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Thread: Orochimaru and Sasuke vs. Jiraiya and Naruto

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    Re: Orochimaru and Sasuke vs. Jiraiya and Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Its in the OP. Naruto can use 3 tails mode. Naruto going 4 tails mode even if he does not have control then he would be using 4 tails.... I fail to understand what is so hard to comprehend. His control over it is irrelevant. He can't use more then 3 tails.

    If you whant to argue that way Jman would just move away as Naruto anihilates the both of them after removing the seal. Hell if he get's to 4 tails its already more then this 2 can handle, they can't do anything vs that.

    But to avoid a pointless back and forth you can be my gues and ask anybody around here including the OP if Naruto can get 4 tails. But i seriously find it absurd, Naruto only has 3 tails here. Anything more then that he can't achive.
    Except it doesn't work that way. Naruto has no control of four tails and above, so he's not "using" them. The entire deal with them is that it's Naruto who's being used as a human puppet.

    Orochimaru along showed he could at the very least stall for some time against a four tail Naruto, and that was when he was in a failing body and with damaged arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    If they leave then that would mean they are BFR'in themselfs. JMan leaving would mean Naruto is left behind so his team has a man there. To not be BFR for Sasuke's team 1 of them would need to stay behind. Still in 3 tails he would just cancel the mode and take a sit. Again its just 3 tails TOPS here. Again its in the OP if you don't understand what that means just send a PM to the one that made it. It was clear for the rest of people posting here.
    Also what i meant with leaving is JMan going back a good distance so he is not direcly in Naruto's way, like Yamato when Naruto was fighting Orochimaru. Also EVEN IN THAT MODE he can target people he hates the most. He whent after Deva when in 6 tails and IGNORED the rest of the vilage.

    Also what are you downgrading?
    1-His speed.
    2-His ability to fight (both of 1 and 2 stating how Oro was just playing around).
    3-His control. JMan clearly states he keeps his mind up to 3 tails but you REFUSE to belive its so.
    Except the Op states the fight can extend as far as needed, so Sasuke and Orochimaru would simply have to go after Jiraiya to kill and there would be no BFR on their side. And as shown, Naruto can't just cancel the three tail mode. Except that Deva Path outright attacked him. Anyone who comes at him is seen as an enemy, as we saw with Sakura being targeted.

    Speed? I've argued against the idea that he's faster then Sasuke, as there's no evidence to support such an idea. I provided two examples where he was being outrun. At best you could claim he's even with base Sasuke, given evens with Orochimaru. Fight? Except that Orochimaru was playing around and made it clear he could have gone on longer where it not for his body failing. Control? Outright pointed to an example showing his clone losing control and attacking the other clones before going after the real Naruto. where exactly is the control there? Every single example of Naruto using the cloak has been coupled with a character worrying or fearful, including Naruto himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Well of course he was but how does that translates to:
    1-He was somehow making the Kyuubi do no damage to its host(so the clone does not go poof).
    2-Make the clones feel no pain?

    He was just supresing the Kyuubi power the best he could in the sense that Kyuubi could not start trowing chakra at Naruto to make him go Kyuubi mode. He failed at a point and the Kyuubi started trowing tails.
    If he was actively keeping the Kyuubi's chakra down, then that would obviously be lessening the effects. Otherwise he wouldn't need to be doing it actively but only at a manifestation.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    He likes war, he likes fighting but here even after he KNEW Naruto could 1 shoot him with biju dama he was still the same... After he knew that he could not even hurt Naruto he was upseat that he would need to stop having fun... So he knew that he can DIE and that he can't hurt Naruto but he still wanted to have fun fighting the Kyuubi... It was an interesting fight for him as he has never done that before. Orochimaru vs Sarutobi was only going nuts when he was getting sealed. Same for Sasuke, he stopped when he was going to lose... Well actualy when he closed to lost already. Like let's say if Naruto would have hit him with that bijudamage and he was down and had only seconds to live.
    When has Orochimaru been shown to like war or fighting? He has never actively challenged anyone unless he had an advantage. As mentioned before, when Orochimaru is in danger, he doesn't mess around or have a smile on his face.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    But he still had a host body that he was attacked to... If he could exist like that why even get host bodies? HE HIMSELF state how he would die if his body would get obliterated by that Bijudama.... Again at all times he was attacked to some body.
    A host body he was hiding in, because it's obvious existing as mere chakra would eventually wear down. He needs a physical body to create/replenish his chakra. But Orochimaru himself, his true form, has nothing to do with what host he's in. His real form is the White Snake, which we were told was connected to his Yamata form.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    JMan himself was able to stop the 4 tails Naruto something that Oro failed to do (yes he colapsed but he just about run out of options when his sword failed, perhaps his Hydra mode but that is it). Also JMan stopped him when JMan was also tring to protect Naruto... Again he can't take damage like Oro but he can avoid it or protect himself with other crep. At least 1 of them actualy stopped the Kyuubi.

    The thing is Sasuke could die from 1 hit if he is not carefull... That could happen very fast. What if Sasuke ends up with 1 hand and cant perform jutsus? Happened to Oro after some seconds of fighting.
    But if this is just 3 tails mode JMan is also there to help. Naruto has his brain up to that and can work with JMan to a degree. Hell JMAN said so himself.
    The problem is, Orochimaru wasn't attempting to stop Naruto, but merely fight. And really, there's no reason, considering Orochimaru has knowledge of Naruto's seal too, that Orochimaru couldn't do like Jiraiya and make a seal.

    Anyone here could die from one hit if not careful. Sasuke knows how to take on a Jinchuuriki and has the means to fight at a range where he would have plenty of room to maneuver. And Jiraiya said no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    How does that change? Well what if i just whent to take the flower behind you but then you move out of the way and say how you dodge a punch fro me? Think for yourself. Naruto's goal was to grab the tree to pull himself from the falling bridge. Oro was just in the way.
    Also about the arms i told you he started to move out of the way long before Naruto could move them out of there. He just anticipated what Naruto would do. its not like he showed that he can actualy dodge them. Its like Naruto in base mode dodging Amaterasu by hiding behind a wall before Sasuke can even shoot it out...
    Now i provided a close up pic to you, its in the lower chest just above the belly. Now add the the force that was trusted in (to trow Naruto that distance) and you would have a some insane damage done to his upper chest to. That sword would move uppwords and downwords to.
    He was directly in the path and was able to move out the way of an arm speeding towards him. You running towards me and me moving out the way in time is still me dodging even if you were just running. It's not as if you would be moving slower then if you were actually running for him.

    Is he or is he not outrunning the arm as they come towards him? And insane damage? It's a blade. The wound would be quite clean.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    He just jumped out of the way before the sand got there. Its not like he was going close to the sand and dodging. Its like Sasuke charging at him and him having time to jump up on that tree and Sasuke "hitting" Tobi.

    Also what does range have to do with it? Well its jut that Deidara has all his feats in long range abilities. He has NO feats in speed, reaction times and what not. Dedidara likes using his range and his birds to keep range and shoot. He never showed to be anything of a close ranged figher with speed and reaction times to mach.
    The sand was a few feet away from him and he was able to move out of the way. The difference with that is that Sasuke made it clear he had purposely allowed Deidara to get away.

    But Deidara doesn't have all his feats in long range. We've seen three different times Deidara acting at close range. Heck, he was attempting to fight Sasuke that way until Sasuke proved too fast, purposely choosing to fight on the ground and engage Sasuke there instead of staying on his dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    That is part 1 dude, nothing impresive. Naruto had 1 tails. Orochimaru was able to take something like that TO THE FACE and got back up like nothing happened. Who knows how it was done. Perhaps its a hit with the palm.
    We saw the claws dig into him. And we're still talking about a hit from naruto in his cloaked form.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Yeah:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/294/10

    And not only his claws but the claws from the hands that grow(chakra arms). Oviously he has more power in 4 tails but the attack type is slashing.
    So factoring in Sasuke being able to avoid a lethal hit with swords works here too.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Not that is to the sides of the chest and again ITS NOT impresive. He probably had no vitals hit. Danzou WITH NO BLOODY HEARTH was standing and almost killed Sasuke with that jutsu...
    It shows Sasuke can take non-lethal damage and keep going, which ties into him being able to avoid a lethal blow for something less lethal. And Danzo could barely walk and had to resort to a technique that activated with his death.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Link above with Oro going in half... Bee doing a charge on Sasuke and Kisame did damage that WOULD KILL THEM if not for the healing and that was not a slashing move, more like a blunt damage from a charge.
    Now Juugo was full of armour man, he even had a bloody shield in front of himself... Come on seriously.. Also those where more like blunt attacks... Raikage can cut the bloody 8 tails horn down if he usses a piercing type of attack. Now why did he not use it? Plot no jutsu of course.
    You argued that Orochimaru taking Tsunade's punch would have normally done more, yet Kirabi who's as strong did blunt damage too and said damage wasn't deep. Same with Ee, who attack didn't make more then a fist size hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    No, you never did see Sasuke take any damage better then Oro. A punch from Tsunade >>>>>> All the crep Sasuke was able to take...
    As pointed out above, there's nothing to show that Tsunade's punch would have done more damage to anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Because we noticed Naruto can hit so hard with his limbs to set off small explosions and rip Oro's limbs off... Because Sakura got only a casual swipe that i am not even sure Kyuubi was aiming at her... She was just around when Naruto was moving his tails....
    Because we all know 1 tails = 3 tails in power of course....
    Right, and said explosion did what to Orochimaru's head? It was made pretty clear that he did aim at Sakura. Sasuke can handle three tails as we have seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Naruto could heal from that Kunai like nothing happened man. Naruto can tank and heal the damage, Sasuke can not... 1 hit and its over, 1 bloody hit. Its like telling me Naruto is never going to land a clear hit on him.
    Naruto had 1 tail back then.. Let's also compare 4 tails shield that can block Oro's sword with Sasuke fireball right?
    Also WE DON'T KNOW that raiton can do shit to the kyuubi shied. THOSE WHERE ARMS that got cut by the raiton chain BUT a Raikiri direcly to the body from Kakashi did NO damage, it could not pierce shit. Its a big diference from body armour to hands poping out of the ground.
    Even if Sasuke could get some damage trough the shield it would be healed instantly.
    A lightning charged kunai could behead Naruto and there's no healing from that. As long as Sasuke doesn't turn his back on Naruto, Naruto wouldn't be able to get a clean hit. We know that Sasuke is capable of handing a three tail Jinchuuriki. Why are you applying the feat of the secondary cloak with the initial cloak, one that was both shown capable of being pierced and requiring an additional shield to defend with? Even if Naruto could heal the damage, it would take him out of the game while he did, more then enough time to land a more finishing blow.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    He first needs to know that he is going to take that damage. We know multiple people in this manga who could tricked or just did not notice the attack till it was to late.
    Why wouldn't Sasuke be aware that he could be in danger of taking damage? The only way he would be caught off guard would be if he already believed Naruto had been taken down.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Coming out of the ground yes as you can see Naruto sticking his hands into the ground and then the grow quakes before the hands pop out. But if Naruto summons a lot of them Sasuke would need to do something like Kakashi to get away. Sasuke's big problem is that he needs to be in melee to do shit. He is a close ranged fighter with a very limited medium range ability to fight.... If he keps out of range he can't do shit to Naruto.
    Except Naruto has not shown being able to summon "alot of them". Why the heck do you keep saying Sasuke needs to be in melee, when he's shown plenty of damaging range techniques? His Chidori Spear would be more then capable of hitting Naruto at long range. And his fire techniques can go on until they hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    If you think its that way then just look at Naruto after going 4 tails to how he is not moving, like at all... In 3 tails he was chasing, running and all other crep.

    As for Deva and Kyuubi. Kyuubi used bijublast, Deva BT and trew that huge rock on him. Then run away as Kyuubi was in the rubble. After that Kyuubi chased close to imeadly after him but Deva lost him in the woods.
    As you can see here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/438/16
    Deva is not losing him to the point he cast ST and then hides behind something. Of course at that point the Kyuubi was also getting pulled up by CT.
    Also In his entire fight Deva could only keep Kyuubi off of him with ST.

    Even Deva said how the Kyuubi power is amaizing.
    Kisame made the same remark and Kirabi wasn't slowed down a bit.

    Um, Naruto was right behind him as Deva Path began to run away. And one of the points of their fight was that Deva Path couldn't keep him away with Shinra Tensei.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    What incident with the clones? Yamato stoped him from range again with WOOD ELEMENT. That is something that effects Naruto in a special way. SASUKE DOE SNOT have long ranged raiton jutsus... Seriously wtf? NAME 1.... It was made CLEAR Sasuke is a medium ranged fighter at best with his raiton spear. Why do you think he could not hit Deidara with crep and needed to trick him?
    Yamato still was able to hit and grab Naruto while he was running around. And Sasuke does have several long range lightning techniques. Deidara moving beyond Sasuke's threshold doesn't change that he is fully capable of reaching quite far with his Chidori Spear.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Yes and that electrocuted stuff stuns you. Whatever anywhay Sasuke got a 1 tails blast. 3 tails blasted the bloody brige away and incapacitated Kabuto. Its a BIG diference from 1 tails to 3 tails and Sasuke's body has the SAME durability as when he was a kid... Belive it or not as you age your flesh is just flesh no matter the age. Sasuke in NORMAL mode has the same durability as Kabuto...
    There is a difference, just like there's a difference between former Sasuke and current Sasuke. Same durability? Are you saying that in the three years, Sasuke didn't toughen up? That's ridiculous. By your logic, all flesh is the same, meaning that Sasuke can endure a hit from Ee like Kirabi did...

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Yes Sasuke only used it when he had no other choice. Was it for defence, the only way to get the small distance he needs to hit Kabuto or use some huge jutsus to start Kirin off.

    Kabuto noticed Naruto oppening his mouth and that is it. The few miliseconds before it actualy hits him as the force propagates and destroys crep in its way its irrelevant.
    Sasuke knows but its its irrelevant. He also knows it on a diference force so he is not going to worry to much till its to late. Sasuke needs to go close and there he can't dodge even if he knows it... Do you think Konohamaru can dodge Amaterasu even if he knows Sasuke can perform it?
    No other choice? Sasuke had plenty of choices he could've used instead. Him choosing to act in one way does not mean that's the only way. Again, we have seen ion the series itself that the Cursed seal could be used as long as the user wants.

    How is it irrelevant that Sasuke has foreknowledge of what will happen? You keep talking as if Sasuke has to be right next to Naruto to do any damage. Konohamaru has not been shown Sasuke's reactionary abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Short battle no but he can keep tails mode long enough and not colapse... He could hold a bigger version for a long time, even chasing Deva trough the woods.
    And in doing so would have died.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Not some, CONCIOUSNESS... Do you know what that means? You know who you are and what you are doing... There is NO some in the manga.. You keep putting words even in JMan's lips... But seriously getting tired of this... He clearly stated he kept his brain to that point. Go read on the net what that word means... One needs to be aware of crep.
    Also healing a huge hole the size of your fist in Naruto's chest close to instantly more then supports my point.
    Yes, consciousness means being aware, which makes sense when we factor in how when he goes into the higher states, Naruto is unaware of what is being done. It doesn't mean being in control. We outright see a clone in the three tail cloak going crazy and attacking others, even going after the real Naruto before being stopped. So where exactly is this "control"?

    But the hole wasn't healed while Naruto was covered with the cloak, which is the argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    He would have died as he would have released the Kyuubi... Minato only fixed the seal and stopped Naruto from killing himself... The condition he was in after that has nothign to do with Minato. Minato did not heal him or anything.
    Yes, he would have been consumed by the Kyuubi's chakra. Minato returned Naruto back to normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    I am sorry but your comparison does not work.. We know that he can use those jutsus to the point he runs out of chakra but his CS woudl give him a boost in all areas and only a moron would not use it constantly if he could...
    He used what was needed and using those kunai and that big trowing one (forgot the name) actualy paid off as he hit Itachi(yes i know its not one afte another but Sasuke actualy hit him with something like that). There is no need to use all the variations of you jutsus in a fight if you have something that applies better to a given situation BUT CS is diferent, it provides a boost to everything. Its like Naruto choosing to fight in mase mode and not in SM even if he could... It makes 0 sense.

    Also Chidori variant:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/387/11
    Another:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/389/4
    And here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/384/9

    Yes some of them where in genjutsu world but its not relevant. He did not forget to use them. He used them as best as he could.
    The comparison works fine, as we have seen in the series other characters use the Cursed Seal continuously. he does not need to use it continuously because he's already quite skilled without it. And as mentioned, against Itachi, he had a plan. Let's try an example you can understand. Despite Sage Mode boosting all his abilities, Jiraiya regularly chose to fight outside it, even though thanks to Ma and Pa, he could use it continuously without worry. Kirabi, despite having a great relationship with the Hachibi and not having to worry about it taking his chakra, does not use his secondary cloak right off the bat in every battle. Just because someone has an enhancement doesn't mean they must use it all the time.

    Using lightning flow is not the same as using the Chidori variations. You're the one who stated that Sasuke was using everything he had, even though he was in fact not using everything he had. He didn't even use half his available arsenal.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Naruto showed to be able to go Kyuubi mode for long times, long enough to almost kill JMan, long enough to stop Orochimaru, long enough to fight Deva, run after him trough the forest, get stuck in CT for some good time, go even to 9 tails (well 8 and a bit, almost 9) and go out of it perfecly fine. Its as Naruto grew so his ability to take the damage.
    Naruto has neither been shown willingly going into his cloak form or being able to come out of it willingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    That blunt force finished Sasuke, he was on his last leg, he was going to die... They neeeded to replace half his chest...

    Spiderman ALWAYS jokes, even when its the end of the world. Oro jokes even to the point he is actualy finished...
    And in this situation, Sasuke has his Cursed Seal and wing to take that damage, which wasn't deep at all.

    No, he doesn't. Again, read the recent fight with the Lizard, no joking. Heck, the first fight with the current Lizard had no jokes either, when Billy was killed. Orochimaru has never joked when he was in actual trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Faster then someone with no impresive speed feats? What would i need for that? OOOHHH how about keeping up with Naruto in 3 tails when Sasuke COULD NOT keep up with Naruto in just some Kyuubi chakra when he had 2 tomoe? Yes part 1 but aparently you like this type of comparisons... Again Sasuke has nothing better then Oro. CS or not.
    No impressive speed feats? How the heck are you ignoring all that we have seen from Sasuke regarding his speed? Um, Sasuke was able to keep up and react to a Kyuubi-powered Naruto, except when he was thrown underwater. Even when Naruto gained the cloak, Sasuke was still keeping up with Naruto himself. And since then, we have seen Sasuke keep up with one of the fastest ninjas in the world, a feat Tsunade was surprised could be done. It literally took Ee's fastest speed to outspeed him. Sasuke has been praised up and down over his speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Reaction times are part of a speed feat bub... If you don't have reaction times who cares you can run at FTL speeds? You are going to hit the first wall.
    Sasuke activated his Sharingan as he was fighting Bee in that sword fighting, he charged in, noticed Bee's skill with the swords and quickly activated his sharingan.

    Also Gaara's sand? That slow crep of a thing? To bad Naruto with just some kyuubi chakra(not tails mode) made Sasuke with 2 tomoe into a statue no? Then just 1 tomoe granted Sasuke the ability to stop Naruto from landing even 1 blow on him... Small diference i think not.. Its is not a sharingan or no sharingan but 1 bloody tomoe.
    Reaction factors in, but isn't speed itself. Sasuke fought with Kirabi for some time before activating his Sharingan.

    Gaara's sand was noted as being considerably fast. Statue? Sasuke could block Naruto even with only two tomoes. Sasuke had trouble not due to his speed, but due to his raw power. And then he got blasted underwater.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Irrelevant. Thsi in no shape or fashion means that he needs to be Minato speedster to keep up... It just means he needs some speed...
    It shows he needs comparable speed to keep up.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Because it would be faster then Sasuke that is why... Its like you tring to dodge a bullet.
    Now Sasuke is flash and i had no bloody idea? He can also go FTL to?
    What? Where is it shown to be faster then Sasuke, who was shown dodging explosions. In the span of stepping on a landmine, Sasuke was able to react, transform, and fly up as it exploded.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    No he states that Naruto keeps HIS consciousness... Aparently you don't know what that is:


    naruto would need to know who he is, who is JMan, what is a rock and so on. He is more feral like more angry and crep but that is it.
    I know what consciousness is, it means as you showed, being aware of what is going on. That doesn't mean though, that Naruto is in control, only that he remembers what happens unlike when he goes into the higher number of tails and has no idea what has happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    I said this in the first post i made... Its only IF Naruto somehow decides to use it... Going by the manga he is going to refuse it (afther Sakura incident) even if he is going to die (probably)...

    He clearly did a stomp here. Naruto would not only not use it but going by what he belives Sasuke can just turn it off... By his own belives this is Naruto in normal mode and JMan vs Sasuke and Oro... I ignored both of those things and tried making an argument but i said from my first post here is that IF Naruto somehow decides to use it... Normal mode Naruto and JMan are going to get owned here. Of course he did not made the argument on how Naruto just stops the Kyuubi chakra as he did not whant to admit its a stomp but he did it in other topics... We both know he did. Personaly i don't belive he can but he does... He made this topic knowing that.
    It's not simply about deciding. The series itself showed a clone going out of control and attacking those who would be his allies.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    As he was forced. That blinding light thing and then later he was following Itachi's plan. He also noticed Susano would be irrelevant as he could not hit Kabuto with arrows and Amaterasu (from Susano) would be a no, no because it would kill Kabuto. He would be wasting chakra to keep it active as he needed something else for that event. Susano would only be used for active defence and considering it goes up instantly he calculated that it would be better to turn it off and try something else to take kabuto down and activate it only when he needs to.
    One time he was forced. The other times he chose to drop it without any external force. and that's the point. Him calculating what to employ it doesn't mean he can only use it a limited amount of time. Him only employing the skeletal and skin version doesn't mean he's only limited to those versions. It simply means he chooses to use it the way he wants too.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Just the OP stating how Naruto can only use 3 tails but if you whant to ignore the OP... Naruto going more then 3 tails losing his mind or not would mean he can achive more then 3 tails. Again i fail to understand how all the people posting here can understand this and you can't. Just ask the OP what he meant by that and be done with it.
    There was no "only" in that statment. Since Naruto doesn't use anything beyond three tails, then he wouldn't be said to be using it, now would he...

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    You need a lot of chakra to snap one out of genjutsu. Just look at Naruto using a TON of it vs Itachi and it did not work. 2 people where needed for that. Its not that easy but when Kyuubi has Naruto in 3 tails .... Its not hard... 3 tails is way more then its needed.
    Bee could not see trough it and the 8 tails only addresed it after it. He never said that he itself could not see. It just told Bee to wake up. There is no indication that it was able to see or not in that event but considering they have 2 separate minds (host and biju) and the fact that a genjutsu effects the hosts brain it should have no influence over the biju.

    The only thing you can argue here is that the biju can see trough the eyes of the host and it could be it. If its that then yes it would mean the biju get's false information to.
    No you don't. It was never said that alot of chakra was needed, only that one had to disurb the caught person's chakra. Sakura sure as heck doesn't have alot of chakra, yet she can easily break hewrself out of a genjutsu. If the Hachibi could see through it, why would it no have warned or freed Kirabi before Itachi revealed it was a genjutsu? Why would when Sasuke used his genjutsu on Kirabi, the Hachibi not leap right into action instead of faceplanting and taking a few moments to free Kirabi?

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    He enver showed that even vs Deidara when that would help. He used something like that ONLY AFTER HE GOT MS. Yes it was used with a casual sharingan but that was not used before the MS. Also i told you even if Naruto can't move the chakra can move and can form limbs easy and keep fighting to the point Naruto is snaped out of it. I am sure the Kyuubi did not like Naruto but he would snap him out of it mean to die or not. Kyuubi does not whant to die...

    Naruto could refuse to use its power. Naruto could say no when the Kyuubi started trowing chakra at him (if he was not angry or something). Naruto get's more tails when he is not calm or when he is in danger or some other crep. Naruto back then could defenetly refuse the Kyuubi. Only strong emotions can allow the Kyuubi to overcome him.
    What are you talking about? Sasuke showed a paralyzing genjutsu against Orochimaru. And by going into Naruto's mind, Sasuke can take out both of them, since he knows the abilities of a Jinchuriki and that the Kyuubi's inside Naruto.

    If naruto could refuse his power, then he wouldn't have so much trouble pretaining to his cloaked form. Where was the danger or anger when the clone transform and lost control?

  2. #47
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Orochimaru and Sasuke vs. Jiraiya and Naruto

    @Rikudou King
    Quote Quote:
    Except it doesn't work that way. Naruto has no control of four tails and above, so he's not "using" them. The entire deal with them is that it's Naruto who's being used as a human puppet.
    No it works exacly like that. Naruto going 4 tails would BRAKE the rules. He does not have any control but its irrelevant as he would solo the 2. At the end he would revert to his normal form as here he is not stupid enough to remove the seal. That would give him a win by "going around the rules". Again ask the OP or anybody else around here...

    Quote Quote:
    Orochimaru along showed he could at the very least stall for some time against a four tail Naruto, and that was when he was in a failing body and with damaged arms.
    There was no indication he was not at 100% to the point he actualy fell in his face. Also no idea where you got the damaged hands... Orochimaru changed that vesel that lost its hands and had a new one.

    Quote Quote:
    Except the Op states the fight can extend as far as needed, so Sasuke and Orochimaru would simply have to go after Jiraiya to kill and there would be no BFR on their side. And as shown, Naruto can't just cancel the three tail mode. Except that Deva Path outright attacked him. Anyone who comes at him is seen as an enemy, as we saw with Sakura being targeted.
    He does not need to cancel anything. He would chase them down... Its not like anything is forcing him to stay there and do nothing.
    Sakura was hit by 4 tails mode. Enough with this Naruto is not going to attack them and just go about his business or go after his alies... He is going for those that he is fighting againt. It happends any time he whent even above 4 tails. As long as JMan is not going to attak him and keep his distance Naruto is going to go after Oro and Sasuke.

    Quote Quote:
    Speed? I've argued against the idea that he's faster then Sasuke, as there's no evidence to support such an idea. I provided two examples where he was being outrun. At best you could claim he's even with base Sasuke, given evens with Orochimaru. Fight? Except that Orochimaru was playing around and made it clear he could have gone on longer where it not for his body failing. Control? Outright pointed to an example showing his clone losing control and attacking the other clones before going after the real Naruto. where exactly is the control there? Every single example of Naruto using the cloak has been coupled with a character worrying or fearful, including Naruto himself.
    You provided nothing. Vs Deva for example he was DEAD CLOSE to him ... Deva then used CT and saved his but...Orochimaru was not playing around... Keep trowing nonsense bub. Someone who knows he can get killed, get's limbs ripped off and so on IS NOT playing around... Control? JMan stating he has that to 3 tails. Manga itself told you he has control but i know you don't care what the manga showes. Again i got JMan stating ON PANEL Naruto keeps his counciousness up to 3 tails. I also have him KNOWING Orochimaru taunting him about Sasuke... Sure as hell that if he can understand what Orochimaru is telling him he has enough control...

    Quote Quote:
    If he was actively keeping the Kyuubi's chakra down, then that would obviously be lessening the effects. Otherwise he wouldn't need to be doing it actively but only at a manifestation.
    He was lessening nothing. He was just tring his best to SUPRESS the Kyuubi chakra. He can't magicaly change the effects of the chakra on Naruto... Point is he failed multiple times in the training and needed to trow those huge wood things to stop Naruto.

    Quote Quote:
    When has Orochimaru been shown to like war or fighting? He has never actively challenged anyone unless he had an advantage. As mentioned before, when Orochimaru is in danger, he doesn't mess around or have a smile on his face.
    Let's see the fights he had.
    Vs Sarutobi he was damn happy and telling him how he likes war and stuff like that.
    Vs Sasuke in the forest again happy as hell AND VERY pleased when Sasuke used that fire combo to stop him.
    Vs Naruto he was happy as hell to be able to test his powers.

    Also he was not mesing around lol. He did not pop his Hydra mode but used a lot of jutsus on Kyuubi. A LOT MORE THEN VS SARUTOBI, well aside from the ET zombies.

    He was ENJOING himself in a fight where HE HIMSELF stated Naruto can kill him.

    Quote Quote:
    A host body he was hiding in, because it's obvious existing as mere chakra would eventually wear down. He needs a physical body to create/replenish his chakra. But Orochimaru himself, his true form, has nothing to do with what host he's in. His real form is the White Snake, which we were told was connected to his Yamata form.
    Show me Orochimaru existing with no host body. You can be my gues and show me the manga panels this happened.

    Quote Quote:
    The problem is, Orochimaru wasn't attempting to stop Naruto, but merely fight. And really, there's no reason, considering Orochimaru has knowledge of Naruto's seal too, that Orochimaru couldn't do like Jiraiya and make a seal.
    I am sure that at that point JMan did not had the seal he gave Kakashi or he would not have a hole in his belly(i dont even think it works at that point). As for the belly seal seriously don't think it works as you need to hold Naruto still, get somehow trough the chakra shield and so on. Its not easy to push your chakra trough a charka seal (to place the seal). Whatever seal Kakashi had was diferent as it acted on the Kyuubi chakra direcly.

    If Jman had a seal just create a clone, Naruto attacks it and then put the seal on his head. Simple. But i am sure as hell that only Yamato can stop Naruto at that point.


    Quote Quote:
    Anyone here could die from one hit if not careful. Sasuke knows how to take on a Jinchuuriki and has the means to fight at a range where he would have plenty of room to maneuver. And Jiraiya said no such thing.
    Sure he does, it worked wonders vs Bee... How many times he died now? 4 or so? Even in a 4 man team? IMPRESIVE SKILL THERE bub.
    Sorry but Sasuke is not the OP freak you try to pass him for.

    Quote Quote:
    He was directly in the path and was able to move out the way of an arm speeding towards him. You running towards me and me moving out the way in time is still me dodging even if you were just running. It's not as if you would be moving slower then if you were actually running for him.
    How 1 would punch or just try to grab something even if you are in the way is diferent.
    First its the speed. Nobody would move the hand as fast as he can or he would hit whatever he is tring to grab and knock it over or hit the pipe, tree or whatever at a to grater speed to grab it eficiently(Naruto would destroy the bloody tree and have nothing to grab....). You also would focus on the object and not what you need to hit. You done make corse corection based on what your target does as you are aiming for the bloody tree.
    Naruto was aiming to grab the tree but you are tring to make it pass as a dodging feat when Oro was not the target... Also look at the range... Naruto trows that hand from a huge range.

    Quote Quote:
    Is he or is he not outrunning the arm as they come towards him? And insane damage? It's a blade. The wound would be quite clean.
    You do understand that is a speed feat where he is able to close the distance on Orochimaru after Orochimaru had some 20-30 meters head start right? Not only that he is able to GET TO HIM. Yeah... Aparently you like giving me feats on how Orochimaru and Sasuke can't dodge shit even if they have a HUGE lead... Well GG.
    Told you before Orochimaru get's a huge head start before the hands even start chasing after him...

    Quote Quote:
    The sand was a few feet away from him and he was able to move out of the way. The difference with that is that Sasuke made it clear he had purposely allowed Deidara to get away.
    First off you show me a crep attack with slow speed (who cares he dodged it) and second all he did IS JUMP UP. Again slow attack that Sasuke in part 1 could make it look like kids play... The same Sasuke that Naruto with just some kyuubi chakra made into something of a statue before the 3 tomoe sharingan.
    Again why the hell would this matter? Slow attack so i don't give a damn.

    Quote Quote:
    But Deidara doesn't have all his feats in long range. We've seen three different times Deidara acting at close range. Heck, he was attempting to fight Sasuke that way until Sasuke proved too fast, purposely choosing to fight on the ground and engage Sasuke there instead of staying on his dragon.
    Deidara is slow by any definition of the big hitters in this manga. He has just no speed feats you can show. Nothing. Dodging sand by just jumping on his bird is no feat.

    Quote Quote:
    We saw the claws dig into him. And we're still talking about a hit from naruto in his cloaked form.
    The claws are on the outside:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/291/4
    The chakra claws ripp crep:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/294/10

    In essence he got a blund attack, more or less like vs Tsunade.

    Also look at this:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/292/8
    Yes Sasuke is sure dodgin that... Also yeah normal mode Sasuke is sure walking out of it.

    Quote Quote:
    So factoring in Sasuke being able to avoid a lethal hit with swords works here too.
    What the bloody hell would a sword do? Naruto would trow it out of his hand like NOTHING and then impact his face... Sasuke can't even track this. You try stoping a train with a Katana... Se how that goes for you.

    Quote Quote:
    It shows Sasuke can take non-lethal damage and keep going, which ties into him being able to avoid a lethal blow for something less lethal. And Danzo could barely walk and had to resort to a technique that activated with his death.
    Considering Danzou can act like that i see nothing impresive and Sasuke avoiding death and only getting just about incapacitate is not that impresive. Naruto with a swipe would effect a way greater area then just that sword.

    Quote Quote:
    You argued that Orochimaru taking Tsunade's punch would have normally done more, yet Kirabi who's as strong did blunt damage too and said damage wasn't deep. Same with Ee, who attack didn't make more then a fist size hole.
    I don't get it? What are you tring to prove? Tsunade obviously can do way more damage with a blunt attack then those 2?
    Quote Quote:
    As pointed out above, there's nothing to show that Tsunade's punch would have done more damage to anyone else.
    Haha sure, tell that to Madara...
    Go right ahead and show me Sasuke taking something that can do this:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/577/3

    Naruto even with that bigger version of Rasegan (odama or whatever) could not even crack ribbets mode Susano...

    Then how about this?:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/577/6

    Then Madara getting ripped appart from 1 punch.. Yeah anything like that going Sasuke's way would make him into little pieces. Made a hole in him:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/577/9

    You even tring to argue can survive, hell stay in 1 piece CS mode or not after 1 punch is not only absurd but also completly inlogical.

    Sasuke never got anything that would put it close to the damage 1 punch from Tsunade would do.

    Quote Quote:
    Right, and said explosion did what to Orochimaru's head? It was made pretty clear that he did aim at Sakura. Sasuke can handle three tails as we have seen.
    Because the hit on Oro's head was not with his chakra claws bub. The claws MISSED his face. For Sakura he just swiped her aside.. It was nothing.
    When have we seen Sasuke handling 3 tails?!?! Also Naruto's 3 tails can't even be compared to the other biju's 3 tails... The 9 tails would stomp the other biju's... Well perhaps not the 8 tails but even that can't even get close to the 9 tails power. The Kyuubi has as much power as some 5 other bijus instantly trowing a flashdamage to coutner that.
    Quote Quote:
    A lightning charged kunai could behead Naruto and there's no healing from that. As long as Sasuke doesn't turn his back on Naruto, Naruto wouldn't be able to get a clean hit. We know that Sasuke is capable of handing a three tail Jinchuuriki. Why are you applying the feat of the secondary cloak with the initial cloak, one that was both shown capable of being pierced and requiring an additional shield to defend with? Even if Naruto could heal the damage, it would take him out of the game while he did, more then enough time to land a more finishing blow.
    What? A kunai would do what? HAHA yes and Chidori can't perice a lvl 2 chakra shield but some stupid chakra on a pen is going to cut his head off... Then the sword that can cut adamantine can pierce his lvl 2 form but a pen like that would cut his head off... You seriously need to let me know when you are going to get serious. Yes the first form is not as powerfull as the second but the second for Naruto is just 1 tails more then the 3th.... That is how powerfull his chakra tails are... its not like Bee where he can get more tails with normal mode.. Naruto goes direcly into lvl 2 when he get's to 4 as he has THAT Much chakra/tail. There is no way in hell that pen can cut his head off or even put a dent in that shield.

    Also i love the fact that you are telling me why do i argue for 4 tails feat in 3 tails mode when you are arguing 1 tails mode to 3 tails... Are you actualy serious? You keep stating how the 1 tails needed this or that and apply to 3 tails and that is 2 tails in between.. For me its only 1 (does not matter its mode 2, its just 1 tail for Naruto) but you ask me why do i compare stuff? Please...

    Sasuke would get ripped appart and nothing short of Kirin can do any serious damage pass that 3 tails shield.

    Quote Quote:
    Why wouldn't Sasuke be aware that he could be in danger of taking damage? The only way he would be caught off guard would be if he already believed Naruto had been taken down.
    How many times that happened vs Bee? Ha!
    Sasuke is not perfect...

    Quote Quote:
    Except Naruto has not shown being able to summon "alot of them". Why the heck do you keep saying Sasuke needs to be in melee, when he's shown plenty of damaging range techniques? His Chidori Spear would be more then capable of hitting Naruto at long range. And his fire techniques can go on until they hit.
    Bub go read his fight with Deidara, he is a medium range fighter at best.
    But here he is going to hold back and charge up Kirin or go in with Chidori on his hand as nothing else would even make Naruto notice him.

    Quote Quote:
    Kisame made the same remark and Kirabi wasn't slowed down a bit.

    Um, Naruto was right behind him as Deva Path began to run away. And one of the points of their fight was that Deva Path couldn't keep him away with Shinra Tensei.
    Fine then look at Naruto not doing anything fast in 4 tails and just sitting there. Not really relevant anyway its 3 tails here.

    Deva obviously got a little head start as he moved first. Also Deva COULD stop his movements to some degree with ST. If not for his ST when Kyuubi jumped at him he would be dead (well as dead as he could be).

    Quote Quote:
    Yamato still was able to hit and grab Naruto while he was running around. And Sasuke does have several long range lightning techniques. Deidara moving beyond Sasuke's threshold doesn't change that he is fully capable of reaching quite far with his Chidori Spear.
    Where has he hit and grabbed Naruto when running around? I don't remember the event. Post the scan and i wil ltry to addres it after. What Naruto targeting him, was Naruto distracted by something else? Etc.
    Also tagging him is just as irrelevant as he can tank just about anything with his shield and his regen factor... Hell if he needs he can place even more shield around himself like in his 1 tails mode...
    Sasile dpes mpt have AMY long range raiton techs... For the last time those are medium ranged. The best thing you have at range is his fireball in his CS mode but that would disipate faster as it travels and Naruto could just ignore that even at point blank range...

    Quote Quote:
    There is a difference, just like there's a difference between former Sasuke and current Sasuke. Same durability? Are you saying that in the three years, Sasuke didn't toughen up? That's ridiculous. By your logic, all flesh is the same, meaning that Sasuke can endure a hit from Ee like Kirabi did...
    Sasuke can't increase his body durability if he does not use a jutsu or some special power. Raikage for instance got some of it from his father that had a special body. Bee has the biju chakra in him and he is big as hell. Some people in this manga have better durability because of some special circumstances but Sasuke's flesh would not get a boost in durability as years go by if he does not use some jutsu.

    Also don't act smart... You know what i meant... If i say that batman has the same flesh as a 2 years would you compare that flesh with Superman's the way you did above?

    Quote Quote:
    No other choice? Sasuke had plenty of choices he could've used instead. Him choosing to act in one way does not mean that's the only way. Again, we have seen ion the series itself that the Cursed seal could be used as long as the user wants.
    What other choice would he had? Also make 1 up that would provide the same results and not leave the posibility of him getting killed. Again provide me with something.

    When have we noticed in the series that CS could be used as long as the user wants?


    Quote Quote:
    How is it irrelevant that Sasuke has foreknowledge of what will happen? You keep talking as if Sasuke has to be right next to Naruto to do any damage. Konohamaru has not been shown Sasuke's reactionary abilities.
    Aside from Kirin and a chidori in CS nothing is going to put a dent in Naruto so yeah he needs the range.
    What that fireball? No damage... hell even if Naruto needs another shield.
    Raiton spear? use 1 of your hands to push it away like nothing.... Or just dodge as you are closing in on Sasuke... Good reason its there why he never used that move on ANYTHING moving at hight speed... Controling something that long can't be done in a way to hit a fast moving target.

    Sasuke just has a little info on him... He has no idea how much more powerfull teh 3 tails is... He could try to block with his wings only getting his wings ripped off....

    Quote Quote:
    And in doing so would have died.
    NOT. I love how you ignore how he would die... IF HE WOULD REMOVE THE SEAL ON THE BLOODY KYUUBI. I hope caps works better for you. He would be just FINE if he would refuse to release the Kyuubi. Stop IGNORING why. Naruto was in insane pain and lost hope, he did not know what to do. It was the PLOT. As long as the seal is there and HOLDS Naruto is fine.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes, consciousness means being aware, which makes sense when we factor in how when he goes into the higher states, Naruto is unaware of what is being done. It doesn't mean being in control. We outright see a clone in the three tail cloak going crazy and attacking others, even going after the real Naruto before being stopped. So where exactly is this "control"?
    He is not attacking anything on purpose. He was inside the crowed area and started moving. Also he did not attack the real Naruto... How stupid do you think the Kyuubi is to kill Naruto? The Kyuubi protected it on multiple ocasions. Yes he is feral, yes he is not under complete control and is driven by rage but he has enough sel aware to know WHO the enemy is (going after Deva and ignoring the rest of the vilage, going after Orochimaru and ignoring Yamato and Sakura even if they where at the same distance), he also knows who he is fighting and knows about Sasuke. Orochimau kept pushing him into 4 tails state by taunting him with Sasuke.... He wa aware of what he wants, who Sasuke is and what Oro did to him, he could UNDERSTAND what was told to him.

    Quote Quote:
    But the hole wasn't healed while Naruto was covered with the cloak, which is the argument.
    So? even more chakra when the cloack is on. The long term damage is what Naruto HAD, i repeat HAD a problme with. But not anymore as showed after he whent even into 8 tails close to 9. That or it takes so much time its not even a factor here. Also don't tell me Minato also healed his body when he repaired the seal or i would be ignoring that as it makes no sense in hell and Minato does not do healing jutsus.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes, he would have been consumed by the Kyuubi's chakra. Minato returned Naruto back to normal.
    No, Naruto would have had released the Kyuubi himself and the seal was weakening for some time. Minato just fixed it to full. Kyuubi could not get out of Naruto would not take out the seal... Why do you think the Kyuubi kept tring to get him to do that.


    Quote Quote:
    The comparison works fine, as we have seen in the series other characters use the Cursed Seal continuously. he does not need to use it continuously because he's already quite skilled without it. And as mentioned, against Itachi, he had a plan. Let's try an example you can understand. Despite Sage Mode boosting all his abilities, Jiraiya regularly chose to fight outside it, even though thanks to Ma and Pa, he could use it continuously without worry. Kirabi, despite having a great relationship with the Hachibi and not having to worry about it taking his chakra, does not use his secondary cloak right off the bat in every battle. Just because someone has an enhancement doesn't mean they must use it all the time.
    Eh no. JMan did not use SM constantly as he needs:
    a A lont time to get into it.
    b He needs to summon Ma/Pa to help him and he can't just do that casualy.

    Bee ... well is Bee... Remember he was taking notes and raping before Sasuke and his entire team? He does not take seriously most of the things he does... Then we also have the plot....

    Look at Naruto since he has RM or SM you don't see him fighting in normal mode, like at all.
    Now Sasuke only activates that mode at critical points in his fights when he really needs it. Its always part of a plan, like getting the extra range to hit Deidara, taking a bomb, shooting the big fire things in the sky and so on. He does not just activates it and starts fighting with Chidori and stuff.

    Quote Quote:
    Using lightning flow is not the same as using the Chidori variations. You're the one who stated that Sasuke was using everything he had, even though he was in fact not using everything he had. He didn't even use half his available arsenal.
    He used enough jutsus for what he needed. What you whant Naruto to use the 98984938593 rasengan variations to belive he whent all out?
    Also those things to look like Chidori variations to me. Take his raiton katana, its raiton on it but he is using a Chidori to make it like that.

    Quote Quote:
    Naruto has neither been shown willingly going into his cloak form or being able to come out of it willingly.
    Let me gues you did not read the entire post before posting this?
    I am aware of that but the OP made a stomp and i made an argument asuming Naruto ends up using them...

    Quote Quote:
    And in this situation, Sasuke has his Cursed Seal and wing to take that damage, which wasn't deep at all.
    His... wings? Like the damage that got Kisame even trough his Samehada and we all know Kisame's durability? Come on lol. Also it was deep enough to put him close to death and he would have died shortly after. Its just not Kishi stile to show guts and crep (he used to show some but not now). That was clearly not onl just what it was showed in the manga as just some piled flesh and skin would not put him in that condition.

    Quote Quote:
    No, he doesn't. Again, read the recent fight with the Lizard, no joking. Heck, the first fight with the current Lizard had no jokes either, when Billy was killed. Orochimaru has never joked when he was in actual trouble.
    Of course he was not doing that constnatly and in all his fights. But he is the "joker" in any teams he was in. Of coruse he can get pissed off to.
    Also i did not say Oro is the type to joke, he is the type to enjoi a chalange.

    Quote Quote:
    No impressive speed feats? How the heck are you ignoring all that we have seen from Sasuke regarding his speed? Um, Sasuke was able to keep up and react to a Kyuubi-powered Naruto, except when he was thrown underwater. Even when Naruto gained the cloak, Sasuke was still keeping up with Naruto himself. And since then, we have seen Sasuke keep up with one of the fastest ninjas in the world, a feat Tsunade was surprised could be done. It literally took Ee's fastest speed to outspeed him. Sasuke has been praised up and down over his speed.
    He was only doing that after he got the 3 tomoe. Before that he was a punching bag for Naruto. Sasuke was keeping up with Naruto with 1 tails because of his sharingan. He can do that to even Bee. His eyes worked back then just as good as now. Knowing where the dude in front of you is going to be fore he get's there is a HUGE bonus. Let's see him turn off his sharingan and doing that. He can only do that as he can predict the future but his limbs move a slower then Naruto's for instance in 1 tails (back then). He could keep up with slower movement as he knew where the hand would be before getting there and so start moving faster then normaly.

    Emm we are comparing him here with other people in that league. To people like Orochimaru and stating he does not have impresive feats...
    Vs Raikage? Dodge 1 hand attack.
    Vs Bee? Got owned in sword fight. Dodged completly linear attacks that where more then easy to do because of his sharingan (and the speed people in his league have).

    Sasuke is NOT a real speeder like Minato (ST included), Raikage, Naruto, Bee and so on. He is on Oro's level... Itachi when half blind, close to death, in pain and so on was keeping up with him just fine man.
    Quote Quote:
    Reaction factors in, but isn't speed itself. Sasuke fought with Kirabi for some time before activating his Sharingan.
    No he did not. You can't prove that. You have no bloody idea at what point he activated it.
    You can be my gues and show me at what point he activated his sharingan. Not that it matters he got owned with his sharingan on anywhay.
    Quote Quote:
    Gaara's sand was noted as being considerably fast. Statue? Sasuke could block Naruto even with only two tomoes. Sasuke had trouble not due to his speed, but due to his raw power. And then he got blasted underwater.
    Sure its fast. Fast enough that kid Sasuke can dodge it easy.

    As for the other part are you serious? Moving at that speed underwater and pounding Sasuke is way greater feat then if he would be outside the water. You try moving as fast as you can on the outside underwater.

    Quote Quote:
    It shows he needs comparable speed to keep up.
    Not at all.. Put him vs Naruto with a sharingan and with no sharingan... Then do the same vs Bee, Raikage and whatever else and see him getting owned completly.

    Quote Quote:
    What? Where is it shown to be faster then Sasuke, who was shown dodging explosions. In the span of stepping on a landmine, Sasuke was able to react, transform, and fly up as it exploded.
    Great... He was able to... Jump up... Transformation is just about instant aparently so its no feat. Sasuke can notice crep before it happend with his sharingan ... So he had enough time to take actions.

    Quote Quote:
    I know what consciousness is, it means as you showed, being aware of what is going on. That doesn't mean though, that Naruto is in control, only that he remembers what happens unlike when he goes into the higher number of tails and has no idea what has happen.
    He has enough brains to know who to go after...

    Quote Quote:
    It's not simply about deciding. The series itself showed a clone going out of control and attacking those who would be his allies.
    If Superman sneezes in a crowded area that does not mean he is attacking those people... Just that they where there... Again Kyuubi would NOT kill Naruto ffs... If anything Kyuubi made sure to keep him alive.. Where is the log in kyuubi going after NARUTO?!?!? Naruto was just... around when the kyuubi started moving.

    Quote Quote:
    One time he was forced. The other times he chose to drop it without any external force. and that's the point. Him calculating what to employ it doesn't mean he can only use it a limited amount of time. Him only employing the skeletal and skin version doesn't mean he's only limited to those versions. It simply means he chooses to use it the way he wants too.

    The diference is 1 power would help him at any point in his fight but choosed to use it only when he really needed. The other one (Susano) would not help him and only get in his way to achive his goal.

    Quote Quote:
    There was no "only" in that statment. Since Naruto doesn't use anything beyond three tails, then he wouldn't be said to be using it, now would he...
    You do know you are using semantics and strawman arguments right?
    If you whant me to use even 6 tails Naruto here is all for the better as he competly stomps and then when he cools down goes to normal mode... Even if JMan dies who cares...

    But again go right ahead and ask the OP if i can use Naruto in whatever tails i feel like even if he has no control over that. Works for me seriously.
    If you whant to go that way we don't even have a fights... Its a bloodbath.

    Quote Quote:
    No you don't. It was never said that alot of chakra was needed, only that one had to disurb the caught person's chakra. Sakura sure as heck doesn't have alot of chakra, yet she can easily break hewrself out of a genjutsu. If the Hachibi could see through it, why would it no have warned or freed Kirabi before Itachi revealed it was a genjutsu? Why would when Sasuke used his genjutsu on Kirabi, the Hachibi not leap right into action instead of faceplanting and taking a few moments to free Kirabi?
    No dude, JMan clearly state (not going to look for the links as it takes a lot of time as i don't remember exacly where it was at, probably in his fight with Itachi after he got stuck in the genjutsu) that you need to apply an even more powerfull chakra after you stopped your chakra flow.
    Now you are actualy comparing the crep nothing genjutsu Sakura was captured with to Itachi level of 1 of Sasuke or something like that? SERIOUSLY? Come on man... Diferent levels dude.
    As for Bee it could be before it was to fast before he could react. It all happened really fast. We noticed panels but those panels happened 1-2 seconds.

    Quote Quote:
    What are you talking about? Sasuke showed a paralyzing genjutsu against Orochimaru. And by going into Naruto's mind, Sasuke can take out both of them, since he knows the abilities of a Jinchuriki and that the Kyuubi's inside Naruto.
    That is questionable. It was inside his special world. Why would he not use it under nromal circumstances and only when inside that world? Also you don't know what it was for sure. What Itachi used for one on Oro was something like that but Oro was still able to move his arms. Vs She or Bee they dropped like nothing. Again special case there and you don't know if Oro could or could not move on the outside. Perhaps Sasuke there just took over the dimension or something. Also if you notice in the following panels he actualy moves a little and states how Sasuke is going to be his. He did not look convinced that would work on him.

    Quote Quote:
    What are you talking about? Sasuke showed a paralyzing genjutsu against Orochimaru. And by going into Naruto's mind, Sasuke can take out both of them, since he knows the abilities of a Jinchuriki and that the Kyuubi's inside Naruto.
    Yeah like he did to Bee.... Inside his head Naruto is way more powerfull then someone getting in. Sasuke would have a fraction of his power. Also incapacitating Naruto would not stop the Kyuubi from defending him.
    But i seriously don't see the point of this discussion if you people belive Sasuke can just turn Naruto's chakra off.... Why did he even created a topic where he belived 1 side stomps? Yeah Uchiha fans do that... No idea why.


    Quote Quote:
    If naruto could refuse his power, then he wouldn't have so much trouble pretaining to his cloaked form. Where was the danger or anger when the clone transform and lost control?
    Emm its not only danger. Is strong emoitions, when he get's tired and usses a lot of chakra.... Then he becomes vulnerable. Naruto CAN use willpower to hold the Kyuubi in his cage and refuse the chakra. Naruto at that point was using the charka from the Kyuubi to summon those clones to. He left himself oppen. Of course it depends on the situation. At Oro's hideout Naruto could refuse as it was just leeking out a little. The clone whent into 3 tails. It was the danger of that type of training in using so many clones and wasting so much chakra.

    Naruto was showed to summon A TON of chakra vs Itachi. Then 2 persons where needed to trow there chakra into Naruto to bust him out.
    Last edited by xXan; July 20, 2012 at 09:07 AM.

  3. #48
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Orochimaru and Sasuke vs. Jiraiya and Naruto

    Shortening to points due to discussion getting too long.

    - Pertaining to Naruto and his cloak form: Yes, I understand you were arguing with the assumption that Naruto is eventually forced to use it, and as far as the series shows, that would be considered a terrible thing by both Jiraiya and Naruto.

    How exactly is he using it when it was made abundantly clear that he has no control over it, that he doesn't even know what the heck is going on while it's active. He's not using it, it's the Kyuubi using him. Again, Naruto's clone upon going into the three tail cloak, proceeded to attack his fellow clones and go after the real Naruto. None of them attacked him and instead had begun to run away, yet they were still attacked. So the claim that it was soley due to him being in a crowd doesn't fly. Even if that could be used as an excuse, how exactly does that suggest any sort of control? Would not a person in control have just stood still or as you seem to think he can, merely cancelled the cloak? And the Kyuubi is willing to kill Naruto. He was gonna do so during Pain's Invasion and again when Naruto attempted to grab his chakra.

    As for speed, Naruto was some distances away from Deva Path the whole time and never really closed that gap, even before Chibaku Tensei was used. Deva Path's having a slight head start shouldn't matter if Naruto was as fast as you seem to believe. Just as with Sasuke, I would apply Lee's words here too about speed. And we saw Orochimaru get to where Naruto was before the arms could reach him, even though there was quite some distances between them. How exactly could Naruto not have been moving his cloaked arms at their fastest here or when Orochimaru dodged them? If he was falling and needed the tree to pull himself up, then would he not be acting as fast as possible? And you do realize that Naruto couldn't see what he was grabbing for? So how exactly was he "focusing" solely on it or make a course correction?

    As repeated said, the secondary cloak is not comparable to the initial cloak. The secondary cloak has been shown more defensive and specifically stated to be the chakra densely compacted, while the initial cloak has been gotten through and showed a need for an additional shield to defense with. Naruto in his one tail cloak is comparable to his three tail cloak due to them both being the initial cloak.

    Jiraiya had a seal. The Key Toad mentions that the whole reason Naruto lost control was because Jiraiya had him loosen the seal. Minato saved him by simply fixing the seal, so we know it would work using that. Naruto's problem is one that he still has. Jiraiya references it and makes no mention of it being a past issue. Minato returning the seal back to it's inital state repairing Naruto makes plenty of sense. And Kakashi didn't place a seal on the chakra, he placed it directly on Naruto's forehead. So the initial cloak is not that hard to get through.

    And about the consciousness issue, we have an actual example from the series with Orochimaru, who while conscious inside Sasuke and Anko, had no control over any of their actions. He was simply aware of what was going on around him, but no actual ability to affect external events. Another example would be the Edo summons, who while conscious, have no control over their actions except those allowed by the user. A person can be concsious and have no control over their actions, like a person who's been in an accident or such. Consciousness does not equal control. It simply means being aware of what's going on, unlike with the higher tails as Jiraiya mentions right after.

    The entire point of Minato appearing was because Naruto couldn't resist the Kyuubi. Why do you think Minato had to even make an appearance. You seem to be the one ignoring that it was the Kyuubi who forced open Naruto's seal and was commanding Naruto to come and open the seal. Naruto himself didn't choose to go and open the seal, but was obviously being controlled by the Kyuubi. If Naruto could refuse the Kyuubi, then he would never be troubled by the higher tail numbers. He wouldn't transform into the cloak form like he does.

    If you're arguing that Naruto can't block the Kyuubi if tired or after using alot of chakra, which doesn't make much since considering we've seen Naruto in similar situations without running said risk, then how exactly does it work here with him using so much chakra? And has Naruto not been shown capable of creating hundreds of clones without needing to get chakra from the Kyuubi? So the training for FRS wouldn't have required the Kyuubi's chakra, especially when he had just recently been warned against using it.

    - Pertaining to Orochimaru: What do you mean? Orochimaru outright mentions his host body rejecting him and we later see him bedridden because of it. Changing host didn't fix his arms as Suigetsu recently mentioned. In addition, now that we know that Orochimaru can use natural energy with his own chakra, the odds of him "running out" should actually be less in an extended battle.

    He was playing around. The only method he could die from was from a direct hit of the Bijuu Blast, which he wasn't aware of beforehand and proceeded to counter. You want to show he was serious, then provide another example of where Orochimaru in a tight spot was laughing and joking around. Via genin Sasuke, he held the advantage the entire time and was getting what he wanted. Via Sarutobi, it had nothing to do with war but "setting things in motion and watching Konoha crumble". Orochimaru currently mentioned how he had no interest in war, despite the belief that he would take advantage of the Fourth War. And again, he was enjoying himself against Sarutobi when Sarutobi was being defeated by the Edo Hokages. But when the table was turnt and Sarutobi gain the advantage, Orochimaru stopped laughing and enjoying himself. He got dead serious. Even after he had technically succeeded, he was still upset and serious over what happen. Orochimaru only enjoys a challenge when he's the one with the advantage.

    When Orochimaru fought Sasuke, he fought without having a host body. And Orochimaru currently exist only as chakra. He was revived by Sasuke from his own chakra, without requiring a host body to take over.

    - Pertaining to Sasuke: Sasuke did pretty well against Kirabi til he drop his guard and turnt his back, which I mentioned as being the only real way that Naruto would score a critical blow. But in a direct confrontation, not only was Sasuke able to dodge a blitz from Kirabi in his three tail cloak, but he was able able to employ a genjutsu while Kirabi was a short distances away. If he can do that with Kirabi, why wouldn't he be capable of using his other range techniques against Naruto in a similar situation? I don't see how I'm making Sasuke Op by applying an actual feat against a superior Jinchuuriki to this battle. Sasuke's Great Dragon Fire was shown capable of bursting through stone and all the Chidori variations have the same piercing ability as the regular Chidori. So Sasuke has plenty to threaten a cloaked Naruto with in addition to Kirin.

    How does Deidara flying high in the sky limit stick Sasuke as a medium range fighter? Sasuke may not have unlimited range but he can still reach pretty far in regards to a ground battle. He was well away from Itachi with his Chidori Spear and even against Deidara, the range to the end of his Chidori Spear is clearly quite long.

    Sasuke could dodge Naruto rushing in and swiping at him. Sasuke has no issue with dodging Naruto himself. Sasuke's problem is the chakra branching away in a different direction, which won't be an issue in a blitz or direct attack. And the scan you posted outright shows the four claws digging into Orochimaru's face. Heck, Kirabi hit Sasuke directly in the chest while in his three tail cloak and the area of damage wasn't greater then the area where he hit or all that deep, and Kirabi's physically stronger then Ee even without the cloak. The damage on Sasuke wasn't even below his ribs, which would be right underneath the skin. Look at what happen back in Part One. Cloaked Naruto was making craters and ripping through stone, yet the damage done to Sasuke himself was minor.

    Really? Even in real life, people's flesh can grow to endure considerable trauma. Sasuke was personally being built up by Orochimaru to be his next body. It's obvious that Orochimaru would intend for him to be toughen up for his future role. And that's a fail comparison. Batman is human while Superman is a separate species. But it's good that you brought up Batman, a person who has been shown enduring considerable damage solely through training and has been specifically stated as being able to take more then a regular person. Now with the Cursed Seal, Sasuke would be able to tank the damage even more, even with his wing. Because as we've seen, eve if the wing is damaged to the point of it being lost, that still keeps Sasuke himself from taking said damage. The lost of a wing won't take Sasuke out of the battle, so why not employ it as a mean of protection?

    Other choices? How about instead of shooting his fireballs up into the air, he directly aim at Itachi, who was shown having troubled with avoiding them? Why not employ his Chidori Current when Itachi was close to paralyze Itachi and make it easier to land a finishing blow? What about using the Hidden Shadow Snake Hand or Binding Snake Glare to immobilize Itachi's arms so he couldn't fight back? They all would have provided the same results of wearing Itachi down and eventually forcing him to employ the unknown Susanoo. Using enough techniques to get to a specific point =/= using everything he got. His Chidori variations are specifically named, as oppose to generic chakra flowing.

    The fights with the Sound Five, who all used their Cursed Seals not just in one battle, but another battle a short time later. Neither requiring time to go into it or needing Ma and Pa are limitations on how long Jiraiya can use it. At best, it merely would mean he needs to know beforehand that a battle would be likely, which was the case with Pain. He knew he was going into battle and may not survive, thus telling the Key Toad to go to Naruto. Same with the situation with Itachi and Kisame, Jiraiya knew he was going into battle ahead of time. Surely getting into Sage Mode outside of battle is more favorable then while in battle. So Kirabi gets a pass because of his personality, but Sasuke doesn't despite being similar with his overconfidence? As mentioned before, Naruto needs to use his other modes because he sucks in base mode. But Sasuke has been shown quite skill in base mode. And how would Susanoo have not helped him or get in the way of his goal?

    And no, Sasuke wasn't a "punching bag" for the Kyuubi-powered Naruto. He was shown capable of blocking and attacking, but Naruto simply had more power to forcefully overcome him. Kisame outsped Kirabi underwater, despite Kirabi being faster. As I have repeatedly mentioned, we were specifically told that even if the Sharingan can predict movement, it means nothing if he's not fast enough to keep up. Dodging Ee was confirmed by Tsunade as an outright feat of speed, even before he used his fastest speed. And Sasuke handled Kirabi's speed fine enough for a guy still recovering. And we saw when Sasuke had fought Kirabi without his Sharingan and where he likely activated it. How is Sasuke any less of a speedster then Minato, who showed just as much trouble against Ee and was being kept in pace by Tobi? Um, Itachi wasn't half dead, blind, and in pain until near the end of battle, at which point he wasn't keeping up.

    Breaking genjutsu was never said to require alot of chakra from another person. Jiraiya also only said more power from the person themselves. And that literally makes no sense. Are you claiming that Sakura and Chiyo have more chakra then Naruto does? I see no reason I can't compare Itachi using a basic genjutsu to Sasuke using his Tsukuyomi, especially when Sasuke has preformed just as well with regular genjutsu as Itachi has. What if it is fast? The whole point is to create an opening to land the finishing blow. And how is it question what was done in Orochimaru's inner world? If anything, the fact that Sasuke was able to do that to Orochimaru in his own creation speaks volumes. Seeing as Orochimaru was also able to move when Itachi used it on him, not seeing any difference in strength.

    There's nothing suggesting that the difference in power in Naruto's mind is gonna be great. All that was said was that a person's full power couldn't be used. That's much different from being "way more powerful". The Kyuubi isn't an issue when Sasuke merely has to touch it to cancel it out.

    - Other stuff: Yamato wasn't merely trying, he was actually doing, which is why he was being worn out. It's just like how Minato was suppressing the Kyuubi while Kushina was in labor. The Kyuubi also began to overpower Minato dispute active suppression. A failure once during training doesn't mean anything, especially considering Yamato's admitted inferiority. And Yamato caught the three tail clone that was rampaging against the other clones.

    Slow speed? Again, Gaara's sand was mentioned as being quite fast, especially from his personal collection. Fast enough to require Lee to remove his weights. Fast enough to intercept Ee. Fast enough to create an entire tsunami of sand. There's nothing slow about it. And jumping out of the way of an incoming attack is dodging, especially one that only speedsters like Lee have avoided.

    Um, the damage Tsunade has shown to random objects has been on the same scale as what Ee and Kirabi has shown. Yet when they hit a living target, the scale of damage is nowhere comparable to what was shown on a non-living object. At the very least, Tsunade is comparable to Kirabi, since they're both stronger then Ee. Same with cloak Naruto in Part One as I mentioned. The damage done to a clone is moot since it's a clone and we saw Ee landed a direct blow to Edo Madara and Madara blocked it with ease. You showed them double-teaming him and sending him flying, yet he stood straight up afterward and continued on, instead of being damaged and taken down til he regenerated like the other Edo summons. Explain, how if their hits are so deadly, why we have never seen anyone torn or blown apart by them. The most damage we've seen was from Kirabi blasting Sasuke and Kisame's chests apart and even that wasn't deep.

    When the situation is serious and dire, Spiderman drops the jokes. All of them. Yes, he will occasionally joke in other battles, but those are battles were he can win or at least prevent something terrible from happening. But in a situation where he can't win or fails royally, like with his Uncle Ben, Spiderman sticks to being serious til he's done what's needed.

  4. #49
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Orochimaru and Sasuke vs. Jiraiya and Naruto

    @Rikudou King


    So you are telling me the Kyuubi was attacking himself? You don't see the clone going direcly for ANY of the other Naruto's around... Why would the Kyuubi attack himself when it tried his best over the years to make sure Naruto does not end up dead and even telling Sasuke to don't kill Naruto?!?
    No he was just moving and the others where just in the way. There is no logical way you can argue Kyuubi killing itself. Perhaps if it was jumping on Yamato or sombody else YES but like this the Kyuubi attacking itself is ridicolus. Also NO, a BIG NO. Kyuubi is not tring to kill Naruto, he is tring to kill his consciousness and take over his body. BIG diference. Killing the body would kill it to. Big diference from taking over Naruto and killing his body.

    Also he does know what he is doing. Orochimaur was tauting NARUTO with Sasuke and Naruto whent 4 tails mode... Why would kyuubi go 4 tails mode because Oro was trowing Sasuke's name about? If he knows who Sasuke is, the fact that he wants to protect him and who and what Oro represents then why would he now know who JMan and is and the fact that Sasuke/Oro are his enemies?
    Seriously Oro was not attacking and same for Yamato and the rest on the other side of the brdge but Naruto CHOOSED to go after Oro, he IGNORED the rest.

    As feral as he is he has enough control to know WHO to target. Also you do understand the enemy does not know how much brain power Naruto has in that mode to take advantage of it. Again even JMan stated he keeps his consciousness. The only thing you have is him attacking himself... Maks no sense...
    You need to take note of what JMan states:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/291/9
    In 3 tails he had control of his own actions (not completly obviously) but he had some. Only after the 4'th tail he whent bat crazy. Him going after JMan when JMan means so much to him... Nop... Of course you could argue the same for Sasuke but here we asume he actualy wants him dead or Naruto would start a long boring speech and never go for the kill... Try to reason with him and so on.
    Then read here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/291/16
    How can you state he has no bloody idea what he is doing when he can put up a conversation like that in 3 tails? Seriously he can say all that know Sasuke, Oro and everything else but he would not know to not hit JMan and hit the rest?
    Then here he is able to UNDERSTAND Oro and trigger the 4'th tail:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/292/17
    Seriously he has enough control to target the others and not JMan.


    Oh end before i forget (forgot the last time) the reason Oro kepts his bloody face is not only the fact that Naruto did not hit him direcly with the claws but the fact that he was in 1 tails mode man:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/291/4
    Obviously a big diference. If he was in 3 tails mode Oro's head would have been mush probably.
    This is what happends when its 3 tails:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/292/16
    Also incapacitates normal humans (that Sasuke is aside from his CS mode) with just a scream. That is 3 tails mode.


    Also you belive Deva is slow or what? That dude was damn fast. Think of him dodging multiple FRS, think of Nagato saving Konan back in the day ... Something that applies full well to Deva. What you are telling me Sasuke is going to start running away and Naruto can't get to him? Big deal who cares even if its so. Sasuke tactic of winning the fight can't be "running away to save my life". Also that was his own body moving. For Oro his own limbs where able to get to him after Oro had some 20-30m head start. Oro needed to STOP, grab those chakra limbs and jump shit as he COULD NOT avoid them...
    Also if Naruto could not se the trees he could not see Oro:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/292/11
    Its just a bad angle for us. I am sure he noticed the trees on the other side. Also yes hitting the trees to fast would rip them to pieces.

    For Naruto the 4'th tails goes direcly into lvl 2 as it has that much more chakra. Naruto 3 tails compare to 4'th is like the 2'nd compared to the 3'th. Beyong the 3'th tails he just has so much chakra that the second mode is trigger. You NEVER got to see Naruto with more then 3 tails and not having second mode... You can't compare Bee to Naruto here. He is not activating anything just poping 1 more tails.... Its just that Kyuubi's chakra is THAT powerfull and has that much chakra.
    So Naruto does not have 4 tails with the initial clock, it can't be done as Kyuubi's chakra is just to powerfull and just to much. 3 tails can be perfecly well compared to the 4'th tail. Its just 1 tail in between. The fact that he is the so called lvl 2 is irrelevant. For Bee he needed to do something like a special ability to get lvl2. It was a special thing for him but its not for Naruto. He casualy get's there when getting the 4 tails.

    JMan had a key to play around on the seal. But it was not state he fixed the seal after that. JMan and Naruto cearly had a fight. You seriously think Kyuubi just sit there in 4 tails and alowed JMan to play around with he seal to fix it? No way... JMan first needed to find a way to stop the Kyuubi's movements for the time he needed.
    Also no, closing or oppening the seal does not heals Naruto's wounds by magic... This is absurd. What the hell does the seal having to do with Naruto recovering trough magic from his injuries? Makes no sense sry.
    Also if you are telling me a pieace of paper can pierce that shield in 1 tails or whatever you are going to get ignored. That must have had some special ability to go trough the shield as it can even suppress the chakra after...

    The ET don't have control over there limbs Naruto DOES as long as he knows what is happening. You can't compare consciousness from Oro, ET zombies and so on with Naruto who CAN move his limbs and it all depends on what is he able to understand. Those examples you used are people who have no ability to move the body they are in no matter what consciousness they have.... Naruto is completly diferent.

    As for Minato and the seal... Nop... Kyuubi did not oppen any seals. The situation was that bad that a LOT of chakra was going outside Naruto's seal and that was the representation on his belly. The Kyuubi keept asking Naruto to oppen the seal... He was not controled... He was desperate enough to do it... He did not know what to do. Minato and Naruto had a LONG chat before the seal was fixed.
    Naruto was just desperate enough to remove the seal. Minato only repaired the seal in the sense that he closed the chakra spilling trough so Naruto can get back to his real self. If Naruto did not remove the seal the Kyuubi would eventualy stop.
    Now it was bloody evident no control was on Naruto considering the long chat with Minato before anything was done with the seal...
    Oh end Naruto does not go tails not because he can go back to normal but because he ends up hurting the people he loves in doing so. Think of Sakura and what he stated after.

    As for the training. He was using his kyuuubi chakra. He only had 2x Kakashi chakra:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/315/11
    Then notice about 100x and the kyuubi stuff.
    Yamato was there to help him control the Kyuubi chakra he was using and not go nuts:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/315/12
    Seriously why would Yamato even be there if not for that? You actualy think Kakashi can create half the number of clones Naruto can? No way... Also don't give me that part 1 on the bridge with Kakashii's version...

    Now about Orochimaru. I serously have no bloody idea what Waterboy was refering to but that guy states that Oro could not use his limbs and CEARLY he used them vs Naruto in that fight a LOT. Perhaps it was just a side effect of him getting close to neededing to change ship or that guy was just wrong. Seriously he was making handseals, summoning snakes and everything how exacly was Oro not able to use his hands? Please explain it to me?!?!?
    As for him using senjutsu chakra you have no bloody idea how he was doing it. You actualy think he can get Naruto energy like Naruto by blinking? Naruto at firt needed a long time of standing still to do it. Perhaps he is doing a Juugo but you just don't know and you can't use that here considering you know nothing about Oro's senjutsu abilities.

    As for him joking and laughting... HE WAS TAUNTING NARUTO ffs... He wanted Naruto to get even more angry to trow more tails ffs... He was amused by the Kyuubi power:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/292/5
    Taunting him:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/292/17

    Look at this, he is not laughting or anything, he was dead serious analizing Naruto:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/293/7

    He was amuzed after noticing Naruto blasting the entire forest by just transforming:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/293/15
    It was about Naruto's power that amuzed him. He liked testing his power vs the Kyuubi.

    Does this look to you like playing around?:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/294/3

    Even at this point and he was enjoing himself even admiting this is a problem:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/294/17
    Again death:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/295/2

    Laughting even aver tstating he could die:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/295/5

    Also this must be Oro playing around to:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/295/13

    At this point he just about noticed he had crep to hurt him:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/296/3

    Now you tell me how much did he enjoy, taunted and made fun o Sarutobi when he summoned the 2 hokages?

    Hell he even laughts here...
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/296/9

    That is Oro's caracter. Also war was about things in motion.

    Also no, he had a host body but transformed himself into the snakes and started to take over Sasuke's body. Curently Orochimaru has a new body as he made one as he got some flesh and whatever magic added to whatever to create his body. You don't actualy belive Orochimaur is walking chakra right (in the manga curently)?

    For you of course it will always be Sasuke did good in whatever even if vs Kirabi he was in a 4 man team, got killed some 3 times... Actualy i don't even give a damn for your arguments as they fail big time. Bee OWNED him left and right. You don't have ANY arguments in a 4vs1 fight... You don't have any arguments when in a sword fight he got owned by Bee... Who cares he was suprised Bee had raiton to, ITS IRRELEVANT. Who cares Sasuke belived Bee down when he used that genjutsu? His own bloody fault for turning his back to an enemy he knew nothing about his abilities... Am i next to find excuses for Naruto's stupidity like this? IRRELEVANT. Good think for his team that saved him over and over even vs the Biju blast no? Again Sasuke did VERY BAD.

    I also love how you are ignoring WHY Sasuke evoided the 3 tails move, it was a linear attack and his sharingan was perfect for that... Genjutsu? WOW so hard to look at the guy... No feat of anything. His genjutsu feat vs Deidara is way more impresive.

    Now considering Sasuke completly failed from all points vs Bee even in a 4vs1 i find your arguments completly failing here. He used a MS genjutsu on Bee, he does not have it here, he used Amaterasu to stop Bee (and it did not stop Bee, he could get out of the water and kill them all) and he does not have it here. The only type of attack he dodged vs Bee is not something that Naruto usses so who gives a damn?

    Also his range is medium, Deidara is long range. Sasuke is medium range. The links you showed are medium range. In the Deidara one he even jumps on the sword then using the other wing for the boost, he was up in the air.
    Look here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/358/10
    That is just outside his attack range.

    Sasuke states Deidara is a long range fighter:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/358/6
    HE IS NOT.
    5m is his great long range:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/358/5

    Sry but he is a medium ranged fighter.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke could dodge Naruto rushing in and swiping at him. Sasuke has no issue with dodging Naruto himself. Sasuke's problem is the chakra branching away in a different direction, which won't be an issue in a blitz or direct attack. And the scan you posted outright shows the four claws digging into Orochimaru's face.
    Those are Naruto's fingers dude. Also 1 tails mode dude.
    Why would it not be an issue in a blitz or direct attack considering it can move faster then orochimaru by a good deal? It was able to chase him down after the guy had some 20-30m of distance.
    Sasuke charges, Naruto summons some 5 chakra arms in front of him and 1 would defenetly hit Sasuke... Of course a scream and then using arms to grab him would make it a sure thing... Sasuke going in close mean death.
    Quote Quote:
    Heck, Kirabi hit Sasuke directly in the chest while in his three tail cloak and the area of damage wasn't greater then the area where he hit or all that deep, and Kirabi's physically stronger then Ee even without the cloak. The damage on Sasuke wasn't even below his ribs, which would be right underneath the skin. Look at what happen back in Part One. Cloaked Naruto was making craters and ripping through stone, yet the damage done to Sasuke himself was minor.
    Who cares what Bee could do when i have Naruto ripping Oro in half and ripping his arms? Aparently Naruto is way stronger as Oro's durability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sasuke at that point.
    Now i don't care what Naruto was doing to Sasuke in part 1. In part 2 he was able to do something else to Oro.

    Oro had no need to improve Sasuke's durability by adding whatever crep as when he transfers there he transfers with his own durability.
    Also its not a fail comparison. Orochimaru himself is not HUMAN anymore like Sasuke. Seriously... Orochimaru is a monster even by Kabuto's words.
    Now Batman can take crep because of plot no jutsu and absurd excusses... Like rolling with Superman level punches lol. You explain to me how a human no matter how much MA training they have can jump some 6m in the area or more... Not sure even if Batman can be considered human....
    But hell who cares Sasuke obviously has better durability then civilians just like Bats has better durability then civilians.
    Seriously there is no indication Sasuke improved his durability from part 1... Not that it matter something that can rip Oro's limbs off in a single attack are going to murder him... Also you have nothing to put him above Kabuto in durability. Taking some swords and what not means nothing especialy considering how he was left after and what other people have showed with similar injuries.
    Hell even a missing hearth and arm from an old man.

    Choucies. Shooting at Itachi? HE DID:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/390/10
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/390/11
    I could addres them all but who cares. Already to long of a post. Obviously using some jutsus on Itachi would not work.. He needed to do that.
    Using all he had can be stated here ... Seriously you whant him to use 3 variations of a jutsu for a case to asume it used everything he had? Let's use Naruto FRS to hit a guy but then stating he did not use all he had because he did not use a casual rasengan? Same here Sasuke used the most powerfull things he could and the best things he could for a givent instance and so you can state he used everything he had as he used the best ability for a given action.

    The sound 4 themselfs only used CS when they needed to show Sasuke THE POWA and then when they foud have died if not for it.

    Now JMan did not know he was going to end up fighting the rinnegan and Nagato... He was undercover and not going to fight. Then Konan noticed him... Then when he noticed Pein power he was forced to use that.

    Bottom line is this. Sasuke showed to use his CS very sparingly in a fight for whatever reason and now you whant to ignore the way this is used in the manga and make him use it constantly??!?! Yes i got no idea why he is doing it but going from the way he showed that ability to be used in THE MANGA to using it diferently here makes no sense. Also its not like its 1 fight to claim plot no jutsu... Its everywere...

    Also yes Sasuke was a punching bag to Naruto. Bloking a long range charge by lifting your arm and then getting completly owned even underwater its that bub. Sasuke did NOTHING aside from getting his but handed to him.

    Kisame moving faster underwater when Bee was moving that giant summon and his friend is not impresive... Even when not Kisame is that fish thing... Naruto IS NOT a fish or anything that would help him move faster underwater then on land. HUGE diference. If Naruto is doing that to Sasuke underwater he is doing it on land... The speed would be the same as not 1 of them have anything to improve there speed in water.

    Also Naruto dodging Raikage is a feat of pure speed. Sasuke dodging Raikage is not exacly that... its a feat of knowing the future + some speed to actualy do it. Vs Bee he AGAIN did that because of his sharingan. He is not fast as Raikage or Minato. He can compensate with his sharingan o achive the ability to fight this people but if let's say they need to run from point a to b then he would be behind.

    Itac was half blind yes, even when they fight started he could not see clearly and after his MS usage (before Susano) he could only see some shapes. Itachi WAS almost dead. He died minutes later at the end of the fight and it was because he only had that much to live.

    As for genjutsu JMan himself states about more powerfull chakra. Now those 2 not only had (TOGEDER) enough chakra to compare to what Naruto tried but they where doing it from the outside and that apears to be more easy then you busting yourself out as you are not trapped inside a genjutsu having your chakra control messed up.

    Now Sasuke does not have Tsukuyomi... He has some type of genjutsu he is using with MS but it has no name. But i did not say you can't compare casual genjutsu with Sasuke's... I said you can' compare the genjutsu Naruto had to bust out (from Itachi's) to what Sakura could but out.

    Now again, its his inner world you DON'T KNOW what it did to Oro in real life to his body. Could he move? You don;t know.

    Now Bee's ability to help Naruto and act in his head was very limited... Just after he stopped that blast:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/497/5
    Think about it he just grabed the Kyuubi once, lost some tentacles and then stopped the blast... That is IT. Compare that to his normal abilities.. Come on man.
    Naruto would give Sasuke the boot. Also Sasuke stoped the chakra that was out and it was NOT enveloping Naruto. You don't know what he can do when its more than that and at least you can't prove it so its irrelevant... Look at Yamato if its only a little he can stop it... More and he needs the amulet to do it. Just because a buletproof vest can stop a bulet it does not mean it can stop a cannon.

    Yamato was tring to control the chakra so Kyuubi can't go nuts... It has nothing to do with making that chakra be any less evil, or any less damaging to Naruto if it pops out... He was just tring to keep it contained. Also it did not rampage against the other clones... IT MOVED.

    Also the sand is slow. Sasuke in part 1 made it look like a JOKE and then Naruto with some kyuubi chakra made Sasuke with 2 tomoe look like a joke.... Seriously its slow compared to stuff like this.

    Tsunade hit Madara and i provided you with it. NOT OBJECT. MADARA. Then Susano. I seriously don't care it was a clone. Wood element clones are repicas of the original down to the last CELL. Again irrelevant... This are not shadow clones.
    Now more then this it was stated 1 hit from Tsunade can kill you. You keep tring to put down anything non Uchiha and i seriously don't see why. It made a HOLE in Maddara... Huge one to. Now stop comparing her to Raikage and Bee as it is irrelevant. To get to Tsunade's power Raikage needed Tsuck on his shoulders... 2 kages to get to what Tsunade did by herself on the other end.
    Last edited by xXan; July 21, 2012 at 05:16 AM.

  5. #50
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Orochimaru and Sasuke vs. Jiraiya and Naruto

    The Kyuubi was attacking Naruto, not itself. The Kyuubi doesn't need Naruto's physical body to live or be reborn, as we have been shown. All that is required is a good amount of chakra like a tail's worth, from which it could recreate it's whole body or simply wait until it naturally manifest back into the world.

    It's obvious it was attacking the others, else all those clones wouldn't be popping out of existences. Why exactly would they be destroyed just because the cloaked clone was moving, when it takes a considerable force and they were shown running away upon manifestation? Naruto being aware of what's going on and being said thus allowing his anger to grow doesn't change he's not the one in control. Again, consciousness does not mean control. If Naruto had the control you believed, then why would Jiraiya warn Naruto not to use the cloak form? Why would he warn Kakashi to stop Naruto from manifesting a second tail? Why would Naruto's clones panic and flee from another one manifesting three tails? Why is it that all the times he manifested a cloak, it was never on purpose or by choice? How does any of this point to Naruto having any control? The Key Toad outright states that Jiraiya's attempts to train Naruto to control the Kyuubi chakra failed and Naruto made it clear he has no real control. All him targeting Orochimaru showed was that Orochimaru was a greater threat to Naruto losing himself completely, which was beneficial to the Kyuubi. And the example of Edo summon and Orochimaru do work because we're talking about Naruto retaining consciousness, which is exactly what Jiriya stated. Jiraiya said nothing about control, he said consciousness.

    The difference can't be that great, as we have seen. And knocking someone back is not incapacitating them.

    No, I believe Deva Path is plenty fast. He kept up with Kakashi so he has speed. So by all accounts, Deva Path is as fast as Kakashi and Sasuke. And Sasuke wouldn't merely be running away, but also dodging and avoiding attacks while throwing out his own. Um, there was nothing indicating that Orochimaru couldn't avoid them nor did he have to stop them. The point is still that trying to stop oneself from falling would require reaching as fast as you can.

    Um, no. The secondary versions are just the regular chakra densely packed. How could Naruto be using more chakra then the tails represents? Kirabi made it clear that the secondary cloak was the opposite of the initial cloak, that instead of transforming outward into the full Bijuu, the Bijuus themselves instead compacted the chakra into a humanoid shape. Naruto gives himself over to the Kyuubi and Kirabi let's the Hachibi take charge.

    We were told that Jiraiya had purposely opened the seal in order to train Naruto. So presumably, Jiraiya would have been prepared in case things didn't go his way ahead of time. And you're questioning a series where we chakra healing people as absurd? The whole point of the seal was to protect Naruto and Minato had specifically set things up for that exact situation, in the likelihood that Naruto came close to being devoured. Explain why it "has to have had some special ability"? At no point anywhere in the series was the initial cloak implied to be impenetrable.

    It seems pretty clear it was the Kyuubi who caused Naruto's stomach to do that. Naruto didn't even touch his stomach and while it's possible that he could have done it without touching, he's been shown needing to touch it to manipulate it. And Naruto's eyes are whited out, as if he's being controlled. When Minato touched him, Naruto was shown snapping back. Um, Naruto was shown capable of creating a thousand clones with just his own chakra. He has actually done that a few times.

    Orochimaru actually never made any handseals. He doesn't need handseals to summon snakes, as he has the tattoos for that. Same with switching bodies. The only questionable thing was the gates, but that could easily work like with the snakes. Point remains that we're told that Orochimaru was unable to use his arms to use ninjutsu. And we know how Senjutsu works. The fact remains that Orochimaru has access to that much to boost his own chakra and that's all that's being claimed. You haven't disproved anything I said. I pointed out several other examples showing when Orochimaru got serious and he was doing none of that against Naruto. And motion would apply to more then merely war.

    He didn't transform. Sasuke confirmed that that was Orochimaru's true form, the result of all his experiments. And why couldn't he be merely chakra, when it's been long established in the series that chakra can take a physical, living form? His Yamata mode was a manifestation that had blood and everything.

    It has nothing to do with just Sasuke. Kirabi is a guy who was shown just as fast as his brother and cloaked Naruto, physically stronger then Ee, fast enough to intercept Minato with a tentacle, and skilled enough to take on an elite ninja like Kisame while holding back. The fact that Sasuke could react somewhat to his speed despite still being injured and preform well enough to even get Kirabi to praise him while not instantly being murdered is pretty much what one would call doing good. Did Sasuke make mistakes? Yes. Could he have fought better? Probably. Doesn't change that he did pretty good considering who he was facing. "Completely failing" would have been instantly being taken down, which didn't happen.

    Where did I ignore why Sasuke dodged Kirabi? It's not as if Naruto has been shown fighting in a non-linear way. Every attack Naruto used against Orochimaru was a straight forward attack. And the point of mentioning the genjutsu was to point out that Sasuke could do likewise here but instead employ a ninjutsu instead of genjutsu. I thought I made that clear. Like I said before, while Sasuke doesn't have an unlimited range like Deidara, he can still reach quite far.

    Pretty clearly claws. And it's not an issue because we outright know that Sasuke is capable of dodging it. Despite your attitude towards it, even you have acknowledged that a straight attack at Sasuke would be dodgable. And Naruto hasn't shown the ability to use more then two arms.

    A character doesn't go from doing nothing in damage to lethal damage, especially when they were shown ripping through stone. Um, Orochimaru doesn't transfer anything. It was made clear that while they have his appearance skinwise, they are still the bodies of the previous hosts, thus the whole reason Orochimaru had trouble with the body rejecting him. So while Orochimaru himself isn't human, he's using an human body. The fact that he had been training for three years and took several explosions directly show that he has considerable durability. If a large explosive shockwave doesn't take him out, a limited one isn't gonna either. Heck, if a bunch of regular ninjas can take on the likes of the Edo Jinchuurikis, no reason Sasuke and Orochimaru can't do likewise. Darui had no issue dodging any of Kinkaku's attacks.

    No, he didn't. He wasn't aiming at Itachi, he was aiming at the sky to prepare Kirin. And all the things I mentioned would have likely work til Itachi pulled out Susanoo. Except it doesn't work like that. Sasuke's arsenal isn't merely about raw power, but tactics too, and I mentioned those tactics that would have helped him succeed.

    The Sound Five used their Cursed Seals repeatedly over a couple of hours/single night. Jiraiya did know he was gonna be fighting. He went in specifically to fight, which is why he sent the Key Toad away in case he failed. The bottom line is that there is nothing limiting his usage of Cursed Seal however he wants. If Naruto is allowed to activate his cloaked form despite the series making it clear he would never do that and Jiraiya would never allow him to do so, then Sasuke can use his Cursed Seal in a different way too.

    That's not a punching bag in the way you want it to be when it's shown he could react but was overpowered. And Kisame was moving fast even when Kirabi was alone. It wouldn't be the same on land, because one, Sasuke wouldn't have been confused and two, he would at least have a set area to defend instead of a 360 dimension.

    Except Ee, Minato, and Naruto were all noted to have enhanced reflexes, so if you call Sasuke out for it, then you would call them out for it. And while I have never said otherwise for Ee moving at max speed, Minato is a whole different story. How is Minato fast when his speed is mainly due to Hiraishin? Tobi had no trouble keeping up and Sasuke's faster then him. Cloudy vision was not half blind. And we were told that Itachi died because he pushed himself. Had he not fought Sasuke, he wouldn't have died.

    That pretty much goes against all that we've been told and seen via genjutsu release. The very idea that they had more chakra then Naruto makes little sense. There would be no point in comparing a standard genjutsu to Tsukuyomi, so the implication is that Sasuke has it. And why can't we compare the two? Sakura broke out of a high rank genjutsu that took down not only regular people, but other ninjas.

    We know what happens to a paralyzed person in real life. Um, how exactly is stopping a Bijuu Blast from the Kyuubi weak? Considering what we know about the Kyuubi's blast... The difference in their skills would make it considerably hard for Naruto to "boot" Sasuke out, even if he was weaken. And Sasuke was able to do that to the Kyuubi due to the natural ability of the Sharingan, which would not be limited by the amount of chakra around.

    Yamato was also suppressing the Kyuubi's will as Naruto mentions when speaking to the Elder Toad.

    Um, Sasuke in Part One was as fast as unweighted Lee, and cloaked Naruto wasn't faster then Sasuke, merely more powerful. Tsunade hit a clone and I established how using that is faulty. Wood clones are made of wood, as we saw from Yamato's usage. I never denied that a hit from Tsunade couldn't kill, what I argued was that the hit wouldn't do the sort of damage you're trying to argue. The hits from Ee and Kirabi were hardly destructive, but that doesn't change that they would have killed the majority of people. And I can compare them because their similar. Ee's not as strong but has shown similar damage, and Kirabi would be as strong given he was shown stronger then Ee in just base form.
    Last edited by Rikudou King; July 22, 2012 at 12:14 AM.

  6. #51
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Orochimaru and Sasuke vs. Jiraiya and Naruto

    @Rikudou King


    First off this is my last post on this. The damn thing is getting to long going on 40 minutes or so to make a damn reply.

    The fact that the Kyuubi can revive itself is irrelevant whent it showed multiple times in the manga to protect Naruto. At voe and when Sasuke entered Naruto's mind are the prime examples. You have no idea what a revive for Kyuubi would mean and where and in what condition his soul or whatever would be in the time he is "away" from the real world. Bottom line is Kyuubi helped him. He does not whant Naruto dead.

    Now the clones where not showed to really go poof before the big wood element from Yamato popped down. Before that you can just see 3 tails moving. Again attacking itself would make 0 sense. Naruto going ferral and attacking himself, 0 sense.
    But this is just about irrelevant as we have JMan clearly stating he is, when we have him SPEAKING in that form, when we have him knowing who Oro is and what Sasuke is and understand Oro's taunts in that mode.... and so on. You can be my gues and ignore what is showed in the manga.

    Also train Naruto in using the Kyuubi charka was done only when he got RM, it was a completly diferent thing. Going from what he has in 3 tails to that... Its a huge leap.
    Also what Naruto was refering in that link you provided is after the 4 tails.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/293/4

    Quote Quote:
    The difference can't be that great, as we have seen. And knocking someone back is not incapacitating them.
    It is when you need healing to start moving again... Also the diference is HUGE. Going from Sasuke taking no damage to Kabuto going down and needed healing to start moving again...
    Yep no great diference from taking no damage to incapacitated and needed healing.
    So You have no diference from nothing happening to not be able to fight anymore. The diference is in 1 case Sasuke is out of the fight and the other nothing happends.

    Now running away and so Deva avoiding damage and Sasuke going close to fight and not getting hit because he can run as fast can't be compared. In 1 case you run away from the target and stay outside the area where you can be attacked and in the other you would be close enough to get hit.
    Reaching as fast as you can would mean for Naruto to brake the entire area. The stupid little branch would be anihilated. With a swing he blasted a huge area and made Oro lose a limb.

    Again second stage is just more chakra compresed there. Naruto get's to it in 4 tails as he has that much chakra. Naruto in 4 tails is above Bee in 8 tails and normal form. Seriously the Kyuubi equals 5 other biju's and can trow the attack faster then they can.... Kyuubi is in a completly diferent league then the rest... Even the 8 tails can't compare to it.
    Naruto in 3 tails is close to second stage as he has a lot of chakra/tails poping out.
    You are comparing a weaker biju to a stronger one and the gab is big enough... Seriously the Kyuubi would take a big dump on the 8 tails.

    JMan did not anticipate it would go that bad or he would not even have tried it.. Not only that holding Naruto still so you can play with his seal is imposible unless you incapacitate it first somehow. If JMan had 1 of those sealing papers and those do work on Naruto in 4 tails he would not even get any damage from it but OBVIOUSLY they don't work and that is why they need Yamato.

    Now as for the seal and Minato its getting into nonsense. That was a basic SEAL. Kushina nor Minato know and healing techs, they where not that. Chakra needs to be made to heal trough whatever magic they use. You think seals can heal or Minato? Go right ahead and provide evidence of it... Seriously is more then absurd lol.

    Quote Quote:
    At no point anywhere in the series was the initial cloak implied to be impenetrable.
    Same for the second stage but that is not realy relevant considering just about Kirin would do enough damage to put Naruto down.. CS lvl 2 + Raikiri is going to probably pierce him somewhat but he can regen that and if Sasuke goes in close... Death for him... As we all know how Chidori works and how no sharingan = 1 dead idiot... Now considering he can't predict the chakra = 1 dead idiot if he charges in like that... Not only this a charka scream would send him flying back and cancel the Chidori on his arm... Now Sasuke has limited usses of those things so bummer to be hin.

    Also of course the Kyuubi did that to Naruto's belly as the chakra was floading him because of Naruto's state of mind. Still irrelevant if he does not remove the seal.
    Also if you belive Naruto was mind controled you missed the entire point of those events:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/439/8
    Naruto lost hope, he was in pain, HE WAS LOST. There was no mind control. Kyuubi never in this entire manga showed any ability to control minds...
    Also this happends AGAIN because his state of minat AND NOT Kyuubi forcing it:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/439/10
    Kyuubi is giving him a way out (as stupid as that way out is) and he losses faith and his will. He gives up in essence... That is what the folowing pages show to the point Minato gives it right back to him. Same thing that happen with Kushina later.

    About Orochimaru.
    Yeah you where right no hand signs where showed but that guy showed he could not use his arms. Not that he could not do handseals... I am sure Kishi just made this up right now se he can have a reason to power up Orochimaru stating that before he had no HANDS...
    Still the things on his hands replicated the need for seals to do jutsus...
    Now senjutsu chakra does not pop out of the air. You need to meditate and get it... Feel free to show me how Oro is doing that... Yeah him standing still and grabing some would defenetly work.. Now if you whant to place him on Naruto/Kabuto's level you need evidence.
    Also i did not state it only applies to just war. I state war then you stated the other thing then i stated war falls in that category.

    Now the chakra thing. Yes chakra can take physical form and has many times. When Oro spits himself out, when wood clones are created and so on. The thing is the user always has a host body when doing that. Oro still had that body. He was just in snake mode. When he popped out of Sasuke he was still linked to Sasuke and only whent away when the seal on Sasuke's neck whent away after the seal. He was using Sasuke's body as a medium. Never in this entire manga has one clearly showed to exist as just chakra with no physical body to tie it down to this reality.

    Now about Sasuke and speed things.
    Bee was not direcly showed to keep up with Raikage and Naruto. He jumped in when those guys where bussy with 1 another. And growing a tentacles is not his speed. He can just transform that fast. Also let's not forget Bee was doing that vs casual speed not full powered one. Even suigetsu was able to get in and save Sasuke before Raikage could swing down.
    As for Sasuke... Yea he failed completly. What was his goal? Capture Bee... Did he do that? NOP. That is COMPLETLY FAILLING at what you set out to do.
    Now Sasuke having some injuries... Big deal... Again 4 man team. Him not a complete fodder "considering who he was fithing" (what does it even matter?) is not doing good... He is doing bad. What if you use a fodder guy and he can last the hole 3 seconds vs Bee that guy would be doing good to? Again doing good would be a 1vs1 where Sasuke provides a chalange and does not die to Bee in the first 10 seconds of that fight and needed others to save his but. Remove his team and he is FODDER as he dies in some 10 seconds.

    Bee used a type of special charge. Naruto does not just champs and tries to get you like a bull. He goes in with diferent attacks, chakra hands and what not. Bee was charging like a bull.
    Again 5m ARE NOT FAR ffs... That is 5 bloody METERS. His Katon can go more then that but what he did vs Deidara was not long range. Katon would probably be to slow to hit shit and that is why he did not use vs Deidara.

    Bub those where 2 arms in ground poping up and then more coming out from that. Still no need for more...

    Oro is NOT HUMAN. Does not matter what the host body IS. No human can take a Tsunade punch to the head, No human has snakes inside his bloody belly and just about no blood when he cut ripped in half or even when he was missing his hand. Oro is NOT human by any definition aside from human like features, eyes, hair bla bla. He as human as Superman is. Or as a mutant is in X-Men.

    Now you again comparing crep jins to Naruto when he sits on or above 5 other bijus combinig there power...

    Itachi was just above HIM, HE SHOOT at Itachi'd direction, he is SHOWED moving out of the way. It was not meant to hit him but that is completly diferent thing. They where shoot his way. This is identical to Naruto arm going Oro's way but aiming at the tree.

    Now about the CS... Going to limit stating Sasuke showed fight here bound to the rules he showed in the manga.

    Sasuke reacting by lifting his arm and then getting punched over and over before he can block 1 of them when he was actualy in close melee... Yeah he could lift his arm before Naruto could close the distance. WOW! Punching bag Sasuke.

    Minato had hus human reflexes. They where something incredible but he did not improved them with anything... Now don't get me wrong i am not tring to state Sasuke is BAD because he is using a sharingan to keep up... I was refering to SPEED. I was refering to HOW he is doing it. The others are faster then him but he can predict the future so he does not need to be fast like them (well not Sure about Minato and how big the gap is...). Again if you put him in a race or some test of how fast he can move his limbs he would fall short but he can compete in that area as he knows the future and can take the actions he needs.
    Also Sasuke faster then Tobi? I don't agree at all. Also i did not state Sasuke can't keep up with Minato in a fight. I state Minato can run faster then Sasuke... Can move his limbs faster then Sasuke. Sasuke would just get the same results by knowing the future.
    Again i was going about on HOW Sasuke achives said feats and how it would apply here when his sharingan is not going to work vs that chakra attacking itself as it is going to hard counter his sharingan expecialy if he charges in to deliver a Chidori.

    Also this IS half blind:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/389/8
    If that is not half blind i wonder what you would call good vision. Imagine tring to use the sharingan prediction trick like that... Horible, just horible.
    He had to close his eye to get a better picture, aka using 1 eye and that was not working well to:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/389/9
    Hell he got HIT because of it.
    Then here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/391/16
    Well good thing he has Susano...

    Also yes Itachi was close to death. Perhaps he would have lived a little longer if not for the fight but not much more. We know he was popping pills like candy. Yes that fight exhausted him but that is just about what it did. Even at a rest and he would not have long to live. He had that fight in a horible condition from all aspects and planed it down to the last details on how to save Sasuke... All the feats Sasuke has there are MORE then questionable.

    Now you aparently did not comprehend. I did not state more chakra then Naruto. They applied more chakra then Naruto and in a better way. Naruto has:
    a-Bad chakra control.
    b-Inside a genjutsu and his chakra control is even MORE messed up because of it.

    As for Sakura busting out of Itachi's genjutsu by herself... Seriously don't make my laugh. Comparing Itachi to some fodder when using genjutsu is ridicolus.

    Now Sasuke really does not have Tsukuyomi. He never, ever showed it. Tsukuyomi is what Itachi has, is his own specific MS genjutsu. Sasuke has a regual genjutsu powered with MS and is hell weak compared to Itachi's.

    We know what happends to a paralyzed human in real life.. That was not what i was refering to. Sasuke was able to trap Orochimaru in his genjutsu world BUT you have no idea what that did to his own body in the outside world and if he could move or not. Sasuke himself was stoped by the poison. Hell even in the genjutsu world Oro does not look really woried and state how the eyes are finaly his. I am sure he got some precautions after Itachi did that. He even started moving forword from the palce he was impaled in(not much was showed but yeah).

    Now i did not state stoping a biju blast is weak but his overall performance there COMPARED to what he can do. Seriously Bee should not drop out after that...
    Sasuke would get the boot from Naruto in his own head. Also no evidence that Sasuke can stop more chakra then he showed. You can't asume he can't. IF Naruto get's in 3 tails Sasuke can't stop shit... He first need to show able to do... Just because Naruto can tank Raikage's punches in his RM does not mean he can tank Perfect Susano punches from Madara.

    Quote Quote:
    Yamato was also suppressing the Kyuubi's will as Naruto mentions when speaking to the Elder Toad.
    And? your point is? He never showed the ability to cancel the damaging effects of the Kyuubi chakra and that is the point.

    Quote Quote:
    Um, Sasuke in Part One was as fast as unweighted Lee, and cloaked Naruto wasn't faster then Sasuke, merely more powerful.
    Yes that is why Statue was a STATUE when Naruto got to him in melee combat right?
    The distance of the jump charge:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/229/3
    Then when locked in melee:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/229/6
    Its like you telling me you can lift your hand to lock my fist when i am half a meter from you because you could life your hand when you could see me coming from 5-6m away.. Yeah right...
    Naruto's speed:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/230/6

    He is WELL above Sasuke not just above. Sasuke still had a 2 tomoe sharingan to compensate for his crep speed.... Imagine removing that to...

    Quote Quote:
    Tsunade hit a clone and I established how using that is faulty. Wood clones are made of wood, as we saw from Yamato's usage.
    The clone turns into flesh and whatever material you costum is made out of. Even iron and other crep. It REPLICATES the user down to the last cell. it has a brain, eyes and so on.
    You and its wood.. Right.

    Quote Quote:
    I never denied that a hit from Tsunade couldn't kill, what I argued was that the hit wouldn't do the sort of damage you're trying to argue. The hits from Ee and Kirabi were hardly destructive, but that doesn't change that they would have killed the majority of people. And I can compare them because their similar. Ee's not as strong but has shown similar damage, and Kirabi would be as strong given he was shown stronger then Ee in just base form.
    Tsunade in feats is above in destructive power that those guys showed but keep tring.
    But actualy don't as i am forced to stop at this post. I needed 1h to make it. To big of a time investment.

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    Re: Orochimaru and Sasuke vs. Jiraiya and Naruto

    Spoiler: xXan;2962039 show


    Now on another note. Given that both Sasuke and Orochimaru are fully aware of Naruto's Jinchuuriki ability, they can both aim to take him out before he could transform. They have the edge over him in speed, meaning either shunshin'ing up to him or shooting out a blade would take him out of the game before he could defend. Neither Naruto or Jiraiya would be in a position to prevent them from targeting him, especially since they can't even look towards Sasuke without risking being caught in a genjutsu.

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