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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
I think this would be a long epic battle. Madara has all he needs to keep the rinnengan at bay, and same goes for Madara's EMS and Wood style. I still give the edge to Madara, he really only has to make clones and Genjutsu Nagato... followed up with a sword through the chest.... I know its been said before, but that doesn't make it less true.
"Nagato is full heath/power/mobility"
Not only was Nagato's vision obstructed but he lacked mobility. Kishi even felt the need to emphasise that particular point through Kabuto http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/552/3
So your point is so flawed that your argument doesn't hold water.
---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------
I agree, the Rinnengan is haxed more then any other Dojutsu,But it isn't about the Jutsu its about the person controlling it. Madara is like a Itachi and Hashirama combined, he may not have infinite chakra(no one does but EDO) but his Hashirama cells helps him in the chakra department. I can definitely see him using every jutsu in his arsenal without being hindered.Quote:
If Madara is allowed to use Mokuton he wins hands down. The possibility of having Madara use just one Mokuton Clone to trick Nagato and land a killing blow just like he did to Tsunade is very high, and unlike the Sharingan, Nagato's Rinnegan shouldn't be able to notice the difference between Madara & his Mokuton Clone until it is too late. That, or Madara just spams the Mokuton Clones with Susanoo from the start and Nagato will be scr3w3d either way. Only thing that could be used in favor of Nagato here is that we have no idea of Madara's stamina, but I assume Madara to have a gigantic chakra pool if he was able to compete with Hashirama like it has been said.
To be fair Naruto is the master of clone tricks and he could not do what you sugest. I know Madara is obviously smarter then Naruto but i find Naruto the master when it comes to triking dudes with clones.
Even so, I cannot see him defeating Madara with Hashirama's power on his own. But the level of the battle is probably going to be too high to declare a clear-cut winner, anyway, so, I'd say it's kind of drawish, Madara barely prevailing by his vast combat experience at the end.
---------- Post added at 08:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 AM ----------
Oh, maybe then, one of his previous wielders was Madara and now that he's revived.. Makes sense, but I don't remember such a reference. Did we get any historical information about the sword?
Last edited by Hakuteiken; July 30, 2012 at 08:56 AM.
In that battle(vs Naruto/Bee/Itachi) Nagato did not have his mobility. Kabuto himself said so. Nagato in his prime was insane fast, remember when he saved Konan?
Also yes i have no idea what they where debating but Madara does not have that sword.
The only reason anyone can make this claim is because Naruto's the only one that relies on clones to such a large degree. Literally EVERY time someone used a clone against Pein it resulted in an "Oh no! I've been tricked again! By another clone no less!!!" face. From a Genin, from Kakashi (with a more complex clone) from Naruto multiple times.Originally Posted by xXan
But people have taken clones and pushed them SO much farther than Naruto I just can't give him status as King of Clones. Naruto makes clones. Anyone with KB can do that (Konohamaru comes to mind, since he's the lowest rank and yet uses it with the same finesse as Naruto). Kakashi makes clones that paralyze you upon touching them. Itachi? He makes EXPLODING clones. He even manages to turn summoned crows into a clone... which can turn BACK into crows and disorient or Genjutsu the opponent. All costing less chakra than a regular clone! Deidara? Clones made of clay that stick you to them when you attack them. Niidaime Mizukage made a clone that's a re-assembling bomb. It's more complex in make aswell (takes manipulation of surrounding weather conditions aswell as his special water).
And ofcourse Hashirama and Madara's Mokuton Bunshin, which regenerate, can take more than one hit before dying, and are able to be transformed into seeds to hide on people aswell as travel through trees and transfer information over long distances. Hell, even Killerbee managed to create a clone out of a chunk of his tentacle. It was even strong enough to last for a pretty good while. And while Sasuke can't use clones, he used his Genjutsu to act as a Kage Bunshin for him when fighting Deidara. Bait and switch. Make him think the real Sasuke died, then he attacks from his blind side.
Now I know what you're thinking: "Naruto uses regular clones in creative ways! They just use a clone with a special ability, it's not the same!" Well, those creative actions ALL still come down to a simple bait and switch, which every single clone user has used aswell. Distraction and counterattack. All of these other characters do the same thing, with added effects from their clones. So yeah, I'm giving title of "King of Clones" to the ninja with more versatile clones: Hashirama (Madara claimed that he was the only one to ever be able to see through Hashirama's clones. That means that EVERYONE fell for his clones back then. Nowadays plenty of people have manhandled Naruto's clones. Can't say the same about Hashirama). Next would be Itachi. He has two different types of clones, one of them requires less chakra, and has multiple applications outside of "look like Itachi".
TL;DR: Literally everyone that has access to clones uses them the same god damn way, even if their clone has a different and unique ability. Naruto is not a special snowflake.
Why would you even use Kona in your example? Its not like it was done when Nagato was fighting another ninja right? When Nagato would have NO WAY OF NOTIICING IT. Sasuke, Itachi OR ANYBODY ELSE would have no way of knowing that Kona was not the real one.
Also what Kakashi did was to change himself with a clone, to actualy trick Nagato would mean to land a blow on him and do some damage because of that clone. Creating a clone so the enemy does not know who is the Original is no feat of anything. Its imposible to know that.
Seriously some people have used clones in this manga with other variations and what not but Naruto is the master when it comes to them (Madara can be put here to). Nagato was always showed able to counter Naruto clones when Naruto tried to get the jump on him with them. Look at Kakuzu how he got tricked, not that is tricked (and don't give me plot no jutsu). Yes i am aware that even Itachi was tricked by 1 Kakashi clone and made him cast a genjutsu on it. But the only one to show winning fights with clones is Naruto, its his unique thing.
Also how Hashirama used them and what happened is up for debate. How did he used them? Just creating 1 more so the enemy does not know who is who is no feat... Also that would apply perfecly to what Madara said. You have nothign to show me with Hashirama using complex tactics and what not with clones. How about Madara? His tactics was create 25 of them, use Susano and overpower the Kages....
Naruto can do jutsus in creative ways with them, can create a TON OF IT (not skill but he can), he can change them to make them look like other crep (like rocks) can use them to get around SM problem, can use them to fight ALL OVER THE BATTLEFIELD ON ABOVE KAGE LEVEL, he can use clones as he is using RM to figure out where the pipes are in bijus, he can use them to trick people as smart as Kakuzu, he can use them to train like no other (no skill feat but its there) etc, etc, etc... Face it NOBODY in this entire manga can do what Naruto does with clones on HIS level. He is the master when it come to clones.
Last edited by xXan; August 01, 2012 at 01:07 AM.
ofc nagato wins ......
isnt it simple ?madara with no rinnegan means he will only have normal sized susanoo that nagato can absorb , and then will have to use mokuton + fire /whatever other elements he has/ jutsus
because madara so far relied on his rinnegan + giant susanoo and thus HE DID NOT SHOW US HIS MS TECHNIQUES and this is the reason he loses this fight because he basically has a normal sharingan with the restrictions the op gave him
he might even lose to some other high level ninjas like itachi , jman....but ofc this is entirely because of the limitations , naruto would lose to konohamaru if he has only access to sexy no jutsu
It was said Hashirama fought against the perfect Susanoo, thus its an MS or EMS Technique, not Rinnegan.
hide a wood clone
use nagato's stupidity and let him try and absorb the susanoo while spamming amaterasu
clone comes from the underground and either genjutsu nagato or just cut him down with the susanoo sword like it happened with tsunade
Madara will win. He has Mokuton, EMS, and intelligence. Nagato only has Rinnegan, which won't help him if he doesn't have his Paths as he'll get easily tricked and killed. If he gets killed, he's killed, nothing brings him back to life as that's his real body.
Madara can easily trick Nagato with kage bunshin or overwhelm him with numbers. Susano'o, etc. Chibaku Tensei won't help much because Madara can use his Susano'o's attack to overpower the black ball. Madara's basically nearly undamagable.
fight would be more balanced if :
1- nagato had 6paths instead
2- nagato had someone to help him (this is freaking madara...) maybe itachi or minato because he needs someone that can think of a solution on the spot . and we all know nagato was as dumb as a rock .i mean what kind of intelligent ninja gets tricked by naruto...
still , this is the rinnegan and this is nagato , not tobi who seem to only know 2 rinnegan tricks ...
this is offtopic but i'm sure not even madara can use the rinnegan better than nagato (remember, he awakened it shortly before death) nagato is the only ninja after the rikkudo senin to push the rinnegan to its limits
also gedo mazo = forfeit your fight or die .