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Thread: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member FetherMan's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Personally, I think the "Yonkou" are a balance used between the World Government and Pirates concerning the New World. The only reason, Whitebeard waged war against the World Government was due to Ace being executed. Other than that, when Gol. D Roger was roaming the seas, he formed his own set of rules and way of life that was free from the social constructs of the World Government. Hence, is what the World Government deems as a "pirate" or enemy to their organized socialization of the world.

    the Shichibukai are what they use to counter the Yonkou, just in case something like what happen with Whitebeard occurs. I think, that's also why, Red Shanks showed up and ended the conflict all together.

    Gol. D Roger was on a different level from the other pirates and i think it had little to do with power and more with his ideas and actions. You could say, Dragon, the Revolutionary is more or less, the closet thing to what, Gol. D Roger was, before his own execution. Oda is saving, Dragon's story for later on and I can't wait for that.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    The reason there's Yonko is that there's no PK. Although each of the Yonko seems to have their own goals and such (WB not being interested by the PK title, Shanks obviously, BM/Kaidou we don't know yet), so each of them are more or less minding their own business.

    Being PK = freedom basically if we take Roger/Rayleigh/Luffy's words, in order to achieve that, you need to be the strongest, you cannot roam freely the seas whil you're weak and unable to defend yourelf and your nakama, and if you want to do whatever you want, people will get in your way (including the Yonko), so, it goes without saying that Luffy or anyone who wish to become PK at this time, needs to kick the asses of the Yonko. Also, this whole notion of Yonko is relatively new in the OP world, as they appeared only after Roger's death and WB being considered to be at the top and such, so let's just say that Luffy becomes PK and dies, it doesn't mean then that there will be Yonko again etc.

  3. #18
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    I doubt that there are still emperors while there's a pirate kind,although that's not mean that the pirate king rules over them as well. with luffy the other pirates will be forced to obey,though

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    To say someone is the pirate king doesn't mean he rules over anything; and the same goes for the four emperors. In this way, "king" and "emperor" are misleading terms.

    "Pirate King" is only used in the same sense as saying "king of the hill" where whoever reaches the top (in this case, the pirates' summit, as Ace put it) becomes the Pirate King.

    The "Four Emperors" is a name given to them to make them seem powerful (as they are) and not because they "rule" over anything. Sure, they exert influence like the mafia: calling islands their turf. But only in the case of Big Mom do we see them collecting taxes of sorts and doing anything except just having their flag up on the island to mark their territory like a pirate would.

    There is no government associated with the Pirate King or the Four Emperors. So once Luffy reaches Raftel, its really up to the people of the One Piece world or the World Government to call him Pirate King and decide whether they still want to call the other four pirates Yonkou. It really wouldn't make the Yonkou any more or less dangerous or affect their influence if the people in the One Piece world called them just by their names and dropped the title that was given to them by consensus; so the power structure wouldn't really change.

    At the same time, considering that to be the most free person in the world you would also have to be the most powerful, since if there was someone more powerful than you you would be subject to their power, Luffy would have to show that he's more powerful than the Yonkou even if he doesn't have to literally go and defeat each one of them.
    Last edited by Anduren; August 03, 2012 at 02:53 PM.

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  6. #20
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member MangaPage's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Well, in the end Yonkou is just a name. It is obvious that before Roger there were also influential pirates, although perhaps they weren’t four and they didn’t have an official name, but obviously their influence had a similar effect on the World as the Yonkou have now. So really to consider them Yonkou or not depends on what you consider a Yonkou to be. Obviously those pirates lost influence when a pirate much stronger than what they were (Roger) emerged. So at Roger’s golden times, there weren’t pirates with the same kind of influence as the Yonkou, since all that influence belonged to Roger, who single-handedly ruled the seas. The concept of Yonkou implies that there are various pirate forces of more or less the same strength, whereas Roger was the single most powerful/influential person of his time.
    But the fact that there weren’t Yonkou in Roger’s time doesn’t necessarily mean there won’t be Yonkou at the time of a new Pirate King. Again, that depends of what you consider a PK to be. Some people say it’s the pirate who has managed to travel along all the grand line (which means reach the last island on it) and find the One Piece, and some people say it’s the pirate who has supremacy over all the other ones. Personally, I think you cannot be called PK if you don’t have complete supremacy over the other pirates. But if a PK is just someone who has found One Piece and reached the last island on the Grand Line, then that doesn’t necessarily mean he is much stronger/more influential than the others, so basically in that case there could still be Yonkou since they would be 2 different concepts, and you could even be PK and Yonkou at the same time. But the name Pirate King implies that you have to be the “leader”, so if you go by logic that is not enough. In that case, to become PK you have either to defeat all the Yonkou, or make them your allies (underlings), or reach a level of power so much superior to the Yonkou that they are not a threat anymore even if you don’t defeat them and they don’t join your side, so your right to rule is acknowledged (which is basically what the Yonkou do with the other non-Yonkou pirates). So when there is a pirate that does one of these three things (if there ever will be one), the Yonkou would stop having the same influence as before and then, whether you keep calling them Yonkou or not, it definitely won’t be the same Yonkou as “the four pirates that rule the New World”. Then again, PK and Yonkou aren’t titles with official rules (such as to gain that title you have to precisely do this and that, if not you are not that by law), like the Shichibukai are, so it all depends on how you view it. My answer to the question would be more like a no.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member moonster x's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    i though WG were the one that naming the 4 most powerful and dangerous pirates Yonkou. after that WG make an alliance with other strong pirates and Shichibukai was formed to balance and maintaining their power. if i put something like one of Yonkou fall (Whitebeard) but the balances still maintain because after that Blackbeard takeover.. but what if two or three Yonkou falls? and the reason of their fall is from the one that become the Pirate King. will Yonkou exist?

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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    I think the Pirate King is one of the Yonkou.

    When Gol D. Roger was the Pirate King
    The Yonkou are most likely: Kaidou, Big Mom Shiki, Whitebeard, and Roger

    Last edited by FaustXIII; May 20, 2013 at 06:51 AM.

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  10. #23
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member David Rose's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Well, that also brings up the question what it really takes to become pirate king. And in my opinion this simply means beeing superior to every pirate out there, in physical and influental ways. Since Roger was the single, most powerfull person in the world and on top of that found the One Piece, he also was given that title.

    Personally I'd say that when a new pirate king is announced there still are the yonkou. Beeing a yonkou means not only trendemous amounts of power but also a vast amount of worldly possesions, such as islands, territory, crews, etc. and thus beeing entangled in a complex web of opposing powers.

    If you are able to become the pirate king you are above that. You don't need a vast crew, or territory, since beeing that superior everybody simply accepts your potential of just taking what you want. Thus the pirate king indeed enjoys the most freedom in the ocean.

    My conclusion is that the yonkous are needed to support the balance of powers while the pirate king is more intangible to such matters and doesn't directly affect the scales, unless he wishes to.

    >>David rose to beat the Philistines, with five smooth stones and a sling.<<

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Well, based on what the manga has said recently I get the impression that the unofficial titles yonko and pirate king are contextually different things. The yonko refers to 4 pirates who have under their control crime, land and minions. Basically shanks, WB, kaido and big mom run criminal empires from the shadows and have perhaps thousands of underlings. We have no reason to believe roger ever had such a thing as an illegal empire and if the strong world chapter is of any relevance he did not want one and went to every possible extreme to not have one. Interestingly it seems that it was the world government who actually started calling roger the pirate king. Roger definitely did not start that considering his little flashback with WB... perhaps the world government gave him the monicker to make him into a symbol and have his death cause a stronger impact on other pirates.

    I see a weird pattern here. The government intentionally or unintentionally made roger into a symbol for pirates by calling him the pirate king. They hang him in a public place to scare pirates of the world. A few words from roger and the plan goes to hell and an entire generation of pirates is inspired to pillage, rape and murder remorselessly through the world. Then the marines go to war with the man they gave the monicker "the strongest man in the world" who was a friend and rival to roger (perhaps the WG missed that little detail but still). Did they actually expect anything different from the war? The war inspired yet another generation of pirates to rape, murder and pillage with more intensity than before. You'd think the world government would learn to not make individual men into symbols which can potentially inspire rapists, murderers, robbers and criminals to rape, murder, rob and crime about.... And now the current scenario is that the world government along with the yonko are preparing for yet another epic battle which will dwarf whatever went on with roger and the war against WB. Its like the world government wants the rape, crime and overall pirate thing to go on. If anything they are intentionally fueling it. The entire pirate era could have been avoided if ace had been hanged under magellan's authority at any point during the 2 weeks he was at ID. He would have died an unremarkable death and the world would have forgotten about him and WB would have been helpless to do squat. Instead they guaranteed a wave of crime through the ocean like the world had never seen before.

  12. #25
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    A few words from roger and the plan goes to hell and an entire generation of pirates is inspired to pillage, rape and murder remorselessly through the world. Then the marines go to war with the man they gave the monicker "the strongest man in the world" who was a friend and rival to roger (perhaps the WG missed that little detail but still). Did they actually expect anything different from the war? The war inspired yet another generation of pirates to rape, murder and pillage with more intensity than before. You'd think the world government would learn to not make individual men into symbols which can potentially inspire rapists, murderers, robbers and criminals to rape, murder, rob and crime about.... And now the current scenario is that the world government along with the yonko are preparing for yet another epic battle which will dwarf whatever went on with roger and the war against WB. Its like the world government wants the rape, crime and overall pirate thing to go on. If anything they are intentionally fueling it. The entire pirate era could have been avoided if ace had been hanged under magellan's authority at any point during the 2 weeks he was at ID. He would have died an unremarkable death and the world would have forgotten about him and WB would have been helpless to do squat. Instead they guaranteed a wave of crime through the ocean like the world had never seen before.
    Not really.
    The Marines likely had no idea that WB was friends with Gol D Roger. What inspired a new wave of Piracy was WB confirming that One Piece is indeed a treasure of some sort. It was at that moment people across the Seas cheered to go and chase their dreams again.
    The Marines didn't expect WB to say that live to the world since they didn't know WB and Roger were drinking buddies.

    Secondly, even if they murdered Ace in ID, WB would have come to take down Marineford. Luffy would have come down, when WB comes to take down Marineford or ID, it means all his allies and people who look to him as a father would come.
    So from the moment Ace was captured to go ImpelDown where you stay until you die, the world knew a war was coming.

    It made perfect sense to kill the son of Roger for the public to see. Did you forget how motivated Marine bases across the seas and even the weak bases in the Blue seas were when Whitebeard lost?
    The Government are corrupt but its clear they don't want Piracy and things involving rape, murder and theft like you mentioned.

  13. #26
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member David Rose's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    I think the whole deal with the marines giving Roger the title was speaking out what everybody knew. And calling WB "the strongest man in the world" is kinda the same, given he was the strongest individual, second only to Roger. But since there are the Admirals and the other Yonkou which have the potential to equal him because of his age and his lack of ambition he wasn't made the king.

    Plus we simply don't know why nobody was able to get to Raftel. Maybe it's just the fact that they can't read the porneglyphs ant this is the crucial ability to find it. Also I think the ability of Roger to hear the voice of things is the last step of the Conquerer's Haki and enables you to connect with all and everything.

    >>David rose to beat the Philistines, with five smooth stones and a sling.<<

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Not really.
    The Marines likely had no idea that WB was friends with Gol D Roger. What inspired a new wave of Piracy was WB confirming that One Piece is indeed a treasure of some sort. It was at that moment people across the Seas cheered to go and chase their dreams again.
    The Marines didn't expect WB to say that live to the world since they didn't know WB and Roger were drinking buddies.

    Secondly, even if they murdered Ace in ID, WB would have come to take down Marineford. Luffy would have come down, when WB comes to take down Marineford or ID, it means all his allies and people who look to him as a father would come.
    So from the moment Ace was captured to go ImpelDown where you stay until you die, the world knew a war was coming.

    It made perfect sense to kill the son of Roger for the public to see. Did you forget how motivated Marine bases across the seas and even the weak bases in the Blue seas were when Whitebeard lost?
    The Government are corrupt but its clear they don't want Piracy and things involving rape, murder and theft like you mentioned.
    I did mention the WG might not have known that one detail. Still, the fact that there was a sort of awkward friendship there was ultimately relevant.

    They didn't expect it but ultimate it was the marines who gave WB a stage where such a thing could be said. They had experience with a pirate on deathrow inspiring a generation, it should have been their priority to not allow that to happen a second time. Still, even buggy could get control of the transmission for the whole world to see.

    WB went to marineford to get ace, there is no guarantee he would have gone anyways. It wouldn't make sense... WB has territory and allies to look out for, there is no need to throw the lives of his sons away so avenge another one. He didn't even want ace to go after a single man who murdered a fellow crewmate for that matter. Wouldn't it make just as much sense to let the ace thing go if there was nothing whatsoever to be gained from it? It would really be an scenario where WB would bet everything and have everything to loose without a single thing to gain.

    Also, WB only went to marineford because the WB announced he was going to be executed there. Assuming ace properly hanged like every other pirate, where would have WB gone to? WB would have already lost... And even then, what would have WB done at marineford or ID if he had gone there? At ID he risked releasing the level 6 prisoners.... It does seem like there were quite a few prisoners there, it wouldn't even be strange that the combined might of all the level six prisoners would actually exceed that of the world government or WB.

    And true, marines all over the world were excited at the apparent defeat of WB but so what? Nothing good came out of the war.... The marines which were a bigot organization with the authority to do atrocious things was given more authority just to deal with the new wave of piracy. The new wave of piracy dwarfed what roger caused in the past. The influence of the yonko increased and BB, a potentially more dangerous man than WB was given free reign over a section of the new world. The marines are now preparing for a new world. The yonko are doing everything in their power to increase their military might.

    Now, I know the marines don't actually want pirates. They want to stop the whole rape, murder and crime empires they have going on. My point is that they did not learn their lesson the first time they were the obvious origin of a new wave of crime. They gave roger a stage, they gave him a name and a symbol, it was the WG who made roger into a character that could inspire a generation of pirates. And they did the exact same thing with WB. They gave him a stage, they made him a legend, they have him a name.... All of it is their fault.

    Ok, lets say the first pirate era was something which the WG couldn't have foreseen which is reasonable enough. What about the second one? Is it that hard to not give criminals, who they turn into legends with cool names, a stage where they can inspire pirates all over the world to do more pirate stuff? They could have at least actually made sure the pirates did not have the means to transmit a signal all over the world... but then again buggy and the prisoners following him were enough to hack the thing (assuming such a fancy term can be applied).

    ---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by David Rose View Post
    I think the whole deal with the marines giving Roger the title was speaking out what everybody knew. And calling WB "the strongest man in the world" is kinda the same, given he was the strongest individual, second only to Roger. But since there are the Admirals and the other Yonkou which have the potential to equal him because of his age and his lack of ambition he wasn't made the king.

    Plus we simply don't know why nobody was able to get to Raftel. Maybe it's just the fact that they can't read the porneglyphs ant this is the crucial ability to find it. Also I think the ability of Roger to hear the voice of things is the last step of the Conquerer's Haki and enables you to connect with all and everything.
    Well, just look at the bounties and monickers we generally see....

    "strawhat" luffy
    "Pirate hunter" zoro
    "Black leg" sanji
    "cyborg" franky
    "soul king or humming" brook
    "cat burglarl" nami
    "king of snipers" sogeking
    "hawk eyes"
    heavenly yatsha
    The Star Clown
    Red-Haired
    Mighty Drinker
    Crescent Moon Hunter
    Knight of the Sea

    and so on...

    Those are pretty standard pirate names. How many of those are not awesome? How many of those don't sound like the name of a guy who successfully fights crime? One of them even sounds like the guy we know would be awesome to party with....Granted there are a few nicknames which do suggest attrocious activities but those are the minority.... by a longshot.

    Would it have killed the world government to not call roger "the pirate king"? Wouldn't it make sense to call him something like "Rapist McAsshole" or at least something which did not sound kinda possitive and awesome? Ok, being called a pirate can be pretty negative but then again there are plenty of people out there who are proud to be pirates. And then, WTH is the excuse for BW? How does it get more positive than "The worlds strongest man"? The world government could have gone to war with, IDK, "The world's biggest murderer" or "Necrophilia Whitebeard" but they had to call him the world's strongest.... Its as easy as reprinting his wanted poster. Its not like the monicker even has to be true, the world government has the means and authority to make such stuff up.

  15. #28
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    And true, marines all over the world were excited at the apparent defeat of WB but so what? Nothing good came out of the war.... The marines which were a bigot organization with the authority to do atrocious things was given more authority just to deal with the new wave of piracy. The new wave of piracy dwarfed what roger caused in the past.
    Sure civilians were given a massive incentive to take up Piracy but the way Oda portrayed it, many people want to stop them too.
    There were more people celebrating his death than celebrating his final words of the confirmation of One Piece.
    So I think there are many people who want to work to stop Piracy.
    I think Oda having the panel of that low un-commisioned officer in one of the Blue Seas saying how he aspires to become an officer strong enough to be stationed at HQ was important and conveys that the death of WB can trigger an overturning of the Pirate Era through the Marines gaining more belief.

  16. #29
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Sure civilians were given a massive incentive to take up Piracy but the way Oda portrayed it, many people want to stop them too.
    There were more people celebrating his death than celebrating his final words of the confirmation of One Piece.
    So I think there are many people who want to work to stop Piracy.
    I think Oda having the panel of that low un-commisioned officer in one of the Blue Seas saying how he aspires to become an officer strong enough to be stationed at HQ was important and conveys that the death of WB can trigger an overturning of the Pirate Era through the Marines gaining more belief.
    Well, but that is not the case at all. At least we have no reason to believe it is so.... I mean, the execution of roger and the death of WB did not actually contribute anything positive to the world. The world became more dangerous after the roger thing and WB's scream only made the new world far more unstable and started an arms race between world powers.

    I don't think the panel really shows anything... I mean, what has changed? Overall most of the people in the world hate pirate guts, they despise and curse their existence and descendants. I mean, the main reason to want to kill ace and luffy is not even their crimes, its the fact that they carry the blood of their fathers. The vast mayority of the world hates pirates so much they would kill their kids without a shred of remorse. That is not new in the least. While not normally shown there are quite a few instances in the manga were roger is clearly universally hated in contrast with the usual more positive light he is given. Pirates are a minority in the world, they simply have a lot of power and influence because they gather people with actual power. Still, the vast majority of the world is made by civilians and the marines are an organization large enough to go to war with WB while keeping some semblance of peace in the new world.

    Even if they did inspire people to join the marines, they did so while also inspiring pirates of the world do be worst than they were. So far the war did the exact extreme opposite of overturning the pirate era. It just set up everything for yet another grand battle between superpowers... Its yet another stage for pirates to stand on and make a call to the world. And it will be the third consecutive failure of their grand plan.

  17. #30
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: When there's a Pirate King, are there Yonkou?

    I think pirate king and Yonkou are just titles. There doesn't necessarily have to be yonkou for there to be a pirate king, or vice versa. If there were more than one extremely powerful crew that weren't as strong as Roger's, then they could have been the first "yonkou," or at least with Roger was well.Hell, the idea of Yonkou could have existed for centuries without there ever being a pirate king. I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

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