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Thread: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

  1. #31
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member PLfighter's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I think pirate king and Yonkou are just titles. There doesn't necessarily have to be yonkou for there to be a pirate king, or vice versa. If there were more than one extremely powerful crew that weren't as strong as Roger's, then they could have been the first "yonkou," or at least with Roger was well.Hell, the idea of Yonkou could have existed for centuries without there ever being a pirate king. I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
    I agree the problem is the pirate king is the most free man in the world and be younku is more like king and have duty and privilage we be sure when we see hov organized is shanks as younku.

  2. #32
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, but that is not the case at all. At least we have no reason to believe it is so.... I mean, the execution of roger and the death of WB did not actually contribute anything positive to the world. The world became more dangerous after the roger thing and WB's scream only made the new world far more unstable and started an arms race between world powers.
    That's unfair, the influence of WB and his 43 New World captains has been lessened.
    The cheers of all the people on Sabaody and across the Blue Seas is concrete evidence that it brought many positives as well as negatives.

    I think the Marines had a decent idea. With WB dead, there are lot of people who were his underlings who are now demotivated and are most likely reducing the pirate activity. We've not heard a peep from the entire WB Fleet.
    The WB fleet included 16divisions + 43 NWorld crews so I think the war brought some success.

    As I said, they didn't expect Newgate and Roger to be friends let alone good enough friends to be drinking buddies to the point they discussed that One Piece was real. They had no way to expect Newgate would confirm the existence of One Piece.
    If WB just simply died, then you would just get a few people after his territories. We wouldn't have gotten a resurgence in Pirating with everybody searching for One Piece.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think the panel really shows anything... I mean, what has changed? Overall most of the people in the world hate pirate guts, they despise and curse their existence and descendants. I mean, the main reason to want to kill ace and luffy is not even their crimes, its the fact that they carry the blood of their fathers. The vast mayority of the world hates pirates so much they would kill their kids without a shred of remorse. That is not new in the least. While not normally shown there are quite a few instances in the manga were roger is clearly universally hated in contrast with the usual more positive light he is given.
    The panel shows that the Marines have been motivated just as much as the Pirates have been motivated or rather almost as much.
    If you are a marine and your nakama have taken down WB, you would now have so much belief in the path that you have chosen.

    What has changed is the influence on many territories that the Govt used to own that WB now owns.
    I expect that the Govt are now free to take back some of their territories, or the WB territories have to go back under Govt control to survive now WB is gone.
    Sure Pirates are now motivated to get One Piece even more, but the pride in being a Marine has increased.
    So that panel hints towards the Marines simply growing.

    Sakazuki became the leader and has made a big impact and his increased the belief of Absolute Justice amongst the Marines.
    There are positives from this war. They didn't expect BB taking the Gura Gura no Mi either.
    From their perspective, the Gura Gura no Mi had been ridden of and would grow in a nearby area for the Marines to take. They couldn't have expected BB taking it.

    In fact, quite simply, had WB not said a word on One Piece, there wouldn't have been the massive cheers for Pirating so the Marines had the right idea.

  3. #33
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    The WB pirates are not even considered to be among the yonko nowadays. If I recall the 4 yonko today are BB, kaido, big mom and shanks. The WB pirates were not demoralized, they were replaced.

    We know for a fact that pirate activity was not reduced in the least after the war. As we saw people celebrating the marine's victory we also saw pirates all over the world being excited at the prospect of OP being real and we even saw how WB's former territories started being attacked immediately. The manga has made the point that the world is not any safer than what it used to be and if anything the manga has made the point that the new world is far more dangerous now than what it has ever been. Killing WB might have appeared good in the eyes of the population and other marines but the fact of the matter is that the war inspired pirates just as much if not more than it did the marines which resulted in the world being a more chaotic and dangerous place for everyone.

    The issue is not just WB and roger being buddies. That does not help but overall it was not that important. The issue is that they gave a grand pirate a grand stage to stand on. The scenario was foreseeable (perhaps they did foresee it), and we even saw sengoku crapping his pants just as WB started speaking. The execution of roger was meant to dissuade pirates all over the world and give people hope that the government was doing a good job... It did do the latter but it failed miserably at dissuading a single pirate. The death of WB was supposed to do the same, dissuade pirates and give people faith in the marines. Again it did do the latter but it also failed at dissuading so much as a single pirate. Not even the pathetically weak ones were dissuaded in the least considering hodi did manage to capture and enslave 30000 pirates over a relatively short period of time. Roger and WB did not start the great age of piracy or the second one respectively, it was the government through the demons they created.

    If marines and pirates alike were inspired then the marines already suffered a failure as spectacular as a failure can be. The marines planned to accomplish two things by defeating WB: Scaring the crap out of pirates of the world and give people faith in the marines. Out of that there were several possible combinations as to what could happen:

    Fail at improving their image in the eyes of the people and fail at scaring pirates.
    Fail at improving their image but succeed at scaring pirates of the world(plausible considering sengoku did not want the world to see the pacifista)
    Succeed at improving their image but failing to dissuade pirates
    Succeed at improving their image and scaring pirates.

    Out of all those combinations the only one that is not a failure is the one where they succeed on both ends. The second scenario would also be a victory although the world loosing faith in them could have negative long term implications. Any other scenario is nothing short of a spectacular failure at most. The only real merit the marines have is that they could have actually failed more spectacularly than they did by failing on both objectives.

    I don't think the whole territory thing actually works in a way in which it would be completely coherent with what you described. I mean, the yonko so far seem to rule the underworld so to speak. The implication made is that they control crime syndicates.... I guess there could be some variation depending on the islands in question however overall the yonko don't actually run governments (although it is entirely possible many are infiltrated or intimidated by the power of the yonko). Overall it would seem that while yonko do control sections of the grand line those territories which they control are still in the charge of their local governments. Just look at the fishman island case.

    The world government were by no means free to take back any territory for that matter. The manga has not yet implied anything of the sort and if anything we know piracy is running more rampant than ever. As I said earlier, WB's was merely replaced.... and to add to that he was replaced by someone with far less regard for life who is on a quest to collect powerful abilities to give to his subordinates.

    None of the positives from the war come close to even weighting the same as the negatives. The marines effectively gave the great age of piracy a second wind and as a result piracy is running more rampant than ever. The marines and their lack of foresight are directly responsible for over 2 decades worth of crimes unlike anything the world had ever seen. By jump starting and reinvigorating the great ages of piracy the world government has effectively done the most extreme opposite of what it is supposed to do.

    Truthfully, the world government could not have possibly foreseen BB but where is the relevance of that? If it wasn't BB it would have been someone else to begin with. The marine's plan was so ill conceived that all it took was a couple words from newgate to increase piracy world wide.... From that point onward the death of WB was not going to simply cause his territory to disappear, it was simply a matter of someone taking the territory. Their plan was so ill conceived that all it took was a few words to screw it over.

  4. #34
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Quote:
    That's unfair, the influence of WB and his 43 New World captains has been lessened.
    And that's exactly the problem, people like WB, Luffy etc are good people actually, WB was doing something that the Marines didn't have the balls to do : protecting many islands. He was an authority there, so there wasn't many pirates who would dare to wreck havoc because of him. People who were happy because of WB's death don't know jackshit about WB, except stupid rumors as usual

    Quote Quote:
    If WB just simply died, then you would just get a few people after his territories. We wouldn't have gotten a resurgence in Pirating with everybody searching for One Piece.
    I's true, but in the end, One Piece is bound to be found, even if Luffy didn't exist, someone like him would've found it. It's destiny... Sengoku, Garp, Gorosei know this very well

  5. #35
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    We have little to no reason to think the marines are not actually protecting many islands actually. As far as we know each island has its own government and it is backed up by the marines. Overall I would think the yonko tend to work much like real life mafias or drug cartels. They work under the radar but they control significant amounts of resources. The government and authorities are there but they are either not powerful enough to fully control the situation, the money made by the organization is large enough to sustain it even after many loses or they simply have pull in the government.

  6. #36
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member David Rose's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    We also don't know how yonkous themselves are managing their ressources. Well at least everyone of them has to have their own island and Ship, plus a certain territory of self-sufficient islands that are guarded by them.
    The reason, in my opinion, that the marines can't gain control over that countries is the simple power balance regarding the amount of troops, they can bring up compared to those of a yonkou. A good example would be Shanks. He most likely has his main ship on which his whole crew is located. That is a vast amount of military power given the strong individuals themselves. As you can't attack a man like Shanks with big numbers you need to send big names aswell. But who would be big enough? Also Shanks would be more agile with his single ship and can disband quickly, whereas the marines have to think about where they send which amout of troops, assuming they have a much larger territory and more enemys.
    I think there is some kind of stalemate and the marines simply grant each yonkou a certain territory as they can't risk a military conflict at that scale and the yonkous tend to their territory aswell since they are a single force too and can't show a weakness to the other.
    Personally the comparison to mafia cartels is kinda appealing, but maybe a bit too simple, since every protected island has some kind of jurisdiction, it may be their own though. If you see it that way a yonkou enables an island, or a country their indipendence. If they do it for free like WB or against a protection money is another matter. The difference to the normal mafia is that in their own territory each yonkou can rule as a king. A criminal syndicate always operates beside the law or in a legal frame.
    There is of course nothing against a yonkou operating a syndicate in the territory of another yonkou, or those islands under marine jurisdiction. There seem to be some indipendent contries that stand under no protection, which we may see in the future. Or examples like Dressarosa, which is controlled by Don Flamingo.
    To me, his network seems as the example of a syndicate. He pulls the strings an so on.
    A man like Kaido may be one of his customers but that doesn't mean he's that involved. It rather seems like Don Flamingo came to him, as a yonkou, and made the deal, which brings me to the assumption, that a complete involvement of a yonkou in syndicate activity has yet to be proven.

    You may prove me wrong any time though. :P

    >>David rose to beat the Philistines, with five smooth stones and a sling.<<

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  8. #37
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Post Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    And that's exactly the problem, people like WB, Luffy etc are good people actually, WB was doing something that the Marines didn't have the balls to do : protecting many islands. He was an authority there, so there wasn't many pirates who would dare to wreck havoc because of him. People who were happy because of WB's death don't know jackshit about WB, except stupid rumors as usual
    Pretty big assumption.
    I think its clear Marines clearly protect all islands that are not under the influence of the Yonkou, unless there is a specific Marine who is corruptly working with that Pirate.
    For example, Arlong and Captain Nezumi in Nami's village.

    But sure, now WB's many territories will have spread out amongst different pirates and the Marines may be taking some islands back.
    Although I reckon Marco, Jozu, Vista & Co. will be more than able to retain quite a few of those islands.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Rose View Post
    A good example would be Shanks. He most likely has his main ship on which his whole crew is located. That is a vast amount of military power given the strong individuals themselves. As you can't attack a man like Shanks with big numbers you need to send big names aswell. But who would be big enough? Also Shanks would be more agile with his single ship and can disband quickly, whereas the marines have to think about where they send which amout of troops, assuming they have a much larger territory and more enemys.
    I agree on your concept relating to the mafia,
    I wouldn't say this though. I think it is entirely down to more enemies as oppose to Shanks being more agile/better mobility.
    The Marines seem to lack Admiral power members. With Aokiji going its a big toll on them.
    With Garp and Sengoku officially stepping down from the front lines entirely is also a big blow.
    I have a theory (had I suppose), that Bogart would take a bigger role in their forces but that seems to be totally wrong.

    If the Marines had a few more Admiral level sort of members then I think they could easily compete with Yonkou more frequently and its likely the Yonkou's influence would be not much better than the Shichibukai. But due to there not being enough Marines who can seriously fight a Yonkou (Sakazuki, Borsalino and Issho isn't enough) the Yonkou's influence is more or less Marines + Shichibukai.
    So its down to just lack of power on the Marines part.

    Just think, although we now know that not all the Marines VA's and Admiral level members were at the Marineford War since they would be required to help sustain peace in the New World due to many opportunist pirates attempting to pounce on the several islands in NW where Marine forces had left unprotected to fight in Marineford (people should have known anticipate this with common sense), the situation was Marines + tons of fleets we can count 'em, (each VA + Commodore and Rear Admiral would be arriving with their own fleet) and the Marines barely won.

    So I think its down to the Marines just lacking tremendously strong people.

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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Pretty big assumption.
    I think its clear Marines clearly protect all islands that are not under the influence of the Yonkou, unless there is a specific Marine who is corruptly working with that Pirate.
    For example, Arlong and Captain Nezumi in Nami's village.

    But sure, now WB's many territories will have spread out amongst different pirates and the Marines may be taking some islands back.
    Although I reckon Marco, Jozu, Vista & Co. will be more than able to retain quite a few of those islands.
    Why do you think the Gorosei always cares about the balance ? It's because they know the Yonko, despite being pirates, act like an authorithy in the NW and make some order there

    The very fact that they care about the balance clearly indicates that deep down, they don't believe they can actually control the whole world and especially pirates.

    The Marines alone cannot handle the security in this world, the WG seems to consider the Yonko like a necessary " evil " for " now ", maybe in the future they could be strong enough to handle that, and they seem at least to have gotten a weapon nice enough to handle trash pirates : Pacifista

  10. #39
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member David Rose's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    The Marines alone cannot handle the security in this world, the WG seems to consider the Yonko like a necessary " evil " for " now ", maybe in the future they could be strong enough to handle that, and they seem at least to have gotten a weapon nice enough to handle trash pirates : Pacifista
    That's one thing that made me curious. With the pacifista the WG is indeed able to beat literally every pirate that wants to take a step in the new world, not just the trash. Since two Pacifistas from pre-timeskip would've been able to handle a crew like the strawhats, plus the fact that there's very likely a better Pacifista on the way after two years, it could mean that emigration from pirates into the NW depletes. It seems that's not fully the case though, since there are new supernovae in the current arc.
    But I guess after the whole story around them the Pacifistas will get some influence on the main story. It would be sad if they were just there to measure Luffys power after his training. :P

    >>David rose to beat the Philistines, with five smooth stones and a sling.<<

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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Well, the marines as a whole are IMO certainly more powerful than any one yonko. The VAs are numerous and it does seem the new admirals are up to the task at large. Loosing aokiji was a blow however by addapting a bit the marines are somehow keeping the peace in the new world even with the second wind the great pirating era got after the war. Overall the marines are at any given time actually confronting the 4 yonko, the revolutionaries and other random but powerful pirates. What they cannot do is defeat them all or focus their forces on a single one. Even during the war against WB the marines did not actually summon all the VAs (experienced haki users) they had available considering we did not see fujitora or that other VA at the war. I would think that if the marines could actually gather all of their assets and focus on an objective said objective would be obliterated. Then again doing so would result in entire countries and islands being left alone against hordes of pirates waiting for a chance to power.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member David Rose's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    But then again comes the question: Which Yonkou would confront the whole Marine on a battlefield? In sheer military power they are stronger than any force. But only in a direct confrontation. And if they really gather all important troops they would loose most of them in the end. In an allout war the yonkous would always win, since they're not working together.
    Even if one of them is fighting on an open field the other 3 would immediately attack important islands and structures that are unprotected, since they know aswell their only chance to survive is either strike the Marines on the field alltogether (wont really happen), or hit their ressources. And I'm not even mentioning the revolutionaries.

    Given the course the manga is going I think this stalemate will kinda continue until there's one person that's standing up against the WG and break it. And that will most likely be Luffy.

    >>David rose to beat the Philistines, with five smooth stones and a sling.<<

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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Such a situation will be broken when Luffy manages to " rule " over the seas (rule isn't the right term obviously, but more beating the Yonko and achieving PK status), and even there, the WG will not stay silent. Well if one Yonko will be defeated (either Kaido or BM), the Marines and especially BB will make their moves, that's pretty much obvious : you've got BB hunting DF users, Marines getting stronger and stronger, they're obviously getting ready for the shitstorm


    Quote Quote:
    That's one thing that made me curious. With the pacifista the WG is indeed able to beat literally every pirate that wants to take a step in the new world, not just the trash. Since two Pacifistas from pre-timeskip would've been able to handle a crew like the strawhats, plus the fact that there's very likely a better Pacifista on the way after two years, it could mean that emigration from pirates into the NW depletes. It seems that's not fully the case though, since there are new supernovae in the current arc.
    Well, it doesn't seem any rookies strong enough have appeared since Luffy, Kidd, well the " Worst generation ", I think dispatching Pacifistas in EB, WB, SB and NB will reduce piracy a lot, and dispatching them in the Paradise possible routes will most likely stop any pirates to go to the NW. But, the big problem isn't small fry, but the big players at the NW, and that's what the Marines are obviously getting ready to fight against

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Well, none of the rookies were strong enough 2 years ago. Caribou ultimately served comedic relieve however we have no way whatsoever of knowing how he would have fared against the supernova from 2 years ago. He had a 200 million bounty and a logia fruit, for all we know the other supernova would not have stood a chance against him. On the other hand right now we saw him having to match up against the trained strawhats, each of whom is a beast nowadays.

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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, none of the rookies were strong enough 2 years ago. Caribou ultimately served comedic relieve however we have no way whatsoever of knowing how he would have fared against the supernova from 2 years ago. He had a 200 million bounty and a logia fruit, for all we know the other supernova would not have stood a chance against him. On the other hand right now we saw him having to match up against the trained strawhats, each of whom is a beast nowadays.
    Give Luffy Haki, without Hardening, just regular Haki and he'll beat the shit out of Caribou.
    Pekoms clearly explained Caribou in a nutshell anyway... His bounty was equal to his logia honestly... So far, except Bartolomeo and Caribou, there hasn't been any noticeable rookie, nothing like the " Worst generation " at least

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    Give Luffy Haki, without Hardening, just regular Haki and he'll beat the shit out of Caribou.
    Pekoms clearly explained Caribou in a nutshell anyway... His bounty was equal to his logia honestly... So far, except Bartolomeo and Caribou, there hasn't been any noticeable rookie, nothing like the " Worst generation " at least
    I was talking about caribou now against the supernova 2 years ago. Caribou as he is now is basically fodder to at least half the strawhat crew IMO. I would think only chopper and robin would have trouble with him considering their abilities however nami should be able to at least electrocute him and ussop could have him eaten by a plant or something.... On the other hand if we compare him to the pre time skip supernova things would be different. Luffy would have no means of actually hurting him and neither would more of the supernova as far as we know given their obvious lack of haki two years ago.

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