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  • Tōshirō Hitsugaya

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Thread: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

  1. #211
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Checked it for confirmation. Aaroniero couldn't possibly use any of Kaien's abilities. His zanpakuto was disintegrated.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-589-10...apter-135.html
    That wasn't a Bankai, just his unreleased sword, so easy to regenerate
    Also, Aaroniero used Nejibana, that was clearly shown in the manga

  2. #212
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    That wasn't a Bankai, just his unreleased sword, so easy to regenerate
    Also, Aaroniero used Nejibana, that was clearly shown in the manga
    Yeah, the third correction about that matter. Apologies
    Their argument was that Aaroniero would have used Kaien's Bankai provided he had one, and apparently, either he didn't use it on purpose or Kaien didn't have a Bankai to begin with.

  3. #213
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Um, now that you mention it, it confused me a bit, for sure.
    Then, it's not a total disintegration. Probably that possessing Hollow absorbed his Zanpakuto's spirit, as well. It now makes sense that Kaien apparently didn't have a Bankai.

    Though I don't like it when a genius was unable to achieve Bankai in so much time.
    110 years ago, Byakuya was a teenager kid and around 50 years ago, he was promoted. In about 60 years of training, he achieved Bankai and he wasn't considered to be a genius, since Gin was the successor genius to Kaien.
    I don't like this, hm.
    Well, the thing is that in SS, even being a 3rd seat is considered a remarkable achievement. It's easy to forget, since we've had so many Captain-class fighters take precedence over the last arc, but VC's are supposed to be exceptionally strong in the scheme of things. So only reaching that level of power is still to Kaien's credit.

    But the difference between him and other "geniuses" is that they all seemed to work hard to fulfil their potential. Hitsugaya comes across as a hard worker in general, and Gin always had the motivation of one day slaying Aizen. Kaien on the other hand seemed content with his position and was hesitant to even accept the role of VC. It's possible that he could have been on his way to achieving Bankai, but just wasn't particularly driven to do so. Maybe he had a "slow and steady" approach to things.

    Being a genius doesn't necessarily mean having outrageously high potential though, just a keen ability to grasp what potential you have. Being VC level still puts Kaien in the top tiers of Shinigami power. But I suppose we'll never know how much he could have grown given the time.

    ---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    Hitsugaya also has a long sword btw.
    Hitsugaya has more of a short body than a long sword, haha.

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  5. #214
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    I think that 'genuis' has much less to do with achieving bankai than reiatsu/spiritual pressure. In his battle with Ichigo, when Ichigo first goes bankai, Byakuya muses to himself that 'even among the noble clans, whose members tend to have greater spiritual pressure, only one in a generation will achieve bankai. If the spiritual pressure isn't there, no bankai, so that's the most primary need for bankai.

    Genuis doesn't really come second either. Look at Ichigo. He is not a genius, but a young man with extreme motivation/determination to protect his loved ones. He didn't train like crazy the way he did and achieve bankai because he was a genuis, but because of his high spiritual pressure, determination, and because Urahara and Yoruichi used their unique methods to speed up his development. So, it seems to me that high spiritual pressure, extreme motivation and training are the keys to bankai. If any are not there, no bankai.

    Ichigo's motivation is to protect
    Renji's is to surpass the man who 'stole' Rukia (although after their battle, he more looked up to Byakuya as a mentor)
    Ikkaku's is to be worthy to fight and die alongside Zaraki
    Byakuya's is to protect the pride of his clan
    Gin's was to kill Aizen

    All of these had high spiritual pressure, extreme motivation and someone to train them.

  6. #215
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    But Ichigo is a completely different case. The training he underwent wasn't there for any of other characters mentioned. So, I wouldn't include it as a key to Bankai.
    Also, I'd certainly not think someone who puts his pride over his life can be that easy going with his training. Every character has a certain ambition and Kaien should also have had his. Then again, he turned down an offer to become a vice-captain (offered or possibly had the chance to become one and wasn't interested, not quite sure here), so, that's a bit of bold of me to say he really was ambitious.

    Reiatsu looks like the most legitimate difference maker, but I don't know. Why did they call someone a genius that doesn't have standout reiatsu in the first place?
    That's why I don't find this sensible within the entirety of the story.

  7. #216
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    I wasn't suggesting that the others had the same training that Ichigo had, only that they had some guidance. I think we can agree that left to his own devices, Ichigo would not have achieved bankai. Without Ikakku, Renji wouldn't have had the guidance he needed either. So SOMEONE or several someones had to provide guidance for the person of power and ambition to achieve bankai. Thus, again, spiritual pressure, extreme motivation and some kind of guidance are all necessary for bankai. Genius is secondary. That was my point.

  8. #217
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Posts moved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    I wasn't suggesting that the others had the same training that Ichigo had, only that they had some guidance. I think we can agree that left to his own devices, Ichigo would not have achieved bankai. Without Ikakku, Renji wouldn't have had the guidance he needed either. So SOMEONE or several someones had to provide guidance for the person of power and ambition to achieve bankai. Thus, again, spiritual pressure, extreme motivation and some kind of guidance are all necessary for bankai. Genius is secondary. That was my point.
    My point is, since Kaien was with Ukitake 110 years ago, and he was his vice-captain around 50 around years ago, with Ukitake's mentorship in 60 years, he should have utilized his power in such a huge amount of time for a captain.
    Why else can he be considered a genius, I wonder.

  9. #218
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    My point is, since Kaien was with Ukitake 110 years ago, and he was his vice-captain around 50 around years ago, with Ukitake's mentorship in 60 years, he should have utilized his power in such a huge amount of time for a captain.
    Why else can he be considered a genius, I wonder.
    Mhm, true, I guess.
    Maybe it was just that he didn't care that much about achieving bankai or whatever, he seemed like the sort of carefree guy. Or he didn't want to get any stronger than VC because they'd want him to be a captain, and that's too much responsibility. Heck, maybe he'd be made a captain against his own will if he had a bankai!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

  10. #219
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    By the way, do we exactly know Kaien didn't have a Bankai or is it just an assumption, I don't remember it well.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...0-page-17.html

    Well... Ukitake wouldn't want him to become captain if he didn't have one. He had, but he didn't use it. And he didn't want to become a captain, because he didn't think, that this position would suit him. ;P

  11. #220
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...0-page-17.html

    Well... Ukitake wouldn't want him to become captain if he didn't have one. He had, but he didn't use it. And he didn't want to become a captain, because he didn't think, that this position would suit him. ;P
    that doesn't prove anything. he may have Bankai though.
    Naruto Forever


  12. #221
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    that doesn't prove anything. he may have Bankai though.
    Well, if you consider Ukitake an idiot, who would make VC WITHOUT BANKAI a captain then yes, it doesn't prove anything. You need panel with "OOOOH, KAIEN YOU HAVE BANKAI? HOW NICE" ?

  13. #222
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Well, if you consider Ukitake an idiot, who would make VC WITHOUT BANKAI a captain then yes, it doesn't prove anything. You need panel with "OOOOH, KAIEN YOU HAVE BANKAI? HOW NICE" ?
    Well, there isn't a necessity for someone to have Bankai to become a captain. Six fellow captains' recommendation and approval from three of the rest is enough. That panel proves that Ukitake believes Kaien has the required skills to become a captain. It doesn't explicitly prove he had a Bankai at that point.
    Then again, someone without Bankai probably wouldn't be worthy of such praise, so, it's a pretty strong indication.

  14. #223
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Well, there isn't a necessity for someone to have Bankai to become a captain. Six fellow captains' recommendation and approval from three of the rest is enough. That panel proves that Ukitake believes Kaien has the required skills to become a captain. It doesn't explicitly prove he had a Bankai at that point.
    Then again, someone without Bankai probably wouldn't be worthy of such praise, so, it's a pretty strong indication.
    Well, it was clearly stated, that Kenpachi is only captain without a bankai. I'm pretty sure, that he is the only one in history. Kaien with Shikai would be as strong as... Byakuya? Well, he had to be a monster. Ukitake isn't an idiot. If he considered him captain material, he really was one.

  15. #224
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Kaien was above Byakuya and Soi fon at that point. He might be at Renji or Ikkaku's level at the time. Rukia is a vice captain, but she wasn't able to keep up with Arr's copy of Kaien (which I doubt is as strong as the original). If he were alive, he might become stronger than the young captains.

  16. #225
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    Kaien was above Byakuya and Soi fon at that point. He might be at Renji or Ikkaku's level at the time. Rukia is a vice captain, but she wasn't able to keep up with Arr's copy of Kaien (which I doubt is as strong as the original). If he were alive, he might become stronger than the young captains.
    Arr ate 33.650 hollows IIRC. His power wasn't Kaien's strength. I think he was stronger than Kaien. And yes, Kaien was above Byakuya and SoiFon because he was like 5 times older... -.-
    Last edited by Duniak; December 17, 2012 at 12:39 PM.

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