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Originally Posted by badluckartist
No one said the burden of proof was on you, I simply wanted to see how you could claim it's not in the databook. The only way you could be positive is if you've saw the databook scan for handseals, Tobirama Senju, and Suiryudan, and didn't come up with anything about handseals being skippable. As of right now, the only thing giving what you say any validity whatsoever is my assumption that you HAVE looked at these scans and didn't see them in there. Which clashes perfectly with my memory (which could be wrong) that I DID see them in the databook somewhere.
It's not about who the burden of proof lies on. It's about who wants to be taken seriously. We wanted to, so we looked up scans that imply what we're saying is correct. You countered canon manga scans with... something unrelated to Kishi's work. If you wanted to prove us wrong, then the simplest thing in the world would be to show us what proves us wrong within the confines of manga canon. Databook or scans.
I'm sure there are some instances in the manga where handseals aren't shown for the sake of time. Not all the time though. In Tobirama's situation there was no time to perform that many handseals despite handspeed, and we already know Tobirama can use high level Suiton without having water nearby, which goes to prove he can do things ninja aren't normally supposed to be able to do with Suiton. How is it nonsensical to think he can mold water well enough that he doesn't need all the handseals for jutsu he's proficient with?Quote:
And no, I don't think every ninja shown to perform 1 handseal during a jutsu only needed one instead of the full amount. I do think some are that proficient though (Tobirama). I also don't think everytime we only see one handseal it's because Kishimoto just skipped a whole scene of convoluted handseals. I also think you're stretching the "not enough pages to show handseals" excuse a bit too far based on instances like when Minato performs all the handseals in one blur for his "transport Bijuudama outside the village" S/T jutsu feat some time back in the manga. It took one panel to show an innumerable amount of seals. And with Kakashi using a double Raikiri against Kakuzu to block Gian, I don't even remember him performing a single handseal. And sure there's off panel tricks that can be played too (ninja did seals off panel so when they rush in with a jutsu you see no seals, just the jutsu).
I know they aren't, hence I only used the scans that are directly from the manga when referring to Tobirama's expertise with Suiton. Nothing whatsoever implies handseals were skipped by Kishi rather than Tobirama in the instance we posted. Infact, we see the passage of time between him spitting out his first bit of water and then performing the Suiryudan. Not everything is explained step by step, and not every time that handseals aren't present is it because of Kishi simply not wanting to show them. In some instances it's to show how fast someone's seal speed is (Itachi). In others, it's to show how good someone is at ninjutsu (Tobirama).Quote:
Why Tobi didnt used the Rinnegan to absorb that Rasengan even if the Rasengan and that part of himself were in the another dimension?
Always remember the difference between part 1 and 2, in part 1 hand-seals were a big deal ( and infact Naruto could learn Rasengan because it didn't need difficult hand-seals to remember, at least according to Jiraiya ), while in part 2 hand-seals just lost their relevance, now everyone does jutsus with 1, 2 seals at best, when showed.
The Tobirama example is perfect for it, later in the series we saw Kisame and Itachi, just to name two, using stronger Suitons with a single hand-seals, or even with none.
hand-seals for Chidori
hand-seals for Chidori
The most eclatant case?
Kuchiyose no jutsu, in part 1 only Oro could bypass the hand-seals thanks to his tatoo, now everyone uses it without any hand-seal, hell sometime its used even without blood
I'm with Badluckartist in the statement that those who state that jutsus can be used without seals or with decreased number of seal, have made a positive statement and would require supplying the proof. Now as its been already shown its difficult to do that.
however when Badluckartist and other like-minded persons state that only parts of the handseals were drawn and rest left out for convenience, they also make a positive statement and need to show the proof. i think its also clear by this time that its as difficult to prove.
So the conclusion is that its a case of rather bad writing from kishimoto. something so essential as these should've been made clear. however the way things stands now, i guess its upto the readers' interpretation. in that case i believe ninjabot's interpretation makes the best sense. Proficient guys don't require handseals, cause it simply isn't believable to me that high level ninja-battles provides so much intervals between exchanges that those guys have so much time to do all the seals.
Kakashi should be at his limit right now, but still he has a power to use his kamui. Does the kyubi's chakra is the reason why kakashi's ms is still activated? Itachi said that the blindness of the ms is cause by kyubi. So maybe the kyubi's chakra can also heal it or can undo the curse. Just a thought.
Well, about the one hand seal topic, i think kishi doesn't really need to draw the entire seal everytime the ninja will going to use his jutsu. Example is sasuke's chidori. It was such a lame and a waste of manga page if kishi will going to draw the entire hand seals everytime sasuke use it.
But still, maybe it depends if the jutsu just need a one hand seal. Like minato's hiraishin or tobirama's water jutsu. So maybe the user's jutsu or the creator can use a one hand seal to execute his jutsu if he wants to. So it depends how profficient he was to his jutsu.
Where was that said?Quote:
I remember someone stating how to get the power to control the Kyuubi would mean you going blind but i don't remember the above?!?! How could Kyuubi effect it like that? Can you link us please?
WOW.. seems like every time someone write something someone gets all crybaby. You know how long the manga would be if everyone made all the handseals? just enjoyit till it is explained. Ever notice people are slowly not responding on this site.
Kakashi : Suiryūdan no Jutsu !!!
Yamato: You forgot the seals dude! Viewer ratings are going to take a dip.
Kakashi : *** that, I'm too high level for that sh1t. Muhahaa, Kishi sort it out mate.
Kishi : kekekeke, *Draws image of Sasuke*
Viewers live happily ever after.
Because I think of handseals as being more important to the process of creating a jutsu than you do. I think of them as parts, or like instructions for the chakra. Like I said though, it's not that the 'cutting down on handseals' idea is unrealistic in the bounds of the series, it's just that there's a more logical explanation that doesn't involve making up mechanics that have never been introduced.Quote:
I've really got nothing but "I disagree". I've never heard of a ninja being able to cut down on handseals, so I assume their being done off-panel (wisely so). There is really no reason to think otherwise.Quote:
It's like we're reading a different manga. For a kage level ninja, there seemed like more than enough time to cast all those seals on the page before. If ninja can shunshin, then why is it so unbelievable that they're just doing all the seals *that* fast? There really is no difference between Itachi's 'too-fast-for-you' seals and Tobirama's scene, except nobody in Tobirama's scene made a single comment on his seal speed, or claimed that he only used one seal. Eh, there's really no conclusion to this disagreement I guess :PQuote:
kishi,I beg you! show us this fight without focusing on something else. right now,the only interesting thing aside from tobi's identity and hawk's target is finding yamato out! now that the zetsu have been killed,the original white has been burnt and the black one has been defeated,it's safe if someone frees yamato,who joins the fight versus tobi.
Also Kishi drew 1 panel each for all those 44 handseals, so if he really wanted to do it it wouldn't be a problem, hell he always made 1, 2 panels tops for handseals
It is also kind of funny that Mifune's main strenght against ninjas, not make them do handseals, would be utterly useless against any ninja chunin level and beyond that are displayed in this manga.