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Thread: Identity crisis: the connection between Tobi, Madara, Nagato and...?

  1. #1
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Identity crisis: the connection between Tobi, Madara, Nagato and...?

    There have been similair posts, and we'll likely soon find out the truth. I've looked at it from many angles and finally decided to share my ideas, what I think happened with the characters of Madara and Tobi, and their connection with Nagato. This is gonna be a log post with several manga references, posting a lot of established facts and speculation on my part.

    So with Madara Uchiha being the secret Edo Tensei of Kabuto, the age-old discussion of Tobi's true identity was rekindled. Just who is he, if he isn't Madara?

    1: Nagato's Rinnegan
    Although Tobi claimed ownership over the Rinnegan, stating that he gave it to Nagato, it was a lie. It was Madara Uchiha who gave his own, newly awakened Rinnegan to Nagato (who was compatible as an Uzumaki thus a descendant of the Rikudo), shortly before his death. When Madara was summoned, he refered to Nagato. http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/559/2
    This page suggests that Madara thought he was resurrected, but not by Edo Tensei. Now I refer to Tobi's statement here: http://www.mangareader.net/93-458-17...apter-453.html
    If Madara had the Rinnegan, he knew of the Rinne Rebirth. The Rinnegan he aquired just before his death. He must have given it to Nagato in the hopes of being resurrected by him, eventually. But that never happened. Nagato sacrificed himself for Konoha and Tobi claimed the Rinnegan for himself.
    Speaking of Tobi and the Rinnegan, there are a few things I like to point out. For one the difference between the way Tobi wields it and how Madara wields it. They are fundamentally different. Madara can keep Rinnegan active and use Sharingan Jutsu at the same time. Tobi has one Sharingan (his right eye, the one he is never without), one Rinnegan. This suggests Tobi has not naturally mastered Rinnegan.
    Secondly, an important clue: Tobi is compatible with Rinnegan. This leads to a vital aspect in determining his identity.

    2. His clan
    Compatibility with Rinnegan means he is a part of the Rikudo's lineage. That in turn means he belongs to one of three clans: Uchiha, Senju or Uzumaki. Let's break this down.
    He's not Senju. He has injected himself with Senju cells (those of Hashirama to be precise, he keeps him stuck in a tree). http://www.mangareader.net/93-57473-...apter-510.html
    He's likely not Uzumaki. Most have red hair, Naruto being the only exception do far. Nagato, Kushina, Mito and Karin are all red headed. This makes him being an Uzumaki unlikely.
    This suggests he is a true Uchiha after all, which can be backed up by several hints. For one, his mastery over Sharingan. Only Uchiha have been shown capable of maintaining Sharingan without being drained of chakra, wether the Sharingan is transplanted (Sasuke, Madara) or not (Itachi). I believe Tobi's current right eye is transplanted, which I'll come back to later. Now Tobi has always maintained his right Sharingan, he is never seen without it. Plus he could handle the Senju power he implanted, while Danzo could not fully contain it. He intimately knows the uchiha's deepest secrets, including Madara's history and secrets (such as the Nagato story).

    3. The Tobito theory and Mangekyo Sharingan
    Obito and Tobi one and the same person? Highly unlikely. Too many points contradict this theory, and I'm not going to bother naming them all, from age discrepancies to smashed bodies. Kishimoto has to really write himself out of serious plot inconsistencies to make this fit. So I am not going to explore this further, except for one curious element that probito theories use. The infamous right eye debacle. While I'm quite sure Tobi isn't Obito, I am also equally convinced of Tobi's right eye originally belonging to Obito. Let's delve into some Sharingan technicalities.
    If we look at the Mangekyo Sharingan, we can see certain jutsu. I'll list them all:

    -Amaterasu: Ninjutsu shown to be present in one eye of both Sasuke and Itachi
    -Tsukuyomi: Gejutsu shown to be present in the other eye of Sasuke and Itachi
    -Susano'o: Ninjutsu shown to be present in both eyes of Madara, Sasuke and Itachi
    -Amatsu no Kami: Genjutsu unique to Shisui, present in both eyes.
    -Kamui: Space-time ninjutsu unique to Kakashi thus Obito's left eye.

    It's interesting to note that Tobi's special teleportation jutsu is a space-time ninjutsu. And Tobi always has his right Sharingan active. I believe Tobi took Obito's right eye and awakened the second Mangekyo jutsu residing in it, a sister jutsu to Kamui. Just why I think he transplanted this Sharingan will come to light later in this post. I also want to add that Tobi has several shelves filled with jars containing Sharingan, presumably taken during the Uchiha massacre.


    To recap so far: Tobi is almost certainly a true Uchiha, did not awaken his own Rinnegan, possibly owns Obito's right eye though he cannot possibly be Obito. Add to that his power. Though not nearly as powerful as Madara, he has proven to be quite a powerful Uchiha nonetheless. He mastered several powerful Sharingan abilities (possibly including Mangekyo if te Obito eye assumption is correct). He could battle Minato and defeated the likes of Konan. Combined with Rinnegan, he has shown himself as one of the more powerful characters in the series so far. Not only is he a powerful Uchiha, he is also quite old, and has sustained his life by tinkering around with his body, such as injecting himself with the potent life force of the Senju, replacing eyes and possibly even limbs. He also has detailed knowledge of all the Uchiha's secrets, and knows a lot about Madara's life. This helped the mysterious person known as Tobi to adopt the name of Madara and play his role convincingly from behind a mask he wears to conceal the fact that he is not the legendary clansman. I would like to add my believe that Kishimoto isn't such a poor author that he, against conventional author wisdom, reveals Tobi as a completely unknown character. Whoever he is, it is pretty much certain that we have already seen or heard about the true man behind the mask.
    This all leads me to speculate to a certain individual who, if above stories hold true, is most likely to be Tobi. I am going to write a sort of history for this person, using the material I wrote earlier in the post, in order to reconstruct a possible story of a mentally unstable person with identity issues. Now this is not going to be a shocker, because several people have already coined this one, but most posts did not adress enough issues. So here goes nothing:


    The history of Izuna Uchiha, psychopathic brother to Madara
    Once upon a time, as you know, during an era of battle, the two most powerful ninja clans, Uchiha and Senju, both descended from the two sons of the Rikudo, constantly waged war as eachother's greatest rivals. The two most gifted shinobi in the Uchiha clan were two brothers. The older brother Madara and the younger brother Izuna. Both were remarkably talented and awakened their Mangekyo. It seemed however, that Madara was the more talented of the two and became the eventual clan leader.
    Similair to the relationship between Sasuke and Itachi, I believe that Izuna both resented and revered his older brother as they grew up together. This is a paralel that has been hinted upon by Kishimoto. Eventually, as they continued to battle, Madara started to lose his eyesight. He took his Izuna's eyes to gain the Eternal Mangekyo. The manner in which he aquired those eyes determines some parts of the story. I'll cover one in detail and afterwards describe the slight changes in case the other manner was used. I am going to assume here that Madara forcibly took the eyes in his quest to gain ever more power. Izuna, left for dead, was highly bitter of this, he lost out to his brother. He, a shell of his former self, faded into anonimity, he lost his name, Izuna was dead to the world.

    After Konoha was founded and Madara left the clan, feeling betrayed, he once again sought battle. There was only one opponent that could satiate his thirst: Hashirama Senju. In this final, climactic battle, Madara awakened the final evolutionary stage of the Sharingan, presumably only reacheable after attaining EMS, namely the Rinnegan. He also sought the power of Senju, wanting to steal some of Hashirama's cells. With this, Madara would gain the power of the Rikudo, finally cementing him irrevocably as the most powerful shinobi alive. But he went and got himself beaten. Knowing his end was nigh, Madara sought out a young Uzumaki boy he saw during one of his battles around Amegakure. He gave this boy his own Rinnegan, with the intention of the boy one day sacrificing himself to resurrect Madara. Al the while Izuna kept a check on his older brother. After Madara's death, Izuna finally lost it. The one man he admired most, the one who took eveything from him in order to gain unimaginable power, was defeated. He then vowed to fulfill Madara's goal of becoming the next Rikudo, he would gain the power to subjugate the world. He would don a mask to conceal his true face, adopting the name Madara, eventually becoming unable to seperate himself from the Madara identity. His jealousy, his anger, his grief over his brother, his lust for power, it al led him to wanting to become Madara. His knowledge and powers allowed him to play that role so well that a lot of people believed him, from Nagato to Itachi. All the while he took the Senju cells from Madara to sustain his own life, he would transplant Sharingan to replace the ones he lost. He eventually took Obito's eyes. A few years later he would use his newfound space-time powers to battle against Minato to procure the Ninetails that rightfully belonged to Madara, thus himself. Sometime after that, he was approached by Itachi offering him a part in the Uchiha massacre. Glad to destroy the clan that betrayed him and his brother, and with the prospect of gaining a lot of Sharingan, he accepted. There is only one person that realized the truth. Whos saw trhouh Tobi's boast, his completely believable act of being Madara. Kabuto found Madara's remains and immediately concluded that only Izuna could portray Madara so well. Thus he had the ultimate bargaining chip against akatsuki's leader.

    But what if Izuna voluntarily gave up his eyes? Then he shared Madara's ambition and wanted him to make that dream a reality. But then Madara lost, and Izuna grew bitter of that. He assumed the role of Madara to accomplish these goals in place of his brother. Basically same story.

    To recap: Izuna had a relationship with Madara that resembled that of Sasuke and Itachi. He revered and resented his more talented brother. After he died, Izuna lost it, took the Senju cells Madara had aquired to prolong his life, wore a mask and took the name Madara, becoming more mentally unstable untillhe started to confuse his own identity, wanting, like his brother to become all powerfull, to subjugate the world.


    Finally, a comparison pic. First I would like to note that Tobi is definitely not Madara, as we all know, due to Edo tensei. The picture in the spoiler is a compilation of Tobi, Madara and Izuna pics.
    Spoiler show

    I would like you to note the shape of Tobi's eyes and the heavy eyelids. They are identical to Madara and Izuna. New thing with Tobi are the bags under his eyes due to advanced age. Now if Madara is dead, then who looks exactly like Tobi? So far, only Izuna comes to mind...
    Last edited by Smerten; June 30, 2012 at 02:37 PM.

  2. #2
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Identity crisis: the connection between Tobi, Madara, Nagato and...?

    I used to be of the opinion Izuna was Tobi. But when Madara mentioned "the fake Madara", it threw me off. I don't think, even if he wanted to keep Izuna's identity a mystery, he'd word it like that. Maybe he'd say "my imposter" or "the other Madara".

    Then again, Tobi is confirmed to be an Uchiha. Or, not confirmed. But Itachi states he had to be an Uchiha because he could read the tablet in the place only an Uchiha would know the location of (then again, all it would take is Genjutsu to find that info out...).

    I'm still leaning toward Madara clone though.

  3. #3
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member EnvyOS's Avatar
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    Re: Identity crisis: the connection between Tobi, Madara, Nagato and...?

    Where does this fit into your theory?

    Spoiler show

  4. #4
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Identity crisis: the connection between Tobi, Madara, Nagato and...?

    Quote Originally Posted by EnvyOS View Post
    Where does this fit into your theory?

    Spoiler show
    What part exactly? Madara refers to him aquiring his "power" or cells at one point. AAfter Madara died, Izuna would have taken those cells, as was seen in his lair, where he hatched a tree from it. That was the only real thing to him that Hashirama left. And his quote about rising from the dead ties in with his plan of getting resurrected by a Rinnegan user, in Madara's case Nagato

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