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Thread: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

  1. #46
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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    I think Nagato has a higher chance of winning based on his Rinnegan to render every chakra based attack useless. That means Susanoo, Amaterasu, Mokuton, Fire jutsus, Tuijustu, Ninjutsu and wow pretty much everything Madara has displayed through EMS(excluding genjutsu). Rinnegan is truly OP O_O. And considering the Fact that Rinnegan is the father of all justus, the improved Sharingan, I have my doubts on genjustu being that effective.

    Then again it's not always about who has more power but how a power is used but nevertheless I'll still say Nagato's chances are much bigger ^_^
    It's funny how all of a sudden Rinnengan makes everything useless against evryone BUT Naruto, or thats the way you see it.
    I think this would be a long epic battle. Madara has all he needs to keep the rinnengan at bay, and same goes for Madara's EMS and Wood style. I still give the edge to Madara, he really only has to make clones and Genjutsu Nagato... followed up with a sword through the chest.... I know its been said before, but that doesn't make it less true.

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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    What obstructed vision? You mean that cloud of dust that any capable shinobi can create by simply smashing the ground? Heck, that dust cloud certainly didn't stop Itachi from stabbing him in the chest. Frankly, despite all of Nagato's Rinnegan powers, the guy has been a complete noob when it comes to actual combat skills. He has been consistently troubled by lesser opponents from Kakashi to even Konohamaru. He was even somewhat reluctant to face Jiraiya in a direct head on confrontation. Someone as skilled and experienced as Madara would surely find ways to take advantage of his inept combat skills especially since he's probably more knowledgeable about the Rinnegan than Nagato himself. Madara can simply shoot a Katon with shurikens hidden in it and it would stab Nagato right in the head while he's busy trying to absorb the ninjutsu. That is how crappy I think Nagato's actual skills are if you disregard his Riinnegan powers.

    Nagato also lacks an offensive jutsu capable of actually busting through Madara's Susanoo's defense, especially it's perfect form. The only thing that can remotely threaten it is CT, super ST, and maybe chakra absorption. Madara's Susanoo's magatamas needed the combined powers of Gaara's sand and Oonoki's stone Golem to stop it. That is arguably enough to blowup the CT orb and even if it doesn't, I'm not convinced that it can even hold the perfect Susanoo indefinitely. Nagato's base ST at best can only knock Susanoo back a short distance, and I doubt it can even do that as a six-tailed Naruto completely turned its power right back at Deva path. Madara's Susanoo has the power to hold up against multiple attacks from the Naruto and the Kages, so it shouldn't have any problems against base ST. The super ST can potentially harm Madara through his Susanoo, but its mostly knockback damage that won't actually cause any lethal penetrating damage. And since using super ST would leave Nagato ST-less, he is basically easy pickings. And lastly, lets just say I doubt Nagato has the time to get in close range to completely absorb Susanoo without getting killed while he is doing so.

    So with Nagato having so much difficulty to even harm Madara, I'm pretty certain Madara will be able to find an opening to kill Nagato. Madara is faster, more experienced and skilled, and have more explosive offensive jutsus. Not much of a fight if you ask me.
    You either ignored the conditions of this battle or forgotten the conditions of this battle or you never read the conditions of this battle.
    "Nagato is full heath/power/mobility"
    Not only was Nagato's vision obstructed but he lacked mobility. Kishi even felt the need to emphasise that particular point through Kabuto http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/552/3
    So your point is so flawed that your argument doesn't hold water.

    ---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke View Post
    It's funny how all of a sudden Rinnengan makes everything useless against evryone BUT Naruto, or thats the way you see it.
    I think this would be a long epic battle. Madara has all he needs to keep the rinnengan at bay, and same goes for Madara's EMS and Wood style. I still give the edge to Madara, he really only has to make clones and Genjutsu Nagato... followed up with a sword through the chest.... I know its been said before, but that doesn't make it less true.
    It doesn't really make everyone's tech useless but it's the father of HAXXX for sure. We should consider the fact that Madara doesn't have infinite Chakra and Immotal body since he's not an EDO thus his ability to produce MASS clones with Susanoo should be questioned somewhat

  3. #48
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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    Quote Quote:
    It doesn't really make everyone's tech useless but it's the father of HAXXX for sure. We should consider the fact that Madara doesn't have infinite Chakra and Immotal body since he's not an EDO thus his ability to produce MASS clones with Susanoo should be questioned somewhat
    I agree, the Rinnengan is haxed more then any other Dojutsu,But it isn't about the Jutsu its about the person controlling it. Madara is like a Itachi and Hashirama combined, he may not have infinite chakra(no one does but EDO) but his Hashirama cells helps him in the chakra department. I can definitely see him using every jutsu in his arsenal without being hindered.

  4. #49
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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    If Madara is allowed to use Mokuton he wins hands down. The possibility of having Madara use just one Mokuton Clone to trick Nagato and land a killing blow just like he did to Tsunade is very high, and unlike the Sharingan, Nagato's Rinnegan shouldn't be able to notice the difference between Madara & his Mokuton Clone until it is too late. That, or Madara just spams the Mokuton Clones with Susanoo from the start and Nagato will be scr3w3d either way. Only thing that could be used in favor of Nagato here is that we have no idea of Madara's stamina, but I assume Madara to have a gigantic chakra pool if he was able to compete with Hashirama like it has been said.

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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    @kelv015


    To be fair Naruto is the master of clone tricks and he could not do what you sugest. I know Madara is obviously smarter then Naruto but i find Naruto the master when it comes to triking dudes with clones.

  6. #51
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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    You either ignored the conditions of this battle or forgotten the conditions of this battle or you never read the conditions of this battle.
    "Nagato is full heath/power/mobility"
    Not only was Nagato's vision obstructed but he lacked mobility. Kishi even felt the need to emphasise that particular point through Kabuto http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/552/3
    So your point is so flawed that your argument doesn't hold water.
    Well, I always thought that if Nagato was to battle himself instead of Six Paths of Pain, he'd have shown a lot more power than what we saw. And Edo Nagato proved this to some degree, because without Itachi's intellect coming into play, even all three of Naruto, Bee and Itachi were struggling to keep up with him.
    Even so, I cannot see him defeating Madara with Hashirama's power on his own. But the level of the battle is probably going to be too high to declare a clear-cut winner, anyway, so, I'd say it's kind of drawish, Madara barely prevailing by his vast combat experience at the end.

    ---------- Post added at 08:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by metalia View Post
    I don't think totsuka no tsurugi can be swallowed. We saw Itachi piercing nagato after all.
    I never knew Madara's perfect Susano'o possessed Sword of Totsuka. All I knew was it was a unique item only wielded by Itachi, not Madara.
    Oh, maybe then, one of his previous wielders was Madara and now that he's revived.. Makes sense, but I don't remember such a reference. Did we get any historical information about the sword?
    Last edited by Hakuteiken; July 30, 2012 at 08:56 AM.

  7. #52
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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    @Hakuteiken

    In that battle(vs Naruto/Bee/Itachi) Nagato did not have his mobility. Kabuto himself said so. Nagato in his prime was insane fast, remember when he saved Konan?

    Also yes i have no idea what they where debating but Madara does not have that sword.

  8. #53
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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan
    To be fair Naruto is the master of clone tricks and he could not do what you sugest. I know Madara is obviously smarter then Naruto but i find Naruto the master when it comes to triking dudes with clones.
    The only reason anyone can make this claim is because Naruto's the only one that relies on clones to such a large degree. Literally EVERY time someone used a clone against Pein it resulted in an "Oh no! I've been tricked again! By another clone no less!!!" face. From a Genin, from Kakashi (with a more complex clone) from Naruto multiple times.

    But people have taken clones and pushed them SO much farther than Naruto I just can't give him status as King of Clones. Naruto makes clones. Anyone with KB can do that (Konohamaru comes to mind, since he's the lowest rank and yet uses it with the same finesse as Naruto). Kakashi makes clones that paralyze you upon touching them. Itachi? He makes EXPLODING clones. He even manages to turn summoned crows into a clone... which can turn BACK into crows and disorient or Genjutsu the opponent. All costing less chakra than a regular clone! Deidara? Clones made of clay that stick you to them when you attack them. Niidaime Mizukage made a clone that's a re-assembling bomb. It's more complex in make aswell (takes manipulation of surrounding weather conditions aswell as his special water).

    And ofcourse Hashirama and Madara's Mokuton Bunshin, which regenerate, can take more than one hit before dying, and are able to be transformed into seeds to hide on people aswell as travel through trees and transfer information over long distances. Hell, even Killerbee managed to create a clone out of a chunk of his tentacle. It was even strong enough to last for a pretty good while. And while Sasuke can't use clones, he used his Genjutsu to act as a Kage Bunshin for him when fighting Deidara. Bait and switch. Make him think the real Sasuke died, then he attacks from his blind side.

    Now I know what you're thinking: "Naruto uses regular clones in creative ways! They just use a clone with a special ability, it's not the same!" Well, those creative actions ALL still come down to a simple bait and switch, which every single clone user has used aswell. Distraction and counterattack. All of these other characters do the same thing, with added effects from their clones. So yeah, I'm giving title of "King of Clones" to the ninja with more versatile clones: Hashirama (Madara claimed that he was the only one to ever be able to see through Hashirama's clones. That means that EVERYONE fell for his clones back then. Nowadays plenty of people have manhandled Naruto's clones. Can't say the same about Hashirama). Next would be Itachi. He has two different types of clones, one of them requires less chakra, and has multiple applications outside of "look like Itachi".

    TL;DR: Literally everyone that has access to clones uses them the same god damn way, even if their clone has a different and unique ability. Naruto is not a special snowflake.

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  10. #54
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    @ninjabot

    Why would you even use Kona in your example? Its not like it was done when Nagato was fighting another ninja right? When Nagato would have NO WAY OF NOTIICING IT. Sasuke, Itachi OR ANYBODY ELSE would have no way of knowing that Kona was not the real one.
    Also what Kakashi did was to change himself with a clone, to actualy trick Nagato would mean to land a blow on him and do some damage because of that clone. Creating a clone so the enemy does not know who is the Original is no feat of anything. Its imposible to know that.

    Seriously some people have used clones in this manga with other variations and what not but Naruto is the master when it comes to them (Madara can be put here to). Nagato was always showed able to counter Naruto clones when Naruto tried to get the jump on him with them. Look at Kakuzu how he got tricked, not that is tricked (and don't give me plot no jutsu). Yes i am aware that even Itachi was tricked by 1 Kakashi clone and made him cast a genjutsu on it. But the only one to show winning fights with clones is Naruto, its his unique thing.

    Also how Hashirama used them and what happened is up for debate. How did he used them? Just creating 1 more so the enemy does not know who is who is no feat... Also that would apply perfecly to what Madara said. You have nothign to show me with Hashirama using complex tactics and what not with clones. How about Madara? His tactics was create 25 of them, use Susano and overpower the Kages....

    Naruto can do jutsus in creative ways with them, can create a TON OF IT (not skill but he can), he can change them to make them look like other crep (like rocks) can use them to get around SM problem, can use them to fight ALL OVER THE BATTLEFIELD ON ABOVE KAGE LEVEL, he can use clones as he is using RM to figure out where the pipes are in bijus, he can use them to trick people as smart as Kakuzu, he can use them to train like no other (no skill feat but its there) etc, etc, etc... Face it NOBODY in this entire manga can do what Naruto does with clones on HIS level. He is the master when it come to clones.
    Last edited by xXan; August 01, 2012 at 01:07 AM.

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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    ofc nagato wins ......
    isnt it simple ?madara with no rinnegan means he will only have normal sized susanoo that nagato can absorb , and then will have to use mokuton + fire /whatever other elements he has/ jutsus
    because madara so far relied on his rinnegan + giant susanoo and thus HE DID NOT SHOW US HIS MS TECHNIQUES and this is the reason he loses this fight because he basically has a normal sharingan with the restrictions the op gave him


    he might even lose to some other high level ninjas like itachi , jman....but ofc this is entirely because of the limitations , naruto would lose to konohamaru if he has only access to sexy no jutsu
    THE UCHIHA LOGIC:
    "brother follows hiw on path? destroy konoha " uchiha sasuke
    "the village wants you not to interfere with politics? coup-d'etat" uchiha fugaku
    "coup-d'etat on the way? obliterate entire clan" uchiha itachi
    "clan wants to make peace? destroy everyone everywhere" uchiha madara
    "10 years old crush dead?infinite tsukyumi" uchiha obito



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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    It was said Hashirama fought against the perfect Susanoo, thus its an MS or EMS Technique, not Rinnegan.
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

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    He was once a very charismatic, kind, special and inspiring person. LnDRash was a premium brand, now this brand is called LnDTRash!

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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    simple

    hide a wood clone

    use nagato's stupidity and let him try and absorb the susanoo while spamming amaterasu

    clone comes from the underground and either genjutsu nagato or just cut him down with the susanoo sword like it happened with tsunade

    good bye

  14. #58
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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    Madara will win. He has Mokuton, EMS, and intelligence. Nagato only has Rinnegan, which won't help him if he doesn't have his Paths as he'll get easily tricked and killed. If he gets killed, he's killed, nothing brings him back to life as that's his real body.

    Madara can easily trick Nagato with kage bunshin or overwhelm him with numbers. Susano'o, etc. Chibaku Tensei won't help much because Madara can use his Susano'o's attack to overpower the black ball. Madara's basically nearly undamagable.

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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    fight would be more balanced if :
    1- nagato had 6paths instead
    2- nagato had someone to help him (this is freaking madara...) maybe itachi or minato because he needs someone that can think of a solution on the spot . and we all know nagato was as dumb as a rock .i mean what kind of intelligent ninja gets tricked by naruto...


    still , this is the rinnegan and this is nagato , not tobi who seem to only know 2 rinnegan tricks ...
    this is offtopic but i'm sure not even madara can use the rinnegan better than nagato (remember, he awakened it shortly before death) nagato is the only ninja after the rikkudo senin to push the rinnegan to its limits
    also gedo mazo = forfeit your fight or die .
    THE UCHIHA LOGIC:
    "brother follows hiw on path? destroy konoha " uchiha sasuke
    "the village wants you not to interfere with politics? coup-d'etat" uchiha fugaku
    "coup-d'etat on the way? obliterate entire clan" uchiha itachi
    "clan wants to make peace? destroy everyone everywhere" uchiha madara
    "10 years old crush dead?infinite tsukyumi" uchiha obito



  16. #60
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NinjaStar's Avatar
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    Re: Nagato VS Madara (no Rinnengan)

    Quote Originally Posted by tousendrinksbleach View Post
    fight would be more balanced if :
    1- nagato had 6paths instead
    2- nagato had someone to help him (this is freaking madara...) maybe itachi or minato because he needs someone that can think of a solution on the spot . and we all know nagato was as dumb as a rock .i mean what kind of intelligent ninja gets tricked by naruto...


    still , this is the rinnegan and this is nagato , not tobi who seem to only know 2 rinnegan tricks ...
    this is offtopic but i'm sure not even madara can use the rinnegan better than nagato (remember, he awakened it shortly before death) nagato is the only ninja after the rikkudo senin to push the rinnegan to its limits
    also gedo mazo = forfeit your fight or die .
    Go re-read the entire manga. Its filled with Ninja getting tricked by him.

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