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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
1.- Nobody knew Aizen would fuse with the Hogyoku. The Karakura battle happened months before Urahara predicted it would. After Aizen revealed the Hogyoku was in his chest, all the captains were biting dust under debris, so going around lifting rocks and telling them "Hey, Aizen is immortal" wouldn't have had any purpose whatsoever.
2.- Urahara used the seal. Both the wrist shackles and the seal where the last resort to stop Aizen. Remember how Urahara, who created the Hogyoku, didn't know how to destroy it. The guy who can literally make anything out of thin air could not destroy it, much less when fused with the third or fourth strongest character in the series. After both failed, the only option was to try and take Aizen down.
3.- Why would Urahara have to plan Dangai training? It was purely coincidental. Aizen knew Ichigo would reach unprecedented levels, so probably Urahara too. Aizen later stated that he expected Ichigo to arrive with a new power, so he stopped running after the gang and decided to hang their bodies somewhere visible for the time being until Ichigo arrived. Surely Urahara was eavesdropping on Aizen's plan. Also, many captains believed Ichigo would save the day. They knew he was special and Urahara probably knew that at that point Ichigo was at a transcendental level.
4.- Ichigo could already feel Aizen's reiatsu. He's also been able to learn almost anything in hours or days. Believing that Ichigo could do something in just a few hours was not much of a stretch.
5.- It doesn't take a crystal ball to understand that part where Aizen said his plan was to make Ichigo grow to later absorb him.
6.- Urahara believed the Hogyoku could break the barriers between a shinigami and a hollow, because that's was his intention when he created it. Aizen had to understand the Hogyoku to realize its true purpose was to simply break the barriers of any living being.
7.- Urahara gave the captains all he knew.
8.- Urahara is simply good at listening. Aizen used Ichigo as an experiment and Urahara placed the seal hoping Ichigo would surpass Aizen.
9.- Urahara didn't know Aizen would "wish himself to be powerless". The whole "I can read minds when we cross swords" is just the spoon fed way to show how Ichigo has become able to comprehend his opponents. That part about Aizen wanting to be normal was Ichigo's interpretation of how Aizen become isolated by his own power, and maybe deep inside he knew this.
10.- Whoa whoa whoa, wait. So SHOOTING AN ENEMY FROM BEHIND RIGHT THROUGH THE CHEST is not a good method of assassination? Now you are going to tell me 1kg of cotton is harder than 1kg of steel. And no, he didn't have "every reason to believe it wouldn't work". Aizen was still Aizen and not fully transformed. He was still mortal before the cocoon.
So many logical problems with your post.
1.- Urahara knew aizen would fuse with the orb and developed the kido accordingly. Obviously telling them after getting their asses handed to them would have been useless however that is a crucial bit of information for before the fight.
2.- They weren't the final measures, they were the only things which urahara came up with. Both failed. And neither showcases a real strategist, this is just using shiny new gadgets. Ultimately incalculable amounts of luck defeated aizen.
3.- It was pure coincidental, that was my entire point. The very things which brought about aizen's defeat were beyond the scope of what urahara could have ever planned for. Not much of urahara being a strategist as far as aizens defeat goes on this way.
4.- Its an overwhelming gamble. Ichigo took over 1 month merely to actually learn his vizard powers (1 month to get to 11 seconds with the mask and the rest during his fight with grimmjow). Urahara counting on ichigo learning his true power in the time it would have taken aizen to make the key is beyond absurd. The whole thing was pure luck.
5.- I was responding at the notion that urahara had an idea of what he was doing here. For urahara to have planned for this he would have also had to account for random unpredictable things to turn out exactly as he planned. We do agree on this point though, your second point pretty much mentions a big enough chunk of what happened was coincidental.
6.- And still urahara knew the orb would make aizen immortal which is completely incoherent with the notion that it would make him half hollow only. I daresay urahara had a pretty good idea of what the orb did by the time he met aizen. Or we can assume this is not the sort of thing kubo normally does and it is a huge plot hole.
7.- He certainly didn't. Otherwise ichigo would have known aizen was immortal and the captains would not have planned to protect ichigo until he could land a proper hit on the actual aizen. There would have been no reason for yamamoto to go suicidal if he knew aizen could become immortal at any minute.
8.- Huge unsubstantiated gamble which only actually materialized because of the sheer amount of luck coincidences which you mentioned in point 3.
9.- The whole thing was merely ichigo's interpretation of what went on and to a great extent it is a very limited. Still, the point remains that there is a huge probability that aizen ended up being the one wishing to be normal thus the orb's reaction at that time. Urahara didn't deny anything either.
10.- Of course it is a good assassination attempt.... against normal enemies. Just not against the immortal who urahara knew would survive exploding from the inside out. The whole thing about urahara blatantly stating that he knew aizen would become immortal is very relevant here. Even in the most optimistic scenario it means urahara tried that attack and the wrist thing just to get the kido that sealed him in. And it still didn't work. Although technically just attacking from the back became a pointless trick against aizen the second ichigo failed at it. Another remarkably lucky shot for urahara, perhaps if ichigo hadn't tried this he wouldn't have even landed that hit on aizen.
The notion that urahara planned for anything in the war is absurd, that is all I am saying. Urahara is the gadget guy, not the planning guy.
There's also that part where it was half and half, that after being hit with by the FGT, the Hogyoku simply gave up on Aizen, because there was no way he could ever reach that level.
Last edited by The Newbie.; September 18, 2012 at 06:29 PM.
I don't think ishin's FGT would have worked as well as ichigo's. Ichigo could feel aizen's power before his dangai training and before he even used FGT he had his transcendental power. Taking this in consideration I doubt ishin's potential FGT would have achieved the same if anything at all.
I think Urahara did what he could, and it wasn't a little. He didn't know to what extent Aizen had fused with Hougyoku (and if he already became immortal; Urahara only knew that Aizen would become immortal at some point if not stopped), so he tried to make stuff that'd help defeat Aizen. The combo with Isshin and Yoruichi as attack force, the heavy armor for Yoruichi, the seals on Aizen's wrists and finally the super-ultimate seal. Too bad Aizen was already at a whole different level, and the seals didn't have capacity to seal all of his reiatsu (like when you have a charged point, when the charge gets beyond a certain level, it discharges to its surroundings). At the very least, when Ichi cut him in half, the seal started working, because Aizen was weakened.
So, what Urahara did, was make sure Aizen won't get up again, if he's defeated. (There's a plot hole here: how come the seal didn't work after Gin made a big hole in Aizen's chest?)
I think Urahara's seal was intended to be used before the Hogyoku initiated any major changes in Aizen, but he began transforming before Urahara (and Aizen himself) could have predicted. Then Urahara had no choice but to use it anyway in the hopes that it would work anyway, or at least if Aizen was ever weakened.
But anyway, Urahara wouldn't seem to be one of the VRs 5 war potentials, given that Quilge paid him no attention even after watching him open the Garganta for Ichigo, which is surprising because I would have expected Urahara to be a person of interest. I do think, though, that Mayuri might be one, since he should have more information on Quincies than anyone after all the experiments he carried out in the past. From the VR's point of view, he's the most likely person to have devised some tool to use against them.
I'm not sure why some people think Aizen might be a special war potential to be honest. He's locked up for one thing, and more importantly he's been entirely stripped of his power. He's no more than a Plus right now, really. But I wonder if it's possible that the Hogyoku itself might be of interest to the VR. We don't know exactly how much they know about Aizen's activities, so as far as they know the Hogyoku exists to remove the barrier between Hollow and Shinigami, in which case it's of no use to them. But if they've somehow learned it's true capabilities they may be after it.
WPs seem to be people who can threaten the VR. Ichigo's bankai can't be stolen, Kenpachi can kill Stern Ritter without having a bankai, etc. We don't see very much of the Kido Corps, but we know that they have their own captain and vice-captain. Unlike the Gotei 13, the Kido Corps main strength derives from their spells, rather than zanpakutos and bankais. Presumably their captain is strong enough to stand up to other captains without even drawing their sword, so they can likely handle Stern Ritter without relying on bankai.
My guesses for WPs are: Ichigo, Kenpachi, Yamamoto, Mayuri (that one's a maybe), and whoever the current Kido Corps Captain happens to be.
It's funny, this has gotten pretty off-topic about Aizen and Urahara. I guess I'll mention my thoughts on it: It seems like Aizen was only defeated by Ichigo's and Urahara's combined efforts. The Kido Urahara used didn't do squat until Ichigo slapped Aizen around. Only then did the Hogyoku decide that Aizen wasn't hot stuff anymore, so that let Urahara's kido spell work. And if the spell wasn't there, Ichigo would've been done for since he lost his powers.
The "War Potentials" aren't necessarily the strongest people, just those who the Quincy are looking out for. Juha seems to have tons of data on everyone, so it wouldn't surprise me if he knew Aizen was still around and planned to use him, so for that reason, Aizen might make the list.
Or maybe the other 3 on the list are the Vaizard captains, because their bankai might be hard to steal.
About Urahara, no one's saying he's not strong. But Kirge saw both Ichigo and Urahara, yet only remarked that Ichigo was on their list.
I think Aizen is not a WP, as Kirge talked about him as if he was dead, I suppose if Juuha knew that he is alive, he would have told the SternRitters, that
"By the way guys, Aizen is not dead, expect him if you blow up that prison somewhere..."
I beleive that war potentials are:
1. Ichigo - nuff said
2. Yama-jii - read the recent chapters
3. Yoruichi - no zanpakuto around, still fast and boss, could take out some of the SR
4. Kenpachi - no Bankai, constant shikai, killed a couple of guys
5. Kurosaki Isshin - his zanpakuto must be similar to Zangetsu, so it is possible, that his bankai cannot be stolen either, and also he showed that he is very powerful with only his shikai
If we assume that the war potentials are the guys who must be avoided or seperated if possible, then this, above, is my list.
If we think about them as the first guys that must be killed, then I would say:
2. Kenpachi - does not talk much, kills too much, was a problem
3. Mayuri - knows too much, could be a problem. Give him time and he could turn the tables and win this war. Also he was familiar with the Juuha and Yamamoto story.
4. Unohana - heals too much, is a problem
5. Yamamoto - burns too much, is a problem, also as CC has a significant role in battles; he wins, moral raises, he loses, all hope is gone...
I don't think CC is a war potential. He's more like a war overlord.
In the list of people who must be killed to win the war, it's:
1. Yama - he's strong and he's the boss
2. Yama - better kill him again to make sure
OK, nevermind the 2 confirmed potentials, here are some thoughts on other 3:
Urahara - I'd say he's a war potential, but Kirge didn't really care about him... and I doubt bad memory's the reason... so he doesn't seem to be one.
Mayuri - If he's a potential, then Urahara is even more so. Between the 2, I'd choose Urahara (he seems to be more of a scientific genius), which doesn't leave place for Mayuri.
Yama - look above
Aizen - likely, hougyoku'd badass
Unohana - This is tough. Everyone's afraid of mama-captain, plus I fear imagining what her bankai can do... but we really don't have enough info to say anything.
Other captains, Vizards - noooo, they don't have crazy abilities that'd give reasons for them to be WP.
Isshin - OK, he is strong, and his power has many similarities to Ichi (and it's also possible he went FGT before, since he knows about it), but let me just ask - what is it that'd make him take part in the war, when he refuses to go to SS? This is about war potentials, and I doubt Isshin would take part in the war before it moves to Karakura town and all shinigami are beaten unconscious so they don't see him. It's also possible the quincies don't know about him, since he doesn't really act out.
Yoruichi - Hm, could be. She's unusual enough and strong without a bankai.
Chad, Orihime - they don't seem to play major roles in this arc, even if their powers are very unusual and if used correctly (read: if they were strong enough) could help SS win the war. No.
Uryuu - It's been hinted at that he's strong, has an interesting relationship with both SS and VR, is the only quincy outside of VR that could fight with Ichi's side (Ryuken seems to not care even more than Isshin, and hates shinigami more than Uryuu). He's quite a good choice for a WP.
If what Urahara said is true, then why the hell did the Hogyoku regenerated him ? If it doesn't recognize him as its master, it should've let Aizen die and that's it, but no it didn't at all
The " logical " explanation (and that fits the events too) is Ichigo's explanation after all
The War potentials in my opinion:
1. the biggest War potential i can think of is Ishida (and what he is going to do with whom). it is greatly suspicious that Kubo would exclude Ishida without a reason.
2. Ichigo and Yamamoto. Yamammoto because of his overwhelming power and Ichigo because of being Protagonist.
3. The unknown person at Hueco Mundo.
4. Mayuri? he certainly has a history with Quincy.
5. Kenpachi, may be it's time for him to unlock Bankai.
6. Aizen, he is so cool that he should appear once again.
The issue with the person in HM is that he is "unknown". If he is a war potential and kirge got killed that way it would have been for a decent bit of gross negligence on vandereich's part. I don't think VR knew about whoever that person is. If they don't know then he can't be a war potential.
Mayuri seems to have history with an entirely different branch of quincy. So far it does seem like the quincy from 200 years ago were different from the quincy from 1000 years ago.