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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
My point was that if there are a thousand clones, the overwhelming odds favour Sasuke warping some random clone. As soon as this technique is revealed, he is going to find it difficult to do so again because the clones and Naruto are going to use FTG to avoid the warp. As for using Kamui to take out the entire army of clones, I don't see it happening. Kamui isn't particularly quick in its execution, and the area for an attack on such a large number of clones is likely to be huge. If Kakashi is any indication, Sasuke is likely to be unable to Kamui an area so large. I honestly believe that he's more likely to kill himself from the strain.Quote:
Naruto isn't going to be summoning one clone. He is going to be summoning an army of clones. Naruto would counter the pup in the same manner as he did the first time he faced it; the Toads. And if they decide they're not up for the job, one of his clones can do the job. If there isn't anything left of Cerberus, I doubt he multiplies. Using Kushina's sealing chakra chains to subdue it would also work.Quote:
Last edited by Impossibility; July 03, 2012 at 06:43 AM.
In addition, why would Sasuke activate Susanoo with it active in the first place? If anything, he would use it after Susanoo, like Madara has been doing.
And the reference to Susanoo is because of the circumstances of the battle. The chakra absorption seal would leave Sasuke open to physical attack because he would be unable to defend with Susanoo during its activation. If Sasuke is absorbing an attack from Naruto, Naruto's clones would be capable of attacking Sasuke physically. With their immense speed, as well as FTG, they shouldn't find it difficult to attack at the moment Sasuke is attempting to absorb ninjutsu. A few of my posts prior to this one outline the most ideal setup for Preta Path's ability, but also its seemingly most obvious downside that would make it an ineffective strategy for Sasuke.
That's super-simplifying things though. Nagato's proven that Rinnegan abilities can be multi-tasked. Sasuke absorbs an attack from ahead of him? He defends his back with Asura Realm limbs. Maybe a rocket fist, maybe a laser beam. Not to mention the scale of Naruto's attacks will be so destructive, hitting him with any clones would never work, since Sasuke will literally be inside of a giant explosive salvo of Rasengan or Bijuudama chakra during the extent of his absorbtion. Nothing Naruto uses that is made of pure chakra will help him.Originally Posted by Impossibility
The fact that Naruto's clone fell to his knees in pain from the attempt at summoning Kurama is proof that his assault can be hindered without actually making contact. In the midst of making a bijuudama or activating Chakra Mode he could be brought to his knees, literally (and since it affects the clones, any army currently summoned will become immobilized aswell). That's DEFINATELY an advantage. Sasuke was also given all of Tobi and Madara's jutsu, meaning subduing any of his bijuu via Uzumaki-style sealing chains is also an option. This, combined with his Sharingan gives him the ability to render any and all variations of bijuu usage unusable if we're gonna get technical.Quote:
Because Sasuke has been given more than just the Sharingan in this fight. He also has the Rinnegan and all jutsu performed by anyone with a Sharingan, as per the rules. Double check if you don't believe me. As for how the abilities I've listed can be used to benefit him in any way, you really can't comprehend how bringing an opponent to his knees in excruciating pain mid-fight can become an advantage? Really?Quote:
That's a vast misenterpretation of what happened, but okay. Your counters had counters to them, but I often have to reiterate myself when I explain something to you so I don't expect this time to be any different.Quote:
Which is exactly why I listed multiple defenses, all usable while (or instantly behind) Shinra Tensei's time limit. From Susanoo, to summons, to intangibility.Quote:
Full on exaggeration. First off, Sasuke is a full blooded Uchiha, which grants him the ability to use the Sharingan to a greater extent than Kakashi. He also has far more stamina and the ability to absorb ninjutsu to restore lost chakra, making the drain a moot point. As for speed, Kakashi has both absorbed an explosion the moment it started, and defended against Susanoo arrows (one of the fastest/hardest to avoid attacks we've seen) via Kamui. To claim it's slow is reaching.Quote:
Naruto's physical attacks are laced with absorbable chakra, and Sasuke's absorbtion limits him ONLY in the since that he becomes immobile. He can still defend with other jutsu (why do you keep claiming otherwise anyway? Where'd you see anything of the sort even implied?)Quote:
That Naruto has no knowledge of (another counter you missed in my last post). Not only does Naruto not know the limit, but Tobi has proven he's capable of using jutsu while intangible. He can activate the jutsu during any counter attack against his own jutsu, baiting Naruto into an inescapable checkmate.Quote:
Correction: Sasuke need only use Naruto's senses, re-create the events of one of their bouts, and Izanami is already created. Naruto making clones, and then the clones getting burned away with enton is a simple and common occurence. Doing this twice is hardly difficult. Not to mention, the experiences from Naruto's clones ensure Naruto memorizes all the events that happens and thus, likely passes on the knowledge of these occurences TO him, making Izanami casting even easier, since the memories attributed to their senses are given to him.Quote:
1000 wind jutsu in an enclosed area... whatever would someone with EMS do to counter something like that?Quote:
Naruto barely got away from Nagato's Banshou Tenin boulder surprise attack, even with his sensing abilities and Chakra Mode speed, so you'll forgive me if I disagree.Quote:
Naruto's dogs are gone once they die. Sasuke's dog summon can spam minions indefinately. And do you really believe Naruto can destroy those meteors with a bunch of FRS? What if Sasuke coats the meteors with Enton? The FRS' would just make the jutsu stronger and they'd still keep coming.Quote:
For the millionth time, chakra reserve is NOT an issue to someone that can restore their body with chakra attacks used from their opponent, especially when that opponent is 0 threat without overwhelming chakra usage. Chakra will never be an issue for Sasuke in this fight. It's literally impossible to be. As for the dragons being a waste, even if they don't rip souls from the clones, they'll still rip them to shreds, resulting in their destruction. And since Sasuke doesn't have to maintain the jutsu of his own chakra, we have an attack from an opponent that can't be stopped, only outrun. And only outrun if Naruto isn't currently being pulled by Chibaku Tensei or Bansho Tenin.Quote:
Even worse is that the absorbed chakra doesn't just give him more fuel to fight, but it rejuvinates his body. Nagato, after absorbing chakra from Bee, was restored from the emaciated form he was in naturally.
In response to this, I would just suggest that you refer to the conditions of the battle that have already been clarified by the poster. You seem to need to check the conditions once again.Quote:
Not a misinterpretation, it was a fact. I hadn't countered them when you had raised them as issues, but others already had. My earlier posts are there for you to see that that was the case. You seem to be questioning my comprehension of events, but you seem unwilling to refer to the posts in the thread to increase yours.Quote:
My portrayal of Kamui isn't an exaggeration. Yours is. Kamui is slow when compared to the arsenal available to the combatants, even slower when compared to the opponent Sasuke intends to use it against, and it also drains the stamina of the user quite rapidly. Sasuke being an Uchiha doesn't change those facts. He may have more chakra and the drain rate may be less, but it is still going to be a costly technique.Quote:
Um, so how did draining those 'physical attacks laced with absorbable chakra' go for Preta Path? Is their a point to that statement. As for why I keep claiming that Sasuke is unable to utilise other jutsu while the chakra absorption seal is active, I'm having a discussion with Rikudou King on the matter. The posts between us would show my reasoning.
Tobi's intangibility is obviously useful, but it has a flaw. Naruto may be unable to ever figure that out, or he may. I was just pointing out a potential weakness of the technique that he could possibly exploit if given the chance. And Naruto is easily capable of pushing it to the limit. I don't get how this technique leads Naruto into an inescapable checkmate, not with the circumstances of the battle.
Your example of an event to memorise is probably not that likely. But that aside, it doesn't change any of what I've already said. He would not only have to recreate the same sensations, he is going to have to recreate the sensations with the actual Naruto, and not on one of his many clones. The odds of this occurring are extremely low.
I'm not sure where you picked a thousand FRSs from, but I guess it doesn't really matter. I could think of any number of things an EMS user could do, none of them particularly useful. Of course if you can point out something that he could do that would affect the battle in his favour, go for it.
Is Sasuke intending to utilise that same BT surprise attack against Naruto? I don't know how that's going to work out. Naruto isn't likely to be in the same situation as when he faced Nagato, but even if he is, as you said Naruto avoided it. So, forgive me if I'm unchanged on my original argument.
I pointed to the Toads as a way to counter the Rinnegan summons, not the dogs specifically. And I don't see why the Toads aren't going to be able to trap the dogs as they originally did. And yes, I do believe with a large number of FRS he is going to be able to destroy Sasuke's meteor. And Sasuke's Enton coating of the meteor is going to change what exactly. The only thing that Enton is likely to do is make the destruction of the meteor all the more spectacular.
I'm pretty sure Naruto's clones are capable of avoiding the ethereal dragons. And if a few get caught, it doesn't really change the battle. It's not as though Naruto has a short supply of clones, they're like disposable cups. I doubt Naruto is even going to notice if a few of them go missing in the grand scheme of the battle. And exactly why doesn't Sasuke have to bear the chakra costs of the dragons, I'm really curious as to how he intends to maintain this technique indefinitely.
Now just as an overarching point that I'm pretty sure I've already presented. Where is Sasuke getting this seemingly infinite chakra you've been attributing to him? Yes, he can absorb chakra. But, one might that think that Naruto is going to avoid feeding the habit. And I've also already pointed out that absorbing chakra carries high risk for Sasuke, in terms of preserving his life.
And now for the statements that ring completely false, at least in reference to the battle. How can you say that Naruto is 0 threat without overwhelming chakra usage? And how is it that it's impossible for chakra to be an issue for Sasuke? Here goes. Naruto summons a group of clones, armed with kunai, that use their speed and FTG to close in on Sasuke, while Naruto removes himself from the battleground. Sasuke uses one, or some, of the many techniques you point to in order to fend them off; Susanoo, ST, Enton, CT, etc. Sasuke manages to defeat the clones, but since Naruto has a ridiculous amount of chakra, every time that Sasuke repels the clones and defeats them there is another host coming to attack. At some point, maybe after an hour if you're being kind to Sasuke, using ST, Susanoo, etc is going to wear on Sasuke, while Naruto with his own ridiculous stamina and nine bijuus is capable of doing this for days on end. Sasuke is then completely exhausted and unable to utilise his techniques. One, or maybe a few, of Naruto's clones decide to insert their kunai into Sasukes body. Sasuke life ends. I think Naruto avoided using any overwhelming chakra-based attacks, and Sasuke faced a shortage of chakra. And Naruto wins.
Last edited by Impossibility; July 03, 2012 at 05:14 PM.
I don't want to be a one-liner, but Sasuke uses Kotoamatsukami and wins.
Last edited by Rikudou King; July 03, 2012 at 07:49 PM.
As for the discussion on Susanoo, I was simply suggesting that if Sasuke ever decided to activate the absorption seal, he would likely be exposed to high risk from physical attacks. I don't consider Susanoo to be particularly effective, simply because he is going to be facing an individual capable of sending endless clones at him. Sasuke is only going to be able to maintain Susanno long enough to handle only a small fraction of the clones Naruto is going to be capable of summoning. And I doubt Sasuke is going to be able to handle Naruto's speed. Naruto is faster, has access to FTG, and greater numbers. I don't think that Sasuke is going to be able keep up.
Last edited by Impossibility; July 03, 2012 at 09:34 PM.
Originally Posted by Impossibility
Too fast for Naruto's clones' speed? You're aware that Naruto was in Chakra Mode when Nagato caught him, correct? And that Killerbee isn't slow either, yet was caught just as easily? You're blatantly disagreeing with something we've seen canonically.
Quote:So yet again, you're calling the canon nature of the manga flatout wrong? Despite what's been stated [i]multiple[i] times about the speed of Sasuke's Susanoo Arrows, the fact that Kamui can absorb them in defense doesn't make it fast? This is twice now that your argument comes down to saying "Nuh uh" in the face of validated information.Quote:
And he's succesfully legitimizing his claims. Nagato was absorbing a soul while creating Asura limbs AND absorbing a Rasengan. That's 3 consecutive jutsu all at once, regardless of which one is created first. That's the beginning and end of it. As for Preta Path failing to absorb chakra from Sage Naruto, Naruto won't be relying on Sage chakra when he has the combined chakra of every bijuu. Not to mention Sage Mode would never give him the necessary speed to deal with the assault Sasuke is capable of now. You're building your entire argument on Naruto's speed, so I'm replying in kind. Naruto's speed is no problem unless it's the level shown against Tobi recently. Which has a limit.Quote:
Naruto blocked one boulder with a chakra hand. This also wasn't enton coated. Touching it the way he did against Nagato isn't the best plan.Quote:
Sasuke is capable of using ninjutsu while intangible. Meaning that turning intangible the exact moment he knows who the real Naruto is allows him to set him aflame or tap him and absorb him. As for "easily capable of pushing it to the limit", Naruto's current Bijuu Mode lasts 5 minutes. The cloaked form that's connected to Kurama that gives him this amazing speed you keep harping about. 5 minutes. All the time that this is being used to try to crush Sasuke's Susanoo or bait him into absorbing something so he can hit him with his AMAZING taijutsu means eventually he'll be permanently downgraded to his basic Raikage-level speed.Quote:
This is why Sasuke running out of chakra will never be an issue because not only is he absorbing godly amounts of chakra, but Naruto will use those 5 minutes to the fullest, knowing full well that the advantage disappears soon. He'll pour every ounce of that fleeting boost to his power into stopping Sasuke. He can be strategic and thoughtful eventually, but not with this limitation bringing his mode to an abrupt stop in 5 minutes.
Unless the thread creator comes in here and gives Naruto no time limit to Bijuu Mode. Inwhich case, things become more difficult.
But Naruto wouldn't be able to send many clones against Sasuke without weakening himself, since the more clones made the less chakra they all have. And with Hungry Path's ability, any clones within range would be absorbed by Sasuke. Susanoo can be maintain for some time, even before EMS was gained, and if Madara is anything to go by, it should be capable of being held even longer. Also Sasuke was capable of reacting in the middle of Ee's shunshin, before he got the upgrade to EMS. With EMS, Madara had no trouble blocking Ee, even when he was teleported in and at his fastest speed.
Naruto would hands down control the flow of the battle thanks to one one little fact that everyone seems to ignore... Hatred detection remember? Sasuke would never be able to get the drop on him, he's a damn walking hatred beacon after all.
Sasuke's fastest technique? Amaterasu, which was rendered useless by E's speed and with Naruto being faster it would be no problem avoiding it. Also, Naruto doesn't need to get close to land a hit so using amaterasu as a shield would be ineffective too.
Tsukuyomi, with Sasuke screaming his location to Naruto thanks to his overwhelming hatre.. I mean, power Naruto can fight him with his eyes closed without a hitch.
Susanoo, again hatred detection comes in to play, his arrows (or any of his weapons really) would never land a hit because of the killing intent behind them, which Naruto would feel from a mile away. As proven by the raikage, enough power can get through susanoo a bijuudama created by all 9 bijuu should suffice but since I know people will say that a way to completely destroy susanoo hasn't been shown all Naruto has to do is stall until sasuke's chakra runs out and then Naruto can move in for the kill in less than a second. (Instant teleportation, fastest shinobi alive anyone?)
All that is needed to counter the rinnegan's moves is to keep one's distance which naruto can flawlessly do with 10 or so clones, which no one can tell apart remember?, Naruto can also close that distance in less than a second and no matter how you look at it, Sasuke may see the blow coming but you're seriously overestimating him if you think his reaction time is high enough to dodge something that moves at a speed grater than lighting.
here. Nagato had one hand extended towards Naruto while another hand extended towards the rock flying. In a closeup before we see Naruto flying towards him, it doesn't look like his other arm was extended yet.
Strategic positions on the battlefield won't help if the clones get pushed away with a Shinra Tensei. Complete Susano'o also has the power to alter the landscape as well, which would probably get rid of most of the clones with one sweep.
He was able to dodge A's elbow and chidori him. When A was close to Sasuke, he did a liger bomb, something Sasuke probably didn't expect due to not having fought such an enemy before. After that, it took A at his max speed to take Sasuke off guard, which he was unable to do due to making a noise before hitting Sasuke. if we're imagining this fight as Kishi draws it, he'll probably have Naruto make that kind of mistake that'd alert Sasuke and have his defense up.
How would they be able to warp to one place or one area? Wouldn't that get too populated and make it harder for Naruto to fight?Quote:
Kamui was quick enough to warp away Sasuke's arrows. Kakashi had no choice but to use Kamui because the arrows were too fast. It takes Kakashi time to use Kamui because of him being precise with his chakra, and if I recall, it only took him time the first few times we saw him because of distance and him not mastering it fully yet. Sasuke should have the chakra to use Kamui on big area since he has more chakra than Kakashi and is an Uchiha.
The toad was unable to do anything to the Cerberus, Naruto had to take out Animal Realm first. Even the real Naruto had problem with Cerberus, which I think the clone Naruto will. FRS did not stop the Cerberus, Amaterasu apparently did.Quote:
I think it might, especially since it was able to hold the Kyuubi. It doesn't kill or hurt either, if I recall, so the Cerberus can't multiply. Naruto also has the chakra to be able to keep the Cerberus busy with his clones as well, so I don't see that being an issue either, to be honest. Though, he'd have to make more and more clones the more the Cerberus multiplies.
Actually, recalling when Hungry Path and Nagato absorbed chakra (as well as Madara), they were facing the attack/s and even used hand or hands. Madara had his right hand stretched out to absorb the FRS, and Preta Path usually had both hands extended when absorbin chakra. So it's not necessarily the chakra absorption seal that absorbs chakra, but whatever chakra touches the hand/s. So, Sasuke could still use Susano'o.Quote:
And as far as I recall, the Yata Mirror is virtually indestructible, so Sasuke can use that to block Naruto's attacks. The problem would be chakra and getting more chakra, though.
Practical Naruto strategies might include:
1) Warp away
2) Send in Sage Kyubi clone
3) Shoot stuff at Sasuke or destroy his surroundings with explosions to hurt him - Susanoo and chakra absorption can't work at the same time.
4) Continue until Sasuke runs out of chakra.
5) Continue making the ground and what not explode with clones while Naruto's main body is safely far away, until Sasuke is dead.
Never underestimate the value of near infinite power.
Umm... you're aware that Naruto's sensing abilities have failed him multiple times already, correct?Originally Posted by Devil_Beast1109
When Nagato's chameleon trapped him, he didn't sense it coming.
When he tripped and fell face-first from running into a god damn root.
When being attacked over and over by the edo jinchuuriki (it worked once, but was useless once he got outnumbered)
When Nagato suprise-attacked him with a Banshou Tenin boulder at the start of their fight
When Tobi rushed in to warp him away and Kakashi and Gai had to save him
Useless? Lol, Raikage's a righty now. I'd hardly say Amaterasu was useless based on that alone. It doesn't have to be fired at the opponent to hit them, especially now that Sasuke has weaponry coated in the unquenchable flames.Quote:
Again, throughout Naruto and Itachi's fight he stared at him... constantly. That's how smart the kid is. He'll do the same against Sasuke. And the literal only person who can successfully fight a Sharingan user with their eyes closed or looking away is Gai. Even Kabuto, who is a superior sage to Naruto, still used his eyesight to fight Itachi and Sasuke (but was protected from Genjutsu thanks to his see-through eyelids). That, and Izanami doesn't require eye contact.Quote:
Again, Naruto's been hit successfully multiple times regardless of his sensing abilities. By opponents with less lethal attacks than Sasuke no less. But there's one fatal flaw to sensing abilities anyway, and that's that it's not precognition. It doens't tell you WHAT is coming, it just tells you that SOMETHING is coming, aswell as where it's gonna hit. He's still relying on his own basic senses to tell the size, speed, or lethality of what ever threat is coming. And some attacks simply can't be avoided.Quote:
How does sensing abilities stop Izanami? Banshou Tenin? It doesn't.
Keeping distance? Again, Naruto can't see the future. He doesn't know the scale of a jutsu until it's used. Like the aim of the meteors falling from the sky, or how big of a destructive force they carry. And keeping distance is only likely when he can actually move of his own volition. If he's paralyzed with Genjutsu, being sucked toward Sasuke with Banshou Tenin, or pulled to a Chibaku Tensei, keeping distance isn't an option until these obstacles are taken care of.Quote:
And for the trillionth time, Sasuke can't run out of chakra aslong as Naruto is using chakra against him.