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View Poll Results: Who is more talented?

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  • Tōshirō Hitsugaya

    14 26.42%
  • Gin Ichimaru

    30 56.60%
  • Byakuya Kuchiki

    9 16.98%
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Thread: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

  1. #31
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And as I've already said, comparing Hitsugaya's and Gin's talents through their battles isn't particularly useful in determining the extent of their natural prodigious ability.
    Quote Quote:
    But the simple reality is that the time to captaincy is the only thing that we can reasonably compare them on.
    How is that not a legit reason yet you believe comparing theyre time as captains is? Battles have more to say about ones abilities than a rank.

    Like i said, Gin could have simply not wanted to be a captain and continued to serve under Aizen until the time was right. An example would be Ikkaku, he was recommended for a Captain seat yet he refused to because he served under Kenpachi (though the relationships are not similar, same rule applies).


    Quote Quote:
    As I already pointed out, Gin had at least 65 years more training and experience on Hitsugaya at the time of the battle, Gin had more than twice the amount of time as a Shinigami as Hitsugaya.
    Your saying it as if Gin definitely trained all those "65" years. Serving more time again does not essentially make you stronger or give you time to develop much further though.

    Quote Quote:
    Even if Gin was vastly superior at the time, that isn't anywhere near close enough to argue that Gin being superior, in terms of this debate, is 'common sense'. You would have to compare Hitsugaya's ability at least 65 years from now to Gin's level, or compare Gin's ability at Hitsugaya's current age.
    Thats what i basically compared, I doubt that Hitsugaya would have been on the same level as Gin had they both been shinigamis at the same time.


    Quote Quote:
    The reality is there is very little about Gin's ability other than that he was able to defeat a 3rd seat, and was able to graduate from the Academy in just a year.
    Compared to Hitsugaya, Gin at a young age seemed to have done more.

    Quote Quote:
    None of those things would clearly put him over Hitsugaya. It could be argued that Gin was superior, but it is by no means a common sense determination.
    To me it seems like common sense given what the manga has shown us of what Gin was capable of at a very young age. Enough for Aizen to take note of him and have him under his wing.

    Quote Quote:
    Determining Gin's skills at an age comparable to Hitsugaya's is something that requires lots of speculation, and a few educated guesses. Some are going to end up putting Hitsugaya above, some are going to favour Gin. Pretending as though this is clear cut is just wishful thinking.
    True but evidence of what Gin was capable of is there in the manga.

    Quote Quote:
    If you read my comment, you'd see that my statement about Gin hiding his abilties from SS was something that I considered legitimate as an argument for Gin's superiority, even if it falls short of the mark. Byakuya could've waited for an open seat. There is absolutely nothing that suggests that Byakuya was a prodigy, everything that has been put forth by the manga would suggest that Hitsugaya's natural ability far exceeds that of Byakuya.
    I dont think i said Byakuya was a prodigy... Did i?

    Quote Quote:
    And I don't understand the point of your final sentence. How did Kenpachi make his way into this discussion?
    It was just an example of how prodigy does not equate power nor does length of captaincy.

    I wonder what age Gin was before he died..

    Quote Originally Posted by SaitoSpike View Post
    are u also forgetting that Ichigo (the weaker version was able to fight on par with Kenpachi...tho not a loss still needed to be carried off) despite all that Byakuya survived a Bankai Ichigo and even a mask....and was still even able to block Rukia from getting speared...so in the past i dunno how you could say he was so far above...in the present its up for debate cuz neither has shown their full power thus far
    Byakuya fought an Ichigo who was completely inexperienced with his bankai to the point where his own bones were crushing. Even Shiro said it. Ichigo lost most his speed etc as a result.

    Byakuya fought a highly resolved Ichigo with his own Bankai. Kenpachi fought a highly resolved Ichigo with a pseudo shikai.

    And for the rest of your post, i guess il have to agree to disagree


    Quote Originally Posted by SaitoSpike View Post
    i completely disagree and you can look at 90% of Shonen manga out there its a fact if you're the main character all things fall nicely in your hands i dont think i need to give you examples but im sure everyone can name 10...Goku, Naruto, Luffy, Yusuke Hirameshi

    of course if ur the main character ur 'special' thats an undeniable fact imo, the key after that from the mangaka's side is making it believable then u bring in things like, Ichigo's dad already being a captain class shinigami, or naruto's dad aactually being the 4th.....etc...
    Most of those guys gained power and all that because of pure hard work. Naruto, Luffy and Goku were not prodigies. The only "special" one was Naruto.

    Goku was not the only super saiyan, there was Broly and Vegeta. He only had the potential to be better then them because he had a cause. And he trained endlessly. He did not have royal blood or nothing was ever attributed to him being a prodigy.

    Naruto aswell only started utilizing his "special" attributes much later. He was born with a high chakra capacity which again is present in some other people too. His father being the fourth Hokage meant absolutely nothing. His fathers accomplishment were not his nor did they ever protect him. Infact they would have potentially made him a target at a much younger age had people known his heritage. Nothing special about being the 4ths son.

    Luffy, seriously!? Whats special about him? Yes, he is the main character which means he will most likely not permenently die, but he has lost battles and been on the verge of death from fighting an opponent he could not actually surpass. Even in the war, aside from temporarily saving Ace, he wasnt much use.

    Those three examples are in no way prodigies or geniuses. They are just hard workers! (this is going off topic, if we are to discuss this we should do it elsewhere :P)
    Last edited by jaymizzo; July 30, 2012 at 06:24 PM.
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  2. #32
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SaitoSpike's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    in this case i said special, not prodigy so i dunno why ur involving that word, i think you missunderstand me here i said these characters are special BECAUSE they are the main character...so after you give them incredible power boost after power boost your job as a mangaka is giving us a reason as to why that is

    Goku was special and its clear....even amongst saiyans his power boost after near death was ridiculous (wouldnt that make him special...simply because he IS the main character and there's no real reason why) if u wanna talk about working 3 times as hard and not getting to that level you have Vegeta as exhibit A....sure he got there in GT but yeah has to work 5 times as hard...and you're tellin me Goku isnt special?

    nobody was born with Naruto like Chakra in his generation, u throw in the Kyubi, and that he's the son of the 4th and that makes him a special character....i dunno how that can be argued

    Luffy is a D. the entire anime has centered around the one Piece and ppl with the name D.....hence special once again....we can do this all day

    special does not equate Prodigy....agreed about the off topic tho, but yes i was pointing out WHY Ichigo does not belong in this talk about prodigies or geniuses....because he is the main character and its a fact that they are a SPECIAL exception 90% of the time
    Last edited by SaitoSpike; July 30, 2012 at 06:39 PM.

    Only one thing stirs my emotion. Aku. Soku. Zan. For the sake of my justice alone!

  3. #33
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by SaitoSpike View Post
    plus its not really fair right Kenpachi has full access to his power at all times...we didnt even see Byakuya's growth in bankai since it was sealed.....so currently its one sided to say he's stronger than Byakuya....in the past i dont see a reason to believe one would have had a clear edge over the other,
    That's pretty much my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Byakuya fought an Ichigo who was completely inexperienced with his bankai to the point where his own bones were crushing. Even Shiro said it. Ichigo lost most his speed etc as a result.

    Byakuya fought a highly resolved Ichigo with his own Bankai. Kenpachi fought a highly resolved Ichigo with a pseudo shikai.
    And just whose fault is it that Kenpachi was fighting with a pseudo-shikai as you call it? It is his own.
    It's Kenpachi's completely brain-lacking Shinigami skills that got him defeated.
    And Ichigo being inexperienced against Byakuya?? So, was he ultra-experienced against Kenpachi, barely knowing anything about Zangetsu?

  4. #34
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    And just whose fault is it that Kenpachi was fighting with a pseudo-shikai as you call it? It is his own.
    It's Kenpachi's completely brain-lacking Shinigami skills that got him defeated.
    And Ichigo being inexperienced against Byakuya?? So, was he ultra-experienced against Kenpachi, barely knowing anything about Zangetsu?
    I never blamed anyone for that... Just that saying that Byakuya fought Ichigo in his bankai makes him equal or stronger than Zaraki is... bleh

    Ichigo used one of his strongest Getsugas against Zaraki, fully powered... Goku+Gohan style! And Ichigo against Byakuya started dominating Ichigo because of what Ichigos own Bankai was doing to him... Before... Byakuya could barely follow Ichigo.


    Quote Originally Posted by SaitoSpike View Post
    in this case i said special, not prodigy so i dunno why ur involving that word, i think you missunderstand me here i said these characters are special BECAUSE they are the main character...so after you give them incredible power boost after power boost your job as a mangaka is giving us a reason as to why that is

    Goku was special and its clear....even amongst saiyans his power boost after near death was ridiculous (wouldnt that make him special...simply because he IS the main character and there's no real reason why) if u wanna talk about working 3 times as hard and not getting to that level you have Vegeta as exhibit A....sure he got there in GT but yeah has to work 5 times as hard...and you're tellin me Goku isnt special?

    nobody was born with Naruto like Chakra in his generation, u throw in the Kyubi, and that he's the son of the 4th and that makes him a special character....i dunno how that can be argued

    Luffy is a D. the entire anime has centered around the one Piece and ppl with the name D.....hence special once again....we can do this all day

    special does not equate Prodigy....agreed about the off topic tho, but yes i was pointing out WHY Ichigo does not belong in this talk about prodigies or geniuses....because he is the main character and its a fact that they are a SPECIAL exception 90% of the time
    @ The Vegeta and Goku example does not really work, Goku had things he wanted to protect whole heartedly and never disciminated. He was pure of heart and we know that its an essential shounen rule that characters become stronger if they have things they want to protect.

    Not in his generation sure, but there have been people with just as much chakra. Him having the Kyuubi sort of made him special because he housed the strongest Bijuu, though he was still a common Jinchuuriki, not exactly special. And being the son of the fourth Hokage does not make Naruto special. I do not understand why that makes him special. He did not inherit any special attributes from Minato nor does him being his son make him in peoples eyes seem special.

    Luffy is not the only character with the name D. Even those without the "D" name were more special than him.

    You know what, i think we have a completely different understanding on the special thing. Lets just leave it at that.
    Last edited by jaymizzo; July 30, 2012 at 06:48 PM.
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  5. #35
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    I never blamed anyone for that... Just that saying that Byakuya fought Ichigo in his bankai makes him equal or stronger than Zaraki is... bleh

    Ichigo used one of his strongest Getsugas against Zaraki, fully powered... Goku+Gohan style! And Ichigo against Byakuya started dominating Ichigo because of what Ichigos own Bankai was doing to him... Before... Byakuya could barely follow Ichigo.
    No, it certainly doesn't. But you stated that Byakuya can't get into battles against close range fighters, so the argument was born.
    Also, at that time Kenpachi had already taken off his eye-patch, so, went full power and couldn't beat Ichigo, who had trained a total of ten days with Urahara up to that moment. And don't even get started with the speed thing. It's already a fact that Byakuya is the faster out of two (just because Yoruichi still beats him doesn't make Byakuya slow, you know), so, it's probably like you're shooting yourself in the foot.

    Anyway, I've got a feeling that we should move on with this debate, as the thread is about the prodigious talents rather than captain power comparisons. I believe there was a separated thread for that also.

    Night, everyone!

  6. #36
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SaitoSpike's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post

    You know what, i think we have a completely different understanding on the special thing. Lets just leave it at that.
    lol yes my meaning here isnt that they have to have special attributes.....they are the main character which in itself makes them the special exception....all these other ppl you're naming in the comparisons most of them arent from this generation where the story is being told...Luffy is the D who its focussed on right now, Many ppl who also have ppl they wanna protect and who work hard at it dont achieve the main character's levels necessarily, despite what you said about Naruto, there is no precedence for having his level of chakra, hosting the most powerful bijuu and being the son of a kage....and as far as we've seen many ppl who were related to KAges end up quite powerful.....but if u wanna look at the other argument about him not being the only one with a bijuu or being the son of this person or that person....then u prove my point...how come those ppl dont achieve what the main characters do?

    because they arent the main character


    lol

    Only one thing stirs my emotion. Aku. Soku. Zan. For the sake of my justice alone!

  7. #37
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by SaitoSpike View Post
    lol yes my meaning here isnt that they have to have special attributes.....they are the main character which in itself makes them the special exception....all these other ppl you're naming in the comparisons most of them arent from this generation where the story is being told...Luffy is the D who its focussed on right now, Many ppl who also have ppl they wanna protect and who work hard at it dont achieve the main character's levels necessarily, despite what you said about Naruto, there is no precedence for having his level of chakra, hosting the most powerful bijuu and being the son of a kage....and as far as we've seen many ppl who were related to KAges end up quite powerful.....but if u wanna look at the other argument about him not being the only one with a bijuu or being the son of this person or that person....then u prove my point...how come those ppl dont achieve what the main characters do?

    because they arent the main character


    lol
    There was Kushina and Mito. Kisame has comparable Chakra to Naruto, The Third Raikage, Jiraiya, Nagato, Madara etc all have the same attribute Naruto has.. Insane Chakra.

    Tsunade has huge chakra, grand daughter of possibly the strongest man to ever live (outside Rikudou and his two sons), possibly the last Senju.. Yet she is not special lol Being related to the 4th makes no difference to who or what Naruto is.

    Those people do not go out of theyre way like Naruto has. Naruto is the only character who has obssessed about Sasuke, not even his loving brother Itachi obssessed as much and he sacrificed most of his life for him.

    The difference between the main character and normal characters is that the main character is actively engaged in the battles or quests. They go out of theyre way to do or prove something. And actually, Madara, Hashirama, Jiraiya and a bunch of people have accomplished more than what Naruto has.

    Shanks, Teach, Whitebeard, Roger, Law, etc have all accomplished more than what Luffy has.

    Again, this could go on forever, we have completely different perspectives on what special means in this.

    I will respect your opinion
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  8. #38
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SaitoSpike's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    but back to Gin Toshiro and Byakuya....wouldnt it be interesting if we all got what we wanted, one last fight out of each of em, maybe that would help a lil bit too

    Only one thing stirs my emotion. Aku. Soku. Zan. For the sake of my justice alone!

  9. #39
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by SaitoSpike View Post
    but back to Gin Toshiro and Byakuya....wouldnt it be interesting if we all got what we wanted, one last fight out of each of em, maybe that would help a lil bit too
    No it actually would not solve anything. The fact that they are all different ages would arise arguments like ~if Hitsugaya/Byakuya were as old as Gin, they would have done better... etc

    The only way IMO is to show a backstory or a brief showing of what they could all do at a specific age.
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  10. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SaitoSpike's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    "despite what you said about Naruto, there is no precedence for having his level of chakra, hosting the most powerful bijuu and being the son of a kage"

    meaning all in one....yes i get that different ppl have this or that...but usually the main characters have a WHOLE lot of extra simply because they are the main character, most of the time they are built up about how hard they work to get there but then when u come to encounter enemies that are far above what simply hard work can achieve in comes the main character specials

    each one of these characters is often VERY VERY lucky, unaturally lucky....thats a good example...like how lucky Ichigo kept getting during the invasion of SS (the convenient order of enemies)...ya see in reality Chad is an example of what would probably happen, u run into someone you couldnt beat in 500 years -Shunsui...thats what happens when you're not the main character lol, yes they start off with hard work but when they're down and cornered, when they die, when they need to escape and when they need a power boost....BAM!

    the special ability of main character kicks in every time

    this goes back to why IChigo cannot be put into this argument.....he was never even a shinigami to begin with, nor is he just that now that he is one

    ur talkin about a guy with insane Reiatsu just at birth, high level shinigami powers, high level hollow powers, and Kubo threw in Fullbring to top it off and with all this you can't see the 'special' main character factor?

    im jus saying more often then not something that may occur with the main character that we may normally say thats a bunch of BS if its not the main character it happens to, we usually as fans let it slide because we know he's the main character

    in Gin-Toshiro-Byakuya we're talkin about Shinighami, who each attended the academy and rose up like all other shinigami do, no extra side powers no nothing.....these are comparable ppl, what they do have in common in this case is whats perceived as being prodigies when you insert the main character into this kind of argument you bring in factors that only apply to him that the others do not posess to start with
    Last edited by SaitoSpike; July 30, 2012 at 07:48 PM.

    Only one thing stirs my emotion. Aku. Soku. Zan. For the sake of my justice alone!

  11. #41
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    How is that not a legit reason yet you believe comparing theyre time as captains is? Battles have more to say about ones abilities than a rank.
    Like i said, Gin could have simply not wanted to be a captain and continued to serve under Aizen until the time was right. An example would be Ikkaku, he was recommended for a Captain seat yet he refused to because he served under Kenpachi (though the relationships are not similar, same rule applies).
    Your saying it as if Gin definitely trained all those "65" years. Serving more time again does not essentially make you stronger or give you time to develop much further though.
    The time to captaincy is the only thing to compare. And I agree that it is not compelling, but there is nothing else that provides a look into their potential progress. And it is more useful as a tool for determining relative ability than battles. If Gin fought Yama, or any other Senior Captain, he'd get stomped. Is it because they had far more natural talent? It's probably because they've been around for far longer than he has, have accumulated far more experience, and trained far more extensively. The only fair comparison is of feats with which the two individuals have similar starting points.

    And you said that Gin 'could' have hidden his true ability. And I've already stated that this is likely. But to what extent he hid his abilities is unknown. So simply saying that his actual ability exceeded Hitsugaya's requires some guesswork. Whether or not he comes out ahead of Hitsugaya is likely to depend on the individual that makes the determination, and they're likely to be affected by their own character preferences. I'm not going to argue about Gin's time as a Shinigami, he was a Shinigami for at least twice the time of Hitsugaya. What he did with most of that time hasn't been put forth in detail, but as a Shinigami he had duties and considering his intent to kill Aizen I seriously doubt that he vacationed for decades. Your implication was just ridiculous.


    Quote Quote:
    Thats what i basically compared, I doubt that Hitsugaya would have been on the same level as Gin had they both been shinigamis at the same time.
    Compared to Hitsugaya, Gin at a young age seemed to have done more.
    To me it seems like common sense given what the manga has shown us of what Gin was capable of at a very young age. Enough for Aizen to take note of him and have him under his wing.
    True but evidence of what Gin was capable of is there in the manga.
    Defeating a 3rd seat, and graduating from the academy within a year. These are two feats shown by Gin in his youth. We don't know how long Hitsugaya spent at the academy, and we don't know how long it took for him to become superior to 3rd seats. The only thing we know is that he was the youngest to ever achieve the rank of Captain. The feats you list for Gin are impressive, but simply stating that it is obvious that exceeds what Hitsugaya is capable of is unreasonable.

    Quote Quote:
    I dont think i said Byakuya was a prodigy... Did i?
    It was just an example of how prodigy does not equate power nor does length of captaincy.
    I wonder what age Gin was before he died..
    No, you never said Byakuya was a prodigy. But, you responded to my comments about Byakuya and so I decided to clarify, as well as elaborate, on my original point.

    A prodigy that trains is going to be exceptional, sort of the definition of a prodigy, and the more senior captains have been shown to be the most capable and powerful Shinigami. So I'm still not sure what your comment is attempting to say.

  12. #42
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    Re: Zaraki Kenpachi vs Toshiro Hitsugaya

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Your initial response to my comment about Ishida suggested that you supported the idea that the comment attempted to contradict. Someone suggested that Ishida was a God-Tier prodigy that far exceeded Hitsugaya's potential, I suggested that he had a long way to go before he could be considered as such, and then you attempted to contradict that statement. That would seem to indicate that you disagreed with my criticism of Ishida's supposed 'God-Tier Prodigy' status and supported the theory espoused by the individual I began this conversation with, unless of course you just didn't read the comments in their entirety before you decided to enter the debate.

    And you may have been discussing potential, but the initial discussion was whether certain individuals should be classified as prodigies or not. This is somewhat related to potential, but differs in many significant ways.

    As for Ishida, he may show something spectacular. After that I'd be more than willing to reanalyse and reconsider, until then I intend to use the displays of the past arcs to judge him and his abilities. At the moment, anything else is just speculation and wishful thinking.
    I am sorry if my statement sounds contradictory, that was not my intention.
    I am simply suggesting that while Toshiro is in fact a prodigy, I consider Ishida a potentially greater one.

    Toshiro had 100s of years to train in other to obtain the level he is at atm while Ishida only needs roughly 16 years to achieve a maybe greater results.

  13. #43
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member daman246's Avatar
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    Re: Zaraki Kenpachi vs Toshiro Hitsugaya

    Sorry to say this but hitsugaya will never be stronger than Aizen or even close. Aizen was also a prodigy that was in his Own Class that why he was so alone cause no one understood how freaking powerfull the guy was.
    Aizen pwnes Toushiro without even using His Hax Shikai . Aizen Mastered His Shikai/Bankai, Hado.Bakudo, and even Speed hax.

    Unlike Aizen Toushiro might not be suited for Hado/Bakudo and the speed that Yorouchi uses unlike Aizen his similar to Urahara so he can create new Hado and Understand a person in a few mins.when it comes to Zanpaktu abilities aizen pwnes toushiro. Toushiro shikai is nothing compare to Suigetsu and Aizen bankai is still unknown but we all know is going to be something even more HAX.

    Same goes for Gin, Gin was in a class of its own compare to toushiro, Toushiro might be a Prodigy but his no Genius mentally. is not like he has Aizen or Uraharas/mayuri intellect to create new Thing shinigamis can use.
    Gin on the other hand is what one will call a true Prodigy being Smart and Freaking strong and Cunning.

    And When it comes to potential No one comes close to Ichigo and Ishida. Ichigo Growth Rate is unmatchable same goes for Ishida.
    they are both around 18 years old so they are still kids in my book. give them 2-5 more years and they will be Mentally and Physically prepare to pwn any captain.

    Ichigos became Captain Class in less than 6 months then Surpass That in 2nd Stage Bankai When he became a Transcended Being and then took it a step further when He entered FGT.

    Ishida Pwned Mayuri into FQM/Final Quincy Mode, at the time Ishda was around lietenant Class so his FQM was incomplete.
    in Current Chapters Ishida is still Around Renjis Lvl or a little Above but not Byakuya Class. But if Ishida were to Use the Sterriter Volstandig instead of Honoring his Dead Grandpa and staying Old style im sure ishida would have pwned Byakuya just like AS Nodt did
    Last edited by daman246; July 30, 2012 at 11:12 PM.

  14. #44
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member daman246's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Quote:
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    The time to captaincy is the only thing to compare. And I agree that it is not compelling, but there is nothing else that provides a look into their potential progress. And it is more useful as a tool for determining relative ability than battles. If Gin fought Yama, or any other Senior Captain, he'd get stomped. Is it because they had far more natural talent? It's probably because they've been around for far longer than he has, have accumulated far more experience, and trained far more extensively. The only fair comparison is of feats with which the two individuals have similar starting points.

    And you said that Gin 'could' have hidden his true ability. And I've already stated that this is likely. But to what extent he hid his abilities is unknown. So simply saying that his actual ability exceeded Hitsugaya's requires some guesswork. Whether or not he comes out ahead of Hitsugaya is likely to depend on the individual that makes the determination, and they're likely to be affected by their own character preferences. I'm not going to argue about Gin's time as a Shinigami, he was a Shinigami for at least twice the time of Hitsugaya. What he did with most of that time hasn't been put forth in detail, but as a Shinigami he had duties and considering his intent to kill Aizen I seriously doubt that he vacationed for decades. Your implication was just ridiculous.
    lol Im sure Gin will Give Kyouraku a run for his Money. Were talking about the Guy who played with ichigo in his Hollow Form which Injured Aizen. And he was not even using his true Bankai Ability which is Hax. Im sure Gin will Pwn every captain besides Yama/Aizen/Kyouraku and Maybe Unahana But im sure he will kill Ukitake.

    Gin is the only Guy in Bleach who could have killed Aizen if it was not for the Hyogoku
    And if Gin and Toushiro were to FIght in FGT Gin would have Obliterated Toushiro lol. Toushiro had Hard time fighting the 3rd Espada which in the end he didnt defeat. Aizen K.O her in secs, And after Ichigo Gained his New Hollow Mask he was already stronger than the 3rd espada. and Gin played around with him like a teddy bear.

    GIn>>>Toushiro Stop being Toushiro Fan boys/Girls The kid sucks his much worst then ichigo. Jumps Straight forward into a trap and gets everyone beat.
    Last edited by daman246; July 30, 2012 at 11:19 PM.

  15. #45
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member deadsuit's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    No one better claim Toshiro is more talented than Gin or Byakuya. I respect your opinion if you do but........ Come on..

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