Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (8/11/14 - 8/17/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Bleach 592 by BadKarma , Gintama 506 (2)
New Reply
Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: True power of high speed afterimage techniques

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Revolation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,479
    Post Thanks / Like

    True power of high speed afterimage techniques

    Alright so I've been wondering what are the true extent of what can be done with high speed after image techniques such as Zommari's Gemelos Sonido or Soi Fon's unnamed shunpo technique.

    Can each so called "clone" actually deal physical damage individually? I ask this because when Zommari used Gemelos Sonido on Byakuya, he demonstrated how all his clones and he could do certain actions in unison, even speaking. So I would think he could attack with all five of his clones in the same manner.
    He did such a thing when he stabbed Byakuya when revealing he could have up to five clones in unison.



    See gif here if above gif link ever gets broken

    It appeared that Byakuya was stabbed from both the front and the back. However, after the scene in the gif above, the "clone" in the front dispersed, leaving the real zommari in the back. It then appeared (to me) that Byakuya had only been stabbed in the back. Of course after that Byakuya revealed his use of Yoruichi's Cicada technique, but that's besides the point. His substituted haori still seemed to only be stabbed from the back.

    So can an afterimage technique actually deal multiple sources of damage from the each of the "clones". The first initial three clones after all were making to attack Byakuya before he slashed and Byakurai'd them respectively. But it's kind of sketchy. But if it is possible for the clones to all deal damage, then say if Zommari fired a cero through all his clones, it would be five separate ceros?

    See further here
    and the full battle here
    Last edited by Revolation; July 19, 2012 at 09:53 AM.
    Bleach 354-356 spoiler and chapter discussions. Most hilarious ones ever. How hueco mundo and The Lust arc killed "ichihime"
    Spoiler: What happened with Nel and Kenpachi after Ichigo went to Ulqiorra(vol 39 sketches) show

  2. #2
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    526
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: True power of high speed afterimage techniques

    Forgive me for using Naruto references but this is the best way I can explain it. An afterimage is only a "clone" in the sense that it's an illusion. Say genjutsu clone vs shadow clone; in this case the afterimage is a genjutsu clone not a shadow clone.

    If you have 5 Zomari clones firing a cero it would draw out the cero in an arc of firing which draws out (if seen from the top and he's moving in 2 dimensions) the picture of how he moved in order to create those "clones" so the shape of an arc (if he moved counterclockwise) or a star shape (if he jumped from place to place) etc. and it would only do the damage of one Zomari's cero not 5x cero.

    This might be getting too scientific, but another thing to mention is that afterimages are seen by the eye because the eye can only process a certain amount of info at once. It's the same idea used in animation and motion pictures (i guess?) with frames per second. If you have something with a greater number of frames per second than the eye can take in the info from, it can easily mislead the eyes into seeing something that isn't there. A strobe light flashing on a propeller or a fan will give you the same kinda effect as Zomari's clones except it'd be the propeller blade that would be cloned etc.

    At least this is how I see it. Hope it makes sense.
    Last edited by Anduren; July 19, 2012 at 07:32 PM.

  3. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  4. #3
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkBankai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Country
    United Nations
    Age
    35
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,043
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: True power of high speed afterimage techniques

    well I look at it like a high frequency multiplexing system.
    or you could think of it like florescent lighting.

    if the light or clone appears solid, it is safe to say that it is moving fast enough to provide 60 frames per second. just like a light.
    for 5 clones, you would need 60 frames per second per clone,

    so the arrancar would need to be moving at very very fast speeds, and lets assume for the moment that somehow his spiritual pressure balances out the inertia forces,

    if each clone had a bandwidth of 60 hz,
    then we are looking at a total bandwidth for 5 clones at around 300 hz.

    but that is just for the clones to appear, the further apart the clones are the more bandwidth you would need for them so that they could move in a non symmetrical pattern around a focal point.

    I would say, in bleachverse, that the arrancar is effectively moving x_X_X_X_X where the underscores_ are at a faster rate than the X.
    the X being the clone.

    This would allow the X to stand out, and not have a blurry image while the single entity moved from X to X-
    since the _ underscore is invisible, they must be moving at bullet like speeds, but able to slow down to meet the 60 hz requirement or else they would appear to flicker.

    so we have two sets of speeds, the speed required for the clone to materialize, and the speed required for the main body to move from clone to clone fast enough to satisfy the bandwidth requirements of each clone.

    say 1 Gigahertz for the _ and 300 HZ per HZ of the X. for a total of 18k effectively riding on top of the carrier frequency of the underscore._


    Be proud, that after receiving my blade you still retain the shape of a human.

  5. #4
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,561
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: True power of high speed afterimage techniques

    I find the idea that an after image could deal damage a little weird. I guess we have to consider the possibillity of the techniques we have seen involving some level of kido. Dealing damage still seems unlikely however the manga has kinda shown some after image techniques to have a certain solid quality to them after being hit so perhaps a tad of kido in combination with high speed would be an ideal explanation. They are high level techniques, combining several shinigami arts is not that weird a thought. We have seen kido work in tandem with zampakuto after all so the ideal of combining several combat forms actually makes sense.

    So perhaps there are two levels to the whole thing. On one hand you can create the sort of after images ichigo made when fighting byakuya which seemed to be rather short lived and are simply the result of moving too fast for the enemy to properly persist (so it would be a matter of perspective) and then there are other actual clone techniques which add in a little kido to create clones with just about enough functionality to do what we have seen.

  6. #5
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Starrked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Moon
    Country
    United States
    Age
    21
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    213
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: True power of high speed afterimage techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    This might be getting too scientific, but another thing to mention is that afterimages are seen by the eye because the eye can only process a certain amount of info at once. It's the same idea used in animation and motion pictures (i guess?) with frames per second. If you have something with a greater number of frames per second than the eye can take in the info from, it can easily mislead the eyes into seeing something that isn't there. A strobe light flashing on a propeller or a fan will give you the same kinda effect as Zomari's clones except it'd be the propeller blade that would be cloned etc.
    I completely agree with this. The fact that it's an afterimage is meant to confuse or distract the subject. The same technique has been used in different anime like Pokémon and Dragonball Z where they've all used an afterimage to make their enemy believe that they've been attacked or were going to attack from that point. (But there was a point in DBZ where they could actually make clones just like how Naruto can and they all fought together so don't over-think it too far.)

    The only way I see any afterimage dealing physical damage is if the user is fast enough to deal a blow and leave an afterimage in its place while he moves on to the other points to deal more damage. You dig what I'm saying?
    Burn to ashes, then rise again.

  7. #6
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Country
    Holy Britannian Empire
    Posts
    1,087
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: True power of high speed afterimage techniques

    But surely the user is, at some point in time, at the point where the 'afterimage' appears. Therefore, they can easily deal damage as an afterimage. The damage would occur before the defender realized that the user has moved on. They would see the image and feel the damage at the same time.

    The strange thing, if we were to assume it was in the real life, would be why the user slows down at all. Why make these afterimages if you can move (and therefore attack) at a speed faster than the target can register?
    Infinite RAGE!

  8. #7
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    557
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: True power of high speed afterimage techniques

    I still don't get the "afterimage" effect TBH. Sure, I understand how moving at an incredibly fast speed can generate several "clones", but to me each clone dealing a separate attack or taking separate damage is kinda...well...a load of bulls**t!!!

    So, lets say that a Shinigami can use high speed to appear as 3 separate clones; clone A, clone B, and clone C. In order to acheive this, the Shinigami must move rapidly to clone A's position, then clone B's position, then clone C's position, then back to clone A's position again...sure I get this...like somebody said above, it's something akin to multiplexing...

    Now here comes the bulls**t...lets say the Shinigami's 3 clones are doing different things; clone A is hitting the enemy with their Zanpakutou, clone B is kicking the enemy (and isn't holding their Zanpakutou), and clone C is taking a devastating blow. So here it goes.....
    • The Shinigami first must move to clone A's position, so they must draw their Zanpakutou and move it into position.
    • The Shinigami must then move to clone B's position, so they must sheath their Zanpakutou again (a bit pointless if clone A hasn't contacted the enemy with the Zanpakuou yet), and move their leg into the kicking position.
    • The Shinigami must then move to clone C's position, so they must move their leg back (again, a bit pointless if clone B's kick hasn't yet connected), and take this enemy's attack...
    • ...and here comes the biggest pile of s**t...the Shinigami must then move back to clone A's position, which means they must not only redraw their Zanpakutou and move it back into position, but they must also "magically" tidy up any damage done to the blow delivered to clone C...

    It's...just...pointless...and bulls**t!!! I mean, in order to acheive the above, the Shinigami must constantly draw and sheath their Zanpakutou (even when they've not yet connected with the enemy), repeatedly do the can-can with their leg, and even more ridiculous, to create clone C they must be repeatedly take a stab and somehow heal it before they move back into clone A's position!!!!!

    ---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolation View Post
    Alright so I've been wondering what are the true extent of what can be done with high speed after image techniques such as Zommari's Gemelos Sonido or Soi Fon's unnamed shunpo technique.

    Can each so called "clone" actually deal physical damage individually? I ask this because when Zommari used Gemelos Sonido on Byakuya, he demonstrated how all his clones and he could do certain actions in unison, even speaking. So I would think he could attack with all five of his clones in the same manner.
    He did such a thing when he stabbed Byakuya when revealing he could have up to five clones in unison.



    See gif here if above gif link ever gets broken

    It appeared that Byakuya was stabbed from both the front and the back. However, after the scene in the gif above, the "clone" in the front dispersed, leaving the real zommari in the back. It then appeared (to me) that Byakuya had only been stabbed in the back. Of course after that Byakuya revealed his use of Yoruichi's Cicada technique, but that's besides the point. His substituted haori still seemed to only be stabbed from the back.

    So can an afterimage technique actually deal multiple sources of damage from the each of the "clones". The first initial three clones after all were making to attack Byakuya before he slashed and Byakurai'd them respectively. But it's kind of sketchy. But if it is possible for the clones to all deal damage, then say if Zommari fired a cero through all his clones, it would be five separate ceros?

    See further here
    and the full battle here
    The image you've posted demonstates my point perfectly; how could one of Zommari's clones take damage and the other one be unscathed (after the damage was done, all of the other clones would also be damaged)? Furthermore, what would be the point of repeatedly doing the limbo to simulate one of the clones falling down?
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

  9. #8
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Country
    Holy Britannian Empire
    Posts
    1,087
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: True power of high speed afterimage techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee.J.Baxter View Post
    The image you've posted demonstates my point perfectly; how could one of Zommari's clones take damage and the other one be unscathed (after the damage was done, all of the other clones would also be damaged)? Furthermore, what would be the point of repeatedly doing the limbo to simulate one of the clones falling down?
    I would try to explain manga logic - but I believe that Philip J Fry explains this ability best.

    --- edit ---

    Sorry, I guess that was kind of unhelpful.
    What I mean to say is that although the technique is caused by Sonido alone (or so it is suggested). There is more to Sonido than just high speed movement.
    This is highlighted by the separate Shunpo techniques (such as the dying image one that Byakuya learned from Yoruichi).
    Otherwise, what would the differences between Shunpo and Sonido would be?
    Last edited by zimbardo; July 03, 2013 at 05:58 PM.
    Infinite RAGE!

  10. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
New Reply

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts