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View Poll Results: Who is more talented?

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  • Tōshirō Hitsugaya

    14 26.42%
  • Gin Ichimaru

    30 56.60%
  • Byakuya Kuchiki

    9 16.98%
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Thread: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

  1. #121
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    He saw Aizen that night, and immediately the morning after, a bunch of captains and lieutenants were exiled from SS. Maybe it's his nature to simplify things, but something big like that would have made him believe more in his intuitions. After 110 years, again Aizen was involved (faked his death). He should have been able to connect some of this together if he was sooo good at judging people (at least Hitsu was suspecting Gin). I'll repeat myself: I don't doubt his talent, I doubt the extent of how good it is. This will simply gives us a margin of error for his statement about Hitsu
    Yes, he could have made, but can you truly expect him to make a link between the two events that is separated by more than an age? Kyouraku had nothing but an instinctive force inside his hearth that suspected Aizen, but there was no proof to even call him a suspect. Court 46 should have taken Urahara's words more seriously, but I assume that they completely covered it, so, nobody even knew that Urahara said anything related to Aizen, and captains wouldn't even know about it, as they weren't present in the court at that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    @Haku:
    Renji's Bankai has a new form, but we're not sure if it's is its fullest potential no? Maybe this is just like senkei of senbonzakura, and there's still hakuteiken. In addition, growth rate in war time is different from growth rate in peace time. Renji had encountered captains level opponent continually, which greatly contributes to his growth. This will also reinforce my point of the length that Hitsu will take to reach his peak. If there's a war in every few years in SS, he might be at Shunsui's level in 100 years. But if SS is peaceful for a 1000 years, it gets alot harder for Hitsu to grow after perfecting his Bankai.
    This may be true. As you point out, we don't know the inner details yet, but the difference between Senkei, Gokei or Hakuiteiken is more of a change in battle style. So, I would call them techniques rather than different forms of a Zanpakuto. Then again, I'm not the one writing the chapters, so I'll just have to wait and see if Kubo thinks in a similar way, too. Maybe this is the first step from a pure Bankai to the first of the techniques? Like Byakuya going from Senbonzakura Kageyoshi to Senkei after the mastery, and developing his other techniques afterwards. Oh, I doubt if Senkei could be considered as a first step or not, but at any case, I'm unsure about how to put this out.

  2. #122
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member exacta's Avatar
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    Re: Zaraki Kenpachi vs Toshiro Hitsugaya

    Quote Originally Posted by Raizen View Post
    I don't agree.
    Ishida has never been stated as having high potential or even as a genius in the same regard as someone like Hitsu. Ishida currently is utter trash. Have you forgotten his horrible display during the following arc?
    Not utter trash. He did pretty well in that arc til Szayel released. Then he fought Yammy and Ulq. Ishida didn't even get a chance to do anything worth even being called trash, let alone impressive. He is good at strategizing though. Also, Mayuri was very impressed with Ishida back in SS. Being able to use Ranso Tengai instantly made him interested in Ishida despite experimenting on several Quincy already and outright saying he was bored with them at the start of the battle.

    And I don't think I have to explain to anyone how many tiers he'd shoot up if he masters the Letz Stil he used against Mayuri and can use it without losing his powers. That form is beast. Plus Kirge Opie makes it painfully obvious that Ishida has ALOT of potential for reasons that are yet unknown, though I'm guessing it has to do with his family.

  3. #123
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member vizardichigo's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    I personally think Gin is slightly ahead of Byakuya who is immensely powerful...Remember folks Gin was just a kid when he killed the 3rd seat of the 5th squad with little effort...Just because someone may have took less time to become a captain or whatever doesn't mean that they are definitely more powerful or talented...Circumstances may have played a role...Hitsu being the youngest captain is impressive but who is to say that Gin or Byakuya could not have done the same if there was an opening at the time and their captain recommended them? We dont know all the contributing factors so we cant ay with any certainty...However from what i have seen iin the manga thus far i think that Gin is probably Shunsui level, with Byakuya marginally below that...Hitsu will probably surpass them both but ATM he isnt in the league...Well thats my opinion anyway...
    Last edited by vizardichigo; September 24, 2012 at 12:19 AM.
    Thank You Kubo...You have proven once and for all, that Yamamoto Genryuusai is STRONGER THAN AIZEN SOUSUKE despite what the fanboys think

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  5. #124
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Definitely Gin. Aizen who seems to be the most intelligent and clever individual from Bleach chose him for a reason. If he hadn't betrayed him - which he knew he would - he would still be standing by him, furthering his plan if one is to completely ignore a shonen hero's captain obvious victory.

  6. #125
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Definitely Gin. Aizen who seems to be the most intelligent and clever individual from Bleach chose him for a reason. If he hadn't betrayed him - which he knew he would - he would still be standing by him, furthering his plan if one is to completely ignore a shonen hero's captain obvious victory.
    Aizen himself stated, that Urahara is smarter than him. Everything Aizen did was not thinking, it was luck and saying some bullshit about how he planned it. Saying he planned Ichigo's battles was complete bullshit, we know it. Saying "Just as I planned" doesn't mean he actually planned it. You wanna tell me you never met a person, who wanted to make impression of being smarter than he is?

  7. #126
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Aizen himself stated, that Urahara is smarter than him. Everything Aizen did was not thinking, it was luck and saying some bullshit about how he planned it. Saying he planned Ichigo's battles was complete bullshit, we know it. Saying "Just as I planned" doesn't mean he actually planned it. You wanna tell me you never met a person, who wanted to make impression of being smarter than he is?
    I believe Aizen when he says he manipulated Ichigo's battles, but yes, a huge amount of luck was involved. Ichigo could easily have died numerous times, but I guess Aizen was just counting on Yoruichi and Urahara to prevent that from happening. I do, however, think he was lying about knowing Gin's true intentions. I think Gin genuinely pulled the wool over his eyes, and Aizen saying that he kept Gin around because he wanted to see how Gin was going to try to kill him (which doesn't even make sense) was just Aizen trying to save.

  8. #127
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Aizen himself stated, that Urahara is smarter than him. Everything Aizen did was not thinking, it was luck and saying some bullshit about how he planned it. Saying he planned Ichigo's battles was complete bullshit, we know it. Saying "Just as I planned" doesn't mean he actually planned it. You wanna tell me you never met a person, who wanted to make impression of being smarter than he is?
    Urahara is a scientist and his intelligence is given for that field. Aizen is a tactical genius. Two completely different things. The smarter part he was referring to was Hoyuku - pardon the spelling - and nothing else.

    That's how the manga is; Aizen was planning for over a hundred years, doesn't seem luck to me. I really don't understand why are you pressing on that matter here. He planned it, so he did. Manga says so, because the author intended so. Leaves zero room for speculation.

    ---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    I believe Aizen when he says he manipulated Ichigo's battles, but yes, a huge amount of luck was involved. Ichigo could easily have died numerous times, but I guess Aizen was just counting on Yoruichi and Urahara to prevent that from happening. I do, however, think he was lying about knowing Gin's true intentions. I think Gin genuinely pulled the wool over his eyes, and Aizen saying that he kept Gin around because he wanted to see how Gin was going to try to kill him (which doesn't even make sense) was just Aizen trying to save.
    I don't think he was lying about Gin's intentions. Aizen seems cleverly sadistic in a lot of regards. He likes playing with people, as Gin pointed out several times. It was probably just the thrill of his supposed undoing at Gin's hands that he wanted to see. It makes sense to me.

  9. #128
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Aizen was aware of the killer intent Gin had raised inside his heart as a trait. We're talking about a kid introducing himself as a snake. How could Aizen not be wary of such a huge possibility?
    But yes, he was lying when he said that he just wanted to see how Gin would betray him. He simply underestimated Gin and never thought that Gin had something so powerful up in his sleeve.

    The deception Gin carried out here isn't his ability to hide his intentions, but rather, the job he did in keeping his power as a secret for a good century.

  10. #129
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    That's how the manga is; Aizen was planning for over a hundred years, doesn't seem luck to me. I really don't understand why are you pressing on that matter here. He planned it, so he did. Manga says so, because the author intended so. Leaves zero room for speculation.
    You're clearly Aizen fanboy. ^^ He was planning THAT for 100 years? Nope. He didn't plan Ichigo's birth and he didn't arrange his every fight. It's just stupid. He likes playing with people minds, that's why he was always saying how he knew and planned everything. Of course he didn't predict Gin to attack him. He wouldn't risk it. One fast cut to the throat and he's done for. The only moment he was safe was when he fused with Hogyoku. But he couldn't admit defeat and being outsmarted. Oh, I forgot. And being PLAYED by someone he thought he's playing. He didn't want to make mistakes, he didn't want to admit making 'em.

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  12. #130
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You're clearly Aizen fanboy. ^^ He was planning THAT for 100 years? Nope. He didn't plan Ichigo's birth and he didn't arrange his every fight. It's just stupid. He likes playing with people minds, that's why he was always saying how he knew and planned everything. Of course he didn't predict Gin to attack him. He wouldn't risk it. One fast cut to the throat and he's done for. The only moment he was safe was when he fused with Hogyoku. But he couldn't admit defeat and being outsmarted. Oh, I forgot. And being PLAYED by someone he thought he's playing. He didn't want to make mistakes, he didn't want to admit making 'em.
    I read the manga because of Aizen's characterization, and that's that, nothing more. I was talking about taking down the soul king. Yes, he had been planning out the details since god knows when. If Ichigo fitted the bill, why is it not plausible? We are talking about hundreds of years of lifespans here. All this doesn't seem impossible to me at all, given Aizen's cunning and tactical abilities.

  13. #131
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    I read the manga because of Aizen's characterization, and that's that, nothing more. I was talking about taking down the soul king. Yes, he had been planning out the details since god knows when. If Ichigo fitted the bill, why is it not plausible? We are talking about hundreds of years of lifespans here. All this doesn't seem impossible to me at all, given Aizen's cunning and tactical abilities.
    You see? You're talking about his tactical abilities, based on assumption, that he really planned what he said he did. :P If you didn't count what he said he did and take into account what he really could have done you're left with making Hogyoku, making WW aaand maybe that spell behind his neck. The rest was just him being strong and saying some random shit to manipulate and shock Ichigo. He was smart and was a sociopath. People with such personality, liking manipulation not caring for other people, often seem more intelligent (you can put random adjective here), than they really are. He was smart, but not to that extent.

  14. #132
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You see? You're talking about his tactical abilities, based on assumption, that he really planned what he said he did. :P If you didn't count what he said he did and take into account what he really could have done you're left with making Hogyoku, making WW aaand maybe that spell behind his neck. The rest was just him being strong and saying some random shit to manipulate and shock Ichigo. He was smart and was a sociopath. People with such personality, liking manipulation not caring for other people, often seem more intelligent (you can put random adjective here), than they really are. He was smart, but not to that extent.
    Plenty of political personalities conquered countries because of clever tactical planning in such a small amount of time given to any human being for actual progression. If they can bring fruition to their plans in 20 to 30 years, why is it so impossible for Aizen to accomplish that in over hundred years? It doesn't seem impossible to me at all.

  15. #133
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Plenty of political personalities conquered countries because of clever tactical planning in such a small amount of time given to any human being for actual progression. If they can bring fruition to their plans in 20 to 30 years, why is it so impossible for Aizen to accomplish that in over hundred years? It doesn't seem impossible to me at all.
    1. Bleach is not real world.
    2. They conquered countries in 20-30 years? Really? I guess it didn't last long, unfortunately.
    3. Aizen could conquer HM because of his hax zanpakuto AND his strength. You really think that Mayuri, who is really smart, could do that without such power?

  16. #134
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    1. Bleach is not real world.
    2. They conquered countries in 20-30 years? Really? I guess it didn't last long, unfortunately.
    3. Aizen could conquer HM because of his hax zanpakuto AND his strength. You really think that Mayuri, who is really smart, could do that without such power?
    I don't understand your last point. And as far as real world debate goes, then according to Plato, every art is a reflection of self. There isn't a thing in the artistic world or literature that is not inspired from real life.

  17. #135
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    I don't understand your last point. And as far as real world debate goes, then according to Plato, every art is a reflection of self. There isn't a thing in the artistic world or literature that is not inspired from real life.
    I don't respect Platon as philosopher, sorry. Bleach is complete fiction and has its own reality. It reflects person's self, not the whole world.

    Aizen conquered HM not because of tactical abilities but stregth. Creating WW was logical thing to do. I mean, he had to ensure he'll win. You'll do the same if you had Hogyoku, that makes everything you want. ;_;

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