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View Poll Results: Who is more talented?

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53. You may not vote on this poll
  • Tōshirō Hitsugaya

    14 26.42%
  • Gin Ichimaru

    30 56.60%
  • Byakuya Kuchiki

    9 16.98%
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Thread: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

  1. #46
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Thing is Toshiro has time to grow, and lets be honest he is always training to better protect his comrades, as with renji.... the thing is Gin and Byakuya seemed to have just stopped as they were comfortable with the level they had
    Spoiler show

  2. #47
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by daman246 View Post
    lol Im sure Gin will Give Kyouraku a run for his Money. Were talking about the Guy who played with ichigo in his Hollow Form which Injured Aizen. And he was not even using his true Bankai Ability which is Hax. Im sure Gin will Pwn every captain besides Yama/Aizen/Kyouraku and Maybe Unahana But im sure he will kill Ukitake.

    Gin is the only Guy in Bleach who could have killed Aizen if it was not for the Hyogoku
    And if Gin and Toushiro were to FIght in FGT Gin would have Obliterated Toushiro lol. Toushiro had Hard time fighting the 3rd Espada which in the end he didnt defeat. Aizen K.O her in secs, And after Ichigo Gained his New Hollow Mask he was already stronger than the 3rd espada. and Gin played around with him like a teddy bear.

    GIn>>>Toushiro Stop being Toushiro Fan boys/Girls The kid sucks his much worst then ichigo. Jumps Straight forward into a trap and gets everyone beat.

    This discussion isn't about whether Gin would defeat Hitsugaya. This thread addresses their natural talent. If you reference Gin's abilities during the battle against Aizen, it would have to be compared to Hitsugaya at least 65 years from now. Hitsugaya would have more than doubled his time as a Shinigami by then. Your comparing Gin and Hitsugaya at two different stages of development. Of course with more than twice as much experience and time Gin is going to exceed Hitsugaya.


    Quote Originally Posted by deadsuit View Post
    No one better claim Toshiro is more talented than Gin or Byakuya. I respect your opinion if you do but........ Come on..
    One could argue that Gin was the more naturally talented individual, there is some potential argument for that. I just don't believe that there is any strong evidence that would provide significant support for one over the other. It is going to come down to interpretation, and speculation, that is likely to be influenced mostly by character preference. On the other hand, there has never been anything to suggest that Byakuya was a prodigy or natural talent that would be considered far beyond expectations. People seem satisfied to say that Byakuya could defeat Hitsugaya in battle, as though that has much relevance to the discussion. You would have to compare Byakuya to Hitsugaya at a comparable age. And their is nothing to suggest that Byakuya was anywhere near Hitsugaya's level. We've had mention of both Hitsugaya's and Gin's prodigious ability, there has been no mention of Byakuya. Any possible superiority he has in battle over Hitsugaya is a reflection of the fact that he has been a Shinigami for far more than twice the amount of time than has Hitsugaya.


    Quote Originally Posted by devstauk View Post
    Thing is Toshiro has time to grow, and lets be honest he is always training to better protect his comrades, as with renji.... the thing is Gin and Byakuya seemed to have just stopped as they were comfortable with the level they had
    What evidence is there to suggest that Byakuya and Gin just decided to stick around at the same level? It's not as though they had reached the top of the Shinigami world. There were still quite a few Captains that far exceeded their ability. And there is nothing in the personalities of either that would suggest that they would even consider something of the sort. Gin was on a century long mission to kill Aizen, I seriously doubt he just decided to pack it in.

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  4. #48
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Zaraki Kenpachi vs Toshiro Hitsugaya

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    I am sorry if my statement sounds contradictory, that was not my intention.
    I am simply suggesting that while Toshiro is in fact a prodigy, I consider Ishida a potentially greater one.

    Toshiro had 100s of years to train in other to obtain the level he is at atm while Ishida only needs roughly 16 years to achieve a maybe greater results.
    Hitsugaya has been a captain for 45 years or less. He doesn't have 100s of years of experience. He decided to become a Shinigami after Hinamori was in her fifth year. Hinamori was in set with Rukia, who was found by Byakuya, probably in he first year at the Academy, approximately 6 years after Byakuya wed, which was 55 years prior to the manga. That means that the earliest Hitsugaya could've decided to become a Shinigami was approximately 45 years ago, give or take a year.

  5. #49
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member RandomShikafan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Quote:
    Compared to Hitsugaya, Gin at a young age seemed to have done more.
    You're seriously putting graduating the academy and defeating a third seat ahead of Bankai, oneshotting Momo, defeating Shawlong, Luppi, surviving the T hird Espada.

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  7. #50
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomShikafan View Post
    You're seriously putting graduating the academy and defeating a third seat ahead of Bankai, oneshotting Momo, defeating Shawlong, Luppi, surviving the T hird Espada.
    Seriously? You believe that Toushiro got Bankai before Gin? And even if he did, does that make him better? More of a prodigy? Gin never had to show what he was capable of because he wanted to be under Aizen and learn everything he had to about him. When Aizen wanted him to be a captain Gin became a captain, thats what i believe anyway and that makes a lot of sense.

    Look at Aizen, the dude had the power to basically beat half of SS but he remained a seated officer/vice captain etc for a very long time. Being captain or attaining/showing your bankai does not mean much.

    1 shotting Momo? Lol? Defeating someone who was not even an Espada? And beating someone who Grimmjow shat on? He survived Halibell because he had 2 Vaizards helping him out. After Hallibel released, Hitsugaya could not really dent her. He froze her and thats about it.

    Gin on the other hand killed Aizen. Thats a bigger accomplishment than what Hitsugaya has done.. Unless he kills Bucky

    ---------- Post added at 06:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 AM ----------

    @ Impossibility

    That is not neccessarily the case. Just because Hitsugaya will have that much time does not mean he will be THAT accomplished. Like i said before, we do not know what Gin did all those years in terms of training, what we do know is that he spent all that time under and studying Aizen. Toushiro has nothing of the sorts to worry about.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

  8. #51
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    What evidence is there to suggest that Byakuya and Gin just decided to stick around at the same level? It's not as though they had reached the top of the Shinigami world. There were still quite a few Captains that far exceeded their ability. And there is nothing in the personalities of either that would suggest that they would even consider something of the sort. Gin was on a century long mission to kill Aizen, I seriously doubt he just decided to pack it in.
    Absolutely true. We don't have any evidence to back such a theory up. Yet, if anything is needed to be speculated, I'd probably say they should still be training. One has to remember that, prodigy or not, Gin and Byakuya were the younger captains of SS. In fact, they're only older than Hitsugaya, so, to think that they haven't been training all that time is not understandable.
    Even Hitsugaya continued to train in the past 17 months to become stronger, because he had someone to protect. Same argument is valid for Gin and Byakuya, as well. If you closely look at each captain-leave the seniors out, we know so little about them overall-, you can see a strong reasoning behind their Captaincy. Perhaps only Kenpachi is an exception with his unrealistically laid-back attitude, but knowing that he know has more control in his Shikai compared to pre-time skip, even Kenpachi must have been training.

    To get a better understanding of Byakuya, however, we probably need to get some information about clan matters. I mean we should have an idea on why Ginrei Kuchiki, Byakuya's grandfather and previous head of Kuchiki clan, stepped down. And is there a limitation to who can be next head? The clan is probably big enough to have some more distant Kuchiki relatives in the mix as well. Was Byakuya trained to become a captain just because he was the Head's grandson? Or did they see some sort of potential in him and decided his fate back then? I don't think we could find a solid answer to any of these questions. At least, my mind doesn't remember seeing anything that could be considered a related piece of information.

  9. #52
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member RandomShikafan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Seriously? You believe that Toushiro got Bankai before Gin?
    ...No?

    Quote Quote:
    Gin never had to show what he was capable of because he wanted to be under Aizen and learn everything he had to about him. When Aizen wanted him to be a captain Gin became a captain, thats what i believe anyway and that makes a lot of sense.
    Yeah, i agree. That does not equal doing more then Toushiro at a young age.

    Quote Quote:
    1 shotting Momo? Lol? Defeating someone who was not even an Espada? And beating someone who Grimmjow shat on? He survived Halibell because he had 2 Vaizards helping him out. After Hallibel released, Hitsugaya could not really dent her. He froze her and thats about it.
    It's worlds better then defeating a third seat. Again a say at a young age. What did Gin do at a young age that blew you away that makes it clear he was always midtier captain level even when he was Toushiros age. I don't get it.

    Quote Quote:
    Gin on the other hand killed Aizen. Thats a bigger accomplishment than what Hitsugaya has done.. Unless he kills Bucky
    He wasn't young anymore. Not Toushiro young by a looooong shot.
    Last edited by RandomShikafan; July 31, 2012 at 09:18 AM.

  10. #53
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomShikafan View Post
    It's worlds better then defeating a third seat. Again a say at a young age. What did Gin do at a young age that blew you away that makes it clear he was always midtier captain level even when he was Toushiros age. I don't get it.
    One shotting Momo is an accomplishment? Dear me. Im very certain Gin would have trolled all over Momo back them too. Im basing my estimation of Gin through how his story was told, he kept himself in check inorder to understand and follow Aizen. Aizen would not keep someone who would not be of use to him. Gin like ive said a few times (though you do agree) could have for all we know been a captain shortly after if he wanted to.

    Hitsugaya even at this age, struggled against someone who was not even an Espada and got horribly toyed with by Gin. Im not sure what other way to say it, it would actually help if we knew what age they both are. And more about Gin. Its obvious we are going to see more about Hitsugaya and his new found accomplishment, but i do not believe that even if you gave Hitsugaya 100 years could he be able to kill someone like Aizen or even put up such a great facade. Gin IMO has shown that he truly deserves the praise of being a prodigy and a genius. He atleast acted like one.

    Quote Quote:
    He wasn't young anymore. Not Toushiro young by a looooong shot
    I was speaking in terms of the future. My crystal ball has spoken! I doubt Toushiro would have done anything worthy of note even if he was Gins age.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

  11. #54
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SaitoSpike's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    its not 'he beat a third seat at a young age' he beat a third seat right out of the academy if you wanna talk about things we know about Toshiro and things we dont know about Gin, what could Toshiro do right out of the academy....we dont know so does it mean he couldnt beat a third seat out of the academy, not necessarily but does that also mean that Gin couldnt have defeated all those ppl you named? even before he was captain....it is very likely that he could

    so comparing defeating momo, those arrancars etc.... at an age where he was clearly older than Gin was when he defeated a 3rd seat out of the academy doesnt really make for much of a comparison

    if u guys are gonna keep comparing a roughly 14 year old Captain Toshiro to a 9 year old (and yes i say Gin was roughly 9 because he's got the (bloody) baby face of Yachiru when shown in the TBTP) out of the academy Gin then yeah i guess its only fgair ppl bring up the fact he beat Aizen or that Toshiro was losing to one espada while Gin was holding his own against Ichigo in Bankai+mask

    its incredibly pointless to compare them at different age groups, if we can't compare them at the same age because there's missing data its a pointless argument imo
    Last edited by SaitoSpike; July 31, 2012 at 11:39 AM.

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  12. #55
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Soi fon: I don't know why people tend to ignore her. She looks quite young to me, possibly around Byakuya and Gin's age. She's also head of the feng clan (lower noble house)

    110 years ago, Gins was the 3rd seat of squad 5. While Byakuya was still a sissy boy who often got teased by Yoruichi. Soi fon was Yoruichi body guard, which made her of similar status to a seated officer (might be wrong). So at the point where the vizard incident occur, Byakuya was not comparable to the other 2. I assume that they all became captains at the same time: Gin replaces Rose, Byakuya replaces Ginrei, and Soi fon replaces Yoruichi.

    After 110 years, Byakuya still got outmaneuvered by Yoruichi even when she was carrying Inchigo and unreleased Zangetsu (quite heavy I assume) while Soi fon has already surpassed her in terms of speed (talk about talent). Also, she was able to develop shunko on her own, pretty impressive huh?

    Does ppl underate her because of the opponent she fought? She did pretty well against Yoruichi/Vega/Baragan. She's also one of those captains who don't need to rely on Bankai and still pose a great threat.

  13. #56
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    Soi fon: I don't know why people tend to ignore her. She looks quite young to me, possibly around Byakuya and Gin's age. She's also head of the feng clan (lower noble house)

    110 years ago, Gins was the 3rd seat of squad 5. While Byakuya was still a sissy boy who often got teased by Yoruichi. Soi fon was Yoruichi body guard, which made her of similar status to a seated officer (might be wrong). So at the point where the vizard incident occur, Byakuya was not comparable to the other 2. I assume that they all became captains at the same time: Gin replaces Rose, Byakuya replaces Ginrei, and Soi fon replaces Yoruichi.

    After 110 years, Byakuya still got outmaneuvered by Yoruichi even when she was carrying Inchigo and unreleased Zangetsu (quite heavy I assume) while Soi fon has already surpassed her in terms of speed (talk about talent). Also, she was able to develop shunko on her own, pretty impressive huh?

    Does ppl underate her because of the opponent she fought? She did pretty well against Yoruichi/Vega/Baragan. She's also one of those captains who don't need to rely on Bankai and still pose a great threat.
    Soi Fon's timeline remains unknown. However, it is likely that she was around before Byakuya & Gin arrived on the scene. She was already Head of the Guard by the time Gin had graduated from the Academy. Gin and Byakuya became Captains at approximately the same time, long after the Vizards departed. The Vizards left SS over a century prior to the manga, Byakuya became Captain 49 years or less prior to the manga, at least half a century between. The time of Soi Fon's ascent to the Captaincy is unknown. Because these things remain unknown, it's more difficult to judge the extent of her natural talent.

  14. #57
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by SaitoSpike View Post
    its not 'he beat a third seat at a young age' he beat a third seat right out of the academy if you wanna talk about things we know about Toshiro and things we dont know about Gin, what could Toshiro do right out of the academy....we dont know so does it mean he couldnt beat a third seat out of the academy, not necessarily but does that also mean that Gin couldnt have defeated all those ppl you named? even before he was captain....it is very likely that he could

    so comparing defeating momo, those arrancars etc.... at an age where he was clearly older than Gin was when he defeated a 3rd seat out of the academy doesnt really make for much of a comparison

    if u guys are gonna keep comparing a roughly 14 year old Captain Toshiro to a 9 year old (and yes i say Gin was roughly 9 because he's got the (bloody) baby face of Yachiru when shown in the TBTP) out of the academy Gin then yeah i guess its only fgair ppl bring up the fact he beat Aizen or that Toshiro was losing to one espada while Gin was holding his own against Ichigo in Bankai+mask

    its incredibly pointless to compare them at different age groups, if we can't compare them at the same age because there's missing data its a pointless argument imo
    We're on the same line more or less. Gin defeating third seat was almost at a time where he looked like no older than a little kid at all. And yet, we haven't seen Hitsugaya doing anything around at that age. Just like we saw little of Gin in the time passed between in the last age or so, making the comparison incredibly tough to keep within the logic boundaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    Soi fon: I don't know why people tend to ignore her. She looks quite young to me, possibly around Byakuya and Gin's age. She's also head of the feng clan (lower noble house)

    110 years ago, Gins was the 3rd seat of squad 5. While Byakuya was still a sissy boy who often got teased by Yoruichi. Soi fon was Yoruichi body guard, which made her of similar status to a seated officer (might be wrong). So at the point where the vizard incident occur, Byakuya was not comparable to the other 2. I assume that they all became captains at the same time: Gin replaces Rose, Byakuya replaces Ginrei, and Soi fon replaces Yoruichi.

    After 110 years, Byakuya still got outmaneuvered by Yoruichi even when she was carrying Inchigo and unreleased Zangetsu (quite heavy I assume) while Soi fon has already surpassed her in terms of speed (talk about talent). Also, she was able to develop shunko on her own, pretty impressive huh?

    Does ppl underate her because of the opponent she fought? She did pretty well against Yoruichi/Vega/Baragan. She's also one of those captains who don't need to rely on Bankai and still pose a great threat.
    Well, Soi Fon is no different than Byakuya for me. Beginning from a very little age, she was trained to be Yoruichi's guardian, so it's not as if you could comprehend her natural talent so easily, because natural talent is tough to pick out from the whole capabilities of one mixed with disciplined training.
    So, I tend to treat her the way I did Byakuya. Just leave her out of conversation, this is the best solution.
    But I do admire her abilities. She's pretty strong, more than many give credit for, sure.

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  16. #58
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member RandomShikafan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by SaitoSpike View Post
    if u guys are gonna keep comparing a roughly 14 year old Captain Toshiro to a 9 year old (and yes i say Gin was roughly 9 because he's got the (bloody) baby face of Yachiru when shown in the TBTP) out of the academy Gin then yeah i guess its only fgair ppl bring up the fact he beat Aizen or that Toshiro was losing to one espada while Gin was holding his own against Ichigo in Bankai+mask
    If we're going by appearance then you can check any databook right now. Toushiro is drawn inconsistently, just like Rukia but he is shorter then Karin and Yuzu were before the timeskip.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SaitoSpike's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomShikafan View Post
    If we're going by appearance then you can check any databook right now. Toushiro is drawn inconsistently, just like Rukia but he is shorter then Karin and Yuzu were before the timeskip.
    we ARENT going by looks, its a fact that current Captain toshiro is roughly 14-15, we dont know how old Gin was back then (tho i say he looks no older than 10) if you compare his face to Toshiro's current face anything else about Toshiro previously is unknown in terms of age so how can you compare what was clearly NOT a 14 year old Gin in the TBTP arc vs a Captain 14-15 year old Hitsu?

    thats my whole point.....4-5 years is ALOT when we're talkin prodigies is it not?

    ---------- Post added at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

    i suppose if you think these 2 are the same age

    http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...itsugaya_1.png

    http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...g_Ichimaru.png

    http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__..._shiro-cha.jpg

    i would be more inclined to believe that the last two are more similar in age than the first 2...but like i said to each his own opinion....its not really Gin's fault that he wasnt a midget......if we went by Toshiro's heigh then he might as well be 7 for a few hundred years....
    Last edited by SaitoSpike; July 31, 2012 at 10:05 PM.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    We shouldn't assumes their ages based on their looks but rather from their growth rate. For example, Hiyori looks about the same age as Hitsugaya but we all know that she has reached adulthood for a long time because her look stopped changing even after 100 years. Whereas Byakuya and Gin changed in the same way that a normal person grows from 10-20 years old. Which is Why people might assume that they are at similar age. Similar to Hitsugaya who looks changed from that of a toddler into an elementary school student (.

    Some character who I believe is similar in age due to their growth in 110 years:
    Gin
    Nanao
    Hisagi

    Those are the ones that changed in the same way that a normal person grows from 10-20 years old. Byakuya was more like a teenager at that time, so is Soi fon. I have no idea about Hitsugaya, but he looks like 4-5 years old when Matsumoto met him.

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