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Translations: Gintama 515 by kewl0210
24h rule? Check.
Ok, last chapter ( for future reference, 594 ) really gave me a bad vibe, it pratically screamed Obito when he personally attacked Kakashi and Gai.
I never was someone who believed in the whole Tobito theory in the first place, and since I've got nothing better to do at the moment, I will try to explain why the Tobito theory doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I'm not saying that Tobi is not Obito, because Kishi in this arc made asspulls, retcons and plot holes to and fro, and this whole Tobito theory would simply be the last nail on Kishi's credibility as an author coffin.
I'll go by points:
The first, most important point of them all.
What make Obito ( a Naruto wannabe ) change idea in the time span of 1 or 2 years?
The same Obito believing in heroes and giving Kakashi his famous phrase, why would he make a speech on how the world doesn't need any heroes?.
We can easily see how Tobi and Obito share two, very different ideals, and unless he was brainwashed by someone, it would make no sense whatsoever for such a radical change.
Also, why harbour such a hate for his former sensei, his wife and his child to the point of covering the latter with paper bombs?
The same Yondaime that teached him and Kakashi about teamwork?
Remember Obito calling Kakashi captain as a sign of peace because Yondaime explained to him that Kakashi's life was the hardest of them all, asking him to understand where he comes from?
We know the Kyuubi's attack happened 1, 2 years at best after Kakashi's Gaiden, since Kakashi and Gai seem 14, 15 at best.
Here we see how an adult physique ( Kurenai's father ) isn't even comparable to the kids, while here we see Tobi having the same physique as Yondaime.
Obito never was renowed to have a peculiar height or bulk ( he seems on the short side ), so it doesn't make sense for him to obtain the body of an adult in a 1-2 years span.
Still it isn't a valid point, so I'll provide others:
Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?
A 16 years old saying that? After 1-2 years passed?
Are 2 years such a huge span of time to wait?
But wait, there is more:
The same Tobi that Kabuto knows not to be the real Madara saying, in front of Kabuto and Zetsu, both knowing his real identity, that he obtained Hashirama's tissue during that battle?
Maybe I forgot something, but as I recall, Hashirama died way before Obito was even born.
But there is more still.
Tobi was the one that "created" Akatsuki, and the one to gave Nagato the Rin'negan, the same Nagato Madara seem to know.
Wasn't Nagato, like, a lot older than Obito? He was Jiraiya's student, meaning he should have at least Yondaime's age, if not older.
Not counting also his knowledge about both Uchiha's jutsus and Uchiha's history, why would Obito have this reaction when talking about Izuna?
It was the only reaction he had, even when talking about the Uchiha's massacre or his banishment he was impassible.
Why then responding to Izuna?
Madara personally knows Tobi, the same Madara that was resurrected by Edo Tensei at the same state of his death, meaning Madara likely "died" around 30-40 years of age, judging by his overall aspect.
Was Obito even born? Remember, at Madara and Hashirama's prime an old fart like Hiruzen was just a kid
We know that Obito was a funny guy, but he was no genius, hell he was pretty average.
Yet the same Obito, in 2 years, managed to:
-gain enormous knowledge on seals
-Managing to control the Kyuubi with a 3 tomoe Sharingan, a feat that only Madara Uchiha can apparently do
-Making a contract with Kyuubi
-Having knowledge, skills and abilities that no normal ninja can have, associating him to Madara once again.
-Having superior abilities than Yondaime, someone hailed as the greatest prodigy of his era, matching him in combat while controlling the Kyuubi at the same time
-Already making plans for Infinite Tsukuyomi, so gaining knowledge on Rikudou Sennin and the Juubi, knowledge being long forgotten
Seems pretty unbelievable to me.
Unless severe PIS were to be exploited, Tobi being Obito should be impossible, unless this is, as many before have said, Obito's lifeless body being the host of Madara's eyes, and adapted through Zetsu's substance.
Or something outrageous like time-travel, or the like.
But knowing Kishi everything is possible
In any case, what Tobi looks like probably won't mean anything to us, since there are small amounts of evidence suggesting parts of his body aren't real.What really matters is who Tobi identifies himself as, which.....could be anyone. Up until the war started, it was Uchiha Madara. Now, it's suggested to at least be someone Kakashi and Gai knew.
Still, in ANY case, Obito should have nothing to do with any of this. I like to imagine that Kakashi Gaiden were never written. What would we think of Tobi then?
Last edited by Exodi; July 19, 2012 at 08:09 AM.
not long ago people were saying it was impossible for the real madara to be in the last coffin because tobi was the real madara .we all saw how that went
i wont be surprised if tobi turns out to be obito , i'll just be disappointed
many points you made can be justified by mere possession or a kind of fusion ,unfortunately there is enough room for asspulls ,even more so considering its kishi
its better to lower your expectations than to be frustrated when its revealed
I'd be cool with Tobi having an Uchiha technique that somehow links him to all Uchiha spiritually in some way. For example, if he can gleam memories from eyes he transports into his head. I'd even be okay if he only knew about Kakashi and Gai through simple spying. Tobi's been shown to be able to enter and leave Konoha at his liesure, even sitting at a damn ramen stand with Sasuke while jounin (or chuunin?) were behind their backs waxing poetic about Itachi.
Maybe Kishi's deliberately screwing with us because he knows how much ire the idea of Obito being Tobi brings. He wants us to set the message boards on fire so that when he makes his big reveal we'll all be relieved and somehow appreciate his ability to keep a secret and draw out suspense.
I absolutely agree with what you wrote. Along with that, Obito's character was too insignificant to make such an appearance as being one of the main villains. Obito is done, he served his purpose for Kakashi. The identity of Tobi will blow our minds.
While I do agree with what has been stated concerning Obito, I can't help but say that some people's deductions based off of what was stated in two panels is quite foolish, or at the very least, not pondered on enough to be considered reasonable.
Tobi's initial statement toward Kakashi can be explained in two ways:
1)Kakashi's utter and complete failure with raising Sasuke Uchiha as a Konoha Shinobi, of which Tobi is fully aware. During the end of the Kage Summit, Kakashi expressed his discontent with Sasuke and Tobi obviously can attribute his failure toward Sasuke with regret, disappointment, and things of the like. This answers the nature of Tobi's statement only partially, simply because he said "entire life". This is where the subsequent reason comes into play.
2)He has basic knowledge on Kakashi and his history. It should be of no surprise to anyone that Tobi could possibly know Kakashi's father the White Fang, and the actions he took, of which caused his death -- one could easily draw the conclusion that perhaps this is what attributed to Kakashi's "regret" or "disappointment" (because these are not completely accurate translations) during his life, and that Tobi happened to glean over this.
Or perhaps Tobi has knowledge on how Kakashi acquired the Sharingan. Unless it was explicitly stated to the contrary, I'm not entirely sure if the information concerning the Obtio incident was fully disclosed, especially since we know very little of the actions of the parties involved sequentially. Perhaps Tobi was simply interested as to how Kakashi got the sharingan and stumbled upon some information concerning Obito - in the same likeness, perhaps Tobi was interested in information concerning one his main adversaries and saw far more than just information concerning Obito; information as in, what happened to Rin that made Kakashi so disappointed (as noted by his "death" in the Pein saga), or something we are entirely ignorant of.
The point is that just because Tobi was slick with Kakashi doesn't automatically make him Obito, especially if you evaluate the facts, time, and other things that have already been mentioned that rebut the theory itself. Add that on to the fact that Tobi is quite resourceful and what you have here could simply be something that is attributed to prior knowledge or knowledge thereof. With Guy the comment Tobi made is readily explained. Guy never recalled Kisame's name and thus Madara responded knowing that fact. But I don't here too many people complaining about that so I'll leave it as it is.
I just want to say that just because Tobi implied that Kakashi and Gai would know his face, doesn't mean it's Obito. It could literally be anyone that they knew or was famous throughout history. People knew Madara's face for example from history books and whatnot. What about Izuna then? I still consider Izuna a strong candidate for being Tobi. It would explain why he understands brotherly relationships so well, especially being a younger brother (his speech to Sasuke). It would explain why he has such vast knowledge. Why he looks old. Why he has been waiting so long with releasing Kyuubi (since it's been sealed for decades). Why he has the ideals he has. Why he impersonated Madara, since he was the much more famous brother of the two (saying he was Izuna wouldn't strike nearly as much fear in the world). Why he reacts with clenching his hand when he speaks of Izuna (because it's HIM! And he's bitter about his history).
Just consider it.
Tobi says he's "no one". Well this is ironically almost literally true. While he was a big player in the past, NO ONE thinks about him when they think of the past. NO ONE remembers him. NO ONE says "Madara and Izuna were such powerful shinobi." He was NO ONE and SOMEONE at the same time.
Last edited by 3c; July 20, 2012 at 04:11 AM.
If he is Izuna, as you said he would certainly be bitter. Izuna gave everything for his brother and their cause and yet monuments were made to his brothers power and crimes, yet not his. He is "no one" because no one remembers him, only his brother.
He idolized his older brother so much that he gave him his eyes. His respect for Hashirama makes so much sense because he was the only man to best his older brother.
His discontent with the world and why he wants ever lasting peace ties back to his original life, since a child he fought and fought and fought, sacrificing everything and for what? He achieved nothing, his brother ultimately achieved nothing as well. You could argue that they both achieved great power, but to what ends? Now he has a chance to literally take over the world and stop his own suffering and the worlds suffering (or so he thinks).
Would also explain why he hates the Uchiha clan, due to them turning their back on Madara despite Madara trying to "save" them from becoming lapdogs.
The whole Naruto forum would implode if Tobi turns out to the Obito.
No, seriously, I think Kishi is trying to mislead the audience again on Tobi's identity. He was highly successful with the Tobi = Madara thing.
If the Masked Man is indeed Obito, then I hope it's more deep than that. Personally what I'd like to see is that the Masked Man is a Zetsu-esque mass of plant matter fused to Obito's corpse. Basically, a Madara parasite infesting his dead body, with access to his memories.
I just had to point out how flawed this would be.
As for the Izuna=Tobi theory, it can be, after all who says that only Hashirama had company when dealing with Madara?
Just like Hashirama bought Mito, Madara could've bought Izuna.
Yet it was said, if I'm not mistaken, that Izuna died some time later, blind, in combat. It would connect to the whole "I'm no one" speech Tobi gave, he was erased from history since he died and now he is a nobody
---------- Post added at 08:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 AM ----------
Uchiha Madara's power
IMO, the best scenario would be Izuna being Tobi, with either
A: Like previous posters mentioned before he would fully support Madara and his plans, OR
B: Actually hold grudge against Madara and basically amend the original plan to suit his own agenda
I'd be fine with both. A well written post too, this should be stickied on all Naruto forums for eternity so Obito = Tobi theory would never surface again.
Good thread. I for one am sick of all the Obito talk, and I believe Tobi to most likely be Kagami. It's ironic that some say "kagami would make no sense, would be a sucky reveal" etc, yet Obito would be completely fine?