Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (7/21/14 - 7/27/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: One Piece 753 by cnet128 , Bleach 589 (2) , Gintama 503 by Bomber D Rufi
New Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 25

Thread: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

  1. #1
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    1
    Post Thanks / Like

    Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    Okay, the title is a bit misleading. This is more like an observation. I'm not really Kisuke, so I can't work out the technical stuff on how it works. I do have a fair idea, however. For some of you, this might be obvious. If so, read it anyway. =).
    Spoiler show

  2. Like 2 Member(s) likes this post
  3. #2
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,344
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    I don't think shinigami actually split from their zampakuto at any point. Obtaining shikai and bankai involved 2 different yet similar processes in principle. For shikai you have to go to your inner world where the zampakuto spirit inhabits and learn his name. For bankai the process is the opposite, rather than entering the inner world you call out to it to the real world. I don't think this would necessarily entail an actual split. Another thing, the doll simply accelerates the bankai training as it materializes the bankai however it has never actually been said or implied using the doll has any actual effect on the user or the resulting bankai.

    If we consider ichigo's case then it seems even more likely there is no splitting going on. Remember when he trained for saigo no getsuga tensho? At that time he went into his inner world and zangetsu was there albeit with another form. Your theory would imply zangetsu shouldn't have to be in the inner world for bankai to work right?

  4. #3
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner hades99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Country
    Greece
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    What about Mayruri? Hopefully he will(has?) figure it out for us, plus they prob couldn't steal Mayuri's as he will highly sabotage it (= Mayuri vs Szayel)

  5. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  6. #4
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Country
    North Pole
    Posts
    669
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    Yeah, sounds like that's about it. I guess Quincy don't take the sword itself, but the spirit of the sword.

    (Also, I think Kenpachi does have an actual "zanpakuto" but he doesn't know its name or any of its abilities.)

    And yeah, I'm waiting for some hapless Quincy to "steal" Mayuri's Bankai, hahaha.

  7. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  8. #5
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Tame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Liverpool
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    684
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrs View Post
    Yeah, sounds like that's about it. I guess Quincy don't take the sword itself, but the spirit of the sword.

    (Also, I think Kenpachi does have an actual "zanpakuto" but he doesn't know its name or any of its abilities.)

    And yeah, I'm waiting for some hapless Quincy to "steal" Mayuri's Bankai, hahaha.
    They must only take the spirit because Byakuya's still holding his sword.

    Also, why has no one thought to use Kido yet? Especially Byakuya, who has shown to be awesome at Kido and has been apparently beaten without casting a single spell?

  9. #6
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    I had a smaller one but i guess i left it at home
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,764
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    Quote Originally Posted by Tame View Post
    They must only take the spirit because Byakuya's still holding his sword.

    Also, why has no one thought to use Kido yet? Especially Byakuya, who has shown to be awesome at Kido and has been apparently beaten without casting a single spell?
    Kubo seems adamant on showing how worthless SS is in front of the Quincys. I think he might build a come back of some sort. Have SS completely taken over and then the Shinigami come to liberate it.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

  10. #7
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Tame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Liverpool
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    684
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Kubo seems adamant on showing how worthless SS is in front of the Quincys. I think he might build a come back of some sort. Have SS completely taken over and then the Shinigami come to liberate it.
    At the moment all he's doing is showing how stupid or forgetful they all are.

  11. #8
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,344
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    Quote Originally Posted by Tame View Post
    They must only take the spirit because Byakuya's still holding his sword.

    Also, why has no one thought to use Kido yet? Especially Byakuya, who has shown to be awesome at Kido and has been apparently beaten without casting a single spell?
    Kido? Why would that even be useful here? The situation the captains are facing is one where the quincy are going all out against captains who simply cannot use the vast majority of their power. Kido is useful and can be pretty powerful but the sheer amount of people who can use high level kido is at most insignificant. Remember when aizen escaped SS all those chapters back? He took out komamura with a kido but there is the consideration that even then aizen admitted the kido did not reach even a third of its intended power. Aizen did take out komamura with it but there is the consideration that aizen is without a shred of a doubt altogether above what could be considered captain level. Byakuya is not above captain level. He is without a doubt strong but he is not at the level of aizen. Even if byakuya could actually use level 90th kido without an incantation (which would be the necessary minimum for it to be worth anything in terms of power and speed) it would be unlikely that he can use it at at least a fraction of his intended power. Without that byakuya would be left with lower level kido to go up against volgstandig and his own bankai which at best seems massively impractical to say the least. Would it make a shred of sense for byakuya to even somewhat scratch a stern rittern with kido at this point? Such a thing would be completely devoid of sense even in the most optimistic scenarios. Hell, remember kirge? The guy was actually able to block ichigo's bankai with blutz alone. Nodt seems stronger than kirge and seems to be a rather avid user of blutz. His bluts was even enough to actually block byakuya's sword, something which even arrancar hierro failed miserably at before. The notion that byakuya could have even gotten past nodt's blutz with kido so far is plain absurd for that matter. The only people who have shown sufficient proficiency at kido for it to be worth anything against the quincy so far would be tessai and hachi and maybe urahara (although he would still be screwed without his bankai). People who have actually mastered kido are exceptionally rare even in the most obscenely optimistic scenarios. For the most part the shinigami who can actually use it to a moderately high degree are still limited to using it for very specific things to complement their own fighting styles however for the vast mayority of shinigami (not tessai and hachi basically) using kido as a potential replacement for bankai plainly won't be an option.

  12. #9
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Tame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Liverpool
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    684
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    A lot of your post is based on power scaling which I won't get into because a) I can't be bothered and don't care enough b) it's too controversial c) it's at least partly conjectural and d) it assumes there's a consistency in the power levels. But I'm perfectly willing to admit that everything in your post regarding people's relative strengths is true. However, the following point still stands: Kido doesn't guarantess victory, obviously. And it's going to be less effective than going all-out with Bankai. Maybe Kido won't even do any damage at all to them, as you suppose. But it's got to have a better chance than what Byakuya actually elects to do: swinging his sword at them.

    He'd already seen that normal sword swings will get shrugged off, but he tries it again anyway. He doesn't even attempt Kido, even as a supplementary manoevre. Even if it failed (and I agree, at the level the Quincies are at, it's probably going to), at least he could report "Don't bother trying Kido guys, it doesn't work."

  13. #10
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member FetherMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    South Africa and America.
    Country
    South Africa
    Age
    33
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    867
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    The counter measure to the medallions, I imagine could be killing the user itself. Besides that, you'd have to be very powerful (as Kenpachi has already demonstrated) in order to fight the Star Knights without Bankai. However, I think it's kind of bullsh*t for Kubo to say that the Captains and some of these Star Knights are all on the same level of strength. I know, Byakuya could've defeated As Nodt without Bankai. Hell, he's mad skilled in kidou arts, what happened to that, Kubo?.

  14. #11
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,344
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    I don't think I got into the whole power scaling thing there. At least I don't think saying aizen is stronger than komamura or byakuya goes as far as being a power scaling discussion lol. I think in this case you underestimate the simple swinging of a sword though, at least considering what a zampakuto represents to a shinigami (their power, self, soul and whatnot). Other than against ichigo, hierro was at large useless against shinigami. It did not help nnoitora against kenpachi, it did not help zomari against byakuya, it did not protect stark from shunsui and it certainly did nothing for harribel. In general a zampakuto slash has shown to be quite powerful to say the least. That said, in byakuya's particular case he has not shown an exceptional amount of high level kido. He has shown 2 ranged hado as far as I recall, the level 4 one he used against ichigo and the level 30 something one that he used against renji and yami. As far as bakudo we have seen some higher level stuff (63 and 89 if I recall) but I doubt any of them would have been useful against nodt. Not to mention that the hado byakuya has shown are ranged attacks, I doubt it would be a smart move on his part to keep a ranged battle against a quincy with kido, he would at least need his shikai for that IMO. I mean, ranged battling is kinda a quincy's thing.

  15. #12
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Country
    Netherlands
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    252
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    We could now see that getting your Bankai stolen doesn't mean your Zanpakuto Spirit is gone, since Byakuya could still use Shikai. But still, what the OP said about the difference between Bankai and Shikai holds some merit. Bankai is an outward manifestation of the Shinigami's Spirit in a combative form. The possible key might lie in the very definition here.
    Shikai is a partial release. Bankai is a full release. I remember when Kirge could absorb Ayon, who was basically a manifestation of the Tres Bestia's power in a seperate form. I think these medallions are a tool utilizing a more specialized version of this technique. The ability to absord spirit particles and constructs of spirit particles. Since Shikai is not a full manifestation of a Shinigami's power, that might be the reason that it's physically impossible for Quincy to absorb/steal them. A Bankai is a full manifestation however, an that might make it technically possible. Ofcourse stealing someone's Bankai is the same as stealing their Reiatsu, it is a part of the Shinigami. That presumably makes it more difficult. But it may also have negative side effects to directly absorb a bankai power. Remember how Kirge looked as if he swallowed a barrel of uranium after he absorbed Ayon? That seemed like a serious drawback. So in order to facilitate bankai stealing ad avoid nasty side effects, they don't absorb it into themselves, but rather use specialized tools the seal them in. If this holds true, then these medallions work only on Bankai, not resurreccion.

    How does it not affect Ichigo? Well there are two ways in which his Bankai differs from others we have seen so far. One is the compression of Reiatsu. Though if my theory about the workings of these medallions is correct, then I highly doubt this is the reason his bankai cannot be stolen. The other big difference is that he can actually combine with his Zanpakuto, and he has done this through the final getsuga. Plus it was hinted that his hollow and shinigami powers have fused, as was seen during his training. Point is, Ichigo's bankai seems to be more of a part of him than other bankai so far. That might be why it's impossible to just rip it away.

    On a side note, this is indeed probably the reason why Ichigo is called a war potential. I think it simply means that he is a legitimate threat. He has the potential to beat the Sternritter due to his immunity to bankai theft. The Sternritter are captain level combatants. They are normally equal to the SS captains. However, the captains can only use Shikai against them, which give the SR a considerable advantage. Stealing Bankai means that the captain is not only limited to using Shikai, but must face a strong opponent who just gained their own secret weapon, their greatest power. That is pretty much overkill. However, these fail-safe ways of defeating Shinigami do not apply to Ichigo. Which makes him someone with the potential to turn the tides of battle.

    Kenpachi is a captain level combatant using only his constant release type shikai, making him a huge threat. He has already made his epic appearance carrying two dead SR on his back. Most people agree he is one of the 5 war potentials. I think Vandenreich wants to attack SS when a maximum of 1 or 2 war potentials are present since they waite for Ichigo to be cut off from SS.

    If Ichigo's bankai cannot be stolen due to FGT, if that holds true, then it's pretty much certain that Isshin, who is not a resident of SS, is also a war potential.

    The fourth is obviously Aizen. For one, his Shikai is not funny to fight against. Not funny at all. Once the most annoying, hax ability in the manga, it'll be pure gold to see him WTFPWN Quincy ass. However, during his hogyoku transformations, he seemed to blend/combine with his Zanpakuto in a similair way to Ichigo before he went FGT. This might indicate that he is also more combined with his Zanpakuto as a whle, whcih might make it impossible for his Bankai to be stolen. But his Shikai is simply hax, so that more than qualifies him.

    The fifth is a toss up between Yamamoto, Harribel and Grimmjow. Yama's Shikai is hax, but I figure he needs Bankai to beat the VR leader. Which poses a slight problem. Then there are Grimjow and Harribel. They are captain level combatants and their full power, Resurreccion, cannot be stolen. This could qualify them. But seeing Harribel defeated and locked away by Beardman, Grimmie might be the most logical choice here.

    The war potentials hold the potential to defeat Sternritter because they either 1) lack/don't need a bankai but can still kick ass or 2) have an unstealable bankai. But this does not mean that each of them could defeat Buckbeard.

  16. #13
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member deadsuit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    Maybe they can just break those cheap little medallions lol?
    Kenpachi does have a zanpaktuo and it does have a name (imo) because Zangestu was asking Ichigo if he "could hear the screams of his (Zaraki's) sword" during their fight

  17. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  18. #14
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,344
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    Zaraki's zampakuto having a name is a given. All zampakuto have a name, zaraki simply does not know his.

    Now, I am kinda confused on the current subject matter. Take a look at this particular page
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/497/3

    Hitsugaya attempts to communicate with his sword but he apparently gets not answer. Then we have this page:
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/502
    This page seems to imply that even after losing bankai shikai is still possible.

    Now, how would shikai be possible if the first link I posted seems to suggest it is the spirit itself which is stolen? Why would hitsugaya be unable to talk to hyorinmaru if he is still capable of shikai? Or perhaps ripping bankai out of a shinigami does not actually rid the user of the spirit but merely cripples it kinda? If the spirit is stolen then why are quincy able to use stolen bankai? Communication with the spirit is important to the power of a zampakuto and so far it would seem like there is nothing inside the badges other than the bankai.... Perhaps the badges are kinda similar to zampakuto in that they have feelings and personality and simply steal a zampakuto's power?

  19. #15
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member FetherMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    South Africa and America.
    Country
    South Africa
    Age
    33
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    867
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theory on how Quincy Medallions work+possible countermeasures

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Zaraki's zampakuto having a name is a given. All zampakuto have a name, zaraki simply does not know his.

    Now, I am kinda confused on the current subject matter. Take a look at this particular page
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/497/3

    Hitsugaya attempts to communicate with his sword but he apparently gets not answer. Then we have this page:
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/502
    This page seems to imply that even after losing bankai shikai is still possible.

    Now, how would shikai be possible if the first link I posted seems to suggest it is the spirit itself which is stolen? Why would hitsugaya be unable to talk to hyorinmaru if he is still capable of shikai? Or perhaps ripping bankai out of a shinigami does not actually rid the user of the spirit but merely cripples it kinda? If the spirit is stolen then why are quincy able to use stolen bankai? Communication with the spirit is important to the power of a zampakuto and so far it would seem like there is nothing inside the badges other than the bankai.... Perhaps the badges are kinda similar to zampakuto in that they have feelings and personality and simply steal a zampakuto's power?

    This is what confused me about the whole "bankai stealing". If you can steal Bankai, then Shikai should be impossible to use as well. Eventhough, I didn't see, Byakuya try to use Shikai against As Nodt. If you can't release the full power of the zanpakuto, then the medium (Shikai) should be rendered useless as well.

    Ichigo's Bankai must be incomplete period. That's the only theory I've come up with as to why, it can't be stolen in the first place. That's why, the other Bankais were stolen because they are completed. Other than that, I'm not sold on the "half human" theory, because Quincy's are humans themselves.

New Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts