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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
If dominance over OMZangetsu was dominance over whole power there wouldn't be Vaizard training at all. There wouldn't be any Hollow going rampage. Want to control Hollow? Beat Hollow. Want to control Zanpakuto? Beat Zanpakuto, not Juha.
Regarding Shirosaki's appearance. When OMZ trained Ichigo he always used the "suppressed" power. When Ichigo was weak enough, the one responsible for rescuing him was Hollow/Shinigami mix. I don't really see a problem with Shirosaki using Quincy power. They are a whole. I also can't imagine Shirosaki using himself. If he is Zangetsu, using real Zangetsu would be troublesome. Ichigo finally got his real Zanpakuto, that's what his Shinigami/Hollow reiatsu should manifest as until now. There's no wonder Ichigo wasn't using his real abilities so far. Why Shirosaki looked like that? Because he couldn't use his powers, OMZ was suppressing Shinigami/Hollow powers.
Let's assume Ichigo's Zanpakuto is fire-based, as it seems like it for me, that Zanpakuto was clad in fire, and Engetsu is fire-based. If Ichigo fought with his normal Zangetsu and suddenly Shirosaki started using fire techniques out of his ass, wouldn't that be strange? Shirosaki used what Juha let him use.
Except that they do not just hold just spiritual power, they are part of the same whole which also has ichigo's inherent abilities. It was the old man who taught the actual name of his zampakuto to ichigo, that does not mean the name was fake. Zangetsu was stronger than shirosaki and the requirement to get bankai was to beat the crap out of your zampakuto. At the time beating the old man also meant beating shirosaki. At the time shirosaki existed fully within the old man.
I don't really agree with your logic about bankai and volstandig. Bankai and volstandig are at a basic level not comparable in the least, there is no reason for us to think tensa zangetsu works like a volstandig which uses reiatsu from the user rather than reishi. Volstandig in principle enhances the abilities of the user by absorbing reishi and adding it to the power reserve of the user. Bankai in principle enhances abilities by consuming more power from the user. Basically volstandig deals with directly increasing the power pool of the user while bankai deals with having techniques which consume more of the already existing power. There is no scenario in which volstandig and bankai are not extreme opposites. Ichigo's bankai works this way too. It gets the ability to make ichigo faster and his GT becomes stronger even though bankai in itself does not increase the pool of available power. If ichigo's speed was the result of TZ absorbing reishi and increasing his pool of available power then there would have been no reason for ichigo to get hurt from his speed. On the other hand if his speed is an ability then it makes sense it would hurt him. In one scenario he would be only as far as his available power allows him, in another the ability would take him beyond what his body can handle. The only way for your theory to work here would be that TS was absorbing reishi all along and the stronger getsuga and speed were the result of that absorbed power.
Vollstandig compreses energy from surroundings into user, Ichigo's Bankai compresses his power into his body. Both enhance speed and strength. All I'm saying is, Tensa Zangetsu's abilities are just like Vollstandig, but the source is different. By "working" I mean effect it has on Ichigo's body and I still can't find better word to describe it. Aftereffect? Not that the way it's working really matters to my point.
Last edited by Duniak; August 29, 2013 at 01:41 PM.
I am not sure I get your point... what control are you talking about? Are you asking why old man zangetsu did not have control over ichigo's shinigami powers?
Ichigo's bankai compresses his power into the sword, not the user. My point is that in terms of effect certain aspects merely appear similar but their origins and inner workings are distinct enough to make them entirely different things. Volstandig as far as we know does not change abilities in the least. The user simply has more power in him and thus is able to use his abilities according to the amount of power he has absorbed. Its like ichigo using his shikai GT with a given amount of power and then using it with twice the power. Exact same technique, different amount of power. With his bankai the manga has shown things to be different. His GT becomes black and according to ulquiorra it is even similar to a cero. Its more powerful but not because ichigo got more reiatsu out of bankai, the sword simply is sucking more out of him. Speed is also a special ability, it is not the result of ichigo getting more power in itself. I would think the way things work are entirely relevant to the point you are trying to make. Things appearing similar on the surface does not mean they are related at all.
Also, does manga state, that Ichigo's reiatsu is compressed ONLY into sword? No, it doesn't. But it does state Bankai is BOTH robe AND sword. Remember the "Ichigo's true form is to be clad in power"? That translation uses some strange word that I don't know, but the sense is the same, right?
And I really don't think like the way of working matters to my point, that Vollstandig and TZ have the same ability. I don't care how it is done, the result is the same, and I care only about the result. Of course Vollstandig is different, not the polar opposite if you ask me. For me it's just different source of power. You don't think Juha would try to trick Ichigo into being Shinigami if he was clad in reiatsu like a damn angel when he says Bankai... Just imagine Uryu's face when he sees that.
Last edited by Duniak; August 30, 2013 at 03:52 AM.
Shirosaki at the time only had control as the core of ichigo's powers as far as the manga told us. On top of that he was aiming to take over ichigo himself, that is something he did not have just yet.
The getsuga's being different could very well have something to do with the suppression of power old man zangetsu was involved with but I don't see how the black getsuga could be anything but a bankai technique (or maybe I don't get your point?). If the black getsuga gets like that after ichigo goes bankai and it has something to do with the suppression then logically it should be because getsuga from bankai is closer to what it is supposed to be. I would think this is confirmation that the black getsuga is 100% a proper bankai power. And still, the black getsuga is pretty much the same one shirosaki used... it being shirosaki's technique implies it is a bankai technique.
Ichigo wearing his power is not the same as it being compressed inside of him though. Its not even similar... You just tried to word that so that ichigo's bankai would fit along your idea of it being like a volstandig . I would think there is a pretty significant difference between ichigo wearing his powers and his powers being compressed within him.
The way things work is completely important. How can it not be important? In the context of what we are speaking of the way things work define what each ability is altogether. Ignoring the actual workings of something.... gets you to ideas like ichigo's bankai and volstandig being the same.
As far as volstandig and bankai being the opposite, I think the main consideration here is that kubo has already made it clear that quincy and shinigami are meant to be polar opposites. Their ideologies make the other by definition evil, inner vs external power, Black and white, close range(swordsman) vs long range(bow) and so on.... With bankai and volstandig its the same deal. Shinigami fight by drawing power from within. Thus bankai is the most extreme form of drawing power from within. Quincy fight by drawing power from the outside. Thus volstandig is the most extreme form of absorbing power.
Quincy power was the main source of power until now, I already showed that panel.
And it's a damn flame to me. Ichigo never used anything like fire.
Shirosaki did make the point that it was ichigo's throne he wanted. Ichigo was about to be taken over by his inner hollow and shirosaki made the point that if ichigo slipped up he would take him over. It was always about taking over ichigo.
In ichigo's case his hollow powers are his shinigami powers. Shirosaki holds both on his own. When white merged with ichigo it became his shinigami powers. Which is why ichigo's bankai technique is so much like a cero. Also, all that was said in the manga was the black getsuga was similar to a cero, the manga did not say it was exclusively a hollow technique. GT being similar to cero is consistent with shirosaki's origins and what he is within ichigo (shinigami and hollow powers simultaneously).
Even saying powers is compressed into a weapon does not mean a bankai can potentially be similar to volstandig. Under your logic even genryusai would be using a volstandig. His sword uses a huge amount of compressed power right? Its the exact same thing as with tensa zangetsu and yet there is not a drop of quincy within yamamoto. In this case the similarities you suggest between bankai and volstandig are merely circumstantial.
To begin with, drinking water and drinking juice or pepsi is COMPLETELY different (although it can be less different depending on how wide a context you are speaking off). Its like saying shunpo, sonido or bringer light are the same because they all have the same ultimate effect. Or like saying a cat and a lion are the same because they are both feline.... Its not the effects which define stuff, its how it works and its intricacies that define them and make them what they are.
Ichigo wasn't a shinigami in the sense that he did not have a zampakuto. Nimaiya made the point that the invariable link between shinigami and zampakuto was the asauchi, no exceptions. Quincy powers being the main source of his powers does not mean ichigo was not using his shinigami powers altogether. Zangetsu being his main source of power is not a mutually exclusive thing with ichigo using shinigami powers. Shirosaki still existed within zangetsu and ichigo was in fact using power from shirosaki. If ichigo was never using shinigami powers then there would have never been a reason for old man zangetsu to let shirosaki teach ichigo the intricacies of his zampakuto. The fact that ichigo learned from shirosaki has the direct implication that he was using both, his shinigami and hollow powers. A suppressed, incomplete, version of his shinigami powers but factual shinigami powers still.
I told you, check manga. And? No, you won't, you'll just keep on saying "all that was stated", even though I told you directly which fight you should look for. Seriously, I expected more out of you, as moderator of Bleach section.
One use of GT, Hollow starts to take over immediately.
2-3 more and Hollow takes over, as it is "truly his move".
And I wrote ONLY about effects, but you replied with EVERYTHING but effects to disprove my point. Which makes this whole debate useless, as you can't possibly prove, that TZ's effect on Ichigo is any other than Vollstandig. You try, despite knowing you can't, so you take into account everything else, which I never mentioned in the first place. Yeah, of course it's different. It freakin' looks different. It's black. In this case, reiatsu actually takes form, not just gathers. But it IS reiatsu.Ichigo WAS using part of his Shinigami powers, but they were NEVER dominant. Knowing Quincy power was dominant we can try to justify WHY Bankai is so similar, but I didn't do it, you chose to talk about it. With using all kinds of arguments, like "Bankai is compressed only into sword". I wonder if you want to discuss the topic or just disprove what I said. Some things you wrote are just ridicoulous, and even after being disproved you seem to not care, you just keep on saying more and more, over and over again. You completely fail to understand my point, so I think any further debate is pointless. I allowed myself to skip and not read the last part, as I wouldn't reply to it anyway. I don't think you wrote anything new, though.
Last edited by Duniak; August 30, 2013 at 02:26 PM.
Why would new developments imply shirosaki was only taking over the old man and not ichigo? That is completely inconsistent with what we saw altogether. Here are a few links for you.
Shirosaki made it painfully clear he was not going to have ichigo just use him. He would allow it only if ichigo was stronger than him. It is true that the part where he says "I AM ZANGETSU" takes a different meaning with the new information but just that. Ichigo's hollowification at that point was because of shirosaki and given that it was only after ichigo overcame shirosaki that his hollowification stopped. Given the new information the only thing that would be changed is that the old man allowed shirosaki to run rampant so that ichigo could grow stronger however that still does not change that shirosaki was trying to take over everything including ichigo.
"All that was stated"? I used the find function to actually search my posts with that phrase and couldn't find it. Closest thing was "all that was said". I probably should have phrased it differently to make it clearer, I did not say what you read there. To make it clearer, I meant something along the lines of "The manga only said". There is not a shred of cockiness in any of that from what I gather. Obviously it is going to sound bad if you read only those 4 words but I actually had a complete sentence there. Even just reading it "all that was said was" makes it sound entirely different. If that sounded cocky, well, I did not mean for that. Dunno what exactly about that would sound cocky though.
Anyways, wait what? how did we get to tensa zangetsu not having abilities? Even in my earlier posts I made the point that the black getsuga and the increased speed where indeed techniques. I don't really see why they wouldn't be techniques. It is true the old man was suppressing ichigo's shinigami powers however that does not mean GT and speed weren't bankai abilities, it only means they were limited versions of the abilities. We saw shirosaki go wild against ichigo and we saw him use the same moves. GT and speed come from shirosaki which makes them hollow and shinigami powers and the actual, suppressed, techniques of him. My point is that compressing power does not instantly mean volstandig. My point is that black getsuga is a bankai technique because it is shirosaki's technique.
I can't prove its anything like volstandig?well... why should I? As far as we know tensa zangetsu was a bankai (different from normal ones but bankai nonetheless) and volstandig is a stage created by quincy that is induced by a tool. True, ichigo did not have an asauchi but so far we have little to no reason to think tensa zangetsu was not shirosaki's power. If it was not then there would have been no reason for old man zangetsu to have shirosaki teach ichigo about it because it wouldn't have been shirosaki's power to begin with. Old man zangetsu made the point, what ichigo was using up to now, which I would think inlcluded his techniques, was only the fraction the old man failed to supress. That still means he was using shirosaki's power which has the inherent implication of them being shinigami powers. Its not like I am just ignoring what you say either. I might just not agree with your interpretation of certain events (or at worst I didn't get what you meant to say which can happen to anyone).
Also, there is no call for being rude at all. I have not insulted, called you names or been rude to you in any plausible way. If you don't agree with what I say then fine, I can live with that, but don't insult me or what I say. Not only there is no call whatsoever for that but even if I had been rude to you in any way it would make more sense to report me to the blues or reds than call me things.
I presumed being the quintessential blend of Shinigami & Quincy blood makes Ichigo immune to virtually anything.
1. His related to Quincy and we have heard that certain abilities dosen't work on Quincys (Opi's cage)
2. We have heard that Zangetsu (quincy juha bach look alike) has been protecting Ichigo with his Quincy powers and stole his REAL zanpakuto, so maybe his Bankai isn't even a BANKAI
3. As stated above^- Those are not Ichigo's true zanpakuto, so therefore his Bankai must have been fake
4. Its F*CKIN KUROSAKI ICHIGO- whadya expect