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View Poll Results: Who is more talented?

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  • Tōshirō Hitsugaya

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  • Gin Ichimaru

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Thread: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

  1. #181
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Dude, I brushed your 'am I talking to a dog or cat' remark aside. So that includes me as well. You are not talking to a wall, but your opinions are not being agreed upon. Why? Because we have ours.

    Shinji helped him understand everything about controlling his hallow. How can you not acknowledge that?
    Oh, that's just as offending as "talking to a wall". Actually, cat has shred of intelligence! Really? We don't agree because you have your opinions? Are you serious? Tell me more exciting facts, that I might not know about!

    There's lots to understand. YOU BEAT THAT WHITE DUDE WHEN HE TRIES TO TAKE OVER AND IT IS DONE. How can I not acknowledge that? Just like that.

  2. #182
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Oh, that's just as offending as "talking to a wall". Actually, cat has shred of intelligence! Really? We don't agree because you have your opinions? Are you serious? Tell me more exciting facts, that I might not know about!

    There's lots to understand. YOU BEAT THAT WHITE DUDE WHEN HE TRIES TO TAKE OVER AND IT IS DONE. How can I not acknowledge that? Just like that.
    You think that Aizen's intelligence is not genius level is some sort of fact? I am sorry, the manga illustrates otherwise, hence it's nothing but your opinion. You have brought no convincing argument to back up your claim other than the repeated KS and mischief one. As I said earlier, going by your logic, every Shinigami is useless then if we take away their swords. And Aizen used more than just KS to get his way around SS. He used cunning words, Hogyoko research, elaborate scheming and best-laid plans to get where he is. The manga has shown it plenty of times. That's why your posts are only opinions and that's that.
    Last edited by shahdan; October 15, 2012 at 03:53 PM.

  3. #183
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    being genius isn't only about becoming stronger. there should be some other factors; the ability to understand, ability to think and ability to plan ahead. so far, Ichigo has shown nothing of those except being strong. Kenpachi is insanely strong too, but would you call him a genius only because of that?
    Well at least Ichi thinks much more than Kenpachi
    What's not in favor of Ichi is his severe, SEVERE lack of information. He found out about everything there is to shinigami, and hollows, during (or in between) combat, I'll give one of the most important facts about hollows - that they're human souls - or that zanpakutos are more than just swords, as examples. He's not your typical shinigami, who lived learning about this kind of stuff, and when we see them in combat, they already have the info.
    Ichigo, on the other hand, doesn't know anything about the enemy, other than they're trying to hurt people close to him and he has to act really fast to stop them.
    Others (like Urahara) know much more, and they have Ichi on the front lines, so they can take their time thinking), that's why they seem so clever.

    Another factor for thinking in fights is age. Our protagonist is a few hundred years younger than others, and he acts his age. Still, it's amazing how much he was able to achieve, being only a kid.

    ---------- Post added at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    You think that Aizen's intelligence is not genius level is some sort of fact? I am sorry, the manga illustrates otherwise, hence it's nothing but your opinion. You have brought no convincing argument to back up your claim other than the repeated KS and mischief one. As I said earlier, going by your logic, every Shinigami is useless then if we take away their swords. And Aizen used more than just KS to get his way around SS. He used cunning words, Hogyoko research, elaborate scheming and best-laid plans to get where he is. The manga has shown it plenty of times. That's why your posts are only opinions and that's that.
    And it all went to hell (pun intended) with someone who, as you say, didn't achieve anything on his own. I'm not saying Aizen was not a genius - in power and intelligence, he was quite possibly the 2nd best overall for a long time in the series (although, in power, he was far beyond Yama), and going by Ichigo's words after FGT, Aizen was supposed to be extraordinary since his birth. But, I wonder what Ichi, who managed surpass even Butterflaizen with determination in the short while he was shinigaming, was then?
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    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

  4. #184
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    You think that Aizen's intelligence is not genius level is some sort of fact? I am sorry, the manga illustrates otherwise, hence it's nothing but your opinion. You have brought no convincing argument to back up your claim other than the repeated KS and mischief one. As I said earlier, going by your logic, every Shinigami is useless then if we take away their swords. And Aizen used more than just KS to get his way around SS. He used cunning words, Hogyoko research, elaborate scheming and best-laid plans to get where he is. The manga has shown it plenty of times. That's why your posts are only opinions and that's that.
    You just don't get it. You talk same shit again, because... I don't know. You are either so stupid, or you don't want to discuss on anything else, because you feel like you have upper-hand there. I didn't say anything about Aizen's intelligence in my last post. Still, all you do is bring that thing back. He wasn't genius, because of his sword he didn't need to be one to look like one. For me Ichigo is a genius because he was born special, is special, and made something noone could in 2 years. And Aizen... for a guy who is Shinigami 200 times as long as Ichigo, wasn't so strong without Hogyouku. Give 400 years to Ichigo and let him train. After few years he would mop the floor with Squad 0 and Aizen with Hogyoku. Gin was at VC level when being 5 years old. Probably had Shunpo, and I don't think he had Shikai. He could do it with simple sword or wooden stick.

  5. #185
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You just don't get it. You talk same shit again, because... I don't know. You are either so stupid, or you don't want to discuss on anything else, because you feel like you have upper-hand there. I didn't say anything about Aizen's intelligence in my last post. Still, all you do is bring that thing back. He wasn't genius, because of his sword he didn't need to be one to look like one. For me Ichigo is a genius because he was born special, is special, and made something noone could in 2 years. And Aizen... for a guy who is Shinigami 200 times as long as Ichigo, wasn't so strong without Hogyouku. Give 400 years to Ichigo and let him train. After few years he would mop the floor with Squad 0 and Aizen with Hogyoku. Gin was at VC level when being 5 years old. Probably had Shunpo, and I don't think he had Shikai. He could do it with simple sword or wooden stick.
    I don't get it. How does one's sword makes him look like a genius when he actually isn't? Aizen still had to come up with the plans. There is no denial to the fact that KS has a hax ability and it is the perfect weapon to develop schemes, but Aizen, provided he was at the level of strength he showcased, would still develop his own plans in some other way.
    And your comparison with Ichigo's development rate doesn't make any sense. Ichigo is a melee fighter, not a tactician. His way of getting a hold of what he is taught is great, but when it comes to perception skills, he hasn't shown anything special to consider a genius. Again, you are talking about mopping the floor with Squad 0 or so, but this isn't just about power level. I bet, unlike many would like to assume, Urahara isn't as strong as you may be tempted to think, or say, he isn't in the league of the best, but still, in terms of intellect, he is way above many of the characters, if not all of them, which makes him a genius.

    I couldn't be any more disinterested in Aizen than I'm, but give him the due respect. He made an at-least-century-lasting plan and went through all. For years, everyone thought of him as a regular VC level guy when he clearly wasn't. That requires detailed planning. You cannot deny it.
    You can ignore that fact, though, and degrade the character on its own, I'm perfectly fine with that. I dislike Aizen as an arrogant figure and I will not be in his defense for a minute more.
    Last edited by Hakuteiken; October 16, 2012 at 10:07 AM.

  6. #186
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    I think you're putting too much emphasis on Kyoka Suigetsu's part in Aizen's schemes. He didn't actually use it that much. He put on an act that convinced hundreds of Shinigami that he was an affable, kind hearted guy without Kyoka Suigetsu. He knew just what to say to people to provoke the response he wanted, whether that was throwing them into a fit of rage or filling them with doubt or whatever. He had a gift for foresight that made him an effective strategist, tactician and manipulator. Almost every time he used Kyoka Suigetsu, it was part of a larger scheme. Just having the power is one thing, but having the skill to master it and use it effectively is another.

    Also, we have no idea how old Gin was at that point. Well over 5, though. Remember that Shinigami age a lot more slowly than humans. Rukia for instance looks younger than Ichigo, but is several times his age. Gin could have been closer to 30 at that point for all we know. And going back to Aizen, how do we know he wasn't as powerful as Gin was when he was 5 or 30 or whatever? We don't know how he reached the level of power he had. He may have been born with it, or he may have trained it up by himself. Given that he was a lot stronger than he let on when he was with the Gotei 13, he must have achieved his level of skill by himself. Whether he was born gifted or self taught, it would make him a genius in terms of skill, wouldn't it?

    But Ichigo is something of a genius, not so much because of the massive potential he was born with, but because of the exceptional speed with which he's grasped it so far. Early on in the manga, it was mentioned several times how incredibly fast he was learning sword fighting technique. Yes, he had help from much more knowledgeable and experienced people, but it takes talent for a student to grasp the lessons of a teacher with such speed and precision. That said, I don't think he'll ever be able to wrap his head around Kido.

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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I don't get it. How does one's sword makes him look like a genius when he actually isn't?
    Really? He mindfucked everyone in SS, made them see something else, by showing KS mindfucked HM. Great evil, but without KS he would really need to be genius to pull it off. It was just easier with KS.

    When talking about Ichigo and Gin I was talking about strength, not intellect. When it comes to intellect I showed 2 examples who I consider genius in intelligence.

    NoOne: Really? You can't pull it off? You can't make most of people do what you want? It's not really hard. You just have to know how they behave, how they tend to react in various situations and that's all. For me it's nothing hard and impressive. With KS he faked his death, most likely became captain. We don't know if Aizen had Bankai at all.

  8. #188
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You just don't get it. You talk same shit again, because... I don't know. You are either so stupid, or you don't want to discuss on anything else, because you feel like you have upper-hand there. I didn't say anything about Aizen's intelligence in my last post. Still, all you do is bring that thing back. He wasn't genius, because of his sword he didn't need to be one to look like one. For me Ichigo is a genius because he was born special, is special, and made something noone could in 2 years. And Aizen... for a guy who is Shinigami 200 times as long as Ichigo, wasn't so strong without Hogyouku. Give 400 years to Ichigo and let him train. After few years he would mop the floor with Squad 0 and Aizen with Hogyoku. Gin was at VC level when being 5 years old. Probably had Shunpo, and I don't think he had Shikai. He could do it with simple sword or wooden stick.
    For someone who wants to reason, you sure resort to 5th grade level insults fast. I am sorry man, I am not amused or impressed. You have to do more than that - much more - to make me retort. How old are you? The rest of your post is tripe. I don't know what to make of it. I can understand English is your second language, but you seem to have comprehension issues. Severe ones. At one end you said he is not intelligent as I make him sound like and now Ichigo is somehow special? Intelligence has everything to do with your cognitive and mental development, nothing beyond that. Aizen trumps Ichigo here or slaps him into a wheel chair, which ever choice of words' suits you.

    This is a shonen manga. Ichigo will always win, no matter what the odds. So your analysis is incorrect to begin with given the genre that is biased from the get go. Either come up with proper sentences or don't bother. Your posts are beginning to give me a headache now.

    ---------- Post added at 11:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    Well at least Ichi thinks much more than Kenpachi
    What's not in favor of Ichi is his severe, SEVERE lack of information. He found out about everything there is to shinigami, and hollows, during (or in between) combat, I'll give one of the most important facts about hollows - that they're human souls - or that zanpakutos are more than just swords, as examples. He's not your typical shinigami, who lived learning about this kind of stuff, and when we see them in combat, they already have the info.
    Ichigo, on the other hand, doesn't know anything about the enemy, other than they're trying to hurt people close to him and he has to act really fast to stop them.
    Others (like Urahara) know much more, and they have Ichi on the front lines, so they can take their time thinking), that's why they seem so clever.

    Another factor for thinking in fights is age. Our protagonist is a few hundred years younger than others, and he acts his age. Still, it's amazing how much he was able to achieve, being only a kid.

    ---------- Post added at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 AM ----------



    And it all went to hell (pun intended) with someone who, as you say, didn't achieve anything on his own. I'm not saying Aizen was not a genius - in power and intelligence, he was quite possibly the 2nd best overall for a long time in the series (although, in power, he was far beyond Yama), and going by Ichigo's words after FGT, Aizen was supposed to be extraordinary since his birth. But, I wonder what Ichi, who managed surpass even Butterflaizen with determination in the short while he was shinigaming, was then?

    Ichigo has always won through raw strength. And given Bleach's status as a shonen, the entire Manga will be lopsided towards Ichigo. There is nothing new in this regard.

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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Aizen is a genius
    Gin is a genius
    Ichigo is a genius
    Moving on lol

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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    For someone who wants to reason, you sure resort to 5th grade level insults fast. I am sorry man, I am not amused or impressed. You have to do more than that - much more - to make me retort. How old are you? The rest of your post is tripe. I don't know what to make of it. I can understand English is your second language, but you seem to have comprehension issues. Severe ones. At one end you said he is not intelligent as I make him sound like and now Ichigo is somehow special? Intelligence has everything to do with your cognitive and mental development, nothing beyond that. Aizen trumps Ichigo here or slaps him into a wheel chair, which ever choice of words' suits you.

    This is a shonen manga. Ichigo will always win, no matter what the odds. So your analysis is incorrect to begin with given the genre that is biased from the get go. Either come up with proper sentences or don't bother. Your posts are beginning to give me a headache now.
    Yup, english is my second language. Or third, should I say? For a man who writes the same thing for few days now, you have no right to tell me about comprehension issues. We're discussing the same thing for like... 3 pages? And you write the same thing over and over again. "Talking to a wall" is very adequate in that case. If you consider it 5th grade insult, I couldn't care less.

    Ichigo is genius in terms of development and strength, Aizen is intelligent, but he didn't impress me at all, and I don't consider him genius. Simple as that. I think we have both 2 different understanding of term "genius". Someone with outstanding intelligence is not genius for me. For me, genius is somebody who is born with some gift and uses it to the fullest, showing us what human can really do. Oh, he is Shonen hero and my arguments are worthless? Going by your, stupid and childish, logic, Aizen is typical Shonen villain, intelligent (or brute, cruel) with bothersome abilities , and somehow only Shonen hero can beat him. Now I can say YOUR analysis is wrong to begin with, and you shouldn't consider Aizen genius because, well, he must be intelligent to fit the story. Aizen is sociopath that can't understand his true desires and I think under shell of his intelligence and arrogance there's lonely, probably unstable Aizen-chan so I would rather call him an idiot than genius.

  12. #191
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Ichigo has always won through raw strength. And given Bleach's status as a shonen, the entire Manga will be lopsided towards Ichigo. There is nothing new in this regard.
    Give me chars you call geniuses, who don't have a mindfucking ability (KS), and to what extent they used strategy, which doesn't focus on knowing your opponent extremely well, in battles. Just to prove that it can be done.
    Last edited by 0Xellos; October 16, 2012 at 03:09 PM.
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    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    Give me chars you call geniuses, who don't have a mindfucking ability (KS), and to what extent they used strategy, which doesn't focus on knowing your opponent extremely well, in battles.
    I don't think it's relevant to that discussion. You misunderstood my whole post and point. In terms of intelligence there's no genius in Bleach. Fact, that Aizen and Urahara have outstanding intelligence doesn't mean they are geniuses. Quite frankly, I think Urahara is much closer to being genius. He thinks few moves ahead, predicts accurately what might happen and has scenarios for every possibility. Sealing Aizen is the best proof of it. He could easily predict what Ichigo's friend might do, he predicted Ichigo will rush to save Inoue, he made that strange reiatsu sword to help Ichigo regain his powers and can understand enemy's ability just by looking at it (Yamma's B[something]), and then create the same attack with his sword. It is genius for me. Yup, I think in answer to your request I'll say: Urahara Kisuke!

  14. #193
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    Give me chars you call geniuses, who don't have a mindfucking ability (KS), and to what extent they used strategy, which doesn't focus on knowing your opponent extremely well, in battles. Just to prove that it can be done.
    Gin seems along these lines. I don't think I need to highlight anything, because he spent about a century with a man without any special ability to figure out how his KS truly worked and bested him.

    ---------- Post added at 05:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Yup, english is my second language. Or third, should I say? For a man who writes the same thing for few days now, you have no right to tell me about comprehension issues. We're discussing the same thing for like... 3 pages? And you write the same thing over and over again. "Talking to a wall" is very adequate in that case. If you consider it 5th grade insult, I couldn't care less.

    Ichigo is genius in terms of development and strength, Aizen is intelligent, but he didn't impress me at all, and I don't consider him genius. Simple as that. I think we have both 2 different understanding of term "genius". Someone with outstanding intelligence is not genius for me. For me, genius is somebody who is born with some gift and uses it to the fullest, showing us what human can really do. Oh, he is Shonen hero and my arguments are worthless? Going by your, stupid and childish, logic, Aizen is typical Shonen villain, intelligent (or brute, cruel) with bothersome abilities , and somehow only Shonen hero can beat him. Now I can say YOUR analysis is wrong to begin with, and you shouldn't consider Aizen genius because, well, he must be intelligent to fit the story. Aizen is sociopath that can't understand his true desires and I think under shell of his intelligence and arrogance there's lonely, probably unstable Aizen-chan so I would rather call him an idiot than genius.
    Bringing myself to square one, I'll finish this off in three sentences once and for all:

    - It doesn't matter what your version of genius is. You can't go against English language. Henceforth, your version of genius is only a misuse of the word.

    - Your interpretation of characters based on incorrect usage of words speaks volumes. If you don't have a decent command over the language, it'll be much better if you didn't discuss topics that require you to use extensive, stretchy sentences, and complex analysis. It will obviously be beyond your ability. This is not disrespect, just blunt take on your poor logic, and calling others 'a wall of bricks' yet refusing to face up to the facts that you are unable to grasp things due to language barrier.

    - I never asked for your opinions, nor do I care about them. I apologize for thinking you had some sort of reason in your head and maturity to discuss things in a civil manner. I hate bothersome people, case in point.

    And that's that. You will not be entertained anymore, nor will I indulge your silly insult attempts - which are pretty lame by the way. Good day to you, sir.

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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Gin seems along these lines. I don't think I need to highlight anything, because he spent about a century with a man without any special ability to figure out how his KS truly worked and bested him.
    That is a strategy that requires knowing your opponent extremely well. Based on this, anyone can be called a genius with battle strength and a hundred years to spare.

    I do agree that this is a sign of a genius.
    However, Ichigo has the disadvantage of not having that much time. Usually, he comes to the rescue 5 minutes before noon. So it's not reasonable to say Ichi's not genius-level because he doesn't wait, if he can't wait.

    Yet when talking about Ichigo and Gin, recall their fight in FKKT. Gin tried to trick Ichigo into not focusing on the most important asset of his bankai - the speed - by telling him other parameters (which could've been wrong), and Ichi saw through that. That is the thinking in battle and not just using brute strength, that you're talking about.
    And Gin acknowledged how fast Ichigo was able to pick up on dealing with KnY, calling him a "creepy kid".
    Last edited by 0Xellos; October 17, 2012 at 08:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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    Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    That is a strategy that requires knowing your opponent extremely well. Based on this, anyone can be called a genius with battle strength and a hundred years to spare.

    I do agree that this is a sign of a genius.
    However, Ichigo has the disadvantage of not having that much time. Usually, he comes to the rescue 5 minutes before noon. So it's not reasonable to say Ichi's not genius-level because he doesn't wait, if he can't wait.

    Yet when talking about Ichigo and Gin, recall their fight in FKKT. Gin tried to trick Ichigo into not focusing on the most important asset of his bankai - the speed - by telling him other parameters (which could've been wrong), and Ichi saw through that. That is the thinking in battle and not just using brute strength, that you're talking about.
    And Gin acknowledged how fast Ichigo was able to pick up on dealing with KnY, calling him a "creepy kid".
    We are talking about a Zampaktou that blocks out all senses. I will have to say it'll take no less than a century to unravel such a mystery.

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