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Thread: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

  1. #136
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I don't respect Platon as philosopher, sorry. Bleach is complete fiction and has its own reality. It reflects person's self, not the whole world.

    Aizen conquered HM not because of tactical abilities but stregth. Creating WW was logical thing to do. I mean, he had to ensure he'll win. You'll do the same if you had Hogyoku, that makes everything you want. ;_;
    You failed to grasp my point that every fiction has a ground in reality in one way or another, because reality is always the underlying inspiration for it. Aizen bested SS because of his strength and tactical abilities. Whether you agree with it or not is your opinion.

  2. #137
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    You failed to grasp my point that every fiction has a ground in reality in one way or another, because reality is always the underlying inspiration for it. Aizen bested SS because of his strength and tactical abilities. Whether you agree with it or not is your opinion.
    I didn't fail to grasp you point. I even responded to it. I wrote "It reflects person's self, not the whole world". It shows how author thinks, what he thinks about the world, what is inside him, but we can't compare Bleach and real world like it was the same thing. Bleach has its own rules, we have ours. It is NOT the same. Being inspired by something doesn't mean that result of that inspiration is the same as thing that inspired us. That was MY point, that you failed to grasp.

  3. #138
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I didn't fail to grasp you point. I even responded to it. I wrote "It reflects person's self, not the whole world". It shows how author thinks, what he thinks about the world, what is inside him, but we can't compare Bleach and real world like it was the same thing. Bleach has its own rules, we have ours. It is NOT the same. Being inspired by something doesn't mean that result of that inspiration is the same as thing that inspired us. That was MY point, that you failed to grasp.
    Look at my post about 'investing years to attain tactical progress'. My point was; if such profound progression is possible in real world in mere 30 years, how is this planning so impossible in more than a century? This was my original point.

  4. #139
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Look at my post about 'investing years to attain tactical progress'. My point was; if such profound progression is possible in real world in mere 30 years, how is this planning so impossible in more than a century? This was my original point.
    Its Bleachverse, not our universe. Same rules doesn't apply there. You don't have hax Zanpakuto that helps you plan everything, because you can make them see whatever they want. :P

  5. #140
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Its Bleachverse, not our universe. Same rules doesn't apply there. You don't have hax Zanpakuto that helps you plan everything, because you can make them see whatever they want. :P
    Sigh. Still not getting my point. Never mind.

  6. #141
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Sigh. Still not getting my point. Never mind.
    And you still don't get my point. Who cares if it could be planned in 30 years in real life. His zanpakuto was perfect to mischief everyone. His intelligence wasn't so outrageuos, his zanpakuto made everything he couldn't figure out for him.

  7. #142
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak
    His intelligence wasn't so outrageuos, his zanpakuto made everything he couldn't figure out for him.
    I kinda disagree with this,for me the only thing KS did for him was to,as you say,"mischief" everyone,basically the fighting part included in his plan was done by his Zanpakutou.But his Zanpakutou didn't do everything for him,it was Aizen who researched the Hogyoku,who came up with the plan to show up dead on a wall,who seems to have deep knowledge of Isshin and Ichigo and has been observing them for a long time,it was Aizen who was able to fuse with a Hogyoku.Anyhow,the only ones who arrived at the conclusion of the object called "Hogyoku" to remove the limits in fighting of a Shinigami are Urahara and Aizen,so it wouldn't be a far-stretch to assume that Aizen is the second most intelligent being in the Bleach-verse(even Aizen said that in SS,only Urahara's intelligence surpasses his own).

    I think you're just overestimating his Zanpakutou,remember that KS makes you feel,see,touch w/e anything Aizen wants,but that doesn't mean that KS planned everything for Aizen,it was him who made a Hogyoku and managed to arrive at a transcendental state.[this could be argued,however].A tool is useless,unless the one who wields it knows how to use it,right?

  8. #143
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by g0dzax View Post
    I kinda disagree with this,for me the only thing KS did for him was to,as you say,"mischief" everyone,basically the fighting part included in his plan was done by his Zanpakutou.But his Zanpakutou didn't do everything for him,it was Aizen who researched the Hogyoku,who came up with the plan to show up dead on a wall,who seems to have deep knowledge of Isshin and Ichigo and has been observing them for a long time,it was Aizen who was able to fuse with a Hogyoku.Anyhow,the only ones who arrived at the conclusion of the object called "Hogyoku" to remove the limits in fighting of a Shinigami are Urahara and Aizen,so it wouldn't be a far-stretch to assume that Aizen is the second most intelligent being in the Bleach-verse(even Aizen said that in SS,only Urahara's intelligence surpasses his own).

    I think you're just overestimating his Zanpakutou,remember that KS makes you feel,see,touch w/e anything Aizen wants,but that doesn't mean that KS planned everything for Aizen,it was him who made a Hogyoku and managed to arrive at a transcendental state.[this could be argued,however].A tool is useless,unless the one who wields it knows how to use it,right?
    I didn't say it planned everything for him. How did he show up dead in the wall? Think for a while. DING DING DING! YES, IT WAS KS! Hogyoku was Urahara's idea and his research. Fusing with Hogyoku is matter of implanting it to yourself. He doesn't have deep knowledge of Isshin. He has basic knowledge of him and he knows a lot about Ichigo. I think we'll see Aizen again when Ichigo will get to know the truth about his family. Aizen will show up and say "I told you when we were fighting -.-". What do you understand by "intelligence"? He couldn't do introspection (I don't even know if suck term exists in english) and didn't know himself. He pushed aside the fact he was lonely and it turned against him in the end.

  9. #144
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak
    Hogyoku was Urahara's idea and his research.
    I dunno in which chapter,but I'm pretty sure Aizen researched the Hogyoku before Urahara.In the TBTP arc,if you remember,the little story with Rangiku and some random Shinigami who gave Aizen some souls,and Aizen was holding an object in his hands-that was the Hogyoku.That's the first time Gin saw Aizen.And Urahara became a captain and researched the Hogyoku after Gin had joined Aizen,so if the time-lines are correct,Aizen was holding his Hogyoku before Urahara made his own .

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak
    He doesn't have deep knowledge of Isshin. He has basic knowledge of him and he knows a lot about Ichigo. I think we'll see Aizen again when Ichigo will get to know the truth about his family. Aizen will show up and say "I told you when we were fighting -.-".
    If Aizen knows alot of Ichigo and knows that his bloodline is special and about his family,wouldn't that include Isshin?I mean,just because he didn't say a word about Isshin doesn't mean he has basic knowledge of him(I mean,Aizen would know far more of Isshin than just the fact that he's Ichigo's dad;most likely Aizen knows Isshin just like Urahara knows Isshin[though it's just an assumption]).Since we have no real connection between Aizen and Isshin in the manga(just besides the fact Aizen knows Ichigo's special that means he knows who his parents are,thus includes the fact that he knows Isshin,but to what degree,that we can not know).


    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak
    He couldn't do introspection (I don't even know if suck term exists in english) and didn't know himself. He pushed aside the fact he was lonely and it turned against him in the end.
    The whole thing with Aizen being lonely was just Ichigo's opinion based on how he fought with Aizen,so I don't know how to take this .My opinion when Aizen seemingly "lost" his powers still remains the same : he was merging with his Zanpakutou to a state similar to FGT,where Ichigo lost his blade who became part of him.I don't know if the blade crumbling was Aizen's inner desire to lose his powers,'cause I doubt it.

  10. #145
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by g0dzax View Post
    I dunno in which chapter,but I'm pretty sure Aizen researched the Hogyoku before Urahara.In the TBTP arc,if you remember,the little story with Rangiku and some random Shinigami who gave Aizen some souls,and Aizen was holding an object in his hands-that was the Hogyoku.That's the first time Gin saw Aizen.And Urahara became a captain and researched the Hogyoku after Gin had joined Aizen,so if the time-lines are correct,Aizen was holding his Hogyoku before Urahara made his own .
    I'll look it up when I finish playing Counter Strike. :P I remember Aizen based his research on Urahara's Hogyoku.

    Quote Quote:
    If Aizen knows alot of Ichigo and knows that his bloodline is special and about his family,wouldn't that include Isshin?I mean,just because he didn't say a word about Isshin doesn't mean he has basic knowledge of him(I mean,Aizen would know far more of Isshin than just the fact that he's Ichigo's dad;most likely Aizen knows Isshin just like Urahara knows Isshin[though it's just an assumption]).Since we have no real connection between Aizen and Isshin in the manga(just besides the fact Aizen knows Ichigo's special that means he knows who his parents are,thus includes the fact that he knows Isshin,but to what degree,that we can not know).
    I said basic. He knows his bloodline, but not exactly his past and he wasn't watching him all that time (It's still BS to me that he knew about Ichigo from his birth)

    Quote Quote:
    The whole thing with Aizen being lonely was just Ichigo's opinion based on how he fought with Aizen,so I don't know how to take this .My opinion when Aizen seemingly "lost" his powers still remains the same : he was merging with his Zanpakutou to a state similar to FGT,where Ichigo lost his blade who became part of him.I don't know if the blade crumbling was Aizen's inner desire to lose his powers,'cause I doubt it.
    But it makes sense and it served some purpose. Otherwise, why would he show us Ichigo's opinion?
    Last edited by Duniak; October 13, 2012 at 06:38 AM.

  11. #146
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak
    I'll look it up when I finish playing Counter Strike. :P I remember Aizen based his research on Urahara's Hogyoku.
    I would look it up myself,but my internet connection is really weak and it would take alot of time to find those pages,but I'm pretty sure from what I remeber that Aizen had researched the H before Urahara.

    Quote Quote:
    I said basic. He knows his bloodline, but not exactly his past and he wasn't watching him all that time (It's still BS to me that he knew about Ichigo from his birth)
    Okay,it may be basic knowledge,but like I said,we don't know how much Aizen knows of Isshin,because there was no interaction between the two of them.He may know next to nothing but he may also know Isshin's past like a book.We just don't know how much Aizen knows(because Aizen does tend to bluff often lol).

    Quote Quote:
    But it makes sense and it served some purpose. Otherwise, why would he show us Ichigo's opinion?
    It makes sense though I fail to see it's purpose.Like I said,I'm still in doubts about this situation so I won't voice anymore on this matter...

  12. #147
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by g0dzax View Post
    I would look it up myself,but my internet connection is really weak and it would take alot of time to find those pages,but I'm pretty sure from what I remeber that Aizen had researched the H before Urahara.
    In wiki it is said Aizen was first and Urahara failed to understand its true power. Seems like you've been right there. But I'll check it in manga later.

    Quote Quote:
    Okay,it may be basic knowledge,but like I said,we don't know how much Aizen knows of Isshin,because there was no interaction between the two of them.He may know next to nothing but he may also know Isshin's past like a book.We just don't know how much Aizen knows(because Aizen does tend to bluff often lol).
    You're the one who said that he knows much about Isshin.

  13. #148
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak
    You're the one who said that he knows much about Isshin.
    Because it would make sense...if he knew Ichigo since his birth,he obviously knows who his parents are,and it'd only be natural for him to know those parents,so that he can determine just why Ichigo is so special and whatsoever.

  14. #149
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And you still don't get my point. Who cares if it could be planned in 30 years in real life. His zanpakuto was perfect to mischief everyone. His intelligence wasn't so outrageuos, his zanpakuto made everything he couldn't figure out for him.
    I don't understand why you are undermining Aizen's intelligence. His Zampaktou didn't have brains the last time I checked. He used it the way he desired it to further his ambitions. He researched on Hoyuko before Urahara as someone else mentioned here. He was already researching on the potentials to become free of the state of shingami and Hollow, hence the experiments on his captain and few others.

    His sword is a tool, nothing else. The way he used it, that's what was impressive. And it proves that he was outrageously intelligent. Why wouldn't he know Ichigo from his birth? The moron is only 15.
    Last edited by shahdan; October 13, 2012 at 08:26 AM.

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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    I don't understand why you are undermining Aizen's intelligence. His Zampaktou didn't have brains the last time I checked. He used it the way he desired it to further his ambitions. He researched on Hoyuko before Urahara as someone else mentioned here. He was already researching on the potentials to become free of the state of shingami and Hollow, hence the experiments on his captain and few others.

    His sword is a tool, nothing else. The way he used it, that's what was impressive. And it proves that he was outrageously intelligent. Why wouldn't he know Ichigo from his birth? The moron is only 15.
    Am I talking to a dog or a cat? I'm pretty sure there's thinking, intelligent person on the other side, so why is it so hard to explain my point? He could make everyone see what he wanted. He was intelligent, but he was no genius as you try to make him to be. KS helped him so much. He wouldn't have faked his death without KS, he would have to fight Arrancars and Barragan with bothersome ability. REALLY bothersome. I don't see how he would win. Kyoka Suigetsu helped him a lot. It was just perfect match for his intelligence. Without KS he wouldn't have achieved so much.

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