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Thread: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

  1. #31
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    @Uchiha_Blood

    Quote Quote:
    He was a robot, so?
    He had endurance, so? It doesn't change the fact that 2 Rasengans in Sage Mode didn't blow up anything.
    Also good goind by using that example, I do believe ( and the manga never suggested otherwise ) that Yondaime's rasengan to be comparable to Naruto's, not Naruto's one being 10 times stronger.
    I explained to you there. Kishi could show him blasted to pieces with no concerned to kids and what not. Think of Samurai Jack and why he is always slicing robot people.

    Normal mode rasengan yes its on Minato's level but SM rasengan is another story. Anything that has senjutsu chakra is powered to a new level, ANYTHING.

    Quote Quote:
    I didin't really understand, you're saying that without Hiraishin Yondaime is dead.
    So?
    He has Hiraishin, he dodged A with Hiraishin, so I really don't see how that means anything. Also, just reminding you, A and the Third's speed also derived from a jutsu, so saying that Yondaime was saved only because of Hiraishin is like saying that the Third is fast only because of Raiton Armour.
    True, but not relevant, nor useful in a debate.
    Also if he wasn't able to react, then why he wasn't hit?
    The thing is you are ignoring HOW he was able to react... If Sasuke had ST in part 1 vs Lee he could react to... That is the diference... Then considering Minato only was able to react because of ST Bee and Deidara are in some deep shit as they are not reacting to it. It is how that said feat was achived and the fact that he did not really reacted, well he did but only because de did not need to move his body, its the same as Lee and Sasuke in part 1. Did Sasuke react to Lee because he could follow him with his mind/eyes?

    Quote Quote:
    Same Naruto that, in chakra mode, not only wasn't able to be faster than the Third, but that clearly compared the two.
    As for Raikage saying that, well duh, his father died when he was young, how could he compare himself to a dead man?
    Look there is no reason to belive the 3'th is just as fast as the 4'th. Naruto is not as faster in normal mode as Minato is in normal mode with shunshin no? Naruto does not even use it..
    Minato died to but he made direct statemants to himself, Minato and Naruto.
    Read here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/541/9
    He does not state "Now that Minato AND my father bla bla". Its clear the only man faster then himself was Minato and he is DEAD. He does not even state that they where equals or that some equals existed. Bottom line is that the 3'th does not have any feats to put him up with the 4'th.

    Quote Quote:
    The battle ended as a draw, is not a matter of prospective.
    They drawed, and Hachibi was sealed, how that means the Third winning their battle? Is like saying Tobi won the battle against Yondaime, Tobi accomplished his goal, yet he was bested in combat.
    Those are two unrelated things
    He was able to beat the 8 tails to the point it was sealed. Even if he dropped he more won then made a draw. Also what goal has Tobi accomplished vs Minato? Got the Kyuubi and lost the Kyuubi. Destroyed the village? Nop... So what exacly did he got? What goal? Not that is relevant... Now a combo of 3'th and 4'th (speed, power, durability) + Tsuck on his shoulders the 8 tails has no chanse(even increasing speed by making him lighter).

    Quote Quote:
    Where does it is stated that Tsuchikage begins on top of the Third?
    Also keep in mind the distance, again.
    If it is done your way, the moment tsuchikage goes on the Third's back and uses his jutsu they are already obliterated by a Bijuudama, since I do believe Oonoki is not gifted with Instant Transmission, and required to actually activate his jutsu to make it work.

    As for Deidara, does Raikage know Kage Bushin? How does he blitzes Yondaime, Deidara and Bee at the same time?
    Or he is so fast he can go back in time and do it over and over again?
    He is going to be on the 3'th shoulders as not only do they have prep but also that is the best strategy they can get. The long ranged and extreme power of Tsuck + Raikage's durability and speed that can be boosted even more by making him light or whatever.

    Now a Bijudama takes time to build up and release... Its NOT flash dama. Even asuming Bee decides to start the fight in FULL biju mode he needs time to charge it and shoot it. Its not instant. Also Raikage can run to him and pick him up close to instantly, there is no need for Tsuck to go to him.
    I never said he can blitz Minato (ST) but he can do that to Deidara (not now with the start distance...) and perhaps Bee but defenetly not all 3 at the same time. Still imagine the 4'th made lighter by Tsuck and so on. The speed is going to be insane and the power? Well imagine a combo from the 3'th piercing move and Tsuck whatever. After closing the gap not sure if even Minato can react to that.

    Quote Quote:
    Again, so?
    Remove Raiton Armour, and Raikage is fodder at best, remove Dust Jutsus and Oonoki is a noob, remove Sage Mode and Jiraiya doesn't stand a chance, remove the Hachibi and Bee becomes a good Jounin, remove clay and Deidara is toast.
    What kind of reasonement is that?
    Again its about how he achived said feat. I am not tring to take away Minato's jutsu but he does not have the ability to move his limbs to dodge Raikage and how that would apply to the rest of his team. Not only that i don't even know if Minato can dodge Raikage that is made lighter by Tsuck... He was 1 cm before Minato's face... Not with added speed? Yeah he could die before the teleport.

    Again really reacting to Raikage would imply his body can keep up to and not only his mind and eyes and clearly his body can't physically keep up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Kirabi, without his cloak as a boost, has both kept up with a cloaked Naruto, who's as fast as Ee, and equaled Ee when preforming the Double Lariat. And why would Kirabi not be able to take it? He was able to take a charged Lariat from a cloaked Ee, and not only endure it but throw Ee back, all in his base form. With the boost granted by his own cloak, why wouldn't Kirabi be capable of doing likewise here? We've seen the secondary cloaks of the lesser Jinchuuriki endure similar attacks like Kakashi's Raikiri and taijutsu from a sixth gate Gai. He's capable of creating ink without fully transforming, and they're not only used to seal. They at the very least can act upon their own to subdue the target.
    That is not keeping up... that is intervening when those 2 are distracted with 1 another... Even suigetsu and Juugo reacted to casual speed Raikage. Again he reacted to casual speed Raikage, full charge only Naruto and Minato can avoid.
    Now that chidori like move from Raikage + Tsuck making Tsuck ligher (even MORE SPEED) + some combo would kill Bee even in his cloack... His ultimate move + tsuck would rip him in half.
    He can spit some ink but how much can he and can he do the jutsu? Why has he never used it before? It could have helped him... Well at least that is not his fighting style or perhaps they don't work like that... They where just created, run to the targets and jumped on them.. Perhaps they can't stay in that form for long and they start to go solid or whatever.

    @M3J

    Quote Quote:
    Throwing a huge summon?

    Minato's rasengan doesn't need to be in SM, it's strong enough. Minato needs enough strength that the arm goes back on itself and stabs the Raiakge.

    Minato doesn't need the special sensing abilities, his reflexes are pretty fast, and he has Hiraishin. Special sensing abilities gave Naruto the reflexes he needed to avoid Raikage's attack at the last minute and hit him with the rasengan at the right time. Minato wouldn't need that since he's pretty fast.
    Yes Naruto was able to trow that Pein summon into orbit in Konoha.

    Now you need to provide evidence that Minato can do those things... We already know from Naruto and Kabuto was SM senses can do... Its not just reflexes... Its more like special ability. You need to show me that Minato's normal reactions are so good to even compare them to something like SM senses that Kabuto and Naruto have... This is absurd.

    Now you also need to show me Minato with that level of power of SM rasengan and normal stg.... You try getting a 4 years old to move a body builders hand... See how that goes.

    We have a HUGE, absolutly HUGE gap in raw power between Minato and Naruto.

    Then we have the fact that this is Raikage with the 4'th speed that made Minato into a statue AND Tsuck making him lighter to increase his speed even more. Seriously GL tring to prove Minato can do that to this man... GL tring to prove that even NARUTO can do that to him.

    That is not just a feat of reaction times and speed. Its also a feat of raw streangh in his arm and power behind that Rasengan to push his hand all the way back into his own body. This is not just deflecting the charge a bit, its turning it COMPLETLY around...

    Quote Quote:
    If Minato's moving and knows of Raikage's speed, he may not be caught off guard. Second time, he could have reacted if he wanted to (I forgot, actually), but chose to teleport at last moment behind Bee.
    If he could react faster then when Raikage is cms from his face he sure as hell never showed it. Both times it was close to the same distance and then Minato replicated his father feat of teleporting from the same distance. There is no reason to belive Minato can do it faster. Then to belive he can do it in time to avoid a Raikage + tsuck combo to increase speed (making him lighter) and not only to instantly teleport out of the way but also MOVE HIS BODY to deviate that hand... I mean seriously there is no way in hell... He does not even has the strenght to move that hand to the level Naruto was able to... Deviate it a bit? Perhaps but there is no reason to belive he can do it on the same level Naruto was able to.

    Quote Quote:
    Couldn't he put it on the shield? The shield looks to be tangible enough, and Killerbee could take out the shield long enough for Raikage himself to be tagged.
    How exacly would anybody get close to Raikage + tsuck (on his shoulders) with the power they can generate (like raw destructive power) and speed and live? Imagine the speed... If Raikage charges at Bee with Tsuck on his shoulders at max speed and hits Bee then Bee is dead. Even asuming he has Samehada in front and his biju shield up a combo with that Chidori like move and Tsuck is going to blast the both of them to peices before the draining of the chakra is made. Bee was able to hit Samehada and Kisame before Samehada absorbed the chakra. Raikage that is going to be WAY faster is going to do way better.

    Nobody here is even going to be able to land a hit on Raikage. This is not just the 3'th. Its the 3'th with the 4'th speed + Tsuck on his shoulders...

    Also no idea if he can place it on shield but he never showed it. Not only that Raikage would notice it and just move his chakra a little to destroy the tag. Not that i see how this would help him... So he tags Raikage? Then what? Try to cut him with his KUNAI? lol...

    @Impossibility

    As i said make a general distance. Take all the fights add the numbers and then divide. We have a LOT more fights where the distance was close. Yes some do have a greater distance but not many.
    Take your examples:
    Gaara v Deidara
    That is because Gaara was flying about and fighting the entire vilalge to some level. Its a special case. Not only that you are wrong. This is where they start:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/248/8
    Notice the distance? Yes its small. The battlefield then grew bigger for obvious reasons but look at the distance.
    Naruto v Sasuke(VotE)
    Special case when Naruto was on 1 head and Sasuke on the other to symbolize something.
    Naruto v Paths of Pain
    The fight started as Pein vs Tsunade and then Naruto jumped in the middle. The real start is here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/431/1
    The distance is close enough.
    Naruto & Bee v Tobi
    I even provided you with the link. They where up in the trees but the distance is not great.

    Again use all of them and make a general starting distance. Again i am not taking 1 fight over the other. I am taking all fights and adding it up to create a general starting distance.

    Now for the other part. The old man can blast and entire island and Deidara was shiting his pants... He is not dodging that. Then we have the problem of having the 3'th Raikage with the 4'th speed + TSUCK making him LIGHTER. Nobody is even making handseals... The speed would be insane.
    Last edited by xXan; June 20, 2012 at 01:41 AM.

  2. #32
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Uchiha_Blood
    I explained to you there. Kishi could show him blasted to pieces with no concerned to kids and what not. Think of Samurai Jack and why he is always slicing robot people.

    Normal mode rasengan yes its on Minato's level but SM rasengan is another story. Anything that has senjutsu chakra is powered to a new level, ANYTHING.
    That didn't stop him to reduce Human Realm to nothing with only half face remaining when hit by FRS lol.

    We don't know if SM automatically overpower every jutsu of if Naruto can somewhat control its effects, we know that Naruto's normal Rasengans are exactly that, normal rasengans ( which, by itself, is almost a game winner even in base ).
    When he wants to inflict extensive damage he goes for Oodama, like he did against the Summons, or simply goes for two at the same time

    Quote Quote:
    The thing is you are ignoring HOW he was able to react... If Sasuke had ST in part 1 vs Lee he could react to... That is the diference... Then considering Minato only was able to react because of ST Bee and Deidara are in some deep shit as they are not reacting to it. It is how that said feat was achived and the fact that he did not really reacted, well he did but only because de did not need to move his body, its the same as Lee and Sasuke in part 1. Did Sasuke react to Lee because he could follow him with his mind/eyes?
    It isn't nearly that easy, as I explained to you, its not like "lol I got S/T imma invincible!!one!1", no, you need outstanding reflexes and mental capacity to use Hiraishin, already posted how Yondaime needs to do at least twice as much things as everyone else when dodging.
    Also Deidara would go up in the air, and base Bee was way capable of handling himself against
    A, like Rikudou King said.
    Him in a cloaked version would be way capable of handling himself, even without being as fast as the Third

    Quote Quote:
    Look there is no reason to belive the 3'th is just as fast as the 4'th. Naruto is not as faster in normal mode as Minato is in normal mode with shunshin no? Naruto does not even use it..
    Minato died to but he made direct statemants to himself, Minato and Naruto.
    Read here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/541/9
    He does not state "Now that Minato AND my father bla bla". Its clear the only man faster then himself was Minato and he is DEAD. He does not even state that they where equals or that some equals existed. Bottom line is that the 3'th does not have any feats to put him up with the 4'th.
    Naruto is pretty fast in base, again the fact that he is slow is simply fanbase assumption, but sure, he isn't as fast as Yondaime, but I really don't see how it is relevant.
    Also can we claim that the Third and A fought previously, or that A could compare their strenght/speed or whatever when the Third died when A was pretty young? No, Yondaime was A's rival. Keeping in mind as well that, being not only allies but also family, A should have no When Naruto will talk about Sasuke, will he nominate his father, or Jiraiya, as comparisons?
    I don't think so

    Quote Quote:
    He was able to beat the 8 tails to the point it was sealed. Even if he dropped he more won then made a draw. Also what goal has Tobi accomplished vs Minato? Got the Kyuubi and lost the Kyuubi. Destroyed the village? Nop... So what exacly did he got? What goal? Not that is relevant... Now a combo of 3'th and 4'th (speed, power, durability) + Tsuck on his shoulders the 8 tails has no chanse(even increasing speed by making him lighter).
    I probably didn't explain myself pretty well, sorry lol.
    What I meant to say was that accomplishing a goal is different from winning a battle, Tobi accomplished trashing Konoha, let the Uchiha take the blame for the Kyuubi attack and kill not only one of the strongest ninja in history, but a Jinchuuriki so strong that she could keep Kyuubi at bay even on death door. Yet he lost his direct battle.
    Same with the Third, they drawed, but him accomplished his goal, doesn't change the fact that in a direct battle he wasn't able to win

    Quote Quote:
    He is going to be on the 3'th shoulders as not only do they have prep but also that is the best strategy they can get. The long ranged and extreme power of Tsuck + Raikage's durability and speed that can be boosted even more by making him light or whatever.

    Now a Bijudama takes time to build up and release... Its NOT flash dama. Even asuming Bee decides to start the fight in FULL biju mode he needs time to charge it and shoot it. Its not instant. Also Raikage can run to him and pick him up close to instantly, there is no need for Tsuck to go to him.
    I never said he can blitz Minato (ST) but he can do that to Deidara (not now with the start distance...) and perhaps Bee but defenetly not all 3 at the same time. Still imagine the 4'th made lighter by Tsuck and so on. The speed is going to be insane and the power? Well imagine a combo from the 3'th piercing move and Tsuck whatever. After closing the gap not sure if even Minato can react to that.
    Never saw the OP saying that Tsuchikage starts on the Third's shoulder, if we want to give a team prep time, in all fairness one should give the other prep time too.
    Also Bee was pretty fast, as fast as Naruto creating a FRS, ok it wasn't instantaneous, but neither is the Third's speed imho.

    This combo is a pretty good and valid point, since, as I said, the Third's jutsu doesn't require him going "heavy" to do more damage, so he would be in super speed mode.
    Against a combo like that, the second team would need to buy as much time as possible to handle them, and with Bee dispatching easily of Jiraiya, it would be a 3 vs 2, with 2 long range ninjas and a guy that can easily teleport.
    Nothing says that Yondaime needs to directly attack the Third, him running around by teleporting would do the trick, with Deidara and Bee sniping from a distance

    Quote Quote:
    Again its about how he achived said feat. I am not tring to take away Minato's jutsu but he does not have the ability to move his limbs to dodge Raikage and how that would apply to the rest of his team. Not only that i don't even know if Minato can dodge Raikage that is made lighter by Tsuck... He was 1 cm before Minato's face... Not with added speed? Yeah he could die before the teleport.

    Again really reacting to Raikage would imply his body can keep up to and not only his mind and eyes and clearly his body can't physically keep up.
    Exactly, we don't know, we can't say that Yondaime can or can't on baseless assumptions, true he may not have the sheer dexerity to do it, but not every attack is at that speed, when charging apparently the Third didn't use shunshin, since he was using a stab.
    That is Yondaime's chance, neither the Third or A uses Shunshin continuosly, the moment they go for the hit they use their normal, if great, speed

  3. #33
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Yes Naruto was able to trow that Pein summon into orbit in Konoha.
    I know. What I don't know is what that has to do with this fight.

    Quote Quote:
    Now you need to provide evidence that Minato can do those things... We already know from Naruto and Kabuto was SM senses can do... Its not just reflexes... Its more like special ability. You need to show me that Minato's normal reactions are so good to even compare them to something like SM senses that Kabuto and Naruto have... This is absurd.
    Minato was able to react to Tobi sneaking up on him. I don't ever remember seeing that kind of fast reflex or speed even from Sage Mode Naruto and Kabuto. He was able to react to Naruto being thrown in the air and ran fast enough to save him. He also reacted fast enough to Raikage's fastest attack, which came out of the blue, even though he used HIraishin.

    The SM senses is what gave Naruto and Kabuto fast enough reflex, it wasn't just SM. Minato has shown he can react fast enough. In any case, he has Hiraishin, he can tag the ground or Raikage and set it up so that he Hiraishins to the right spot at the right time and slams Raikage's arm with rasengan.

    Quote Quote:
    Now you also need to show me Minato with that level of power of SM rasengan and normal stg.... You try getting a 4 years old to move a body builders hand... See how that goes.

    We have a HUGE, absolutly HUGE gap in raw power between Minato and Naruto.
    Why does he need that kind of power to hurt Raikage? Normal rasengan should do - from the looks of it there's no difference between SM rasengan and normal rasengan, and Minato's rasengan is bigger.

    The huge gap doesn't mean Minato's unable to rasengan Raikage's arm into hurting himself. I don't see why he needs tons of power or SM to do that.

    Quote Quote:
    Then we have the fact that this is Raikage with the 4'th speed that made Minato into a statue AND Tsuck making him lighter to increase his speed even more. Seriously GL tring to prove Minato can do that to this man... GL tring to prove that even NARUTO can do that to him.

    That is not just a feat of reaction times and speed. Its also a feat of raw streangh in his arm and power behind that Rasengan to push his hand all the way back into his own body. This is not just deflecting the charge a bit, its turning it COMPLETLY around...
    First time, Minato was caught offguard. He still reacted fast enough to use Hiraishin. Second time, he let Raikage charge him. For all we know, Minato let Raikage come near him the first time to set up an attack, considering how fast he went into attack mode after using Hiraishin. Hiraishin would still help Minato.

    There doesn't need to be strength in the arm, just in the rasengan to push Raikage's arm and bend it so he stabs himself.



    Quote Quote:
    If he could react faster then when Raikage is cms from his face he sure as hell never showed it. Both times it was close to the same distance and then Minato replicated his father feat of teleporting from the same distance. There is no reason to belive Minato can do it faster. Then to belive he can do it in time to avoid a Raikage + tsuck combo to increase speed (making him lighter) and not only to instantly teleport out of the way but also MOVE HIS BODY to deviate that hand... I mean seriously there is no way in hell... He does not even has the strenght to move that hand to the level Naruto was able to... Deviate it a bit? Perhaps but there is no reason to belive he can do it on the same level Naruto was able to.
    First time, he was taken off guard. And from the way he reacted, he could have planned that to surprise A and throw him off balance like what happened so A wouldn't be able to dodge Minato's follow-up attack. Second time, Minato knew A was coming, he could have reacted, but he chose to stay still and then teleport to Bee at the last second. You can't really prove he was too slow to react in this instance.

    Though if Tsuchikage does increase Raikage's speed... who knows?

    Why would that much strength be required? Minato can catch Raikage off guard before he's able to add more strength to avoid his arm being bent.


    Of course, that's depending on whether Minato finds out how Raikage got the scar. He won't be able to figure it out on his own, and I doubt there'll be time for him to talk to Bee, especially since he can't communicate with Hachibi like Naruto could.



    Quote Quote:
    How exacly would anybody get close to Raikage + tsuck (on his shoulders) with the power they can generate (like raw destructive power) and speed and live? Imagine the speed... If Raikage charges at Bee with Tsuck on his shoulders at max speed and hits Bee then Bee is dead. Even asuming he has Samehada in front and his biju shield up a combo with that Chidori like move and Tsuck is going to blast the both of them to peices before the draining of the chakra is made. Bee was able to hit Samehada and Kisame before Samehada absorbed the chakra. Raikage that is going to be WAY faster is going to do way better.
    Not necessarily, as the strength reduces if Tsuchikage increases the speed. That's what Kabuto said, and he got hit by Tsuchikage increasing his speed.

    Hiraishin also gives Minato the speed he'd need to hit Raikage's arm even with Tsuchikage speeding him up.

    Quote Quote:
    Also no idea if he can place it on shield but he never showed it. Not only that Raikage would notice it and just move his chakra a little to destroy the tag. Not that i see how this would help him... So he tags Raikage? Then what? Try to cut him with his KUNAI? lol...
    If he knows the tag is there. Minato can rasengan Raikage's arm at the right time or send attacks from enemies at him, or maybe an attack.

    From the looks of it, either Minato reacted fast enough to tag Bee, or he planned to tag A all along, despite the cloak. So who knows.

  4. #34
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    @Uchiha_Blood

    Quote Quote:
    That didn't stop him to reduce Human Realm to nothing with only half face remaining when hit by FRS lol.
    And what was it showed? Guts? Brains? Anything?

    Quote Quote:
    We don't know if SM automatically overpower every jutsu of if Naruto can somewhat control its effects, we know that Naruto's normal Rasengans are exactly that, normal rasengans ( which, by itself, is almost a game winner even in base ).
    When he wants to inflict extensive damage he goes for Oodama, like he did against the Summons, or simply goes for two at the same time
    We know that any jutsu powered by SM chakra is more poerfull. We know that your own body and senses are empowered to a new level. Its not posible for Rasengan created with SM chakra be the same as one created with normal chakra.

    Quote Quote:
    It isn't nearly that easy, as I explained to you, its not like "lol I got S/T imma invincible!!one!1", no, you need outstanding reflexes and mental capacity to use Hiraishin, already posted how Yondaime needs to do at least twice as much things as everyone else when dodging.
    Also Deidara would go up in the air, and base Bee was way capable of handling himself against
    A, like Rikudou King said.
    Him in a cloaked version would be way capable of handling himself, even without being as fast as the Third
    All you said there does not translate in Minato having the ability to move his limbs.
    What you posted there about Minato having to think twice as much is nonsense. You don't know how hard it is for him but aparently considering he does it close to instantly its not.

    Deidara can go up. The old man shoots him down with an AOE to cover and ENTIRE ISLAND.
    Bee is not going to be able to handle himself to FULL SPEED Raikage that only Naruto and Minato can dodge going his way with the ULTIMATE weapon, having his speed increased even more by Tsuck and having Tsuck using a combo at the same time.... Its 1 shoot and Bee is gone and no dodging. HE CAN'T.

    Quote Quote:
    Naruto is pretty fast in base, again the fact that he is slow is simply fanbase assumption, but sure, he isn't as fast as Yondaime, but I really don't see how it is relevant.
    Also can we claim that the Third and A fought previously, or that A could compare their strenght/speed or whatever when the Third died when A was pretty young? No, Yondaime was A's rival. Keeping in mind as well that, being not only allies but also family, A should have no When Naruto will talk about Sasuke, will he nominate his father, or Jiraiya, as comparisons?
    I don't think so
    Fanbase asyumtion? He has no feats to put him up with Sasuke even.

    No, the speed and not anything else you posted there. I am sure the villagers knew and he himself knew. He was not that young lol. He was old enough, older then Naruto.

    But i grow tired of this. The only thing i will replay here is about feats you can bring to put Raikage on the 4'th level.
    Quote Quote:
    I probably didn't explain myself pretty well, sorry lol.
    What I meant to say was that accomplishing a goal is different from winning a battle, Tobi accomplished trashing Konoha, let the Uchiha take the blame for the Kyuubi attack and kill not only one of the strongest ninja in history, but a Jinchuuriki so strong that she could keep Kyuubi at bay even on death door. Yet he lost his direct battle.
    Same with the Third, they drawed, but him accomplished his goal, doesn't change the fact that in a direct battle he wasn't able to win
    His goal was to destroy Konoha and that failed, Just some buildings going down and some ninja dead. Only fodder from what i get got (well close to).
    Tobi did not kill Minato. Minato decided to give his life to give a weapon to Naruto to stop Tobi. I really don't put that on Tobi.... Its more like Minato's belives and his trust in his kid.

    But its not really relevant, you whant to call it a draw? Fine its a draw can't say i care.

    Quote Quote:
    Never saw the OP saying that Tsuchikage starts on the Third's shoulder, if we want to give a team prep time, in all fairness one should give the other prep time too.
    Have you read the OP? THEY ALL HAVE 12h prep.

    Quote Quote:
    Also Bee was pretty fast, as fast as Naruto creating a FRS, ok it wasn't instantaneous, but neither is the Third's speed imho.
    Its not faster then Raikage running to Tsuck and grabing him or stand in front of him to provide cover. A biju blast that is not directed (an aoe like he used vs Sasuke and his team) would have its force disipated in a huge area. If its not they can run around the bullet like bomb.

    Quote Quote:
    Against a combo like that, the second team would need to buy as much time as possible to handle them, and with Bee dispatching easily of Jiraiya, it would be a 3 vs 2, with 2 long range ninjas and a guy that can easily teleport.
    Nothing says that Yondaime needs to directly attack the Third, him running around by teleporting would do the trick, with Deidara and Bee sniping from a distance
    I don't see how Bee can do anything with Raikage going his way after Deidara get's blasted in 1 shoot. Minato would need to pull some serious teleporting to even keep them alive. Nobody can stand still with Raikage running like a nut with that insane speed.

    Quote Quote:
    Exactly, we don't know, we can't say that Yondaime can or can't on baseless assumptions, true he may not have the sheer dexerity to do it, but not every attack is at that speed, when charging apparently the Third didn't use shunshin, since he was using a stab.
    That is Yondaime's chance, neither the Third or A uses Shunshin continuosly, the moment they go for the hit they use their normal, if great, speed
    Before it get's to Raikage slowing down is probably already to late as 1 or 2 people are down. Not only that i don't see how the are putting Raikage down. Biju blasts are not going to hit him.
    You use shunshin with stab, its like Raikiri or Chidori, you whant to go as fast as possible.

    @M3J

    Quote Quote:
    I know. What I don't know is what that has to do with this fight.
    Emm because when you try to redirect an object force is a factor??!?!?!

    Quote Quote:
    Minato was able to react to Tobi sneaking up on him. I don't ever remember seeing that kind of fast reflex or speed even from Sage Mode Naruto and Kabuto. He was able to react to Naruto being thrown in the air and ran fast enough to save him. He also reacted fast enough to Raikage's fastest attack, which came out of the blue, even though he used HIraishin.
    He sensed Tobi and turned back... Naruto was meant to be grabed... It was planed.
    Kabuto was able to dodge that arrow that left Sasuke Oo on how it is possible....
    The first example is the only 1 to apply somewhat but you can't compare TOBI with RAIKGE at full SPEED powered up by Tsuck...

    Quote Quote:
    The SM senses is what gave Naruto and Kabuto fast enough reflex, it wasn't just SM. Minato has shown he can react fast enough. In any case, he has Hiraishin, he can tag the ground or Raikage and set it up so that he Hiraishins to the right spot at the right time and slams Raikage's arm with rasengan.
    He reacted by instantly moving out of the way. He DID NOT display the ability to physicaly move his body... No ST and he get's killed, ie is not dodging Raikage at full speed with no ST to do the hand trick.

    Quote Quote:
    Why does he need that kind of power to hurt Raikage? Normal rasengan should do - from the looks of it there's no difference between SM rasengan and normal rasengan, and Minato's rasengan is bigger.
    Hurt? You don't hurt Raikage with Rasengan.. Naruto's stoped on his arm doing no damage. 1 rasengan is created with SENJUTSU CHAKRA and the other is not. I hope i don't need to explain what senjutsu chakra does to jutsus no?

    Quote Quote:
    The huge gap doesn't mean Minato's unable to rasengan Raikage's arm into hurting himself. I don't see why he needs tons of power or SM to do that.
    Because of the speed and power Raikage has? He would need to overpower his arm completly to turn it around complertly.

    Quote Quote:
    First time, Minato was caught offguard. He still reacted fast enough to use Hiraishin. Second time, he let Raikage charge him. For all we know, Minato let Raikage come near him the first time to set up an attack, considering how fast he went into attack mode after using Hiraishin. Hiraishin would still help Minato.
    Do you have scans of him doing it? I have scans of Minato NOT doing it and Naruto replicating his father feat the same way... I am sure Naruto also wanted to form a tactic by alowing Raikage that close?
    Again evidence that he can do it faster? Don't care for perhaps.
    Also the attack mode was possible as Raikage came to a stop or close to after Minato disapeard from his face. There is no way Bee can grow some 10m of tentacles before Raikage at full speed can move 1m...
    I really don't care when people are stating that Minato can probably do that and this when one has no evidence of it. I don't care of perhaps... We all like Minato but let's use what he showed...
    Quote Quote:
    There doesn't need to be strength in the arm, just in the rasengan to push Raikage's arm and bend it so he stabs himself.
    And what is pushing on the Rasengan? Hmmm? Not the arm?

    Quote Quote:
    You can't really prove he was too slow to react in this instance.
    Then its a good thing i don't need to prove right? You need to prove that he can...

    Quote Quote:
    Though if Tsuchikage does increase Raikage's speed... who knows?
    Considering the distance and when Minato teleported out he probably can't...

    Quote Quote:
    Why would that much strength be required? Minato can catch Raikage off guard before he's able to add more strength to avoid his arm being bent.
    Then why did Naruto not use only his hands to push it away and decided he needs the extra power from Rasengan when he can put an animal into orbit?
    You aparently don't get as they don't just need to move his arm.. Then need to completly turn it AROUND.

    Also how the bloody hell would Minato dodge Raikage at that speed with no ST? He can't use ST as he needs to stay there to do this move? Or are you telling me Minato is as fast or close to Raikage at full speed with no ST? Carefull how you answer this....

    Quote Quote:
    Of course, that's depending on whether Minato finds out how Raikage got the scar. He won't be able to figure it out on his own, and I doubt there'll be time for him to talk to Bee, especially since he can't communicate with Hachibi like Naruto could.
    Not really relevant as he can't do it. He would need to do it to someone WAY faster then the person Naruto was able to... Then he is missing SM senses and stg.

    Quote Quote:
    Not necessarily, as the strength reduces if Tsuchikage increases the speed. That's what Kabuto said, and he got hit by Tsuchikage increasing his speed.
    What? I don't get it? How making him faster would also decrease Raikage strengh( in his arm)?
    Quote Quote:
    Hiraishin also gives Minato the speed he'd need to hit Raikage's arm even with Tsuchikage speeding him up.
    How in the world would ST help him do it? ST does not make his joints move faster? Can you elaborate? keep in mind that 1 need to w8 for the very last second, Naruto needed SM jsut for that, so he has the senses to figure out when is the last second so he can swing or Raikage would just counter it... You can't just hit his arm at any time... its pointless.

    Quote Quote:
    If he knows the tag is there. Minato can rasengan Raikage's arm at the right time or send attacks from enemies at him, or maybe an attack.
    How could anybody from the other team get in close to Raikage including Minato? Poping up next to him is death.... The only way he could do it is from the blindspot... Now considering the OP states they know what the others can do this is not going to be possible.
    You also do understand that he needs to do when Raikage actualy forms that move? Its not like he keeps it active non stop.


    Quote Quote:
    From the looks of it, either Minato reacted fast enough to tag Bee, or he planned to tag A all along, despite the cloak. So who knows.
    Its not evidence that he can... Still not that it matters as poping next to Raikage would be a horible idea... At best he could try it with a clone (op rules) but i don't see them moving hands faster then Raikage at that speed can counter. Again only blind spot would work on him.
    Last edited by xXan; June 20, 2012 at 04:24 AM.

  5. #35
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Uchiha_Blood
    And what was it showed? Guts? Brains? Anything?
    Kabuto was pretty much screwed by the Rasengan and it still showed, just saying. Guts and brains were never displayed regardless of a fatal injury, only blood, and yet we didn't even see it with Animal Realm

    Quote Quote:
    We know that any jutsu powered by SM chakra is more poerfull. We know that your own body and senses are empowered to a new level. Its not posible for Rasengan created with SM chakra be the same as one created with normal chakra.
    True, what we don't know is how much the jutsu is powered

    Quote Quote:
    All you said there does not translate in Minato having the ability to move his limbs.
    What you posted there about Minato having to think twice as much is nonsense. You don't know how hard it is for him but aparently considering he does it close to instantly its not.
    Considering he can reappear at will while moving then yes, you can see how it is relevant

    Quote Quote:
    Deidara can go up. The old man shoots him down with an AOE to cover and ENTIRE ISLAND.
    Bee is not going to be able to handle himself to FULL SPEED Raikage that only Naruto and Minato can dodge going his way with the ULTIMATE weapon, having his speed increased even more by Tsuck and having Tsuck using a combo at the same time.... Its 1 shoot and Bee is gone and no dodging. HE CAN'T.
    Killing everyone except himself, Bee and possibly an Hiraishined Yondaime in the process, after which he would be bombarded by a Bijuudama, losing.
    Also again, it is solely your opinion that Bee can't dodge the Third, as it stands only Level2 was faster than Bee, and it was his base mode, no cloak nor V2

    Quote Quote:
    Fanbase asyumtion? He has no feats to put him up with Sasuke even.
    When he saved Sakura from Sasuke he was pretty fast himself, since he traveled a huge distance in an instant

    Quote Quote:
    His goal was to destroy Konoha and that failed, Just some buildings going down and some ninja dead. Only fodder from what i get got (well close to).
    Tobi did not kill Minato. Minato decided to give his life to give a weapon to Naruto to stop Tobi. I really don't put that on Tobi.... Its more like Minato's belives and his trust in his kid.
    His goal was to blame the Uchihas while obtaining Kyuubi and destroying Konoha, he blamed the Uchiha, he lost Kyuubi and he severely weakened Konoha, robbing it of one of his strongest kage and a special Uzumaki jinchuuriki.

    Quote Quote:
    Have you read the OP? THEY ALL HAVE 12h prep.
    So? They can plan a strategy.
    If it goes like you say, then Bee would start in Bijuu mode, Deidara would whip out C4 and Yondaime would scatter Hiraishin marks in the entire battlefield. The fight starts, Deidara uses C4, Bee uses Bijuudama, gg.
    I doubt Dust Jutsus can destroy a Bijuudama, I doubt Raikage can travel 1 km in a second, I doubt Raikage or anyone can dodge a mountain buster in a second. If the topic states that they don't do a thing, they simply don't.

    Quote Quote:
    Its not faster then Raikage running to Tsuck and grabing him or stand in front of him to provide cover. A biju blast that is not directed (an aoe like he used vs Sasuke and his team) would have its force disipated in a huge area. If its not they can run around the bullet like bomb.
    yes, Bijuudama is so slow even a 7 gated Gai bared no false hope to avoid it

    Quote Quote:
    I don't see how Bee can do anything with Raikage going his way after Deidara get's blasted in 1 shoot. Minato would need to pull some serious teleporting to even keep them alive. Nobody can stand still with Raikage running like a nut with that insane speed.
    Raikage can fly, huh

  6. #36
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    @Uchiha_Blood

    Quote Quote:
    Kabuto was pretty much screwed by the Rasengan and it still showed, just saying. Guts and brains were never displayed regardless of a fatal injury, only blood, and yet we didn't even see it with Animal Realm
    That was way back in part 1... Back then the manga had a darker tone.

    Ok let's look at things like this.

    Robot Pein has better durability and was ripped to pieces by 1 Rasengan.
    Summoning Pein has worse durability and was NOT ripped to pieces by 2 Rasengans. So double the force and less durability.

    You try explaining that.

    Quote Quote:
    True, what we don't know is how much the jutsu is powered
    Its still above Minato's. It adds up. Physical stg + rasengan stg...

    Quote Quote:
    Considering he can reappear at will while moving then yes, you can see how it is relevant
    You lost me how does the above apply to what i stated and how does reappearing makes what relevant?

    Quote Quote:
    Killing everyone except himself, Bee and possibly an Hiraishined Yondaime in the process, after which he would be bombarded by a Bijuudama, losing.
    Also again, it is solely your opinion that Bee can't dodge the Third, as it stands only Level2 was faster than Bee, and it was his base mode, no cloak nor V2
    Not true. He was not alone when he tried using that vs Deidara. The only problem was that the island would get hit to.

    You can beat Raikage would also survive AT LEST considering Tsuck helper right next to him would not have died and Tsuck was rdy to blast crep with that dude around.

    A full charge from Raikage at max speed can't be dodged by Bee, only Naruto and Minato could do that. Then add to this Raikage getting more speede from Tsuck and yes he is not going to dodge it. Casual speed is not relevant when he can charge and 1 shoot him at max speed.

    Quote Quote:
    When he saved Sakura from Sasuke he was pretty fast himself, since he traveled a huge distance in an instant
    You don't have his starting point. He was also never stated to be wow fast compared to Sasuke. He is not fast in base mode compared to the "fast" people. He is no fodder but not fast like in fast.

    Quote Quote:
    His goal was to blame the Uchihas while obtaining Kyuubi and destroying Konoha, he blamed the Uchiha, he lost Kyuubi and he severely weakened Konoha, robbing it of one of his strongest kage and a special Uzumaki jinchuuriki.
    Blaming the Uchiha was never confirmed. It just looked like he wanted to blow them all away, blaming them it was probably just a happy outcome for Tobi considering he failed.

    Now killing Kushian was also not his goal. Konoha was also only weakend because of Minato's actions. He could be well and dry if so he would have chosen but yes the Kyuubi would be lost.

    His confirmed goals where:
    1-Get Kyuubi.
    2-Destroy Konoha.

    He failed them both. All the other things where not his goals but they where the best he could got considering he failed his objectives.

    Quote Quote:
    So? They can plan a strategy.
    If it goes like you say, then Bee would start in Bijuu mode, Deidara would whip out C4 and Yondaime would scatter Hiraishin marks in the entire battlefield. The fight starts, Deidara uses C4, Bee uses Bijuudama, gg.
    I doubt Dust Jutsus can destroy a Bijuudama, I doubt Raikage can travel 1 km in a second, I doubt Raikage or anyone can dodge a mountain buster in a second. If the topic states that they don't do a thing, they simply don't.
    So? So they can start as i said... That was the point.

    Again before Bee can charge up and release the blast Raikage is going to be right next to them.. Also remember its like a projectile that you can dodge... Just move around it and go up the watterfall and hit them. A biju blast is not going to hit him...
    C4 would also not work on Tsuck and Raikage as they would be behind a raiton shield remember? Not only that Deidara is probably going to kill his own team with it considering its just small bones moved by air... The others could get some by mistake to.
    Now you can be sure a charge blast takes more then 1 second and you can also be damn sure the distance to the top of the waterfall is not 1 km...

    Quote Quote:
    yes, Bijuudama is so slow even a 7 gated Gai bared no false hope to avoid it
    I hope you understand there is a diference from avoiding the projectile and avoiding the blast itself no? Then you can't even compare 7 gates Gai to Raikage at max speed with Tsuck increasing it. As long as he get;s close to Bee before it blows up its ok.

    Quote Quote:
    Raikage can fly, huh
    Sure he can, Tsuck is there .... Now what can he do hmm? Oh right make himself and other people fly AND FLY FAST, very fast. Then he can also blast islands to pieces...

  7. #37
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Uchiha_Blood

    That was way back in part 1... Back then the manga had a darker tone.

    Ok let's look at things like this.

    Robot Pein has better durability and was ripped to pieces by 1 Rasengan.
    Summoning Pein has worse durability and was NOT ripped to pieces by 2 Rasengans. So double the force and less durability.

    You try explaining that.
    Shame that against Asura Realm he had all the momentum of his jump together with his massive arm power

    Quote Quote:
    Its still above Minato's. It adds up. Physical stg + rasengan stg...
    I doubt a Rasengan hasn't the strenght to redirect an arm

    Quote Quote:
    You lost me how does the above apply to what i stated and how does reappearing makes what relevant?
    Simple, if Yondaime can move in-teleporting ( which he can do, as he reappers always in a different position in which disappears ) then the whole "can't move" argument becomes pointless

    Quote Quote:
    Not true. He was not alone when he tried using that vs Deidara. The only problem was that the island would get hit to.
    His nephew was behind him

    Quote Quote:
    You can beat Raikage would also survive AT LEST considering Tsuck helper right next to him would not have died and Tsuck was rdy to blast crep with that dude around.
    So Tsuchikage would constantly make Raikage lighter while using Dust jutsus.
    Yeah, he can totally use Dust justus one-handed and during another jutsu, he didn't do it against Madara then why?

    Quote Quote:
    A full charge from Raikage at max speed can't be dodged by Bee, only Naruto and Minato could do that. Then add to this Raikage getting more speede from Tsuck and yes he is not going to dodge it. Casual speed is not relevant when he can charge and 1 shoot him at max speed.
    Why?
    Bee has the speed and the reflexes, why can't he dodge?

    Quote Quote:
    You don't have his starting point. He was also never stated to be wow fast compared to Sasuke. He is not fast in base mode compared to the "fast" people. He is no fodder but not fast like in fast.
    I still place him as fast an any elite Jounin out there, if not more

    Quote Quote:
    Blaming the Uchiha was never confirmed. It just looked like he wanted to blow them all away, blaming them it was probably just a happy outcome for Tobi considering he failed.

    Now killing Kushian was also not his goal. Konoha was also only weakend because of Minato's actions. He could be well and dry if so he would have chosen but yes the Kyuubi would be lost.

    His confirmed goals where:
    1-Get Kyuubi.
    2-Destroy Konoha.

    He failed them both. All the other things where not his goals but they where the best he could got considering he failed his objectives.
    I too would fail like Tobi if with him failing he achieves almost everything he wanted to in case he won, imagine the war, hell the whole series with Kushina and Yondaime to support Konoha and Naruto

    Quote Quote:
    So? So they can start as i said... That was the point.

    Again before Bee can charge up and release the blast Raikage is going to be right next to them.. Also remember its like a projectile that you can dodge... Just move around it and go up the watterfall and hit them. A biju blast is not going to hit him...
    C4 would also not work on Tsuck and Raikage as they would be behind a raiton shield remember? Not only that Deidara is probably going to kill his own team with it considering its just small bones moved by air... The others could get some by mistake to.
    Now you can be sure a charge blast takes more then 1 second and you can also be damn sure the distance to the top of the waterfall is not 1 km...
    But it isn't neither 10 meters, and A traveled at max speed at least that much.
    Adding Tsuchikage he would double his speed maximum ( I'm being overly generous), it would be 20m. The statues are way bigger than that. So I'm afraid Raikage will not blitz a thing, Tsuchikage or not

    Quote Quote:
    I hope you understand there is a diference from avoiding the projectile and avoiding the blast itself no? Then you can't even compare 7 gates Gai to Raikage at max speed with Tsuck increasing it. As long as he get;s close to Bee before it blows up its ok.
    Why I can't compare someone who is among the fastest character in the series even without gates with an ability that multiplies his own strenght tenfolds to someone who is using just a jutsu?

    Quote Quote:
    Sure he can, Tsuck is there .... Now what can he do hmm? Oh right make himself and other people fly AND FLY FAST, very fast. Then he can also blast islands to pieces...
    Akatsuchi was way slower than Oonoki when he flew, so no, Tsuchikage can't make ppl fly fast.
    He can blast islands to pieces, so? Bee can too, Deidara almost blasted Suna with C3. Really don't see how him blowing up islands is relevant

  8. #38
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    @Uchiha_Blood
    Quote Quote:
    Shame that against Asura Realm he had all the momentum of his jump together with his massive arm power
    Oh that is the explanation the jump (his own weight) provides more power then a rasengan. Then the second time around he did not have arms... Got to take notes of this.

    Face it you have no explanation...

    Quote Quote:
    I doubt a Rasengan hasn't the strenght to redirect an arm
    That is left to be seen as we have now its a SM rasengan + a SM user with insane stg.

    Quote Quote:
    Simple, if Yondaime can move in-teleporting ( which he can do, as he reappers always in a different position in which disappears ) then the whole "can't move" argument becomes pointless
    That is because the magic (or whatever you whant to name it) alows him to instantly reposition his body. He is not moving anything. He apears from standing to kneeling and its not because he had when to move. He does that because of ST magic but his body can't do those movements itself.
    This is not going to help him when he needs to swing a rasengan into Raikage for instance.
    He pops next to him but he still needs to swing and Raikage is faster then Minato's swing and that is exacly how Raikage planed to win vs Minato but he never had the chanse to test it out.

    Quote Quote:
    His nephew was behind him
    Whatever it was. That guy demonstrated that Tsuck is not going to kill the people around him doing that.

    Quote Quote:
    So Tsuchikage would constantly make Raikage lighter while using Dust jutsus.
    Yeah, he can totally use Dust justus one-handed and during another jutsu, he didn't do it against Madara then why?
    Why would he constantly need to do that? Do you see him here holding handseals or anything? He does it once and that is it:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/563/12
    How long it lasts i got no idea. Also he is using jutsus at the same time:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/563/13

    Also look at what that did to Susano and imagine what it will do to Bee when this is the 3'th with his ultimate finger jab.

    Quote Quote:
    Why?
    Bee has the speed and the reflexes, why can't he dodge?
    Because he does not have them... He has what he needs to keep up with Raikage on casual speed. Raikage going full Raiton armour + shunshin + Tsuck making him lighter makes it imposible to dodge. Bee does not have the reflexes to dodge that... Considering he would be even lighter not sure if Naruto(not super curent one, the old RM version) or Minato could do it.. Be has no chanse.
    Quote Quote:
    I still place him as fast an any elite Jounin out there, if not more
    Depends what Jounin you are refering to. He is defenetly not Kakashi or Gai fast.

    Quote Quote:
    I too would fail like Tobi if with him failing he achieves almost everything he wanted to in case he won, imagine the war, hell the whole series with Kushina and Yondaime to support Konoha and Naruto
    He failed his main objectives. Those where things he did not plan for. Also it all turned out right mostly. Naruto got Kyuubi, Konoha was fine bla bla bla. If my goal is to steal money from a back and i fail that but i find a loter ticked and so i get rich is not me achiving what i planed.

    Quote Quote:
    But it isn't neither 10 meters, and A traveled at max speed at least that much.
    Adding Tsuchikage he would double his speed maximum ( I'm being overly generous), it would be 20m. The statues are way bigger than that. So I'm afraid Raikage will not blitz a thing, Tsuchikage or not
    Never said he would blitz them.. I said he can close the gap before the biju blast is shoot and even if he is he can dodge the incoming projectile. Then when he is up they are not going to keep up... Not even Minato.

    Quote Quote:
    Why I can't compare someone who is among the fastest character in the series even without gates with an ability that multiplies his own strenght tenfolds to someone who is using just a jutsu?
    You can't compare in terms of what speeds they can achive... Gai oviously is not Raikage level in speed. You can go ahea and compare Minato, Gai and who ever else you whant in terms of speed... But you can't coompare what level of speed they can achive (well you can with Minato). Now add Tsuck inscresing his speed even more and its defenetly not something Gai can get to...

    Quote Quote:
    Akatsuchi was way slower than Oonoki when he flew, so no, Tsuchikage can't make ppl fly fast.
    He can blast islands to pieces, so? Bee can too, Deidara almost blasted Suna with C3. Really don't see how him blowing up islands is relevant
    I don't even remember if Tsuck was controling him or that gai was doing it himself but even if Tsuck was controling him this time he would not be controling to targets to slow him down. Its just himself that is riding on Raikage, it would be the same as controling himself.

    The relevant part comes from the fact that Raikage's team can dodge them or tank them (well raikage and Tsuck that is on him) and the other team not so much.

  9. #39
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Uchiha_Blood

    Oh that is the explanation the jump (his own weight) provides more power then a rasengan. Then the second time around he did not have arms... Got to take notes of this.

    Face it you have no explanation...
    Yeah, I guess gravity is just a silly thing of no importance, jumping from a giant summon to the ground with an high speed movement surely didn't give to Naruto extra momentum.
    Guess I'll jump from a building, after all I'll be fine and dandy, right?

    Quote Quote:
    That is left to be seen as we have now its a SM rasengan + a SM user with insane stg.
    If we go by logic, or common sense, a jutsu that can kill a person with one strike should be able to redirect an arm

    Quote Quote:
    Whatever it was. That guy demonstrated that Tsuck is not going to kill the people around him doing that.
    Duh, because, you know, if you are behind the guy that uses the jutsu you should not be hit by it, unless the user used a jutsu that would harm him in the process. And then wasn't Tsuchikage on Raikage's shoulders?

    Quote Quote:
    Why would he constantly need to do that? Do you see him here holding handseals or anything? He does it once and that is it:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/563/12
    How long it lasts i got no idea. Also he is using jutsus at the same time:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/563/13

    Also look at what that did to Susano and imagine what it will do to Bee when this is the 3'th with his ultimate finger jab.
    Duh, he is busy keeping his hands on Raikage, mantaining his jutsu.
    In case you aren't aware, the weight shifting jutsu is the same basic jutsu, its name changes when he makes things lighter or heavier.

    As for the Bee argument, I hope you're not referring to his Bijuu mode

    Quote Quote:
    Because he does not have them... He has what he needs to keep up with Raikage on casual speed. Raikage going full Raiton armour + shunshin + Tsuck making him lighter makes it imposible to dodge. Bee does not have the reflexes to dodge that... Considering he would be even lighter not sure if Naruto(not super curent one, the old RM version) or Minato could do it.. Be has no chanse.
    On your assumption, which the manga somewhat disproves since if Bee = L1 Raikage then cloaked Bee or even better V2 Bee should be comparable to L2 Raikage. It wasn't "casual speed", it was Raikage stopping them.
    It was nothing casual, he was ready to kill them

    Quote Quote:
    Depends what Jounin you are refering to. He is defenetly not Kakashi or Gai fast.
    What better feats has Kakashi in speed, I wonder?
    Remember against Deva? Who was the one Deva stabbed in close range, Base Naruto or Kakashi?

    Quote Quote:
    He failed his main objectives. Those where things he did not plan for. Also it all turned out right mostly. Naruto got Kyuubi, Konoha was fine bla bla bla. If my goal is to steal money from a back and i fail that but i find a loter ticked and so i get rich is not me achiving what i planed.
    No, its you failing but obtaining just as much, thus not failing.
    Also don't forget, Konoha gained something only because Naruto endured 13 years of tortured childhood, a mistep and now the world would be under Mugen Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Quote:
    Never said he would blitz them.. I said he can close the gap before the biju blast is shoot and even if he is he can dodge the incoming projectile. Then when he is up they are not going to keep up... Not even Minato.
    How, if A at max speed could close a gap of not even 10 meters in a second?

    Quote Quote:
    You can't compare in terms of what speeds they can achive... Gai oviously is not Raikage level in speed. You can go ahea and compare Minato, Gai and who ever else you whant in terms of speed... But you can't coompare what level of speed they can achive (well you can with Minato). Now add Tsuck inscresing his speed even more and its defenetly not something Gai can get to...
    Do tell me why.
    Why someone as fast as Gai with gates can't be comparable in speed. Please, enlighten me.
    How opening the Gates is inferior to Raiton Armour? Expecially 7 gates at that?

    Quote Quote:
    I don't even remember if Tsuck was controling him or that gai was doing it himself but even if Tsuck was controling him this time he would not be controling to targets to slow him down. Its just himself that is riding on Raikage, it would be the same as controling himself.

    The relevant part comes from the fact that Raikage's team can dodge them or tank them (well raikage and Tsuck that is on him) and the other team not so much.
    They can tank a Bijuudama and a village buster?
    How? By praying Jashin?

  10. #40
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    @Uchiha_Blood

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, I guess gravity is just a silly thing of no importance, jumping from a giant summon to the ground with an high speed movement surely didn't give to Naruto extra momentum.
    Guess I'll jump from a building, after all I'll be fine and dandy, right?
    You see me claiming that adds nothing? I claimed it does not add more, A LOT MORE then a Rasengan. 1 has better durability and got 1 Rasengan.... And was ripped to piecess.

    Quote Quote:
    If we go by logic, or common sense, a jutsu that can kill a person with one strike should be able to redirect an arm
    This makes no sense sry... I am sure Amaterasu would not redict your arm and i am sure it can kill you. Of course i am sure you meant a jutsu that provides a physical force great enough to kill you... Just because something can kill you does not mean it has the ability to move your hand all the way back in your body. Now another thing you actualy think that would even harm Raikage with his shield up? You do understand the force is BLOCKED by that Raiton shield right?

    Its sure as hell not common sense.

    Quote Quote:
    Duh, because, you know, if you are behind the guy that uses the jutsu you should not be hit by it, unless the user used a jutsu that would harm him in the process. And then wasn't Tsuchikage on Raikage's shoulders?
    And how hard is to aim it over his shoulder? Or have Raikage turn his back and you shooting not in front of Raikage but the other way?

    Quote Quote:
    Duh, he is busy keeping his hands on Raikage, mantaining his jutsu.
    In case you aren't aware, the weight shifting jutsu is the same basic jutsu, its name changes when he makes things lighter or heavier.

    As for the Bee argument, I hope you're not referring to his Bijuu mode
    Or he was keeping his hands on keep so he does not fall? I am sure those dues on riding bikes are not performing jutsus.
    Then later he used a combo with Raikage just fine even IF he was making him light.

    Also yes even full form Bee would go down. A horn from another biju put a bad injury in him. The 4'th was able to cut his horn (way more durable then flesh).

    Imagine the 3'th with his ultimate weapon + combo from Tsuck impaling his brain.

    Quote Quote:
    On your assumption, which the manga somewhat disproves since if Bee = L1 Raikage then cloaked Bee or even better V2 Bee should be comparable to L2 Raikage. It wasn't "casual speed", it was Raikage stopping them.
    It was nothing casual, he was ready to kill them
    So that is why Raikage states he is the fastest man alive and nobody aside from Minato could dodge that. Not only that Bee can only charge in a linear plane making him a perfect target.
    Then Sasuke was dodging lvl 1 Bee ... He was not dodging Raikage now was he (full speed)?
    Also Bee has showed no real speed with lvl 2.

    Quote Quote:
    What better feats has Kakashi in speed, I wonder?
    Remember against Deva? Who was the one Deva stabbed in close range, Base Naruto or Kakashi?
    I sugest you go back and read why. Kakashi was injured and deva used some chakra in Kakashi so he would miss.


    Quote Quote:
    No, its you failing but obtaining just as much, thus not failing.
    Also don't forget, Konoha gained something only because Naruto endured 13 years of tortured childhood, a mistep and now the world would be under Mugen Tsukuyomi.
    Pff whatever. Its irrelevant anyway.
    Quote Quote:
    How, if A at max speed could close a gap of not even 10 meters in a second?
    You don't know the time gap. Also its not 1 second to fire a blast. Minato had enough time to do handseals. Oro had time to put up thos gates. Its not that fast...
    Then of course he would have no problme dodging the projectile. Its not a cone attack, its a projectile.

    Quote Quote:
    Do tell me why.
    Why someone as fast as Gai with gates can't be comparable in speed. Please, enlighten me.
    How opening the Gates is inferior to Raiton Armour? Expecially 7 gates at that?
    No, let's do so difernetly show me Gai's speed feats. Then i can show you Raikage's....

    Quote Quote:
    They can tank a Bijuudama and a village buster?
    How? By praying Jashin?
    A blast is has its force spread out in all directions..... Not only that Raikage already had to fight the 8 tails. Perhaps it never got to shoot one but i don't think so. Its 1 think to blow up building and another to harm Raikage... Or somebody who stands behind him.

  11. #41
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Uchiha_Blood
    So that is why Raikage states he is the fastest man alive and nobody aside from Minato could dodge that. Not only that Bee can only charge in a linear plane making him a perfect target.
    Then Sasuke was dodging lvl 1 Bee ... He was not dodging Raikage now was he (full speed)?
    Also Bee has showed no real speed with lvl 2.
    I don't think you're giving Bee enough credit. Raikage's portrayal of his own abilities have to be taken with a grain of salt. He said he was the fastest, and he also said Bee's lariat couldn't match-up against his. He was promptly wrecked be Bee, even without Bee utilising his cloak. Sasuke was barely surviving Bee, his Sharingan was unable to keep up. And Raikage was utilising his top speed with the use of his cloak, while Bee was not. So that comparison doesn't have much value.

    Quote Quote:
    Or he was keeping his hands on keep so he does not fall? I am sure those dues on riding bikes are not performing jutsus. Then later he used a combo with Raikage just fine even IF he was making him light.
    I think it likely that if Oonoki is lightening Raikage, he is going to be limited to doing just that. The pair would have to stop for him to use any of his dust release techniques.

  12. #42
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    @Impossibility

    Enough creadit? He has no feats to show him as fast as Raikage when Raikage is using his FULL speed and defenetly not when Tsuckisage is making Raikage lighter and giving him even MORE speed. Its not that i understimate him, its that he has no feats to put him on that level.

    Sasuke was perfecly able to keep up with Bee's speed when Bee was charging around. Sasuke could not keep up with Bee's skill in swordsmanship.
    When Raikage dodged Amaterasu and charged at Sasuke the only thing he could do is use an instant Amaterasu on Susano as he could not keep up at all, Karin states the same thing in the manga.

    Now Bee was using his cloack and Sasuke was dodging him. He even dodged something that Bee stated only Raikage oculd...And Be HAD his chakra mode on.

    As for the Raikage - Tsuck thing perhaps it would apply if not at the end of the charge both of them used a combo togeder... Usualy when one is chaneling or anything else he is doing handseals. Think of Nagato and CT. Holding on to Raikage and instantly asume he was doing that its not that logical... Perhaps he was just hanging on? Not that it matters as he clearly showed the ability to go from that to a hit at the same time with Raikage blast Susano.

  13. #43
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Impossibility

    Enough creadit? He has no feats to show him as fast as Raikage when Raikage is using his FULL speed and defenetly not when Tsuckisage is making Raikage lighter and giving him even MORE speed. Its not that i understimate him, its that he has no feats to put him on that level.
    Bee showed considerable speed in almost every single battle in which he participated. But, I guess I'd just point to the brief skirmish between A and Bee & Naruto. He was able to intervene before A made contact with his punch intended for Naruto, and his tail was able to capture A.

    Quote Quote:
    As for the Raikage - Tsuck thing perhaps it would apply if not at the end of the charge both of them used a combo togeder... Usualy when one is chaneling or anything else he is doing handseals. Think of Nagato and CT. Holding on to Raikage and instantly asume he was doing that its not that logical... Perhaps he was just hanging on? Not that it matters as he clearly showed the ability to go from that to a hit at the same time with Raikage blast Susano.
    We haven't seen Oonoki use his dust release while lightening Raikage. And even if, by your argument, he was just holding on, he is still not going to be able to use the techniques simultaneously because he is, as you said, going to need his hands to hold on. As I mentioned before the only method Oonoki can utilise is for him to cease his lightening of Raikage. I'm also curious to know if Oonoki can use his dust release techniques while he's covered by Raikage's cloak. Although this is more of an academic question rather than one solely related to the discussion at hand.

  14. #44
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Uchiha_Blood

    You see me claiming that adds nothing? I claimed it does not add more, A LOT MORE then a Rasengan. 1 has better durability and got 1 Rasengan.... And was ripped to piecess.
    You do know how gravity, mass accelleration and everything related works, right?
    If not, there is a very nice page on wikipedia

    Quote Quote:
    This makes no sense sry... I am sure Amaterasu would not redict your arm and i am sure it can kill you. Of course i am sure you meant a jutsu that provides a physical force great enough to kill you... Just because something can kill you does not mean it has the ability to move your hand all the way back in your body. Now another thing you actualy think that would even harm Raikage with his shield up? You do understand the force is BLOCKED by that Raiton shield right?

    Its sure as hell not common sense.
    Because Rasengan is a flame and not a ninjutsu that creates a strong spiralling impact when it hits, right?

    Quote Quote:
    And how hard is to aim it over his shoulder? Or have Raikage turn his back and you shooting not in front of Raikage but the other way?
    As hard as using Jinton with a single hand ( impossible ), as hard as mantaining his jutsu while using Jinton ( impossible ).

    Quote Quote:
    Or he was keeping his hands on keep so he does not fall? I am sure those dues on riding bikes are not performing jutsus.
    Then later he used a combo with Raikage just fine even IF he was making him light.
    Difference, that jutsu do not require both hands to use like Jinton, and was the same jutsu he activated on Raikage, he simply shifted it

    Quote Quote:
    Also yes even full form Bee would go down. A horn from another biju put a bad injury in him. The 4'th was able to cut his horn (way more durable then flesh).

    Imagine the 3'th with his ultimate weapon + combo from Tsuck impaling his brain.
    Again, Raikage can fly, and Bee is a sitting duck, not someone who could whip out a Bijuudama the moment he sees Raikage coming at him. Again, he doesn't travel at the speed of light, it takes time to reach the top of a bijuu head

    Quote Quote:
    So that is why Raikage states he is the fastest man alive and nobody aside from Minato could dodge that. Not only that Bee can only charge in a linear plane making him a perfect target.
    Then Sasuke was dodging lvl 1 Bee ... He was not dodging Raikage now was he (full speed)?
    Also Bee has showed no real speed with lvl 2.
    Sasuke dodged Bee because he moved on a straight line, if he would've used Shunshin I doubt Sasuke would've dodged as easily.
    Also Bee with V2 was so fast Kisame couldn't react, the same Kisame that at 30% forced Gai to go 6 Gates

    Quote Quote:
    I sugest you go back and read why. Kakashi was injured and deva used some chakra in Kakashi so he would miss.
    I said he was hit, not that he missed his Raikiri.
    If he was so fast, why then Naruto kept up with Deva easily while Kakashi was just as easily wounded?

    Quote Quote:
    You don't know the time gap. Also its not 1 second to fire a blast. Minato had enough time to do handseals. Oro had time to put up thos gates. Its not that fast...
    Then of course he would have no problme dodging the projectile. Its not a cone attack, its a projectile.
    That explodes on contact with something, meaning Raikage and Tsuchikage have what, 2-3 seconds? Good luck traveling that distance until they reach Bee's back in that amount of time

    Quote Quote:
    No, let's do so difernetly show me Gai's speed feats. Then i can show you Raikage's....
    Don't change the subject, enlighten me, please, after which I'll enlighten you.

    Quote Quote:
    A blast is has its force spread out in all directions..... Not only that Raikage already had to fight the 8 tails. Perhaps it never got to shoot one but i don't think so. Its 1 think to blow up building and another to harm Raikage... Or somebody who stands behind him.
    yes, because he is a shield so great he will block an omnidirectional explosion.
    He will be engulfed by it, and even by the off chance he can survive, sure as hell Oonoki can't. What you stated would've been right if a Bijuudama didn't create an explosion equal to a mountain

  15. #45
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Oonoki, Jiraya, Third Raikage vs. Minato, Deidara, Killer Bee

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    if he doesn't break out. The cloak might nullify the ink, or Oonoki could destroy some of the ink with his Jinton. I don't see Raikage being able to stand up to C4 if it goes in him, though.
    The cloak could interfere, though it seems like it would take quite a bit of power judging by the Edo Jinchuuriki. I don't think Onoki would be able to use his Dust release though, as so far all the techniques have been pretty big and wild. He might not have any precision with them, especially going by his encounter with Deidara.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    That is not keeping up... that is intervening when those 2 are distracted with 1 another... Even suigetsu and Juugo reacted to casual speed Raikage. Again he reacted to casual speed Raikage, full charge only Naruto and Minato can avoid.
    Now that chidori like move from Raikage + Tsuck making Tsuck ligher (even MORE SPEED) + some combo would kill Bee even in his cloack... His ultimate move + tsuck would rip him in half.
    He can spit some ink but how much can he and can he do the jutsu? Why has he never used it before? It could have helped him... Well at least that is not his fighting style or perhaps they don't work like that... They where just created, run to the targets and jumped on them.. Perhaps they can't stay in that form for long and they start to go solid or whatever.
    Casual speed? Both Ee and Naruto had at the very least been moving faster then their regular speed. Why would Kirabi be ripped in half? The secondary cloaks have been shown capable of enduring sucha move on it's own without issue, meaning even twice as powerful, it should only do some damage, not just blast though. And with Samehade taking away a part of the force before it even gets to Kisame, the damage shouldn't be anything more then minor. Kirabi spit quite a bit against Kisame. Who knows, but they were shown subduing some of the Edo Paths.

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