level' you have to reach to be considered a number one warrior. Where Miria probably is now.
But please, Abyssal Ones are former number ones that awaken. Whether they were 'strong' or 'weak' doesn't matter. Period.
And number 10 Rafutela with her special ability has the power to take down any single digit except Alicia and Beth ( because of their sibling awakening thing ), she demonstrated that she even has grater potential as she manipulated Cassandra and Roxane.
To tell you the truth, Organization is giving ranks according to level of Yoki that individual Claymore posses - not according to individual powers.
This doesn't change the fact that from what the mibs said it's OBVIOUS that there were in the past n.1s clearly weaker than the 3 abyssals.Quote:
It seems you are making a great confusion about what i said and are completely distorting the concept behind it, so i'll be SUPER EASY in my exposition:
the reason why there is an huge gap in power between awakened n.2 and abyssals is because those 3 abyssals were not any n.1, they were between the strongest n.1 in history. Do you get it now???
The gap in power is not connect in any way with the fact that they were n.1s, the gap is connected to the fact that even as n.1s they were particularly strong!!!
Honestly, even a child can understand that it doesn't make any sense to connect the gap in power with the fact that they were n.1s.
Being n.1 is just a title,nothing more!!!! All that matter is raw power, and evidently the 3 abyssals were particularly strong even between n.1s, that's why there is an huge gap with awakened n.2s.....
If you can't extrapolating from what the mibs said that the 3 abyssals were between the strongest it's your own problem.Quote:
The simple fact that they are asking themselves who between the past n.1s (and there were TONS of past n.1s!!!) could MAYBE surpass those 3 (this means that those warriors seems to have more or less the same power as the 3 abyssals) already confirms that there must have been a lot of past n.1s that were clearly weaker......and logically this means that the 3 abyssals were between the strong n.1s.
Exactly! And if you didn't notice, this actualy supports what i'm saying,lol.Quote:
Yes, that's exactly it. If the top five positions become vacant, when the mibs reorganize the rankings, if they don't have in that moment a trainee stronger than the n.6, than yes, the n.6 becomes the n.1 until the mibs don't find a trainee stronger than her.Honestly it doesn't takre a genius.Quote:
You don't have to confuse this: n.1s are the strongest warriors in their time, so normally it's obvious that generally they are very strong, but since we know for a fact that in the past there were a lot of n.1s, it's freaking obvious that (for example) SOMETIMES a number 1 can be as strong as a n.2 of another generation (or the contrary).......and sometimes also happen that "arrive" warriors that are particularly strong that obviously become n.1s and so are stronger than other n.1s!!!
Of course if nothing strange happens (like top warriors suddenly dying at the same time), n.1s will always have at least a certain level of strenght, it's a matter of probability considering that the org continually creates a lot of trainees, so of course during the years and generations was formed a power level that indicates warriors that have n.1 potential.
Last edited by MalakTawus; July 11, 2012 at 05:10 PM.
My "paws" example is perfectly fine you just missed the point. It doesn't matter that in the example I've given someone relies on his eyesight (or touch) and Teresa on PYS. The principle is the same. Unless someone would be immensely faster than his opponent it would be impossible to dodge the attack every single time. If she was slower than her opponent, with every attack he would be gaining an advantage. Lets say say that the frequency of Teresa's attacks is 45 Hz and Irene's QS 50 Hz (45 and 50 times per second respectively). I could believe that for a couple of attacks PYS could give her the edge she needed to but after a few minutes - let's say 6 for easier calculations - Teresa would be able to do 270 slashes while Irene 300. The difference of 30 slashes wouldn't suddenly disappear just because of PYS and at least some of them would reach Teresa.
It's even more evident since when Irene went into the room where Teresa and Clare were staying in she was already in QS mode and for Teresa to "hop in" as she did (so without being injured and without her hand being ripped off) she had to be faster because Irene was already operating in 50 Hz mode while Teresa was still in 0 Hz mode. Also, it's not like Teresa was stopping Irene's movement with her every attack (if it was the case it would be possible for her to be a bit slower), later she was casually exchanging every slash and perfectly adjusting to Irene's speed.
Take note also that PYS was never shown as something that gives you automatic response. Clare needed to think and needed to dodge it herself and in fact the only cases in which PYS was shown to work was when Clare was fighting with opponents using long-range attacks (like male AB from Slasher's arc or Rigaldo). In Teresa's case we do not even know when she was using it. It didn't work on unpredictable attacks, hence Clare didn't even stand a chance against Ophelia and Teresa was injured by an unpredictable attack of Priscilla (however, later when she released her youki she could easily do it). That's because PYS doesn't follow the sword but the arm and sword can be held in various ways (by an opponent and by the one using PYS so in the end you need to think and see in order to counter attacks).
But anyway, all of the above is not necessary to show that I'm right. Teresa fighting with ease with cloaked Priscilla (who was faster than Irene even in non-youki mode) and most of all 4 opponents at once (where Priscilla was even faster since she was using her youki) show it explicitly that the speed Teresa has shown in her fight with Irene wasn't even close to her maximum.
I've written much more on this subject before (mainly on AS to which links I've provided in the MH thread) but appararently you didn't even bother to read it so I find it pointless to discuss it further (especially here).
Last edited by Miyagi; July 13, 2012 at 03:06 AM.
Its not that I'm missing any of your points, I'm just avoiding the ones that don't actually matter. Your explanation makes sense but only under the context of matching frequency with frequency, which as already been depicted in the whole WC vs QS duel. Your leaving out the other half of the equation and that's why,and no offense meant in any of this reply, you end up incorrect..
We'll keep it simple
Irene's strike must travel 2 meter(6FT) to reach Teresa. Her strike is moving at 200MPH
Teresa must block Irene's strike at a minimum of 1 meter(3FT) distance away from herself.
How fast does Teresa need to move to match Irene's speed? Lets do the math.
200MPH = 89.408MPS where as time=distance/speed
Irene covers the distance 0.022 seconds
This indicates that If Teresa were moving as fast as Irene without even factoring in that she is moving before Irene does, that her blade would reach its blocking point at double the speed of of Irene's swing. She would be completely missing the blocks at this speed, because she was going too fast.
Lets find the speed she needs to meet the strikes at three feet (in the middle of the distance effectively)
The exact same time at half the speed. In order to deflect these strikes Teresa only needs to move at half the speed of Irene.
because Teresa's blocking distance is only half of Irene's attacking distance she can go much much slower and still keep up. If we factor in the Teresa actually starting the course of her movement slightly before Irene even if just by a second the required speed she need drops off immensely.
What you are trying to factor for is human error and different frequency of the strikes, which is only one aspect of the QS. Teresa is matching the frequency of the strikes but that in no way means she's matching their actual speed, merely the number of repetitions. With her PYSA giving her a head start however and factoring in the flat edge of the blade (you block length wise not tip to tip) she could be deflecting multiple strikes with a single block which allows her to be slower still. So for Teresa to defend against the QS she wasn't matching(nor would it be necessary for her) he speed of each blow indivdual blow. She was not performing the QS against the QS he just had a defenders advantage. There never has and never will be any indication that she could perform that move inherently.
Last edited by Miyagi; July 13, 2012 at 03:05 AM.
Just a note guys, if I learned something in my life it is that it's a bad idea to use our own scientific methods and theories to explain how things work in some sci-fi or fantasy world. So saying that Ilena's strike is 200MPH without any other information is just here-say that is probably wrong.
Just to put my two cents in regarding several issues...
No, it is not obvious that Isley, Riful and Luciela were exceptional No. 1 warriors. They were simply the only No. 1 warriors who awakened, and possessed powers far beyond any other ABs at the time; hence, the creation of the title "Abyssal Ones." The title was likely created after Riful's awakening, in their observation that awakened No. 1 warriors tended to possess powers far beyond their peers. It was at a time, perhaps, that the MiB believed it only natural that the most powerful claymores awakened into the most powerful ABs, and they decided that holding the rank of No. 1 when awakening became the requirement for the title.
For the most part until Priscilla, it has held true. If any of the single-digits who awakened ever had a comparable power, would it not have been logical for the MiB to have changed their requirement for the AO title to "possessing a certain power level?" Consider the awakened No. 2 warriors (save for Priscilla, of course): Rigaldo, Agatha and Octavia. If any of them had awakened into ABs who were comparable to Isley, Riful or Luciela, wouldn't the Organization have decided to change the definition of an AO, as labeling another an AO would surely have affected the way they planned their moves, as Chronos has stated in the latest scene?
And so we loop back. Does this mean that the three were exceptional No. 1 warriors after all? We can only assume, but can never be certain. There are three possibilities:
1) They were indeed exceptional No. 1 warriors and hence, were leagues above all awakened No. 2 warriors, even the high-tier ones.
2) They were not exceptional No. 1 warriors and all the No. 2 warriors who have awakened just happened to be mid- to low-tier ones, hence, not one of the latter could even compare.
3) They were not exceptional No. 1 warriors, but even the high-tier No. 2 warriors (save for Priscilla) who have awakened never came close in terms of power simply because No. 1 warriors are leagues above No. 2 warriors and awakening only serves to magnify that gap.
But what of the notion that there may be some high-tier No. 2 warriors of certain generations that might be more powerful than No. 1 warriors of other generations? Let us examine further.
What I believe in is that the No. 1 ranking is given only to those worthy of the title. If MiB shifted rankings so easily, why didn't Flora remain No. 8 after Eva's death. More pertinent to the point, why did Audrey remain No. 3 after Alicia and Beth's untimely deaths? I believe this is simply because Audrey simply didn't have the chops to be ranked No. 1, even a low-tier one. The rank is likely something they don't give indiscriminately, even in times of mass claymore death. I doubt they gave Elda the No. 1 ranking after Teresa's death. I guess they leave the spot vacant until one of the claymores is deemed powerful enough to be given the rank.
As for Rosemary, No. 4, becoming No. 1 after Hysteria, there are again several possibilities:
1) Rosemary, along with Nos. 2-3, were low- to mid-tier No. 1 material and Hysteria just happened to be an exceptional No. 1.
2) Rosemary waited a little before becoming No. 1, and the spot remained vacant until she was deemed worthy of it.
Why is it so hard to believe that they would give Elda or a still-not-so-powerful Rosemary the rank of No. 1? It's purely speculative, really. If, after Luciela's awakening, the highest ranking warrior save for Rafaela had been, say, No. 15, would you sincerely have believed that the Organization would've given her the rank of No. 1? Yes, rank is but a number, yet it holds greater meaning. It represents the pinnacle of what the Organization is capable of producing, and I doubt they would give it away so easily.
But this sentiment does not preclude the occurrence of high-tier No. 2 warriors (eventually) exceeding No. 1 warriors. Priscilla is a prime example, as is Roxanne. However, I believe they are exceptions rather than the rule—the hypothetical "more than two or three standard deviations from the mean in a normal distribution." For the most part, I believe that No. 1 warriors are always leagues above their No. 2 warriors, and so their predicted powers as ABs had almost never been off the expected trend, i.e. No. 1 (AO) being far more than No. 2 (just an exceptionally powerful AB). Teresa was far more powerful than Irene. Hysteria stated she could've killed everyone (by extrapolation, including No. 2) if it wasn't for Teresa. Cassandra's No. 2 when Roxanne was still No. 5 was explicitly stated to be far weaker than her. Isley was far more powerful than Rigaldo (though this is stipulated from their capabilities as AB).
Oh god, you too?Quote:
Why people don't understand that the 3 abyssals were between the strongest ,1s? It's not a speculation, it's a fact said clearly in the manga!
Not only that, it's also obvious that those 3 were particularly strong n.1s by the fact that there is an huge gap in power with awakened n.2s.
What the hell do you people think? That when a warrior gets nominated n.1 she gets an extra power when she awakens?
There were TONS of n.1s warriors! TONS!!!! ....and only a few had a power comparable with the 3 abyssals, so it's 100% certain that most of the past n.1s were clearly weaker than the 3 abyssals.
I repeat, it's not a speculation, it's a fact that the 3 abyssals also happened to be between the strongest n.1s.
And btw Fermat, the second and third option that you listen are not possible at all for a very simple reason:
we know for a fact that Mibs can't control how strong a warrior becomes with the "claymorization" (if not it doesn't make sense to have so many weak warriors) and we also know for a fact that the mibs create tons of warriors during the years....
If you know a bit of matemathics you should be able to understand why option n.2 and n.3 are not valid at all since their probability is very very low.
Any organization that use a ranking system would NEVER change the rankings as soon as there are vacant spots, it would only cause confusion.
It's not that claymore's setting is located in modern days where you could instantaniously reorganize the rankings without any problems (thanx to modern technology), it's OBVIOUS that in a medival setting, ranks were updated only sometimes when the org nominated the new trainees to complete the set of 47 warriors.
What you contest here is 100% ridiculous because in case you haven't notice the org not only has not updated the rankings (not only Audrey), they haven't even repopulated the missing spots at all!!!!
Of course the rankings haven't changed,only morons would have updated the rankings in that situation,lol.
Last edited by Ancy; July 12, 2012 at 08:44 AM.
I don't really want to get into this, but where does it say that?Quote:
Impossible? I suggest that you don't use so strong a word. Improbable, perhaps, but not impossible. Consider Teresa and Priscilla. What were the chances that these two monsters would, by chance, appear in the same generation? I'd say close to zero, and yet they exist (in the manga, I mean).
Last edited by Fermat; July 12, 2012 at 10:00 AM.
Dude, drop the condescending tone. Just because I disagree with your point doesn't mean I don't see it. I'm the one who raised the issue of the difference between awakened no. 1s and 2s to begin with.
You then said that the Abyssal One title specifically refers to 'strong' number ones, not just ordinary ones, which is why there's such a difference.
The implication being that 1) the original three were in the 'strong' category, and 2) an awakened 'normal' no. 1 wouldn't be that strong.
All that could be correct, however I pointed out that the awakening process isn't as straight-forward as you seem to think. Hysteria being the example; a particularly strong no. 1, but rather weak compared to her (awakened) comrades (and yet still retaining her title of Abyssal One).
I argued instead that that title refers to any no. 1 that awakens, since warriors with that position are in a class above the rest. It can't be, you said, there's no such thing as a no. 1 class. That position just goes to whoever is the strongest, regardless of their strength.
I (naturally) disagree, so here we are. And this in response to your post on page 32.
The Wall of text:
Edit to mention that I composed this post before taking a look a Fermat's post on the top of the page. Now I feel a bit redundant
Last edited by Dark Night; July 12, 2012 at 10:43 AM.
Things to remember: example numbers do not change the formula. The addition of other variables has nothing to do with the formula presented, which is time=distance/speed. You could change the numbers a thousands times to a thousand different things and the math will not change. As long as the distance is shorter for one the speed required will always be less. It's a result that can be competently reproduced over and over, not some made up theory or scientific method, just hard math. Change Irene's speed from 200MPH to 1,000,000,000MPH and the math still doesn't change. The shorter travel distance takes less speed to reach its destination at same time; longer distance will require greater speed to reach the destination point at the same time as the shorter distance.
As to applying actual math or physics to fantasy work. There's something called common knowledge which factors into aspects of a story and do not need to be explained unless specifically changed by the author. Every author including fantasy and sci-fi authors use this kind of knowledge
If character A lights his house on fire, it burns down, this is common knowledge. The author doesn't need to stop and explain to you what the fire does to the house, unless in the world they create fire behaves differently then it does naturally. So if in the author's fantasy world burning actually makes things wet it's guaranteed that the author will let this fact be known, otherwise the difference would effect the continuity of his story. The math might seem different but it's just a complex way of describing common knowledge.
Last edited by SaphG1; July 12, 2012 at 11:06 AM.
Math not being my thing I can't really ascertain anything, but it's not only the speed; the frequency of the strikes should also matter, no? Like the faster the QS is, the more strikes land. Something like that. Though I doubt Yagi thought about it that deeply. Too bad he was not aware of fans with time on their hands.
Anyway, this just makes me question again what and how the Org measures their warriors. Base abilities? Or full yoki release?
Wow, I missed a lot of this debate.
I admit that I have not read either reply perfectly, but I do not think it is safe to say that the three Abysmal were set apart from all other no.1s. While it is true the Abysmals were powerful, we do not fully understand the circumstances around their awakening or of other no.1. For instance, early generations (Isley and Riful) could potentially have been intentionally let go by the org to test future generations or perhaps the protocol of the blackcards or even AB hunting was not yet established in the early years. Point being, we do not know whether the control exerted over the Claymores of Claire and Teresa's generation was consistent through out all generations.
We know that once Hysteria reached her limit that the Org sent Teresa, Rosemary, and countless other Claymores to put her down. It does not seem that the Org had that same response for Isley. It is possible that there were stronger no.1s, but they simply never made it due to better regulation of Claymores.
As for the org not immediately filling the no.1 spot with Audrey that could potentially be a sign of the Organizations collapse rather than protocol or communication limits. Dae seemed to imply that the org was teetering on collapse even before Miria arrived or the ZAOs awakened. I doubt he was the only MiB with that opinion. Adjusting the rankings in the face of a crisis (Rogue Warriors, Alicia/Beth dead, and creatures beyond AOs walking around, and terrible replacements), was probably the last thing on their minds.
Furthermore, looking at the minimores that Raki saved, they seemed to only have little children and no teens, etc. The org has a huge gap to fill in terms of age and power with the next generation. They would be fielding children Miata's age as replacements potentially. That does not bold well when you know something greater than an Abysmal is lurking out there.
Again, I know I only got part of discussion, but this is one of those areas of the story that appear intentionally vague.
Last edited by Nixl; July 12, 2012 at 12:08 PM.