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Thread: The 5 War Potentials

  1. #256
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, shunsui did not win against starrk completely alone. He only got an upper hand on starrk when he managed to sneak up on him and stab him on the heart with one of his games. Before that shunsui could not even keep the fight in melee range. Shunsui is strong for doing what he did to starrk but by no means did he win alone.
    Yes, Kyoraku didn't close in after Starrk went into his released form, but at the same time, he didn't really get the chance to. Almost immediately after Starrk started shooting ceros, Ukitake intervened. Shortly after that, Love and Rose (?) showed up and took over the fight.

    To be honest, I'm sure that Shunsui would have been able to win regardless of the Vizards intervention. Starrk was undoubtedly very strong, but I seriously doubt that he would have been able to dodge the attack from his shadow. He was very surprised after he was stabbed which suggests that he wouldn't have expected such an attack. Before that, he wasn't (or perhaps his sword refused?) fighting seriously. After Kyoraku meddled in, it switched back to a 1vs1 which Kyoraku dominated him in. In other words, I'm pretty sure that the outcome would very much have been the same even if he had been alone. The turning point was the shadow attack, which Starrk most liekly would have gotten hit from.

  2. #257
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    Well, even for the shadow attack shunsui would have needed to close in on starrk, something which he had failed to do through the fight even with his underhanded methods. More so, shunsui was the one on the run before ukitake intervened and he even told ukitake he was about to use bankai. Even then, there is the consideration that it was love who actually dealt with starrk's guns and it was the two of them who had to deal with the wolves. Ultimately what we saw was that shunsui was not able to cut the distance between him and starrk and from what we saw there was little he could have done to avoid the wolves. I think shunsui would have ultimately won but only with bankai as starrk was ultimately the wrong kind of opponent for shunsui. Shunsui had the clear advantage in melee combat but starrk was a ranged fighter whom shunsui defeated with a backstab and by getting him into melee combat which he only managed because his attention was focused on love and rose.

  3. #258
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MBVC's Avatar
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    First of all Stark didn't know about Shunshui's sneaky shikai, otherwise that fight might have ended as a draw. As long as Stark stands above the sky, Shunshui can't do anything with thousands of cero after him but to hide in the shadow. Also, Shunshui's abilities don't mean anything against Baraggan. Except Yam, Stark could take all the other captains at once if Baraggan fought with Shunshui. His top speed is much faster than Ichigo, there is no way in hell those average captains can dodge his ceros.

    Anyway, I expect Zaraki fights Bach after his "training" and fails so that Shunshui has to force to use plan B which releases Aizen to deal with Bach. Hence the true 3 of the 5 potentials after Zaraki is defeated will be Ichigo, Aizen, and Urahara. The remaining two are open for debate.
    Last edited by MBVC; March 15, 2013 at 02:35 PM.

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  4. #259
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    Quote Quote:
    I don't think tsukishima is good enough to be a war potential on any front. Even as dangerous as his ability is it is not infallible. Take byakuya for instance. Tsukishima inserted himself into byakuya's memories turning into someone who had been there always. That is easily over 110 years. Even then, byakuya remorselessly killed tsukishima simply because tsukishima was ichigo's enemy. The whole thing is even disturbing to some extent, byakuya being cold hearted enough someone who had been there ALWAYS, no exception. Now, why would the ability be so dangerous to vandenreich? Juhabach is essentially a good to the quincy, how many of them would betray him for a mere human? Tsukishima's greatest assets is to turn your allies and own memories against you and neither of them is likely against juhabach. As for war potentials I would argue the following:
    I think that you and many people dont get the reasone as to wyh Byakuya won.
    Its not because he is cold hearted or whatever. Tsukishimas ability make him undefeatable when he cuts someone. Even if you not a gay he can make it so that even a homophobic guy will end up in bad with him.
    The oly reason as to why Byakuya could fight him is because he wanted Byakuya to fight him. He made himself into Byakuyas frien, but he never ereased the fact that at that moment he was Byakuyas and Ichigos enemy and he could do it.

    As for the SWP
    IDK
    Uryuu and Ryuuken have a good chance and Isshin and Tessai and the RG. RLY its hard to tell and TBH we dont know how much VR actualy knows about all people. Bach made Keny into an SWP and later complained that he is so weak when he should know Kenys level.

    Quote Quote:
    And what was shunsui's first move as captain commander? Without an ounce of remorse he sent unohana to die like a worthless sick dog in the deepest darkest pit in SS. The result? SS got a full powered kenpachi capable of defeating bankai unohana easily. To boot the very power that defeated unohana easily is potentially just a fraction of what kenpachi is now capable of as after easily defeating unohana he finally learned the name of his sword. Of course, it is entirely possible unohana actually survived in which case shunsui sent unohana to die in the deepest darkest pit in SS and in return got two full powered kenpachis. Or perhaps unohana survived but she is no longer capable of fighting which still means shunsui ended on the plus side of the gamble as they at least kept a powerful healer instead.
    I need to say Kubo did such a lame job with it. When Unohana was finished she was already fighting for 3 days and healind keny for 3 days. So at the end of the fight Keny was at full power since Healing= restoring reiatsu and healing wounds. So it was unhana with who knows how small portion of her full power vs Kenpachi at full power. Kubo really couldnt make the Kenpachi hype andy more lame and at the same time he couldnt make Unohana into a biger trash,

    ALSO Aizen is lready confirmed as a SWP.
    Last edited by ReiWen; March 15, 2013 at 02:06 PM.

  5. #260
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    Not entirely sure of what you mean but I think you are suggesting tsukishima can actually change memories which is not the case. Tsukishima cannot change a memory for another, he can simply insert himself into already existing memories to make it seem as if he was there. Take orihime, he didn't create new memories with him being there, he placed himself in place of other people so he was the one who fought aizen or byakuya. Perhaps the case can be made that tsukishima should have not just inserted himself into byakuya's past but rather aim to replace ichigo in it. Then again book of the end showed it could replace memories but not feelings so perhaps even that would not have been enough to deal with the gratitude byakuya has for ichigo.

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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    I know that he cant change memories, however dependinh of who he wants to be he can make people like him or love him or hate him or whatever he wants. If he would want he would make it so that Byakuya wouldnt be able to do anything agains him. Feelings are created baesd on what happened between people. He just needs to place himself the right way and he doent need to fight. Hime loves Ichigo and all, but she had no memories about Tsukishima as an enemy. So even if BotE cant make memories and replace people it doesnt need to have such ability to make people unable to fight Tsuki.
    He can manipulate his presence in those memories in any way he wants. He can erese the moment he cuts people. Afterall orihime doent remember the fact that Tsukishima was an enemy before he became firen. Hell Byakuya didnt remember that he was cut be Tsuki.
    If Tsukishima wanted to defeat Byakuya he could just make Byakuyya forget that they are enemise.
    Of course Tsuki is to weak for a SWP no matter how hax he is she would be too slow and all that and e needs to first cut people.
    Last edited by ReiWen; March 15, 2013 at 03:24 PM.

  7. #262
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    I don't think tsukishima could make people forget they are enemies if the information about the enemies did not come from him. Wouldn't that entail changing a memory altogether? Tsukishima is limited by the fact that he can only insert himself into already existing memories. Even if he does insert or replaces himself in a memory the manga specifically showed us he could not actually change feelings nor who those are feelings are for.
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/462/7

    Orihime loved every ounce of tsukishima's existence but even when every bit of ichigo was replaced by tsukishima orihime still loved and suffered for ichigo. It was a similar thing that happened with byakuya. Tsukishima might have actually replaced ichigo with himself in byakuya's memories but that still would not have changed in the least byakuya's real feelings for ichigo.

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  9. #263
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    A different idea: Tsukishima and Ginjo as a tag team could count as one special war potential. One's bankai cannot be stolen, and he's strong, while the other has a very dangerous ability.
    They were a dangerous tagteam in the Fullbring arc.

    Not to mention they are now souls and have received training, so they could be stronger.

    Urahara is also a good guess...but it seems like the SWPs are based on their fighting ability first and foremost. Urahara's smart and strong but he's no powerhouse.
    The trouble he had with Kirge makes me doubt him.

    And finally, Grimmjow, the guy with a release that probably can't be stolen

  10. #264
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think tsukishima could make people forget they are enemies if the information about the enemies did not come from him. Wouldn't that entail changing a memory altogether? Tsukishima is limited by the fact that he can only insert himself into already existing memories. Even if he does insert or replaces himself in a memory the manga specifically showed us he could not actually change feelings nor who those are feelings are for.
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/462/7

    Orihime loved every ounce of tsukishima's existence but even when every bit of ichigo was replaced by tsukishima orihime still loved and suffered for ichigo. It was a similar thing that happened with byakuya. Tsukishima might have actually replaced ichigo with himself in byakuya's memories but that still would not have changed in the least byakuya's real feelings for ichigo.
    Actually that's not entirely correct. Many people misunderstand Tsukishima's abilities because Kubo didn't explain them too well but one thing we do know is that Tsukishima BoE does nothing to memories.

    Quote Quote:
    7
    Ichigo: ..........................................
    Ginjou: ...Right before they attacked me... // Yukio and the other said something. // "It's about time..." / "...we all remembered."
    Ichigo: ........."Remembered"...? // What's that supposed to mean...?
    Ginjou: From what Chad told me, my suspicions was that Tsukishima had the ability to confuse people's minds, mess up their memories. // But when it happened, none of them seemed confused at all. If anything, it seemed as if they were suddenly remembering things more clearly than before... // So I think... // ...Tsukishima's ability must be...

    8
    Ginjou: ...not to "mess up people's memories"... // ...but to "manipulate their pasts".

    Ichigo: !!
    Ginjou: Tsukishima's Fullbring, Book Of The End, was created from a bookmark. // This is nothing more than speculation... / ...but if this power he's using is a new ability that Book Of The End has somehow developed, it would make sense for it to reflect that original form.

    9
    Ginjou: Like a bookmark... // Tsukishima is inserting himself... / ...into the past of anyone he slices with his blade.
    Ichigo: You think he can... // ...actually do that.........?!
    Ginjou: I don't know. / But you must have heard how his victims talk about him. // It's not as though they suddenly trust in him for no reason. It goes much deeper than that. // As far as they're concerned, he's always been a part of their lives. / He exists somewhere in their past. // Whether he's family... / ...a friend... / ...a lover... // He's got a personal connection to each of them.

    10
    Ginjou: There's no other explanation... // ...for the way all his victims act. // They're not being controlled, they're not suffering from memory loss. / New facts have simply been inserted into their pasts. // They're not going to suddenly come back to their senses if we wish hard enough, like in some kind of fairy tale. // From their point of view... // ...the two of us who don't remember Tsukishima are the crazy ones.
    Quote Quote:
    11
    [End of the Bond 2]
    Tsukishima: In science-fiction novels and such... // ...you often read stories about people using a time machine to go to the past and create a new future. // It's always the future that changes due to the characters' actions. // That's because time is generally considered to flow from the past towards the future. // But my Book Of The End doesn't create new futures... // It creates new pasts.

    12
    Tsukishima: This is possible because my ability doesn't rely upon manipulating time or even memories... // It simply inserts my very presence into the pasts of others as I see fit.
    Ichigo: So Ginjou's guess was spot-on, huh...?
    Tsukishima: ! / Ginjou was able to identify my ability? // How surprising. / I may have underestimated him. // I thought he was less intelligent than that. // At any rate... / It may be disheartening, but I would like you to understand. // The past that they have experienced and the past that you have experienced are two different things.
    Every time Tsukishima speaks he says that he inserts his presence into people's past and not their memories. He changes their past and this subsequently changes their memories because memories are a product of your past experiences.

    However Tsukishima cannot predict with 100% accuracy how changing your past is going to influence you. He replaced Inoue's brother with himself and that was enough to make Inoue love him. He then made himself Byakuya's mentor believing that was enough for him to get past Byakuya. He was wrong about that.

    A simplified (but not entirely accurate) anology as to how Tsukishima's powers work is this:

    1. Tsukishima cuts you.
    2. The cut opens a time portal from which he steps into your past.
    3. He replaces important figures of your life and somehow stops himself from aging.
    4. After he's done all he can he comes back to the present.

    This is evident by how he cut the ground:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/468/15
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/468/16
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/468/17

    Tsukishima cut the ground and made it though that he really came to the ground in the past. That's how he was able to insert the trap. If it was just a false memory he planted then how did ground collapse when Byakuya stepped on it? It couldn't have been anything false. It really happened. So in simple terms Tsukishima went in the BoE time machine to set his trap and then came back. I know it's a bit difficult to understand because we don't see any time portal or whatever opening but that's just how it works.

    Same thing with Byakuya:

    Quote Quote:
    7
    Byakuya: ...And you claim to have realised this weakness... // ...by doing battle with Senbonzakura numerous times in the past? // ...That doesn't quite add up. // How, then, did you come to know the name by which this area is called?
    Tsukishima: You told me yourself. // Surely you have not forgotten already? // You were just sliced by my blade. // Now... / Let us continue, Byakuya.

    8
    Tsukishima: No technique that you have ever devised will be effective against me. // After all... / It was I who stood by your side and helped you to develop them all.
    When Tsukishima first inserts his presence into someone's past it takes a little while for their memories to readjust (like how Inoue and Chad were confused when they were first cut). That's why Bykuya asks why it doesn't add up, his memories are a bit muddled. However the fact remains that Tsukishima inserted his presence into Byakuya's past and became his mentor. He really became the person who taught him all his techniques. Byakuya himself never denies this. In fact he acknowledges that as long as Tsukishima's presense was in his past then he would be indebted to him:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/473

    But like I said earlier, becoming his mentor was not enough to change Byakuya's opinion of him. Tsukishima thought it was enough to stop Byakuya from killing him. He was wrong.

    There are 2 important things you need to keep in mind:

    1. Tsukishima can only insert his presence into your own past but that does not change the past of people who were in your past but were not cut by BoE.


    This is difficult to explain because it uses some crazy physics theory about parallel worlds. Simply put it means he can change the past that you experience but not the past of the friends who were with you at that time. Like he made it as if he really was with Inoue and Chad in SS helping to rescue Rukia. Thus they remember him. However Ichigo apparently does not although he was there as well. This is because Ichigo was not cut by BoE.

    2. There seems to be a limit to how much Tsukishima can manipulate someone's past.

    This isn't explicitly stated in the manga but I think it can be logically deduced. We know that Tsukishima cannot predict with 100% certainty how changing someone's past is going to affect their character in the future. If that were the case then why didn't he just do something with a high degreee of success against Byakuya? Like why didn't he just make himself Byakuya's father? After all he made himself replace Inoue's brother and Chad's uncle or granfather (I forgot which one he was).

    Although it's clearly not stated in the manga I think it relates to power. Since BoE lets Tsukishima become a part of someone's past the extent to which he can manipulate depends on what he can do. What I mean is that Tsukishima was able to replace Inoue's brother because he was stronger than him. So pretty much when he cut her he went ot the past and kill him and replaced him. When he cut Chad he did the same ot his uncle/grandfather. He couldn't do this with Byakuya because Byakuya's father was a VC. He probably didn't have the strength to kill him especially since Byakuya trained in SS where Shinigami are 5 times stronger due to no limiter. So yeah I think the most he could was become Byakuya's mentor because his strength could only allow him to do that much.

    But yeah in simple terms Book of End is like a Time Machine and Tsukishima can only change the past by as much as he, as an individual, is capable of.
    Last edited by DraMas26; March 15, 2013 at 09:53 PM.

  11. #265
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    I always assumed that Book of the End worked by manipulating the soul of an object, to "trick" the object/person to do his bidding.
    Basically like a type of brainwash or programming. I guess the reason why it works on lifeless objects is because they have "souls", which Fullbringers can manipulate.


    But anyway, I hope Tsukishima is a SWP! He almost brought Byakuya down.
    And he's done some training now.
    Last edited by Notak; March 15, 2013 at 11:30 PM.

  12. #266
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    I would like to see someone surprising as one of the SWP. But well, depends on what the purpose of the SWP should be. Until now, all the three don't have the strongest bonds to SS. Zaraki is a fighter, he is feared by the Central 46, if SS would be in his way he would just go against it(like he did when he was on Ichigos' side in the SS arc). Ichigo now learns that he's a part Quincy and now "real" Shinigami, he got thrown out by one of the Royal Guards and we all know that he sometimes can have some mental issues that could maybe lead to something. And if somebody for example shows him, that the Royal Guards are the "bad ones" I could imagine him going against them at least without directly wanting to bring down SS). And I don't think we have to talk about Aizen. ~ There are five Royal Guards and five SWPs. The quincy cross has five struts/braces. A coincidence? ~

    I could imagine Urahara being one of them, but somehow it would be really interesting if Tessai would be. From all we know from him he should be pretty strong and by far the best Kido User of all. Even having techniques that pass time and space. But it seems like Urahara didn't want him to join the fights until now ~ Urahara himself didn't go out in the past, too ~ neither did Yoruichi ~ that's pretty fishy, but well, that's another topic.

    It will be interesting to see what it is about the SWPs and who will join the three that we already knew.
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  13. #267
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    The 5 special war powers or special war weapons or special war potentials or special war threats or special war assets or whatever they are called in the numerous translations, are really thus far described as individuals with a special rep, thought to be powerful assets to join the forces of the Vandenreich. Each of these 5 may have a special assigned duty, specific in order to further ensure the success to accomplishing something for Juha and whatnot, but the basic concept of them being just 5 special individuals that are useful for Juha's team for a purpose should already be established.

    It's more than evident by now that it isn't just about powerful individuals who can oppose the forces of the Vandenreich alone, otherwise Yamamoto wouldn't have been excluded off the list & perhaps the listed names wouldn't be limited to just 5.

    Speaking off list, one of the names included must have been written off. That is Zaraki Kenpachi. The Kenpachi name suggest, the most prominent shinigami killer but like Juha emphasised after embarrassing Zaraki, it's really just a title he overrated to the max.

    Another Named potential could also be written off the list & that is, Kurosaki Ichigo. Juha is underestimating this guy more than he or even most (even the people in these forums) realise. He is underestimating his mindset, his resolve, his character, his bond with SS (he is the legendary hero) & even his power. It will bite him in the butt at a speed greater than lightning bolt.

    Maybe even Aizen could be written off the list because he basically gave the middle finger to Juha's request but perhaps a deal of some sort may have been made between them.

  14. #268
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    ^ Well, in Yama's case it's likely that he was excluded off the list simply because killing him was an absolute necessity for Bach. On a personal level, they have a grudge that's been simmering for 1000 years. We saw how much satisfaction Yama took in punishing RoydBach, I think it's likely Bach took the same pleasure in humiliating Yama with his scheme, slicing him in half, and then obliterating his corpse. Plus, having stolen Zanka no Tachi, the Vandenreich effectively have Yama's power in their control, only for Bach to use personally, so doing it the way they did is a win/win as far as he's concerned.

    But you could be right about each one having a special duty. Still, the 3 we know of already are all powerhouses or have the potential to become one. Aizen is above Captain-class, Zaraki is too now and whilst I'm not too sure where Ichigo's powers are at since he got them back, but he most certainly has the potential, as we've already witnessed. So given that there are 5 WPs and 5 Royal Guard I wouldn't be surprised if it is a simple power scale thing. But it could of course be more complicated than that. If it were just about power then what use are the Stern Ritter any more? Why have them steal Bankai if they're not going to use them?

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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    This is taken from http://bleachanime.org and all credit goes to Willster328.

    "I'd like to clarify something. There is a SERIOUS translation issue with "War Potentials" that we in this forum have taken at its strict English value, and interpreted it different ways.

    Unfortunately, I do not have a current link to the conversation Ryuutohime had with me on this.

    But her translation and analysis within the context, is that when Bach said "War Potentials" , he literally meant "Strong people who have the potential to alter the war".

    We coined the term "War Potential" because it was too long to write it the other way, and since then we have coined the term to be some kind of "special uniqueness" that these 5 people collectively possess. Where it's MUCH simpler than that.

    It's literally 5 people that Bach thinks would be game-changers in his attack plan. 5 people to watch out for."

    I don't think these 5 people are going to be joining the Vandenreich. Yama wasn't on the list because his mentality changed from 1000 years ago, but even if he was can people see him joining the Vandenreich.

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  17. #270
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: The 5 War Potentials

    ^That was always the understanding I had but maybe it's jsut because I read the RAW lol.

    However I do think that the 5 SWP are intended to aid the VR somehow simply because Bach already seems to have expressed interest inrecruiting the 3 we know so far.

    1. He told Kenpachi to 'sleep'. In light of how Kenpachi was shackled, this makes sense because Kenpachi sleeps then wakes up and gets stronger. Bach was disappointed by his strength so he wanted him to sleep and wake up stronger.

    2. He tried to recruit Aizen.

    3. He wanted to take Ichigo back ot VR and re-educate him. That's what he planned for Opie to do. Opie was supposed to put Ichigo in jail and bring him back to the VR but Opie got cocky.

    So yeah I think Bach is planning on using all the 5 SWP to his advantage. This doesn't necessarily mean that they will conciously help him. He might trick them into helping him. I do think he's going ot brainwash Ichigo into going to the dark side for a while at least simply because it's easy to mess up Ichigo's mind.

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