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View Poll Results: Who is more talented?

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  • Tōshirō Hitsugaya

    14 26.42%
  • Gin Ichimaru

    30 56.60%
  • Byakuya Kuchiki

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Thread: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

  1. #166
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    what has Ichigo or Gin done so far in the manga? so that you are calling them a genius? if you point out those, it will be easier for us to understand.
    Gin graduated in a while, killed a 3rd seat like nothing, then nothing big for some time, then almost killed Aizen.
    And are you seriously asking what Ichigo did? Read the manga. It's all in there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    In response to the main question of this thread, I'm not sure I'd even class Byakuya as a genius. He's very skilled and well trained, having received training from the likes of Yoruichi and presumably his grandfather, but I don't see anything that makes him that special to be honest. Gin and Hitsugaya are possessed of a certain insight that allowed them to grasp their own powers to an exceptional degree and with exceptional speed. Byakuya's strength comes more from work and discipline coupled with a well above average potential, which is admirable in a different way.

    Hitsugaya achieved bankai and the other skills necessary to become a captain whilst still young (although 'young' in Soul Society probably means 50 years or so), and he's clearly a hard worker. Gin graduated from the Shinigami Academy within a year, and his skills were such that he went directly into the 5th seat IIRC. Even then, he was capable of dispatching the 3rd seat with ease, so it's likely he was more than qualified for VC status. But before even joining the Academy, he was capable of killing Shinigami -
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-56757-...apter-416.html

    I think it's notable that in the captain's power charts, Gin's skills were all shown to be perfectly level. He was a fully rounded fighter, capable of using tactics focusing on all areas of Shinigami combat. And his quick insight was one of his greatest strengths. Things seemed to come more naturally to him than even Hitsugaya.

  3. #168
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    Gin graduated in a while, killed a 3rd seat like nothing, then nothing big for some time, then almost killed Aizen.
    And are you seriously asking what Ichigo did? Read the manga. It's all in there.
    since you know of Ichigo or Gin being genius; I would appreciate it very much if you point out the reason as to why we should call them genius. but note a thing; this question was directed towards Duniak who said Aizen cannot be termed as genius since he used his sword power. i would expect that you will have similar consideration towards Ichigo and Gin.
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    since you know of Ichigo or Gin being genius; I would appreciate it very much if you point out the reason as to why we should call them genius. but note a thing; this question was directed towards Duniak who said Aizen cannot be termed as genius since he used his sword power. i would expect that you will have similar consideration towards Ichigo and Gin.
    You're an idiot after all. xD KS made it easy to mischief everyone, I'm writing that for the 3rd or 4th time I think. I didn't say ANYTHING about his strength. His strength was unmatched, that I can't deny.

    Gin killed Aizen's 3rd seat without effort or getting scratched. Even VC would have problems with killing 3rd seat without single scratch. And he was just standing there, saying that he was hopeless. We haven't seen such a strong child, and it is beyond understanding how 5 y.o killed trained Shinigami at 3rd seat level. He HAD to use shunpo to do it. And if he achieved Shikai in such age it just gives me more reason to say he WAS a genius.

    Why is Ichigo a genius? Really? Read the whole manga. He achieved level far beyond Yamaji in like... 1-2 years? If he didn't use FGT he would still be at the same level, far beyond anyone else that is.

  5. #170
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You're an idiot after all. xD KS made it easy to mischief everyone, I'm writing that for the 3rd or 4th time I think. I didn't say ANYTHING about his strength. His strength was unmatched, that I can't deny.
    calling someone idiot because you are questioned by that said person, i find it offending. if you can't resist yourself from personally insulting someone, then you should learn to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Gin killed Aizen's 3rd seat without effort or getting scratched. Even VC would have problems with killing 3rd seat without single scratch. And he was just standing there, saying that he was hopeless. We haven't seen such a strong child, and it is beyond understanding how 5 y.o killed trained Shinigami at 3rd seat level. He HAD to use shunpo to do it. And if he achieved Shikai in such age it just gives me more reason to say he WAS a genius.
    so Gin is strong because he learned to defeat stronger opponent and became a shinigami at such young age. very well then. at the end, Gin was very much unable to do anything against Aizen. so all his genius work accounted for nothing against Aizen. that is one more reason to call Aizen superior than Gin.

    get your point right. you say Gin is genius because he defeated strong enemies at young age. then you say Aizen isn't genius. but it was Aizen who proved himself stronger than Gin.

    OR. do you think someone can only be genius at young age only? if that's not the case, if we look at final outcome, Aizen is better than Gin in every aspect. and one more thing, what do you know about young Aizen? If you call Gin a genius, in the same light, Aizen is also a genius.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Why is Ichigo a genius? Really? Read the whole manga. He achieved level far beyond Yamaji in like... 1-2 years? If he didn't use FGT he would still be at the same level, far beyond anyone else that is.
    Ichigo didn't invent any of his improvement. there was always someone else to show him the way. he got Shikai, Urahara helped him. he achieved Bankai quickly, but there was Shiohin to watch over forced materialization. he got control over his hollow power to some degree, but there was whole bunch of Vizards to show him the way. he learned FGT, but there was his father who told him how to achieve that. Ichigo is good at what he learns and also very strong, but in no way he is a genius.

    and another thing, you say Aizen is not genius because he used his sword; yet you say Ichigo is genius because he used his sword. how much contradictory it can be?
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  6. #171
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    so Gin is strong because he learned to defeat stronger opponent and became a shinigami at such young age. very well then. at the end, Gin was very much unable to do anything against Aizen. so all his genius work accounted for nothing against Aizen. that is one more reason to call Aizen superior than Gin.

    get your point right. you say Gin is genius because he defeated strong enemies at young age. then you say Aizen isn't genius. but it was Aizen who proved himself stronger than Gin.

    OR. do you think someone can only be genius at young age only? if that's not the case, if we look at final outcome, Aizen is better than Gin in every aspect. and one more thing, what do you know about young Aizen? If you call Gin a genius, in the same light, Aizen is also a genius.
    Aizen is superior to Gin. That's a fact. I will not try to counter that.
    But you're right. When you refer to someone as genius, you are at the same time referring to their prodigious status also. That's, at the very least, what this topic's debate is about. Just check the candidates and you'll see that their common point is that they were the youngest active captains at that point in the plot. So, no, I'm not considering Aizen as a genius.

    And about your final paragraph..
    I'm not a big fan of Ichigo (check my signature if you'd), but to say that he had received to learn about his powers is a rather irrelevant point. Everybody gets trained to some certain point. It's not that Gin or Hitsugaya were able to release their Shikai as untrained ordinary kids. In no way they did get the same treatment as noble Byakuya or strongly supported Ichigo, but they were also trained. It's just that their powers developed more naturally over time unlike Byakuya and Ichigo, who were rather forced to receive immense amount of training for their own respective reasons; one to become the next head of Kuchiki clan, and the other to get stronger in an emergency situation.
    But I do agree that using KS's power does not change anything about his status. If we were to get a look on young Aizen, we'd have a clear picture about him, too.

    I'm summing up my point once again. This whole thread, since it's beginning, has nothing related to the power levels of characters. If you can call Aizen a genius, just because he's superior to a genius, Gin, in terms of power, that would automatically mean that you will also call Captain-Commander a genius, who, by Aizen's own admittance, was superior to Aizen himself.
    It would be pointless to turn this topic into a debate of power levels, too. We already have a ranking of the captains thread for that.

    That said, I respect your personal opinion and clearly do not see any reason to use inappropriate words while exchanging personal opinions with each other. It'd be better if Duniak controlled his temperament a bit more. I don't think he had an intention to direct anything offensive, though. A bit of an overly casual approach, perhaps.

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  8. #172
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    calling someone idiot because you are questioned by that said person, i find it offending. if you can't resist yourself from personally insulting someone, then you should learn to.
    Oh, you feel offended. Quite frankly, I just can't. You're misunderstanding, putting words I didn't say in my mouth (can you even say it in english?), you're just dumb and you won't accept any argument, you're saying stupid things because you can't agree with me. That said, this discussion is pointless pretty much. You're questioning my point with saying stupid thing about not taking in account their swords. There's power-based swords, kido-based swords, and senses-brainfucking-based ones, like KS or Shnji's Shikai (who knows what his bankai can do!)

    This discussion is going on for far too long so please forgive me, that I'm impulsive.




    Quote Quote:
    so Gin is strong because he learned to defeat stronger opponent and became a shinigami at such young age. very well then. at the end, Gin was very much unable to do anything against Aizen. so all his genius work accounted for nothing against Aizen. that is one more reason to call Aizen superior than Gin.

    get your point right. you say Gin is genius because he defeated strong enemies at young age. then you say Aizen isn't genius. but it was Aizen who proved himself stronger than Gin.

    OR. do you think someone can only be genius at young age only? if that's not the case, if we look at final outcome, Aizen is better than Gin in every aspect. and one more thing, what do you know about young Aizen? If you call Gin a genius, in the same light, Aizen is also a genius.
    I never said Aizen wasn't a genius in terms of strength. I said, he wasn't such a genius because KS made it easy, and with such ability and the same purpose, even Renji would use it effectively (or to some extent).

    I'm currently in best high school in my town. There are those hard-working girls, lazy, but intelligent boys. They're doing pretty well. They're all smart, but there are those geniuses. People who can do ANYTHING in a matter of seconds. There is one with almost PERFECT photographic memory. He looks at a page, he can tell you exactly what was there. After 15 seconds he can learn whole page by heart. You watched that film "Limitless"? He's similar. There's that guy who can count anything and knows number Pi to 500 places after coma. Those are geniuses. You can't understand how they do it, even they can't. They are just born with it.


    Quote Quote:
    Ichigo didn't invent any of his improvement. there was always someone else to show him the way. he got Shikai, Urahara helped him. he achieved Bankai quickly, but there was Shiohin to watch over forced materialization. he got control over his hollow power to some degree, but there was whole bunch of Vizards to show him the way. he learned FGT, but there was his father who told him how to achieve that. Ichigo is good at what he learns and also very strong, but in no way he is a genius.
    Shinigami Academy, Squad members, Squad Captain. There's always someone who can show you the way.

    Quote Quote:
    and another thing, you say Aizen is not genius because he used his sword; yet you say Ichigo is genius because he used his sword. how much contradictory it can be?
    Oh, did I? I think I said, that KS made it easy for him to troll everyone. I said, that he is not a genius because it didn't require genius to troll everyone with KS. He was just smart. His intelligence+KS made him genius. Without KS his intelligence wouldn't be considered genius-like. Ichigo is genius because of his hard-work and motivation. Despite consequences he keeps going because he wants to protect his close ones. It gives him energy to go further, achieve more, get stronger. The only one so far who could do forced materialization was Urahara, who was considered genius. (In terms of strength and intelligence, but in his case his intelligence boosts his strength, because of his zanpakuto and ability to create new attacks in instant). He didn't need Vaizards to look out for him. He would just kill several thousand people before he woke up. Isshin just made it possible to train in Dangai so he could get more time. Everything he did there was he himself, without any help. He had much more time, but he had to do everything the others had to/will do.

  9. #173
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    And about your final paragraph..
    I'm not a big fan of Ichigo (check my signature if you'd), but to say that he had received to learn about his powers is a rather irrelevant point. Everybody gets trained to some certain point. It's not that Gin or Hitsugaya were able to release their Shikai as untrained ordinary kids. In no way they did get the same treatment as noble Byakuya or strongly supported Ichigo, but they were also trained. It's just that their powers developed more naturally over time unlike Byakuya and Ichigo, who were rather forced to receive immense amount of training for their own respective reasons; one to become the next head of Kuchiki clan, and the other to get stronger in an emergency situation.
    But I do agree that using KS's power does not change anything about his status. If we were to get a look on young Aizen, we'd have a clear picture about him, too.
    the point is, Ichigo got to know what he needs to do. about Byakuya or Hitsuyaga; we have seen them improving their techniques. or in Byakuya's case, we have seen him being able to analyze situation precisely. same can be said for Urahara or Ishida too. Ichigo has yet to show anything like those. we saw him getting power ups, but he was always told the way out. we are yet to see him improving a single technique by himself or turn a bad situation to good using strategical thinking.

    Ichigo is a good learner, hardworker. but for me, being genius isn't limited to only those two. one needs to think ahead of himself and others. that's why I can call Gin, Hitsuyaga, Byakuya or Urahara a genius. and for the same reason I wouldn't call Ichigo or Kenpachi a genius.
    Last edited by darkprince0521; October 15, 2012 at 12:18 PM.
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  11. #174
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    I think the main misunderstanding here is exactly what does "genius" count as? One may view as a genius someone who can get to victory using every means at his disposal(be it weapon,tool,knowledge/etc),or one may view as a genius someone who,without receiving proper training,just by training himself,without anyoutside help,rose in power quickly or someone who simply has natural talent and can improve with ease.


    For me,genius is someone who can think and have power at the same time.In that respect,I consider Aizen,Gin,Urahara,Hitsugaya geniuses,as all of them have power(it's useless to include power-debates in this thread),because they have shown both feats of power and both feats of intelligence(actually,did Hitsu even show any kind of intelligence?).

    I wouldn't include Ichigo because it may turn out that he was able to achieve Shikai,Bankai,etc because the fact that he's a unique being,and for me I can't call a genius someone who has in his blood/family everything needed to achieve Shikai/Bankai/etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak
    Everything he did there was he himself, without any help.
    I am sorry,but I have to disagree here.If he hadn't got Urahara's help,he wouldn't have regained his Shinigami powers.If Urahara hadn't trained with him so roughly,he wouldn't have achieved Shikai.If it weren't for Urahara's forced materialization thingy,he would have achieved Bankai after a long time,and Rukia would have been executed.If it weren't for his dad to hold the the currents in Dangai and tell him about FGT,Ichigo would have rushed to fight Aizen in the current state he was at the time.


    edit: I'll later explain my concept of "genius",as it I believe I have to express in detail that concept.
    Last edited by g0dzax; October 15, 2012 at 01:24 PM.

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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    There's no single person who can do anything (realistic anything) without help. Help from the zan, at least.
    We have seen Ichi being helped to achieve a crazy high level, but that's because he's the protagonist. The fact that we didn't see Byakuya training under/with someone a lot, is only because we didn't see much of Byakuya's younger days (taking Byakuya as a good example, the same works for pretty much anyone).
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by g0dzax View Post
    I am sorry,but I have to disagree here.If he hadn't got Urahara's help,he wouldn't have regained his Shinigami powers.If Urahara hadn't trained with him so roughly,he wouldn't have achieved Shikai.If it weren't for Urahara's forced materialization thingy,he would have achieved Bankai after a long time,and Rukia would have been executed.If it weren't for his dad to hold the the currents in Dangai and tell him about FGT,Ichigo would have rushed to fight Aizen in the current state he was at the time.
    I was talking about Dangai. He didn't get any help. Isshin gave him only time, but he had to achieve that state himself. He told him about FGT just like others talk about Bankai in Shinigami Academy. He trained alone.

  14. #177
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    There's no single person who can do anything (realistic anything) without help. Help from the zan, at least.
    We have seen Ichi being helped to achieve a crazy high level, but that's because he's the protagonist. The fact that we didn't see Byakuya training under/with someone a lot, is only because we didn't see much of Byakuya's younger days (taking Byakuya as a good example, the same works for pretty much anyone).
    being genius isn't only about becoming stronger. there should be some other factors; the ability to understand, ability to think and ability to plan ahead. so far, Ichigo has shown nothing of those except being strong. Kenpachi is insanely strong too, but would you call him a genius only because of that?
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You're an idiot after all. xD KS made it easy to mischief everyone, I'm writing that for the 3rd or 4th time I think. I didn't say ANYTHING about his strength. His strength was unmatched, that I can't deny.

    Gin killed Aizen's 3rd seat without effort or getting scratched. Even VC would have problems with killing 3rd seat without single scratch. And he was just standing there, saying that he was hopeless. We haven't seen such a strong child, and it is beyond understanding how 5 y.o killed trained Shinigami at 3rd seat level. He HAD to use shunpo to do it. And if he achieved Shikai in such age it just gives me more reason to say he WAS a genius.

    Why is Ichigo a genius? Really? Read the whole manga. He achieved level far beyond Yamaji in like... 1-2 years? If he didn't use FGT he would still be at the same level, far beyond anyone else that is.
    Why are you attacking everyone on disagreement of opinion? Your opinions aren't facts, please don't pass them as such. Ichigo developed a lot due to forceful rigorous training programs created by Urahara, Yoroichi, and his own father at the end. He never achieved anything on his own. Shinji helped with with his hollow powers. How can such an individual be termed as a stand out genius?
    Last edited by shahdan; October 15, 2012 at 02:35 PM.

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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Why are you attacking everyone on disagreement of opinion? Your opinions aren't facts, please don't pass them as such. Ichigo development a lot due to forceful rigorous training programs created by Urahara, Yoroichi, and his own father at the end. He never achieved anything on his own. Shinji helped with with his hollow powers. How can such an individual be termed as a stand out genius?
    Everyone? I attacked one person, because y'all are just tiring me and I feel like I'm talking to a wall. Where did I pass my "opinion" as fact? I'll repeat myself. You really think that there is a single person alive (Yamaji is dead, kaboom) who figured out everything on his own? In Dangai Isshin gave Ichigo time. He didn't give him force materialization or anything. And as I said before. Shinji didn't do anything to help Ichigo gain control of his Hollow. Fighting with him underground doesn't mean helping with his training. He did it all in his inner world, fighting his hollow. He could have been locked up or kill 2000 people, but in the end he'll gain control.

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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Everyone? I attacked one person, because y'all are just tiring me and I feel like I'm talking to a wall. Where did I pass my "opinion" as fact? I'll repeat myself. You really think that there is a single person alive (Yamaji is dead, kaboom) who figured out everything on his own? In Dangai Isshin gave Ichigo time. He didn't give him force materialization or anything. And as I said before. Shinji didn't do anything to help Ichigo gain control of his Hollow. Fighting with him underground doesn't mean helping with his training. He did it all in his inner world, fighting his hollow. He could have been locked up or kill 2000 people, but in the end he'll gain control.
    Dude, I brushed your 'am I talking to a dog or cat' remark aside. So that includes me as well. You are not talking to a wall, but your opinions are not being agreed upon. Why? Because we have ours.

    Shinji helped him understand everything about controlling his hallow. How can you not acknowledge that?

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