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Thread: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

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    Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Are you attempting to argue that they would have had to possess the Sharingan in order to manage against the Senju? That argument only works if you presume the Senju were stronger then regular Uchiha's without the Sharingan, which would then make your argument about the Sharingan's power moot. Both clans gain equal powers from the Rikudou Sennin, and one of the key marks of the Senju was the stamina they got, which is a factor in chakra production. And why would you presume there were so few Senju? It's obvious that the Senju clan would have been as big as the Uchiha clan, given they shared the same ancestral line.
    If it was equal, it would've ended there and I wouldn't dispute it here. It was equal when Naruto accessed Kurama's chakra to fight Sasuke's Sharingan for example. It doesn't justify having it evolve even further in response to Senju's massive chakra pool. Sharingan itself has an abundant of overpowering capabilities over the Senju and the only thing that kept them at odds. Saying that it does is like saying the Senju themselves had 1/4 of Kurama's chakra by default. Senju were masters of all skills but then it could be overridden with a blink of an eye. What do you think will happen in the long run? The increase in learning capacity itself would've out done the Senju in a few years after the awakening. Chakra pool does not in anyway makes someone powerful. Knowledge is power, guard it well.

    Obvious. We haven't seen any Senju shinobi with massive amount of chakra in the current crisis, only Tsunade. It's the Forth Shinobi World War. Don't expect me to believe they completely forgotten about their lineage when it has only been 3-4 generation. It's like saying an American didn't know they were involved in World War 2. And why is it obvious that they were just as big I wonder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Um, no. It says the technique would be instantly memorized, not that they would replicate them in an instant. The memorizing goes right back to their analytical ability. You can't argue that they are instantly copying techniques and then claim that they have to practice in order to prefect it. That's training. When Sasuke was taught the Great Fireball, he could make the signs and blow a little fire, but required training to produce the full effect. When Naruto learn the Rasengan, he could generate the sphere and rotation, but required more training to maintain it. This is called training. So if Sasuke required addition training to actually use the Chidori after learning it, that's training and the opposite of instantly replicating.

    How do you know there was no prior training? We know Sasuke was using it while they were in the forest, so he had plenty of time to practice it before using it against Yoroi. And you do realize that merely generating a lightning chakra flow would achieve the same result. It has nothing to do with the Chidori itself. That's not the Chidori itself. Chidori is, as mentioned, a thrusting attack at the highest speed.
    Just repetition (ignored): Are you mixing together Suikoudan no Jutsu and Suiryudan no Jutsu? If not, when was the first time we saw Kakashi use it? I couldn't recall.
    Again, I couldn't recall Sasuke training in the forest prior to the fight. They were busy fighting for their lives and as I recall, he passed out.

    Chidori. Sasuke stabbed Naruto Part I. Sasuke vs Bee Part II. No indication that it was required.
    And you do realize that merely generating a lightning chakra flow would achieve the same result.
    Just quoting you: Don't forget, the Chidori is derived from the Rasengan, meaning it's likely they would have involved the same learning steps.
    You just answered your own question me thinks. And I should mention how even a kekkei genkai jutsu could be copied and used without prior training http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c577/14.html
    As Gai said, it's just a simple stab. If taijutsu was required, why wasn't it classified as a nintaijutsu?

    Just as a missile is to a jet. A missile doesn't need a jet to show its offensive nature but a jet does. Ofcourse doesn't hold true if the pilot is going for a Kamikaze attack

  2. #2
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Can Naruto get even stronger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    1) I'm afraid not, Chakra Mode was permanent even if Kyuubi wouldn't become Naruto's friend.
    Simply put both would suck chakra from each other, Kyuubi's being >> Naruto in chakra would endanger Naruto's life.
    Never ever Bee or someone else talked about facing Kyuubi again
    2) I'm traveling so I'm posting on my iphone, will search/post the scan later
    3) The issue on Naruto's chakra consuming was after the fight with Nagato and Itachi, in which he didn't waste too much chakra to being with, since it was a team fight, 3 on 1
    4) Naruto fought only a battle in full Chakra Mode, in which he was aided by Bee and Itachi. The clone that defeated the Third Raikage even turned it off.
    As for Sasuke, the difference is in obtaining the ability:
    Naruto had to fight Kyuubi, Sasuke had to do nothing since Itachi pratically gifted the eye to him. Not only that, but he never lost for the supposed "side-effects"
    5) I believe Kyuubi isn't hate-free, are we all hate-free since we have friends? The Naruto that didn't give in to hate and pain and spared Nagato had an hate so strong it almost overwhelmed him, back in the waterfall.
    6) Remember? The war was originally fought to protect Bee and Naruto.
    Of the two, Bee was the only one capable of turning into Bijuu-Mode, and so was way stronger than Naruto in a battlefield outcome.
    Naruto was the key since he was the easiest one to capture and the one holding the strongest Bijuu. Against the supposed Madara, which had strong ties with the Kyuubi, it was imperative not to let him have Naruto and consequently Kyuubi
    1) It wasn't permanent, otherwise the Hachibi wouldn't have told Naruto that the chakra he had taken was limited an not to waste it. We were even told that between Kirabi and the Hachibi, they don't draw chakra from each other, but negotiate in giving over a portion. There would be no need to do so if they automatically were drawing in chakra from each other.
    2) -
    3) The issue goes all the way back to when he first gained it and was warned about it, since as been mentioned, he had already used up a bunch of it before continuously drawing upon it for training and jumping into battle, in addition to the division of chakra through clones.
    4) I must have missed the part where the Hachibi said Naruto only had to worry about the consequences in actual battle. The Hachibi stated using just the mode itself was dangerous and would lead to his death. And it has nothing to do with how the abilities were obtained, though you're convinteny forgetting that Sasuke still had to fight Itachi with all he had before he gained MS. Grabbing the Kyuubi's chakra was not the end of the danger. Naruto was specifically told there would be consequences after he gained the chakra if he wasn't careful same as with Sasuke and the MS. But unlike with Sasuke, where we saw suffering from said consequences and they actually fulfilled the purpose of explaining his next power-up, Naruto never had to deal with any of the consequences he was supposedly suppose to worry about. What's the point of side effects and limits if they never factor in? And I never said Naruto would have to lose due the effects, merely show them, though again I would point out that while Sasuke never outright lost, he came close to losing due to them which again served the purpose.
    5) We're not talking about the Kyuubi being hate-free, we're talking about the Kyuubi throwing it's hatred of Naruto away.
    6) Except being able to transform meant little against Akatsuki, as the Kages and Kirabi would have personally known. Besides, as I said before, it wouldn't have mattered anyway, since as far as they knew, "Madara" had to get the Hachibi before the Kyuubi anyway as far as they had seen. It wasn't as if just getting the Kyuubi would have been the end of things. A blow sure, but not the win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    One generally would use common sense, of course Kishi can make Konohamaru stronger than ET Madara, but readers would call bullshit.
    Izanami and Izanagi are different since they are reality-altering abilities, Sharingan speciality was never Genjutsu, Sharingan speciality was coping jutsus ( from the name of the eye, Sharingan = copying wheel eye ).
    Genjutsu-making was an useful side-ability back when the Sharingan was introduced, and all along part 1.

    If you ask me, Amaterasu and Susano'o too are asspulls since Sharingan can't normally spout fire from the eyes or create chakra constructs, like Kyuubi being capable of sensing negative energy, or Uzumaki being praised way more than Senjus for their body and vitality ( and having actually way more powerful bodies ) so Naruto can have a connection with Rikudou and a way out in case Kishi wants to extract Kyuubi, or Kabuto doing a milkshake of meat and blood and automatically obtaining the abilities of all those in the mix so he could subdue the Uchiha bros, and I can go on and on.

    Were they foreshadowed? Most of them. Are they believable? Not very much
    It's not about being stronger, it's about not knowing what someone can do til they show it. If we don't know what techniques a person knows or how many techniques they have, them showing a new one shouldn't be seen as an asspull.

    They're realty-altering abilities that possess a big cost and aren't exactly instant game winners against top tier opponents. And the Sharingan's specialty was shown genjutsu. It may have other abilities that don't involved genjutsu, but that doesn't change that some of the first abilities we saw were genjutsu/hypnosis based and that the most talked about feature is it's genjutsu power. Heck, the first MS technique we were shown was a genjutsu. Amaterasu and Susanoo all at least tie back in to it's connection to the Rinnegan and the Rikudou Sennin.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonshard View Post
    If it was equal, it would've ended there and I wouldn't dispute it here. It was equal when Naruto accessed Kurama's chakra to fight Sasuke's Sharingan for example. It doesn't justify having it evolve even further in response to Senju's massive chakra pool. Sharingan itself has an abundant of overpowering capabilities over the Senju and the only thing that kept them at odds. Saying that it does is like saying the Senju themselves had 1/4 of Kurama's chakra by default. Senju were masters of all skills but then it could be overridden with a blink of an eye. What do you think will happen in the long run? The increase in learning capacity itself would've out done the Senju in a few years after the awakening. Chakra pool does not in anyway makes someone powerful. Knowledge is power, guard it well.

    Obvious. We haven't seen any Senju shinobi with massive amount of chakra in the current crisis, only Tsunade. It's the Forth Shinobi World War. Don't expect me to believe they completely forgotten about their lineage when it has only been 3-4 generation. It's like saying an American didn't know they were involved in World War 2. And why is it obvious that they were just as big I wonder.
    What exactly are you talking about? The Sharingan and it's evolutions were in response to the Senju's chakra pool nor was such required to match them. You're trying to make them more overpowered then they actually are. We specifically know that exceptional speed is all that's needed to counter the Sharingan and it's evolutions, while merely having a partner deals with the issue of genjutsu. We've seen this in the series itself. Even the likes of MS/EMS aren't so overpowered that they're unbeatable. Any high level ninja wold be able to manage enough against them as is being shown. So it's hardly as unbalanced as you seem to think, especially when factoring in the descending rarity of each stage and the fact that gaining MS and EMS meant that the Uchiha's themselves would have been eliminating equally powerful ninjas without the Senju needing to fight.

    Perhaps that's because simply being a Senju isn't what currently matters. There's a reason Hashirama is the most famous Senju and most involved in the plot. And it's obvious they were big because they were a "clan" and even with the Uchiha and Uzumaki. Why would their two cousin clans be big and them small?

    Quote Originally Posted by moonshard View Post
    Just repetition (ignored): Are you mixing together Suikoudan no Jutsu and Suiryudan no Jutsu? If not, when was the first time we saw Kakashi use it? I couldn't recall.
    Again, I couldn't recall Sasuke training in the forest prior to the fight. They were busy fighting for their lives and as I recall, he passed out.

    Chidori. Sasuke stabbed Naruto Part I. Sasuke vs Bee Part II. No indication that it was required.
    And you do realize that merely generating a lightning chakra flow would achieve the same result.
    Just quoting you: Don't forget, the Chidori is derived from the Rasengan, meaning it's likely they would have involved the same learning steps.
    You just answered your own question me thinks. And I should mention how even a kekkei genkai jutsu could be copied and used without prior training http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c577/14.html
    As Gai said, it's just a simple stab. If taijutsu was required, why wasn't it classified as a nintaijutsu?

    Just as a missile is to a jet. A missile doesn't need a jet to show its offensive nature but a jet does. Ofcourse doesn't hold true if the pilot is going for a Kamikaze attack
    No.

    Busy fighting for their lives? Um, no, they weren't that busy. It wasn't as if they were continuously fighting the entire time. There was more down time then action time since they were in there for five whole days.

    Right, because that's how Chidori was conceived to be used. You're mistaking using it in an unconventional way for the standard way it's used. In addition, as mentioned before, if Sasuke needed to practice before he could fully use it, that's training and goes against your claim. And no, the paralyzing effect was due to the lightning nature, not the Chidori itself. Paralyzing is inherent to any lightning technique. What are you talking about? A Bloodline Limit can't be copied. And perhaps because nintaijutsu was only recently introduced? But we know from seeing the Sandaime Raikage's Hellstab it would be.

    Also, a missile does need a jet to show it's offensive, as being shot from a jet is the only way it can be used offensively.

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    Sweaty Re: Can Naruto get even stronger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    What exactly are you talking about? The Sharingan and it's evolutions were in response to the Senju's chakra pool nor was such required to match them. You're trying to make them more overpowered then they actually are. We specifically know that exceptional speed is all that's needed to counter the Sharingan and it's evolutions, while merely having a partner deals with the issue of genjutsu. We've seen this in the series itself. Even the likes of MS/EMS aren't so overpowered that they're unbeatable. Any high level ninja wold be able to manage enough against them as is being shown. So it's hardly as unbalanced as you seem to think, especially when factoring in the descending rarity of each stage and the fact that gaining MS and EMS meant that the Uchiha's themselves would have been eliminating equally powerful ninjas without the Senju needing to fight.

    Perhaps that's because simply being a Senju isn't what currently matters. There's a reason Hashirama is the most famous Senju and most involved in the plot. And it's obvious they were big because they were a "clan" and even with the Uchiha and Uzumaki. Why would their two cousin clans be big and them small?
    So far how many were able to break MS/EMS 3 asspull jutsu? Amaterasu: A; Susanoo: A, Tsunade and Oonoki; Tsukiyomi: Jinchuriki else None. 2 out 3 were Kage level. Even with his exclusive kekkei genkai Hashirama was evenly matched to Madara's EMS. Having the Sharingan is already enough to counter Senju's chakra pool. The Sharingan made the Uchiha able to stand up to the Senju and not The Sharingan and its evolution. As the Sharingan made the Uchiha able to rival Senju, Mangekyou Sharingan will just tip the scales. Therefore how is it favorable to the Senju?

    And perhaps because they had enourmous ammount of chakra reserve that we haven't seen them blow enemy to pieces. No war entries too. And why couldn't they be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    No.

    Busy fighting for their lives? Um, no, they weren't that busy. It wasn't as if they were continuously fighting the entire time. There was more down time then action time since they were in there for five whole days.

    Right, because that's how Chidori was conceived to be used. You're mistaking using it in an unconventional way for the standard way it's used. In addition, as mentioned before, if Sasuke needed to practice before he could fully use it, that's training and goes against your claim. And no, the paralyzing effect was due to the lightning nature, not the Chidori itself. Paralyzing is inherent to any lightning technique. What are you talking about? A Bloodline Limit can't be copied. And perhaps because nintaijutsu was only recently introduced? But we know from seeing the Sandaime Raikage's Hellstab it would be.

    Also, a missile does need a jet to show it's offensive, as being shot from a jet is the only way it can be used offensively.
    3 instance shows how Chidori does not require taijutus to function: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v26/c227/23.html, http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v44/c411/16.html and http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v44/c412/14.html. Doesn't explain why he performed handseals on the sword part and screamed "Chidori!" on the electrocution part instead of "generating a lightning chakra flow would achieve the same result. He used Chidori. It's like implying that Chidori went by another name when used unconventionally.

    No proof indicated Sasuke's prior training inside the forest, mostly downtime speculation by disregarding Forest of Death natural threat, looming shinobi hostiles, recuperating and it's already been day 4, no scroll with still a lot of ground to cover. As Kakashi describe it, acknowledgement from Sasuke on the matter and Gai's comment on Sasuke's raw talent coupled. Page 13, 14 and 16 respectively. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v08/c068/13.html. No prior training.

    Lightning Release (雷遁, Raiton; English TV "Lightning Style") is one of the basic elemental nature transformation techniques that allows the user to generate lightning by increasing the high frequency vibrations of their chakra, allowing for piercing damage and fast movement. Source: naruto.wikia.com

    If Chidori required Taijutsu, the above statement would be inaccurate as the lightning itself would have increased Sasuke's speed. The Taijutsu training was to increase Sasuke's speed greatly: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v13/c113/9.html, as Lee's initial problem with keeping up with Gaara offensive defense: Page 7 to 11. Sasuke couldn't even hold a stick to Lee with weights on: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v05/c037/18.html. Also it was said by Gai that Kakashi devoted all of their time to Taijutsu training with Kakashi varifying it: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v13/c113/9.html - This is the basis of my claim that Chidori was copied, quoting Kakashi: "He is the same type as me." Too much and the skin peels off http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v17/c146/12.html although insufficient is open for debate. Like I said, usage efficiency. I believe there's a word to describe it, Calibration or Tuning, sorry English isn't my 1st language. Bare with me.

    And I see you didn't even bother reading my sentence FULLY and looking at the page which I was referring it to. Madara takes the word "can't" into a whole new level. (In regards to "impossibility" for Sharingan to copy Kekkei Genkai Jutsu) Analogically speaking it's like an encryption, you'd need the knowledge and software for decryption.

    No. a missile can be fired by alternative means other than by jet. Still offensive.

  4. #4
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Can Naruto get even stronger?

    Quote Originally Posted by moonshard View Post
    So far how many were able to break MS/EMS 3 asspull jutsu? Amaterasu: A; Susanoo: A, Tsunade and Oonoki; Tsukiyomi: Jinchuriki else None. 2 out 3 were Kage level. Even with his exclusive kekkei genkai Hashirama was evenly matched to Madara's EMS. Having the Sharingan is already enough to counter Senju's chakra pool. The Sharingan made the Uchiha able to stand up to the Senju and not The Sharingan and its evolution. As the Sharingan made the Uchiha able to rival Senju, Mangekyou Sharingan will just tip the scales. Therefore how is it favorable to the Senju?

    And perhaps because they had enourmous ammount of chakra reserve that we haven't seen them blow enemy to pieces. No war entries too. And why couldn't they be?
    You're doing it again. You're making it sound as if you believe that the Uchiha clan could only match the Senju clan because of the Sharingan, which brings us right back to the whole rarity issue. If only a portion of the clan could awaken the Sharingan, then wouldn't the Senju have had the advantage of numbers going by your belief? We were specifically told that fighting a Sharingan user involved having a partner, and that was said by an non-Senju. Then there's the issue of gaining MS, which required them to be responsible for an ally's death, meaning that in exchange for the MS there would be one less Uchiha combatant. In addition, the more times MS was used, the faster they would go blind, as showed by Sasuke, meaning that they could only use it in a few fights before they lost their sight and no longer was as dangerous. Unless they took the MS from another to gain EMS, meaning that for every EMS user, that meant the death of another strong Uchiha. Meanwhile the Senju had nothing depleting their numbers outside of battle, thus they maintain their numbers while the number of strong Sharingan user's would have shrunk.

    And you seem to have forgotten that not every Uchiha would have access to those three MS techniques. In fact, we know that possessing Susanoo was exceedingly rare among those who awoke MS. Or the fact that since MS techniques are costly, they can only be used a limited number of times and each use involves physical pain.

    Or maybe it's because we haven't seen much of anyone battling outside key characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonshard View Post
    3 instance shows how Chidori does not require taijutus to function: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v26/c227/23.html, http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v44/c411/16.html and http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v44/c412/14.html. Doesn't explain why he performed handseals on the sword part and screamed "Chidori!" on the electrocution part instead of "generating a lightning chakra flow would achieve the same result. He used Chidori. It's like implying that Chidori went by another name when used unconventionally.

    No proof indicated Sasuke's prior training inside the forest, mostly downtime speculation by disregarding Forest of Death natural threat, looming shinobi hostiles, recuperating and it's already been day 4, no scroll with still a lot of ground to cover. As Kakashi describe it, acknowledgement from Sasuke on the matter and Gai's comment on Sasuke's raw talent coupled. Page 13, 14 and 16 respectively. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v08/c068/13.html. No prior training.

    Lightning Release (雷遁, Raiton; English TV "Lightning Style") is one of the basic elemental nature transformation techniques that allows the user to generate lightning by increasing the high frequency vibrations of their chakra, allowing for piercing damage and fast movement. Source: naruto.wikia.com

    If Chidori required Taijutsu, the above statement would be inaccurate as the lightning itself would have increased Sasuke's speed. The Taijutsu training was to increase Sasuke's speed greatly: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v13/c113/9.html, as Lee's initial problem with keeping up with Gaara offensive defense: Page 7 to 11. Sasuke couldn't even hold a stick to Lee with weights on: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v05/c037/18.html. Also it was said by Gai that Kakashi devoted all of their time to Taijutsu training with Kakashi varifying it: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v13/c113/9.html - This is the basis of my claim that Chidori was copied, quoting Kakashi: "He is the same type as me." Too much and the skin peels off http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v17/c146/12.html although insufficient is open for debate. Like I said, usage efficiency. I believe there's a word to describe it, Calibration or Tuning, sorry English isn't my 1st language. Bare with me.

    And I see you didn't even bother reading my sentence FULLY and looking at the page which I was referring it to. Madara takes the word "can't" into a whole new level. (In regards to "impossibility" for Sharingan to copy Kekkei Genkai Jutsu) Analogically speaking it's like an encryption, you'd need the knowledge and software for decryption.

    No. a missile can be fired by alternative means other than by jet. Still offensive.
    Again, using it in an unconventional way does not mean that's how he was taught, thus the whole "unconventional" thing. Um, the increase in speed is clearly a reference to what Ee and his father showed, that covering their body in lightning enhanced their speed. Sasuke doesn't cover his body in lightning, so he would have no way to enhance his speed with just that. And there was more then just taijutsu training. We saw them during training, and Sasuke practicing the Chidori, which is how he learn his limit was two a day. As I pointed out with Sasuke's Great Fireball and Naruto's Rasengan, "usage efficiency", "calibrating", and "tuning" are all what training involves. If Sasuke was incapable of using the copied techniques perfectly right off the bat and had to take the time and effort to refine their usage, then that would be him training and showing that a regular Uchiha didn't just see a ninjutsu and instantly pop it out.

    There's no proof that he wasn't training either. There's no disregarding the threats, which would have actually assisted in his training, as shown when he rescued Karin. The point remains that the amount of time they weren't in danger or recuperating, when Sasuke had gone off on his own, that he could have been practicing. We actually saw him do so several times before they had finished the exam. And Gai's words pretty much suggest there was training, especially when added to what we saw with Karin. He states even with the Sharingan it wouldn't be possible to do without training.

    I read the sentences and looked at the link, and I see nothing proving otherwise. I don;t even know how Dan's comment matters. Regardless, Madara didn't copy a Bloodline Limit with his Sharingan, he had to physically gain the Dna for it in order to actually use it. Not a missile made for a jet. A missile made to be used with something else would be used like that, but it couldn't be used with a jet in the first place. Missiles and rockets are design to specifically be used with certain things and can't just be switched around to be used on other things. Same with how most bullets can't be used without the correct gun.

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    Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    I've been reading the manga for 6 years and coming to this site for over 2 years now and this arc completely threw me off track. My question to you all is how did madara lose? So far he's tore up the entire ninja war with the most hax op abilities on the market and yet he lost...? I'll list out their abilities to show you what im seeing.

    Madara: EMS, 300 foot dual bladed Susano'o, Fire Jutsu, crazy fighting abilities and kyuubi summon

    Hashirama: wood jutsu, healing, crazy strength and tailed beast control

    So how did he win? I understand that he took away the kyuubi but madara has giant tengu that could take out a mountain in one swing...

    Hashirama has wood jutsu but madara uses fire and has the amaterasu and tsukyomi... My brain hurts.

    It doesnt make sense. AT ALL. Seems to me that Kishimoto cant write a story or has an uchiha fetish. The senju we're supposed to be their equals among skill and power but yet we've seen nothing and they are nowhere to be found. The Uchiha got the sages spiritual abilites and powerful chakra so i wont complain about them as all their MS and EMS techs are named after the gods but where are the senjus? where are their special abilities?They were said to gain the sages physical energy and life force so how come they have no bad ass techs? They have no defining trait, no special techs, no nothing and on top of that they are nowhere to be found even though they help build the village. They are said to be one of the two strongest clans but they haven't even shown it. I know about the first and second hokage and they were beast but when you compare them to what we're seeing now it looks like the uchiha should've ruled the world by now. Madara fought an entire squad and 5 kages and is yawning about it, Hashirama and Tobirama couldnt even take an elderly 3rd... wtf? How? Was madara sick? did he come down with a sudden flu in the middle of the fight? did he suddenly realize he left his stove on then got sucker punched? The way i see it is hashirama shouldve lost that fight within 5 minutes. you can say that madara lost the fight on purpose to gain his power but he couldve killed him and gained it that way. It just doesnt look or feel right.

    can someone explain to me how so my headache from this chapter goes away?
    Last edited by Kid Chameleone; June 07, 2012 at 08:25 AM.

  6. #6
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Akabeth's Avatar
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    This discussion will never end because Hashirama's soul was sealed by Hiruzen-dono, thus unavailable for hire. The only way we can get more info is through flashbacks as no amount of asspulling will compare Naruto and Sasuke to those two -- too much history.
    "Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile." Albert Einstein

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Socrates's Avatar
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBQlJS4z3TA

    than you will understand it.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Kid Chameleone's Avatar
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    It doesn't.

    1 min in madara destorys his wood with a basic fire ball. http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/560/5, here it took 6 shinobi to counter his one fire move and where was this giant susano'o? If it was a basic sasuke or itachi size i would understand if he beat it but this thing is bigger than the meteor and took out a mountain in one swing lol he said it himself that it has just as much or even more power than a bijuu so how did hashirama win when madara has 2 bijuu strength super powers along with EMS? It made sense before because they were both direct descendants or the sage and were both the strongest in their clans but kishimoto keeps adding new abilities to the uchiha every week and while the senju have produced nothing in the current timeline of the story. It didnt bother me till i saw his susano'o thats when my problem sparked if it was itachi or sasuke sized it wouldnt bother me as danzo blow a hole in sasukes with strategy and the kages broke madaras basic one with pure strength. but madaras is a giant that took out a mountain in one swing, so what would happen if it started swinging at hashirama? death? trees arent as sturdy as mountains lol theres no defence against something that bad ass and he stands on its head, he has the advantage of range due to his fire techs along with giant blades soooooo how did he win?

    ---------- Post added at 07:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 AM ----------

    oh yeah and dont forget the guy can summon meteors

  9. #9
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member R3D's Avatar
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Susano and kyuubi are allergic to wood ....

    oh , and will of fire

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    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Kishi hit a giant wall concerning Hashirama, since he probably didn't expect his manga turning out from being a ninja vs ninja to being godzilla vs mazinger when he used him back in Part 1 against Hiruzen.
    Just to say, until the third Databook Mokuton was considered an Hijutsu, not even a Gekkei Kenkai.

    Kishi basically screwed it up with both Senjus and Hashirama:
    -Hashirama is the only Senju having Mokuton and apparently having inherited Rikudou's Body.
    -We don't know how a Senju body is any better than a normal body other than having more chakra.
    -The only Senju we know of are Hokages, the rest of the clan disappeared from history, which is unbelievable since they rivaled the Uchiha in both power and numbers, and we don't know of any Senju genocide, which is the reason why Uchihas are reduced only to Tobi ( if he's an Uchiha ) and Sasuke today.
    Considering that every other clan prospered in Konoha, I doubt Senju would've died out.
    -Uzumakis are basically what the Senju would have to be:
    the most powerful bodies out there, they have longevity unlike any other and a most special chakra, to the point that an Uzumaki ( Naruto and/or Nagato ) has the biggest chakra pool in the manga bar Hashirama probably, another Uzumaki ( Kushina ) has a chakra so special that she can effortlessy suppress the strongest bijuu with a phenomenon a Rin'negan user used, while another Uzumaki ( Karin ) has uber innate regenerative abilities.
    Out of those Uzumakis, 2 are sensors ( Karin, Nagato ) while Naruto in sage mode is the best sensor alive, him sensing the entire battlefield.
    And also they were sealing masters, to the point they had to be wiped out, for they were such a big threat.
    -It was such a retcon that Kishi had to furiosly give Hashirama a ton of hax in the space of 3-4 chapters, Flower World, ultra Regeneration without hand-seals, you name it, Hashirama has it.
    Again it is only a trait of Hashirama, not Senjus.

    As for why Senju didn't got stomped, it comes down to this:
    we saw many Uchihas, a majority of which were total, utter noobs. Fodder. Itachi said so himself, they grew arrogant since they have the most haxed Gekkei Kenkai in the Narutoverse, thus it made them easy picking.
    Remember Sasuke vs Lee? Hell remember Obito? Those 3 Uchiha officers Itachi shrugged off? Sasuke's father? We are seeing the pinnacles of Uchiha in action ( Madara, Itachi, Sasuke ) but, as it stands, they probably weren't any good, while Senju were known as a clan of 100 jutsus, they are apparently excellent jutsu-makers:
    Tobirama invented Edo Tensei, had extensive knowledge of S/T jutsus ( Yondaime compared him to himself when he said that Tobi was superior to them ), Tsunade is the best medic in history, managed to replicate Hashirama's healing herself and invented a jutsu that can 1HKO almost 90% of the narutoverse with a single punch, and they did this all by themselves.
    Not gonna explain why Senju are this mistreated, since they basically received nothing from their Rikudou inheritance, but it explains why they didn't get destroyed

  11. #11
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    It likely came down to numbers. As strong as the Sharingan and it's evolution are, they were availible to only a handful of the entire clan, meaning that most of the Uchiha soldiers the Senju fought wouldn't have had the advantages granted by them. When you factor in that MS and EMS would have required the death of another clansman and another Uchiha who possessed MS respectively, that MS was shown to bring blindness after three or four battles in a row and between the pain and chakra cost was limited their usage, and the whole situation over the usage of Izanagi and Izanami, and it's clear that the Uchiha's were just as much their own enemies as the Senju were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    As for why Senju didn't got stomped, it comes down to this:
    we saw many Uchihas, a majority of which were total, utter noobs. Fodder. Itachi said so himself, they grew arrogant since they have the most haxed Gekkei Kenkai in the Narutoverse, thus it made them easy picking.
    Remember Sasuke vs Lee? Hell remember Obito? Those 3 Uchiha officers Itachi shrugged off? Sasuke's father? We are seeing the pinnacles of Uchiha in action ( Madara, Itachi, Sasuke ) but, as it stands, they probably weren't any good, while Senju were known as a clan of 100 jutsus, they are apparently excellent jutsu-makers:
    Tobirama invented Edo Tensei, had extensive knowledge of S/T jutsus ( Yondaime compared him to himself when he said that Tobi was superior to them ), Tsunade is the best medic in history, managed to replicate Hashirama's healing herself and invented a jutsu that can 1HKO almost 90% of the narutoverse with a single punch, and they did this all by themselves.
    Not gonna explain why Senju are this mistreated, since they basically received nothing from their Rikudou inheritance, but it explains why they didn't get destroyed
    While I understand what you're trying to say, about the rest of the clan not measuring up to the top elite we're seeing, how has what we've seen from them not been good or made them noobs? That doesn't make much sense considering they were rivals to the Senju clan and dangerous enough that their coup would have lead to trouble for the entire nation. I mean, Lee and Itachi aren't exactly your standard opponents, so losing to them isn't exactly a sign of weakness. And as far as we saw, when he got it together, Obito fought evenly alongside Kakashi. So while the majority of the clan wouldn't have been as stellar as Itachi or Madara, they likely were still enough to handle most regular ninjas.

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    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    While I understand what you're trying to say, about the rest of the clan not measuring up to the top elite we're seeing, how has what we've seen from them not been good or made them noobs? That doesn't make much sense considering they were rivals to the Senju clan and dangerous enough that their coup would have lead to trouble for the entire nation. I mean, Lee and Itachi aren't exactly your standard opponents, so losing to them isn't exactly a sign of weakness. And as far as we saw, when he got it together, Obito fought evenly alongside Kakashi. So while the majority of the clan wouldn't have been as stellar as Itachi or Madara, they likely were still enough to handle most regular ninjas.
    But Senjus weren't a normal clan, that is my point.
    I'll explain better:

    let's take again the example of Sasuke vs Lee. Now I agree that Lee wasn't your average Genin, but do take into account that Sasuke wasn't either, Sasuke was a genius, a prodigy, by both ninja and Uchiha standards, even without the Sharingan, Kakashi commented on it, we saw it against the Mizu Brothers and vs Haku that Sasuke too wasn't your average Genin.
    Now take into account, other than the fact, as you well said, that not many Uchihas awoke the Sharingan ( I can't actually see a Sharingan-less Uchiha fighting though, like I can't see a Byakugan-less Hyuuga fighting ), that Sasuke was an elite, thus it is safe to assume that the average Uchiha was weaker.
    Take into account too that Senju likely knew about Sharingan's "weaknesses" such as the blind spot and the not catching their eyesight having fought them time and time again, and that Senju were probably a clan full of talented people that excelled in all aspects of being a Shinobi ( if I remember right, Tobirama in the databook is said to love training his physique for taijutsu ) in a clan that passed down a lot of great jutsus.

    You see for yourself that, despite having a great advantage with the Sharingan, Uchihas grew compiacent, or were arrogant, or simply didn't believe they needed to train their body. Obito keeping up with Kakashi was more them double-teaming the guy and Kakashi being half-blind that being his equal, both were outskilled by that Iwa Jounin so they worked together. Teamwork, not superior individual skills.
    Dunno, I can't think of the majority of Uchihas as nothing more than fodders, elite fodders, true, but fodders altogether. Maybe back in the days they were more sharp than their recent times, true, but consider that they were gifted with one of the strongest Gekkei Kenkai to date even without evolving into Mangekyo, I just can't see how they didn't destroyed Senjus or any other clan if they were good ninjas as well.

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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    The situation with Lee though was due to his condition, which forced him to go through intense training. More so then anyone else, including Sasuke. That sort of feat isn't something the majority of ninjas would possess. Lacking the Sharingan wouldn't have taken away from their ability to fight, like lacking the Byakugan would do to a Hyuuga, since the Sharingan doesn't physically grant them strength. As we saw with Sasuke, fighting without the Sharingan was fully possible, even against stronger opponents. The average Uchiha being weaker then the elite of the clan would still put them over the majority of ninjas. And I doubt knowing the weaknesses of the Sharingan would have meant much. We've already seen how ineffective that is in the present day. Not to mention, if the regular Uchiha were so low in skills and knowing the weaknesses of the Sharingan was enough, then Konoha wouldn't have had much to fear from the Uchiha clan's attempted coup, especially since the entire Konoha force had to have outnumbered them by quit a bit.

    I really don't see anything to suggest that they became compliant or decided they didn't need training anymore. Everything we've seen implies they were just as feared and respected as they had always been. Double teaming someone still would require even enough skills, else one would hold the other down. And Kakashi didn't seem at all physically affected by the lack of one eye. Anyway, you could look at it that way, but in the reverse also. They couldn't have been that much of fodder if they were still able to rival the Senju clan even though only a portion of the clan actually had the advantage of the Sharingan and such, and they couldn't have gone down that much in strength since the time of Madara if Konoha considered them such a threat that they all had to be eliminated. They may not have been of the level of Itachi or Madara, but they mustn't have been mere average to leave the impressions they did.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    anyway a random point

    i would think the senju were extremely gifted in using chakra too

    hashirama was good at using medical ninjutsu and tobirama at space time, both of which are high-end ninjutsu that are hard to use

    they're pretty gifted at chakra use

    in this regard, for some reason the uzumakis we've seen are merely dumbasses who only got the stamina/chakra while senju got that and gifted chakra usage

    ---------- Post added at 05:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone View Post
    It doesn't.

    1 min in madara destorys his wood with a basic fire ball. http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/560/5, here it took 6 shinobi to counter his one fire move and where was this giant susano'o? If it was a basic sasuke or itachi size i would understand if he beat it but this thing is bigger than the meteor and took out a mountain in one swing lol he said it himself that it has just as much or even more power than a bijuu so how did hashirama win when madara has 2 bijuu strength super powers along with EMS? It made sense before because they were both direct descendants or the sage and were both the strongest in their clans but kishimoto keeps adding new abilities to the uchiha every week and while the senju have produced nothing in the current timeline of the story. It didnt bother me till i saw his susano'o thats when my problem sparked if it was itachi or sasuke sized it wouldnt bother me as danzo blow a hole in sasukes with strategy and the kages broke madaras basic one with pure strength. but madaras is a giant that took out a mountain in one swing, so what would happen if it started swinging at hashirama? death? trees arent as sturdy as mountains lol theres no defence against something that bad ass and he stands on its head, he has the advantage of range due to his fire techs along with giant blades soooooo how did he win?

    ---------- Post added at 07:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 AM ----------

    oh yeah and dont forget the guy can summon meteors
    1) wood isn't gasoline. fire doesn't burn wood instantly. it just scalds the surface tops on quick exposure. hashirama could generate plenty of wood and perhaps use that scalded/glowing wood against madara himself.
    2) much of madara's capabilities come from his unlimited chakra right now anyway. we're not sure how much, but what he's showing now could not be accurate representations of his skills. uchihas have chakra sapping skills that damage greatly, but are limited by their chakra stores, they make great edo tensei targets compared with the senju
    3) summoning a meteor would have killed madara without hurting hashirama much. the kages survived the meteor, it's simple to see how hashirama could survive it. also any damage they receive would have been healed by hashirama while madara would just incur them for the rest of the fight. that move was inapplicable in the hashirama v madra fight

  15. #15
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted gnut's Avatar
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    Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

    i've been wondering what madara's comment to the kages meant..."only hashirama can stop me...but he's not in this world anymore.plus ,i should say it's probably a good thing for you that he is not here".
    then precedes to chop up some moutains(iron chef style)....
    does this mean ,when him and hashirama got together.they truely changed the landscape(shiznit)!!!

    now,he says only hashirama could stop him(now)...what...with rinnegan and being undead/immortal...what???
    i keep hearing people say how did hashirama win?remember,madara did not awaken the rinnegan until shortly before his death(by his own words).now i would asume that madara judged/read the power of hashirama way back when...so to say this statement,says volumes toward hashirama's power/skill/longevity.

    now i know translations are differently worded sometimes...but i would think this"hashirama is the only one who can stop me"...would be the same no matter how it is/was worded(ex.nothing can stop me but hashirama).so,once again...he says this now even with perfect susanoo...and people wonder how he won.
    here's another good one...how the hell did kakazu get away from hashirama(he probably cried like a baby...poor kakazu)


    a side thought...if tobi was madara,or should i say if madara wanted to take revenge on the uchiha and konoha...why wouldn't he just walk into konoha with perfect susanoo...the comment when he first came back about this was nagato's doing.makes me wonder who tobi is even more...not what he's made up from...i want to know who the shinobi is underneath the mask.i'm really thinking he's an uzumaki...and his tech along with kakashi's says alot to(i know that everyone knows this)but even tobi using rinnegan(having trouble compared to pein and madara)and just swopping out eyes like it ain't nothing(lol).sounds kinda uzumakish to me....sorry,forgot about the chains(that no other uchiha has displayed)
    Look around you carefully. Strain your eyes at the darkness around us... At the darkness around me. You said anywhere but here. This is where, here, at the border. Gathered by the winds. Those who have met their final destiny hanging between jealousy and regret. Those who failed, swept together here. You say it doesnt matter where. If you follow me, this is where you'll go. This is your eden.

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