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Quite simply, isn't Tobi the one claiming to be the person that gave the Rinnegan to Nagato? So, by logic, Nagato, who was probably older than Kakashi, received a Rinnegan 30-odd years ago.
Add this the fact that Tobi shouldn't be able to possess and share the power of Rinnegan as a kid, so it's more than likely that he was well into his thirties, perhaps even older than that when he gave the Rinnegan.
So, practically he needs to be around 70 or more in terms of age, which makes it impossible for him to be Obito, not to mention the unrealistic idea that Obito could somehow battle and survive Minato in a real fight.
My prediction :
Tobi is actually Sasuke . He somehow(Maybe Naruto taught him after the tension b/w 'em gets cleared and Sasuke reaches the pinacle of Zen) learned the space/time justsu upgraded and then went back in time to "train" Naruto to be strong enough to defeat some threat that killed the original Naruto
Now in actuality , some dark shit will happen forcing the people who are now war hardened , alert and united to back Naruto as he takes on some serious shit .
Anyway, I never fell for the Tobi = Obito theory. Nor with Tobi being the real Uchiha Madara.
Now what I do think is that Obito's body is being used by someone, somehow. Probably using either the real Madara's cells and Zetsu cells in order to be active and he has access to Obito's memories. Why choose Obito? He was dead at the time. He was an Uchiha. We don't know if he was somewhat special as we've seen before with others. His body could be easily adapted to Zetsu cells. The fact that he's also able to slip through space could also indicate that it has a connection to Kakashi's Kamui.
Tobi being Izuna or Kagami also makes sense. Izuna being forgotten by the world, the same with Kagami.
Either way, we'll surely learn his identity soon.
Though, let's not forget, Tobi was still pretending to be Madara when he told Konan how he gave Nagato his eyes, which could have been a lie. We know he was most likely the one who attacked Konoha, especially considering how short his hair was compared to six or seven years later when he met Kisame and Itachi. We don't know when Madara died, or if Madara did give Nagato his eyes. All we know is that Madara may have had something to do with it, or Tobi.
But, we were shown Kagami (probably to show that Sasuke was being an idiot and Tobi was a liar, or to reinforce that), and how some Uchiha after Madara's defection began to agree with Madara. Maybe Kagami was the same, after seeing what Tobirama did?
All I know is that there is no way Obito is involved. Not his body, which is crushed, not his memories, nothing. What Tobi said to Kakashi could be said by anyone insightful or anyone in Konoha who knew Kakashi. I mean, Kakashi does stand in front of Obito's grave almost every single day. And, Tobi knew about Kisame's forgetfulness too, so it's not just focused on Kakashi.
Another reason why Tobi can't be Obito: Tobi has wrinkle under his eyes. Obito had no wrinkles, nor would he be old enough to have wrinkles. Zetsu isn't an excuse, since Tobi's hand looked young and wholesome when he invaded Konoha and freed the Kyuubi. The face can't be Obito's, it has to be someone else's.
If you compare Tobi's right eye, whether unmasked or masked, it looks more like Madara's, with bag under the right eye.
And although Tobi can warp himself, he can also go intangible. Kakashi doesn't have that kind of power. That's like, two powers that Tobi has, ability to warp himself and anything touching him and ability to go intangible. No Sharingan or Mangekyo has shown two powers with one eye. It's been Amaterasu in one eye, genjutsu in the other, and with both eyes, Susano'o.
This is an argument from silence. Any number of things can make Obito change his ideals. We still don't know what happened to Rin, for example. It's possible she died soon after, he found out Kakashi failed to save her and whoever was working on him (likely the real Madara) finally destroyed what mental defenses he had left. But this is pure speculation on my part. I'd much rather deal with concrete facts than speculation.Quote:
Hate and ruthlessness are not the same thing. He covered Naruto with paper bombs because he was bait to get Yondaime. Danzou's subordinates didn't do anything to him either but he had no problem killing one and ordering Kabuto to painfully erase the other to demonstrate edo tensei. It's obvious tobi has pretty much no regard for human life anymore. Plus, he could resent Minato for not saving him or Rin.Quote:
It's actually more like 1 year, and to an impatient 14 year old, it's possible. It's even more possible that he wanted Minato to deduce that he's Madara and threw him a few hints to guide him towards that conclusion.Quote:
Are you sure Zetsu knows his real identity? When Tobi removed his mask, Kisame recognized him as Madara. It's also possible (and in line with Kishi's trolling) that he talks like he is Madara purely out of habit, even when it's not necessary. We know he isn't, and we know it was the real Madara who actually fought Hashirama, so him saying that is weird no matter which way you look at it.Quote:
He was pretending to be Madara, so of course he'd claim Madara's accomplishments as his own.Quote:
To trick Sasuke (who looks like he noticed the gesture)? It's also possible that the body language was involuntary and a tick that shows he's lying rather than emotionally invested in the story.Quote:
Madara knew Nagato as a kid, and Nagato's just a little bit older than Kakashi/Obito, so it's plausible, though I admit the timeline is a bit tight. Like you I agree that Kishi has been retconning a lot of things, and it's possible that even if he planned for Tobi to be Obito from the beginning, he just didn't think this through well enough. For the record, the timeline has bothered me too. Kakashi is 29-30 in part 2. That would make him 14 when the kyuubi attacked leaving about a year between the gaiden and the kyuubi attack. That's a lot of stuff for Obito to learn and 25cm for him to grow, so if Obito = Tobi then he must have had one hell of a good teacher with a solid rack to help him stretch.Quote:
If only there was a similar character in this manga who happened to be thoroughly incompetent as a kid and who ended up gaining immense power within 2-3 years.Quote:
---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 PM ----------
There is no confirmation that his phasing is a sharingan ability.Quote:
It's not scars. Scars look more like Kakashi's or the X on Danzou's chin. It was an eye bag, like Madara's, and wrinkles, signifying old age. It can't be Obito. I don't recall any scars looking like wrinkles in this manga.
It's not, but it can be assumed it's related to the Sharingan. Phasing and warping don't require seals, and whenever we saw Tobi warp, there were spirals coming from his eye. So far, Tobi hasn't shown to be able to do anything out of using Sharingan.
Kuchiyose no jutsu is not related to sharingan. Warping is not necessarily related to phasing. Also, what does this have to do with whether he's obito or not?Quote:
It would not leave wrinkles that make Tobi look like an old man. Plus, it's never a good idea to compare Naruto to real life stuff.
Where did Obito get the ability to summon Kyuubi from? Or the knowledge of the seal to lock the Kyuubi in or free the Kyuubi? Or the Sharingan, which should have been crushed, to control the Kyuubi? How did he know about barriers to protect Kushina and even get through it without detection? Obito can't have picked up that kind of skills in less than five years.
He has lines similar to Obito on the right side of his face but not on the left. Those lines are where he usually wears the bandages, and between that and the asymmetrical pattern we can reasonably assume they came from damage rather than age.
The sharingan is unlikely to have been crushed. If the rock had smashed his head that badly he'd have died on the spot.Quote:
Madara told him how.Quote:
This is merely your own baseless speculation. Naruto went from nothing to kage level in 2-3 years, and that's without someone with the expansive skillset and knowledge of Madara (jiraiya's good but nowhere near madara level).Quote:
Last edited by Darth Executor; July 31, 2012 at 07:33 PM.
How could it be Obito when not only did Madara die before Obito was likely even out of diapers, but Tobi was active forming Akatsuki and partnering with Kisame before the Third War?
two wrinkles under his eye, or at least one under his bag.
Obito has no bag under his eyes, like Madara does, even in his younger years.
The wrinkles would have come from old age, not scars or from damage or from Zetsu.
How would Madara give him teh ability to summon the Kyuubi? Or the ability to free the Kyuubi? Obito has shown no talent for genjutsu, especially a strong genjutsu to be able to control the Kyuubi. Obito has shown no ounce of skill or talent to take on Minato or even be able to control the Kyuubi.Quote:
Nor can his body be used due to how destroyed it was.
Not really. It can be crushed in different ways without really killing Obito himself. Plus, you can't really apply real world logic to this manga. Jiraiya by all counts shouldn't have been able to come back to life just by willpower, but he still did that. I think Tsunade got stabbed right in the heart, or near the heart, by Orochimaru but she still lived through that and healed the damage.Quote:
Plus, we've never seen Tobi's Mangekyo whenever he used the warping ability. Kakashi always uses his Mangekyo.
How did Madara know what barrier was being used?Quote:
Naruto didn't even reach kage level until he took Kyuubi's chakra, regardless of what anyone says. At the earliest, he reached kage level when he mastered Sage Mode. Naruto has shown the ability to get stronger, Obito has shown nothing.Quote:
Though to be fair, Naruto did chicken out on his first mission like Obito did, but he improved on the same mission.
Tobi even says his old name is Tobi. Why wouldn't he say Obito? "Call me Madara, Tobi, Obito, or whatever you want"?
The knowledge Tobi has can't have been learned in few years under Madara. Tobi looks like he's been alive for years before Obito's birth. And since Obito died, there's no way he can grow, especially if he's made up of Zetsu.