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View Poll Results: thoughts on why Ichigo isn't affected

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Thread: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

  1. #16
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member bleach fan 101's Avatar
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, so far the manga has hinted at masaki being a human pretty strongly. I mean, the very chapter when ichigo found out about his dad we had the whole setup with ichigo saying to himself that the answer to "a human and a..." was right in front of him. Somehow I doubt it is ishin who is a human lol. In this regard, masaki is likely to be the human aizen was talking about and ishin is a shinigami. Anyways, the odds of masaki being a spiritual being are extremely low to say the least. Being a quincy should be irrelevant biologically considering quincy are supposed to be human so far. More so, the whole thing about being pure blood was said as a result of finding out ichigo was the son of a real shinigami rather than just a human with shinigami powers. If we consider what we have seen regarding born shinigami then I would think being born a shinigami results on being better on average in terms of spirit power. Shunsui, ukitake, byakuya, soifon and basically every actual noble we know of (which so far means they were born in SS) are captain/VC level shinigami. At least based on the context of what GF was talking about it makes more sense the pure blood thing was a trait gotten from ishin, the shinigami, than from masaki, the human.
    In my opinion, Ichigo saying "a human and a.." was a red herring because Aizen didn't finish his sentence, so we don't know for definite, I believe that it was Kubo's way to distract us from what Masaki is, and you never know he could have been thinking of Isshin when he said "a human"
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  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member FetherMan's Avatar
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    I don't think it's necessarily the "type" of Bankai Ichigo uses or the fact that it becomes a part of his body meaning the "Shihakusho" or whatever it's called. Ichigo's shinigami powers are still mixed with "hollow" and now "fullbring" as well. So, his bankai isn't traditional or similar in terms of "standards" versus the other captains of Soul Society.

    Plus, not sure if this means anything or not, but Ichigo is "half human" as well and that could factor into it a little. I doubt it, I just think that it's because Ichigo's powers are mixed up and merged together that his "Shikai" or "Bankai" are completely different and work on a different rule of reiatsu (or spirit power) than the others. Plus, a "Quincy" bases his techniques and fighting skills on absorbing reiatsu (basic spiritual power) that's available around them, so it's not surprising that they've devised a weapon to steal Bankai.

    However, no matter what are theories are, Kubo will come up with some lame excuse to this mystery and it won't be remotely interesting.

  3. #18
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zatono's Avatar
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    Well, with the whole Asauchi thing, I think it's a good time to talk about this again.

    Perhaps the reason that Ichigo's bankai can't be stolen is because the way the medallion works is that it steals the Asauchi? Since Ichigo doesn't have one he's automatically immune to the theft.

    I haven't been following the Bleach discussions, so I'm not sure if anyone's come up with this yet.

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shader's Avatar
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    Case this is not his ban-kai
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-617-5/b...apter-163.html
    Kuchiki was right all the way back there.

  5. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member exacta's Avatar
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    Quote Originally Posted by Shader View Post
    Case this is not his ban-kai
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-617-5/b...apter-163.html
    Kuchiki was right all the way back there.
    I doubt it, because Byakuya clearly hasn't seen Gin Ichimaru's Bankai. It doesn't even change shape. Of course it can extend extremely long distances, but to judge it's size by it's attack would be like judging the size of Ichigo's Bankai based on how big GT is. Unohana's appears to be small too, but we don't even know what the hell that thing was.....

  6. #21
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    it could have something to do with ichigo's quincy powers protecting his bankai? that could be what OMZangetsu was referring to when he said he had started helping ichigo at some point... And since Ichigo is part quincy would it be possible for him to steal back other bankai or to otherwise do something with a medallion if they take it back? (like using the medallion, or somehow getting a replica and stealing it back when a quincy uses it so at the veery least they can't use it...)

  7. #22
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    You know, looking back, maybe Ichigo's connection to Bach through Zangetsu is the reason after all. I'm guessing it's probably because the medallion is meant to steal Bankai deriving from shinigami powers, not Quincy powers, though.
    Last edited by exacta; August 19, 2013 at 10:27 PM.

  8. #23
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    I thought it was obvious, Ichigo is a Quincy, so any device is useless against him, just like Kirge's jail. Aaand his bankai wasn't an actual bankai, so how can you steal bankai if it's not bankai?

  9. #24
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    I would argue the actual reason is that ichigo did not have to begin with an asauchi. As he was manifesting his shinigami powers into the world with a different method from the one used by shinigami normally the medals failed to be able to steal it. As we have seen an asauchi is a link between a shinigami and his zampakuto. The first step towards mastery of a zampakuto is going to the zampakuto's world and learning its name. The second stage is mastering bankai which requires bringing out a zampakuto into the real world and beating the everloving crap out of it. Basically bankai is about bringing your innermost power, a deep section of your soul, out into the world. Ichigo just brought out his shinigami power into the world via quincy powers perhaps (it was said quincy had the ability to materialize weapons early in the manga), they weren't really deposited anywhere as would be the case if he has an asauchi. With an asauchi his powers are deposited in it which basically means a piece of his soul is out in the world so to speak. The quincy prey on that and directly steal (or mutilate) that part of the soul shinigami deposit into asauchi. My own theory is that medals are ultimately a variation of asauchi which rather than take in the essence of someone and become a zampakuto simply functions to steal a zampakuto. Perhaps they are "empty" asauchi, they do not have a living part taking in the stolen zampakuto.

    Of course the implication of that would be that now ichigo's bankai can in fact be stolen. Unless it can only steal zampakuto which would mean that old man zangetsu can prevent the stealing from happening altogether or it can steal white zangetsu but not old man zangetsu meaning that ichigo won't be left along even if he does have his zampakuto stolen.

  10. #25
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I would argue the actual reason is that ichigo did not have to begin with an asauchi. As he was manifesting his shinigami powers into the world with a different method from the one used by shinigami normally the medals failed to be able to steal it. As we have seen an asauchi is a link between a shinigami and his zampakuto. The first step towards mastery of a zampakuto is going to the zampakuto's world and learning its name. The second stage is mastering bankai which requires bringing out a zampakuto into the real world and beating the everloving crap out of it. Basically bankai is about bringing your innermost power, a deep section of your soul, out into the world. Ichigo just brought out his shinigami power into the world via quincy powers perhaps (it was said quincy had the ability to materialize weapons early in the manga), they weren't really deposited anywhere as would be the case if he has an asauchi. With an asauchi his powers are deposited in it which basically means a piece of his soul is out in the world so to speak. The quincy prey on that and directly steal (or mutilate) that part of the soul shinigami deposit into asauchi. My own theory is that medals are ultimately a variation of asauchi which rather than take in the essence of someone and become a zampakuto simply functions to steal a zampakuto. Perhaps they are "empty" asauchi, they do not have a living part taking in the stolen zampakuto.

    Of course the implication of that would be that now ichigo's bankai can in fact be stolen. Unless it can only steal zampakuto which would mean that old man zangetsu can prevent the stealing from happening altogether or it can steal white zangetsu but not old man zangetsu meaning that ichigo won't be left along even if he does have his zampakuto stolen.
    He just doesn't have to use Bankai. Not that he needs it against SR... And against Juha he can, Juha has already Zanka no Tachi. Would he feel threatened enough to take Ichigo's Bankai, discarding ZnT? I still think the main reason is Ichigo having Quincy power in him. If it's not like that Ichigo won't be so hax now. He has so much power having his full Shinigami powers, that he should handle SRs with Shikai easily, just like Kenpachi, but any SR could steal his allmighty Bankai, so using it would be stupid. So much for mastering his Bankai...
    Last edited by Duniak; August 22, 2013 at 04:21 PM.

  11. #26
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    He just doesn't have to use Bankai. Not that he needs it against SR... And against Juha he can, Juha has already Zanka no Tachi. Would he feel threatened enough to take Ichigo's Bankai, discarding ZnT? I still think the main reason is Ichigo having Quincy power in him. If it's not like that Ichigo won't be so hax now. He has so much power having his full Shinigami powers, that he should handle SRs with Shikai easily, just like Kenpachi, but any SR could steal his allmighty Bankai, so using it would be stupid. So much for mastering his Bankai...
    Well, ichigo did seem to actually "need" bankai against kirge and he did not even seem that strong. Even in bankai ichigo could not outright finish him off. Blutz made Quilge into a punching bag for ichigo however that still does not change that ichigo could not just walk in and kill Quilge. Considering other stern riter seemed more powerful than Quilge I would think it is a tad too soon to assume ichigo does not need bankai to win. He could perhaps hold his ground but an actual volstandig or a stolen bankai would still seem like something that would require at least bankai to match.

    Also, the manga has not yet confirmed whether quincy can only steal 1 bankai at a time. Its a possible scenario but the manga has not yet alluded to it. Then again, if my theory of the medals basically being asauchi is correct then the proposed scenario would be consistent.

    We also don't really know what exactly having old man zangetsu not suppress his powers entails. If such a thing entails an actual increase in reiatsu then the scenario would perhaps come close to what you think however that is not necessarily the case. If what old man zangetsu was supressing was not reiatsu but rather ichigo's zampakuto powers then where we should see the most changes is in how his techniques are used rather than the actual amount of power he has had up until now.

  12. #27
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, ichigo did seem to actually "need" bankai against kirge and he did not even seem that strong. Even in bankai ichigo could not outright finish him off. Blutz made Quilge into a punching bag for ichigo however that still does not change that ichigo could not just walk in and kill Quilge. Considering other stern riter seemed more powerful than Quilge I would think it is a tad too soon to assume ichigo does not need bankai to win. He could perhaps hold his ground but an actual volstandig or a stolen bankai would still seem like something that would require at least bankai to match.
    Now he uses ALL his powers, and actual Shinigami powers, along with his new, real Zanpakuto, not an imitation. Add Quincy powers in the second sword (that are immune to all, I guess) and Ichigo doesn't need Bankai. His reiatsu will be probably higher, as his Shinigami side is not being supressed. I don't think Quincy reiatsu (that's what Juha is) can actually supress only abilities of shinigami reiatsu, not touching reiatsu itself.

  13. #28
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    I don't think it can be said what ichigo had previously was an imitation. Ichigo lacked an asauchi but overall zangetsu was still pretty much an inherent part of his soul even if the old man was suppressing a part of its powers. Ichigo was, for whatever reason, able to bring out his zampakuto into the world without an asauchi. Its not an issue of ichigo using fake powers earlier, its an issue of ichigo not being a proper shinigami.

    As far as ichigo not needing a bankai, I don't see how that can possibly be the case. Well, it depends on how zangetsu works nowadays however odds are the new blade he has will pretty much work like a shikai (unless he actually did fuse both swords in which case it will work completely like a shikai). Why would having 2 blades mean ichigo does not need bankai? The difference between shikai and bankai is at a bare minimum overwhelming.... Just look at shikai ichigo vs shikai byakuya and shikai ichigo vs bankai byakuya. Shikai ichigo was able to hold his own against shikai byakuya but bankai byakuya made fodder out of shikai ichigo. I don't think a second blade would change that at all.

    In this particular case we are talking about ichigo with two blades (or 1 fused blade) against stern riter with volstandig, an alternative at least equal in power to bankai. Kenpachi is one thing but ichigo has other stuff to fucus on while in combat. I also doubt the manga wil suddenly jump to shikai ichigo being equal in power to current kenpachi. It wouldn't make sense, ichigo needs enemies to fight, not just juhabach or ishida. The manga has always made the point that ichigo needs bankai to fight his enemies because his enemies are usually at least moderately powerful. The situation is likely to be the same soon enough, ichigo shows of his power but then goes to bankai. Even if ichigo did become significantly stronger I can't imagine ichigo winning a fight against a strong stern riter if he was not even able to win against volstandig quilge without bankai. Unless the idea now is that current shikai ichigo is stronger than the previous bankai ichigo. Which IMO would be absurd.

  14. #29
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    He never trained with his Zanpakuto to achieve Bankai. He trained with Zangetsu and suddenly poof, he has Bankai in under 2 days. How can THAT be true? One gets Bankai by just fighting? Shinigami has to fully undestand his Zanpakuto, beat it into submission and fight alongside with it. This thing couldn't be Bankai as there were no interaction between Ichigo and Zanpakuto at all during their training.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-12.html

    So Quincy powers WERE his main power so far. That's why I think both Bankai and Shikai are nothing else than forgeries. That's why Ichigo's bankai works just like Vollstandig. A bit of Shinigami reiatsu that couldn't be suppressed and Quincy stuff. Made into actual Bankai that wasn't a Bankai. Worked like Vollstandig, didn't look like one, because of small fraction of Shinigami powers and Juha's effort in making this Bankai look real.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-18.html

    And he said that Ichigo's sword so far was fake. And now he can step back and give him "real" Zangetsu, that is clad in fire. If Zangetsu is fire-based, like Engetsu, there's at least a way to overcome ZnT. When Royd used his sword it kinda... didn't stand the heat. And if real Zangetsu has fire-techniques, then using a fake Zangetsu with a fake Getsuga or rather raw reiatsu Quincy version of it means Ichigo was a fake until now. If Ichigo used, for example, 100% of his Quincy powers and 20% of his Shinigami powers, he's now using 100% of Shinigami powers and 100% of Quincy power. And we know how those mixing races stuff influence speed and power. If Ichigo can be so fast, that SRs think he disappears and can't follow at all, then his speed now should be too much for any SR to handle. Juha and Hasch excluded.

  15. #30
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    Re: Possible reasons why Ichigo is immune to Bankai theft

    I think you are forgetting a slight detail here. Old man zangetsu might be ichigo's quincy powers but the fact of the matter is that ultimately he and shirozangetsu are a part of the same whole.

    When has ichigo's bankai worked like a volstandig? The manga has never given the slightest hint of such a thing. Ichigo's bankai is a compression of power which is somewhat unusual but a volstandig is actually the massive absorption reishi around, not a compression per say. Old man zangetsu made the point that the one that taught ichigo the intricacies of his zampakuto was his hollow but there was still plenty the old man did teach him. When ichigo acquired his original shikai it was the old man who taught him the name of the sword. With bankai it was essentially the same thing. Getting bankai is about beating the everloving crap out of your zampakuto. At the time it was old man zangetsu who ichigo beat however we have to consider that at the time it was old man zangetsu who was in charge of ichigo's powers. He was by definition the stronger of the two zangetsus. At the time beating the old man meant beating the other zangetsu.

    Also, there is this.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...19-page-6.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...3-page-10.html

    If what you are saying is true then white zangetsu's appearances in the past can't possibly be. His appearance and powers would be unlike those of what he has as they wouldn't be his powers, they would be quincy powers. The issue here is not that ichigo was not using shinigami powers. The issue here is that old man zangetsu was suppressing ichigo's shinigami powers. Still, what ichigo manifested should by all intents and purposes be actual shinigami powers because otherwise the appearance of the other zangetsu would not make sense at all. Ichigo was using only a fraction of the shinigami powers he had but the implication of that is that he was using shinigami powers. The means by which ichigo manifested shinigami powers are still unknown to us but even that is irrelevant to the fact that ichigo was indeed using some measure of shinigami powers.

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