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View Poll Results: Who is more talented?

Voters
53. You may not vote on this poll
  • Tōshirō Hitsugaya

    14 26.42%
  • Gin Ichimaru

    30 56.60%
  • Byakuya Kuchiki

    9 16.98%
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Thread: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

  1. #106
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Maybe it was that they became captains 1000 yrs after graduating.
    It'd be good to confirm some points in SS's history, namely:
    1. when Yama became a shinigami
    2. when Yama became CC
    3. when senior captains became captains
    add more as much as you wish...
    but all in a new thread, I guess - this is getting off-topic.

    Also, keep in mind that shinigami probably existed before the academy, and the only known one out of them so far is Yama (and maybe 1st division?).
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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member RandomShikafan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    I admit i might have misinterpret it, actually he said that the 4 of them were the last of the captains from the past century. But still, had they became captains the moment the Gotei 13 formed, why didn't he say they were the last of the original 13 captains a millenia ago. I guess it is safe to assume that they were captains for at least 200 years but weren't the original 13 captains when the gotei 13 was form. This will still support my point that even after 1000 years after graduate, they still couldn't become captains.

    When did it say that back then only royal guards can deal with gillian? I thought that genryusai was at his prime 1000 years ago, and he alone could have killed an infinite ammount of gillian.
    Royal guards were first brought up when Rukia, Ichigo and Ishida first encountered a Menos Grande, Kubo explained that rukia only got it from old textbooks, but they were true as some point in the Academy's history.

    Quote Quote:
    Also, keep in mind that shinigami probably existed before the academy, and the only known one out of them so far is Yama (and maybe 1st division?).
    And Unohana.

  3. #108
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Gin>Toshiro>Byakuya

    Byakuya Kuchiki hasn't really shown me anything to think he can really compete against Gin and Toshiro in Natural Talents and Genius.

  4. #109
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomShikafan View Post
    And Unohana.
    It's only known that she's been captain longer than Ukitaki and Kyōraku, not that she was a captain before the academy was founded. And yeah that those two have feared her true power/character, indicating a monster of a shinigami Imo. I just want to see her go all out fighting and not caring about healing some weak shinigami, only once go all out and put some respect/fear into us the readers.
    Last edited by Schabrak; August 03, 2012 at 08:54 PM.
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  5. #110
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SaitoSpike's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    jus wanna say that Shunsui and Ukitake being captains for only 200 years is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard....u wouldnt need a source to realize thats completely off lol

    ---------- Post added August 04, 2012 at 12:07 AM ---------- Previous post was August 03, 2012 at 11:54 PM ----------

    by the way to anyone who wants some help with Hitsu future, go read Shunsui's Bio...essentially it has one key point

    "although being told by Captain-Commander Yamamoto that he was able to see the truth and was wise for his age."

    So we also know that Shunsui is also the person who said this

    "given another 100 years or so Toshiro will likely surpass even me"

    the first one is a clear indication that amongst even the Captains Shunsui is someone who's best suited to assess ppl's potential or the truth about them....so it gives his prediction of Toshiro even more push in that sense.....so really to anyone who expects Toshiro to reach ridiculous levels in less than these said 100 years....its highly unlikely

    it seems we have the best opinion we could get in such a discussion...in Shunsui

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  6. #111
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by SaitoSpike View Post
    jus wanna say that Shunsui and Ukitake being captains for only 200 years is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard....u wouldnt need a source to realize thats completely off lol
    Sure they've been captains for more than 200 years, but not the original 13 captains. Which means that even after graduating for 1000 years, they wasn't able to become captains for some reasons.

    If talented shinigamis like that took more than a thousand years to be as strong as they're now, Hitsu will probably need 500 years (after graduate) or so to be at the same level. However, there can be situations in a normal shinigami life that boost their strength enormously:
    -Optaining shikai
    -Strengthen the bonds, master the usage of shikai
    -Materialize zanpaktou spirit
    -Obtaining bankai
    -10 years of perfecting bankai

    OK, so the last time we see Hitsu, he was at the stage of an incomplete bankai. Byakuya states that it takes about 10 years to fully master Bankai. But given that Hitsu is a genius, he might be able to complete it in the timeskip (he has already have Bankai for a while). So, from what we've know. Unless Hitsu can go vizard, there's no other major power boost that he can get after perfecting his bankai.

    Perfecting his Bankai will make him a lot stronger, maybe he'll even surpass Shunsui with shikai. But that's it. Shunsui still have a yet to shown Bankai, and Hitsu has no other major power boost. The best he can do is to perfect all other areas of combat. At his peak, he'll probably surpass Shunsui and might even be equal to Yamo. But 100 years is not enough to mature and peak. It is fast at first, but once his Bankai is complete, it gets alot harder to be stronger.

    "although being told by Captain-Commander Yamamoto that he was able to see the truth and was wise for his age." I don't doubt his talent, but I doubt the extent of how he is able to see the truth. If he's that good, why couldn't he notice that something was off with Aizen/Gin/Tousen 110 years ago?
    Last edited by River_Capulet; August 04, 2012 at 02:59 AM.

  7. #112
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    It's only known that she's been captain longer than Ukitaki and Kyōraku, not that she was a captain before the academy was founded. And yeah that those two have feared her true power/character, indicating a monster of a shinigami Imo. I just want to see her go all out fighting and not caring about healing some weak shinigami, only once go all out and put some respect/fear into us the readers.
    River_Capulet didn't say Captain, he said shinigami. Kyoraku and Ukitake were the first graduates to become Captains, so for her to be their sempai she was at least a Shinigami before the Academy was founded. Or alternatively entered the Gotei 13 Squad 11 style, I suppose.

  8. #113
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    "although being told by Captain-Commander Yamamoto that he was able to see the truth and was wise for his age." I don't doubt his talent, but I doubt the extent of how he is able to see the truth. If he's that good, why couldn't he notice that something was off with Aizen/Gin/Tousen 110 years ago?
    Maybe he did. But, considering what was going on (someone was so obviously corrupt if they exiled Urahara for trying to save people without listening to him), it was best for him to go with the flow until there's enough chaos to act, that being Ichi's rescue mission.
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  9. #114
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    OK enough with the senior captains stuff, back to topic.

    I think that Byakuya can also be considered as a prodigy. In turn back the pendulum arc (chap 105) Ukitake said that Gin was roughly Byakuya's age (might be a bit younger). We also know that they became captains at roughly the same time. The only reason why Byakuya was mentioned as a prodigy is that because he didn't attend the academy (noble) so he couldn't have graduated early like Kaien/Gin/Hitsu.

    Note that I'm not talking about strength, I'm focusing on how they became captains at the same age and same time.

  10. #115
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SaitoSpike's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    Sure they've been captains for more than 200 years, but not the original 13 captains. Which means that even after graduating for 1000 years, they wasn't able to become captains for some reasons.
    isnt this just all speculation? i mean we dont know any of this for a fact other than the fact that they were the first to graduate from the academy....isnt the rest all your opinion?

    i mean ok so we also know that they've been captains (Shunsui, Ukitake and Unohana) for at least over 100 years (thats all it says) and yet we know that the academy was founded 2100 years ago...you're really going to tell me you feel like it took them 1000 years to become captains?

    you can't be serious.....i cant contradict you because it says AT LEAST 100 years but saying at least a hundred years only means that....it doesnt mean under 1000 it doesnt mean 250 only means that....you cant assume they were unable to become captains for any specific amount of time because we simply dont know

    so this "Which means that even after graduating for 1000 years, they wasn't able to become captains for some reasons."

    is simply YOUR opinion

    ---------- Post added at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post

    "although being told by Captain-Commander Yamamoto that he was able to see the truth and was wise for his age." I don't doubt his talent, but I doubt the extent of how he is able to see the truth. If he's that good, why couldn't he notice that something was off with Aizen/Gin/Tousen 110 years ago?
    lol you say that like its just anyone who noticed....all the ppl who've noticed somewhat were all geniuses.....Urahara created half of the HG, Gin was a known genius who also already had the advantage of having seen Aizen beforehand....which is why we already kno that Aizena nd Urahara are simply on another level in terms of intellect...if a Prodigy comes by every hundred years then someone with that level of intellect probably doest come by for 500+years......and see what happened when there were 2 in a short time frame....they created something that almost destoyed the entire realm (Urhara and Aizen)

    basically you shouldnt talk like there's a handful of ppl who noticed something was up with Aizen....Unohana only noticed because she is the foremost expert in the human anatomy and that was because of Aizen's fake body not because she simply was on to him does that lessen her in any way...of course not

    ---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:15 PM ----------

    oh and by the way he did notice something but he's the kind of guy who'd rather not be bothered

    "During a night-walk he met up some squad members that were on guard and congratulated them of keeping watch on the Seireitei. He also noticed lieutenant Sōsuke Aizen taking a night walk, muttering to himself that he was maybe over-thinking things before leaving." - this is in the manga as well but u can find that quote in the 110 years ago section of his bio

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v36/c315.9/

    ---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 PM ----------

    anyways back on topic, but without details from kubo himself you're only speculating when it comes to the Senior Captains....perhaps we will find out more about them soon enough, we're bound to since the Royal Guard is supposed to appear as well
    Last edited by SaitoSpike; August 04, 2012 at 03:31 PM.

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  11. #116
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    @SaitoSpike
    Yes, all the people that found about their betrayal were geniuses, but isn't there a big plot hole here? I mean, how come nobody suspects Aizen after he was accused by Urahara to be the man behind all those actions? I'd at least keep an eye on him at any case.
    But it's not about Kyouraku personally, not really. Without a hint, Aizen's deception was tough to reveal, so, we can't make a statement out of that.

    On the other hand, can we exactly visualize the timeline? Maybe the academy was set up, Kyouraku and Ukitake graduated, and before the 13 Court Squads were established, there was some blank time. Isn't such a thing possible?

    @River_Capulet
    So, taking this 10 years of obtaining Bankai and mastering it conception into consideration, where would Renji fit in? Not that I'm suggesting he's a genius at any case, but didn't he get a new Bankai after the time skip? I thought that new Bankai concept was rather getting the complete mastery of his own. Then, this perfection stage may not be as long as one can suggest, but battle experience continues to pile up for not decades, but centuries. That's why Hitsugaya should be unable to surpass a senior captain so easily.

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  13. #117
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    @saito:
    The academy was found 2100 years ago, but the Gotei 13 was only formed 1000 years ago. 110 years ago, Shunsui said that only Yamo, him, Uki, and Uno were that last captains from the last century. Had they became the original captains 1000 years ago, he would have said that they were that last of the original captains a milenia ago. Why say 100 instead of 200/1000??

    We also have to consider that the RG are promoted from captains of the Gotei 13, it's not hard to believe that 12 of the original captains were strong enough to be part of the RG (remember Hikifune?) which will also make sense why Shunsui and Uki couldn't become the first of the captains.

    He saw Aizen that night, and immediately the morning after, a bunch of captains and lieutenants were exiled from SS. Maybe it's his nature to simplify things, but something big like that would have made him believe more in his intuitions. After 110 years, again Aizen was involved (faked his death). He should have been able to connect some of this together if he was sooo good at judging people (at least Hitsu was suspecting Gin). I'll repeat myself: I don't doubt his talent, I doubt the extent of how good it is. This will simply gives us a margin of error for his statement about Hitsu

    @Haku:
    Renji's Bankai has a new form, but we're not sure if it's is its fullest potential no? Maybe this is just like senkei of senbonzakura, and there's still hakuteiken. In addition, growth rate in war time is different from growth rate in peace time. Renji had encountered captains level opponent continually, which greatly contributes to his growth. This will also reinforce my point of the length that Hitsu will take to reach his peak. If there's a war in every few years in SS, he might be at Shunsui's level in 100 years. But if SS is peaceful for a 1000 years, it gets alot harder for Hitsu to grow after perfecting his Bankai.
    Last edited by River_Capulet; August 04, 2012 at 11:28 PM.

  14. #118
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    The academy was found 2100 years ago, but the Gotei 13 was only formed 1000 years ago. 110 years ago, Shunsui said that only Yamo, him, Uki, and Uno were that last captains from the last century. Had they became the original captains 1000 years ago, he would have said that they were that last of the original captains a milenia ago. Why say 100 instead of 200/1000??
    I think what Shunsui meant was none of the captains besides those four had been a captain longer than 100 years. If he merely said they were original captains, we wouldn't know how long captains like Yoruichi or Shinji had been holding their positions.

    Back to topic, I think Byakuya can be considered having extraordinary talent as well. He's the head of a noble clan and IIRC there has never been someone in the clan stronger than him. Kaien was considered a genius as well but he failed to be a captain during the time period Byakuya and Gin grew up and became captains, I suppose genius status is more about the pace you realize your full potential than having a potential surpassing everybody else. That said, it's not out of the realm of possibilities that Hitsugaya's power can surpass that of Shunsui's in 100 years but I guess he'll find it hard to improve himself at one point. There's a possibility that if he can't reach Yamamoto's level in 400-500 years, he can't reach it at all.

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  16. #119
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    Kaien was considered a genius as well but he failed to be a captain during the time period Byakuya and Gin grew up and became captains, I suppose genius status is more about the pace you realize your full potential than having a potential surpassing everybody el
    Honestly, being a captain is not compulsory. We have cases in which some very talented or powerful people have refrained from being captains. Kaien didnt even want to become lieutenant. And as far as we knew, he probably didnt even try to become a captain.
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  18. #120
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SaitoSpike's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    @saito:
    The academy was found 2100 years ago, but the Gotei 13 was only formed 1000 years ago. 110 years ago, Shunsui said that only Yamo, him, Uki, and Uno were that last captains from the last century. Had they became the original captains 1000 years ago, he would have said that they were that last of the original captains a milenia ago. Why say 100 instead of 200/1000??
    "but without details from kubo himself you're only speculating when it comes to the Senior Captains"

    i mean where are you getting these facts from? the only info you get from the G13 is this

    "The history of the Gotei 13 is somewhat unknown. All that is currently known is that it was founded by the current Captain-Commander Genryūsai Shigekuni Yamamoto."

    and i dont remember it being explained with as much detail as you seem to know in the manga....i have ti once again point out that the only fact we know is that yes the academy was founded 2100 years ago......and also

    "At some point Yamamoto founded the Gotei 13 and approximately one thousand years ago he became its Captain-Commander." so then what does this tell us?

    well it tells us its definetly NOT Shunsui and co's faults that they werent captains in the 1000 years prior.....since even Yama wasnt CC yet if it is true as you said that the G13 is roughly 1000 years old then it still leaves us with them becoming captains somewhere in between the founding and 200 years ago....still vague tho we only know when he became CC, not how old the G13 itself is

    on that note Yama also failed to kill the Vandereich leader 1000 years ago so i wonder if it coincides with the creation of the G13

    and on THAT note lol i think the fact that we know the Vandereich King was around and mature enough in power and age over 1000 years ago, despite not looking as old as Yama-ji himself is an indication of just how potentially old Shunsui and Unohana etc....could really be

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    He saw Aizen that night, and immediately the morning after, a bunch of captains and lieutenants were exiled from SS. Maybe it's his nature to simplify things, but something big like that would have made him believe more in his intuitions. After 110 years, again Aizen was involved (faked his death). He should have been able to connect some of this together if he was sooo good at judging people (at least Hitsu was suspecting Gin). I'll repeat myself: I don't doubt his talent, I doubt the extent of how good it is. This will simply gives us a margin of error for his statement about Hitsu
    as Hakuteiken pointed out

    "but isn't there a big plot hole here? I mean, how come nobody suspects Aizen after he was accused by Urahara to be the man behind all those actions? I'd at least keep an eye on him at any case.
    But it's not about Kyouraku personally, not really."

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    We also have to consider that the RG are promoted from captains of the Gotei 13, it's not hard to believe that 12 of the original captains were strong enough to be part of the RG (remember Hikifune?) which will also make sense why Shunsui and Uki couldn't become the first of the captains.
    and we really dont know what is the requirement to become a member of the RG, and i have a feeling its not all about power....


    ---------- Post added at 01:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Honestly, being a captain is not compulsory. We have cases in which some very talented or powerful people have refrained from being captains. Kaien didnt even want to become lieutenant. And as far as we knew, he probably didnt even try to become a captain.
    yeah thats what i was saying on like page 2 lol, i completely agree and when you think about it all the old badass lookin seated officers in the 1st division seem like they could probably be captains too, and probably they have the experience to be one.....but some ppl just dont have the interest or simply dont become one for various reasons, i gotta agree its not the greatest measuring stick for power
    Last edited by SaitoSpike; August 05, 2012 at 03:01 PM.

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