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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
Well, of course the differense between Renji and Byakuya is big, but the differense between Byakuya and Ichigo seems to be way bigger and Ichigo in Bankai was still having troubles against Kirge, so I doubt Byakuya will win against Kirge as Byakuya showed quite a bad performanse against As Nodt even knowing the fact that he was ripped of his Bankai.
Byakuya didn't show any speed and any Kidou, while we know he can do it.
Also, Byakuya didn't defeat the fastest Espada. It was obvious a boast on Zomari's part. I believe it was quite obvious that the fastest one was Stark.
Well, no way Byakuya has the same attacking power as Ichigo's Bankai and no way he has the same speed that Ichigo has in his Bankai+ Fullbring, so I can't see him winning.
Zommari speed clones was a legitimate feat. Starrk grabbing Orihime and seemingly vanishing was weird but it was kinda out of context, since they were taken by surprise it was easier to carry out. Since then Starrk has not shown anything would would make you consider him the fastest Espada.
Being able to react is not the same as burst speed or movement, Kubo said Kenapachi speed or movement was literally zero yet he is more than capable of reacting effectively to an opponent. Soifon has the best movement or burst speed feats for a captain yet because Yama is stronger you think he's faster? Certainly the difference between them isn't too great to point that he can't react, in the end that's likely all that matters really.
Look what Byakuya's shikai did to As Nodt's hand with blut in active. Imagine her entire body engulf by his bankai, she'd be shredded. I think the same applies to Kirge. I don't think he was stronger than As Nodt.
Well, his entire fight against Shunsui and Vaizard Captains showed that he was damn fast. Also clones doesn't show that you are the fastest. Soi Fong can also make clones and even Byakuya, but it doesn't make them fastest Captains in any way. Aizen, Isshin, Yama would make a fodder treatment on them in such terms as they showed us. Speed isn't always about weird moves like making clones.
Well, I do believe As Nodt was considerably weaker than Mohawk guy or Kirge. Byakuya's Shikai was always a joke even back in SS Arc. Even Shikai Ichigo managed to withstand it, so it isn't a fit.
Shikai, withstood it? I don't recall...he effectively evaded it and dispersed the blades with his shikai. If blades hit they are effective, its just that a few dozen blades is nothing to milllions...
Byakuya speed technique was more akin to a replacement jutsu from Naruto while Soifon clones were created due to sheer speed, you can go a check. I could find the pages but it would take some time.
Last edited by cracker; October 31, 2012 at 02:32 PM.
He evaded it to some extent, but then he was caught and injured a bit. It was just before he went Bankai. Byakuya's Shikai is a joke for really strong characters. The same as Urahara's Shikai, so no way Byakuya's Shikai can harm Kirge. Especially since Ichigo's Bankai Getsuga from point blank didn't even make a scratch on him and it's obviously damn strong no matter how we look at it.
Well, it seemed to be the same tech. The differense is a level of the skill. It seemed to be Yoruichi's Zicada.
That said, we also have no idea of just how fast kirge actually is. He is certainly fast in the grand scheme of things but the claim that he would be much faster than byakuya at least in his base form so far would not have much basis. I mean, what he did to 3 bestias is overall not difficult for a captain level fighter to begin with.
Overall at least in kirge's base form I can't honestly imagine him keeping up with byakuya. Kirge is good but at that stage he only has his cage and holy arrows. Holy arrows being that decisive here would be very strange as they did not even seem to pack that much power to begin with. They obviously aren't strong enough to get past byakuya's bankai even in volstandig IMO.
Then we have volstandig kirge. Kirge only has his jail which I have no idea of how it would help him in battle. What good would it be if kirge can't attack the inside of it? I would argue that if such a thing was possible then he would have done so against ichigo from the start. Speed wise he should be superior but from then he would have nothing in particular to help him. I mean, his only other powerful technique was that thing he was doing before along trashed him but that takes a decent bit of time to charge.
Volstandig is a great power but its not like it even held a candle to ichigo. I mean, ichigo kept kirge at bay with speed alone. How would kirge deal with the petals? Kirge was not actually avoiding tensa zangetsu, he was taking every hit head on so saying kirge is in any way comparable to ichigo in speed is plain wrong. In terms of power kirge is severely limited if he has to use his blutz vene to defend. Byakuya does not have to be faster than kirge either for that matter. Byakuya's usual fighting style would still involve sistematically surrounding kirge to a point where he can't avoid. Once he is caught he has the same problem he had against ichigo, the barrage of attacks would stop him from changing to blutz arterie and thus attack. At that point the fight goes on until kirge can't take anymore.
Well, I don't agree with you.
Kirge managed to push Ichigo in his Bankai and that's already a fit against Byakuya. I doubt Byakuya would even have a decent chance against current Shikai Ichigo, so I can't see how a fact that Kirge actually managed to be on par to some extent with Bankai Ichigo isn't a fit to his speed? Of course he lost when Ichigo got serious, but there aren't that many characters speedwize and powerwise in the current manga who can cope with Ichi in most of aspects. Even very tired Ichigo one-shotted one of the Sternenritters in SS, so Kirge was leagues stronger. Also Ichigo's speed was clearly shown to be so tremendous that most of the current Captains and Sternenritters were surprised and shocked on his speed performance, when he moved from killing Shatz to Byakuya's location. And they were also shocked from his Reiatsu and that was already damn tired Ichigo after fighting Kirge and escaping the Jail, so no way Byakuya would held a candle near Ichigo's speed in Bankai, while Kirge was quite capable to some extent.
Also Byakuya doesn't have anything against Jail. It's casted quite easily and is quite fast tech and it doesn't seem that Byakuya can get out of it, so he would automatically loose if he gets there.
And my point also was that even not that fast Ichigo and Tsukishima were able to get away from Byakuya's Bankai, so it would be easy for Kirge in Vollstandig to evade the pettails and then finish Byakuya with Holly Arrows. And those arrows are quite dangerous.
Also, sealing byakuya is perfectly possible but would it count as a win? Can kirge kill byakuya once he is inside the cage? I mean, byakuya would definitely not be able to get out but the scenario also has a strong implication that kirge would be unable to kill byakuya. Of course, there is also the possibility of byakuya's bankai actually being large enough to protect him from the cage.
Kirge should take it. the guy blitzed ichigo took a point blank gt to the neck, has heilog pfeils way stronger then uryu ishida who's are strong enough to pierce base yammy who's an espada. He can fire multiple of them casually. The guy is also able overpower shikai ichigo in cac as well. With ayon added to it . Bankai ichigo can barely get past his blut.
Byakuya is though but kirge's blut and physical powers should allow him to win.
If Kirge can't steal the Bankai, since he has no way of distracting Byakuya the way As Nodt did with his "Fear" element, I cannot see Byakuya losing this.
Kirge tanking Bankai GT isn't a telling story. Gin took a pretty similar hit and did only receive a very minor injury, which cannot be even considered a wound. GT isn't a one-hit KO technique by looking at the instances.
Kirge was struggling to keep up with Bankai Ichigo's speed, so, he couldn't switch to attack mode at all. To dodge Byakuya's Bankai, he needs the same sort of concentration, so, the best he could hope is to trick Byakuya in his cage to pick up a draw.
Byakuya can't hope to hurt Kirge.
Byakuya can't run away from him with speed.
Byakuya can't can't stop his strikes for he ain't strong enough.
Byakuya can't escape his fury.
Byakuya is indefinitely screwed.
A battle between these two going all out would be like a battle between Ulquiorra using his final hollow form of battle vs Grimmjow (the one Ichigo fought) with Kirge being the Ulquiorra & Grimmjow being Byakuya.
There is no reason for byakuya to be unable to hurt kirge though. The way blutz works makes sure of that. Surely kirge could block tensa zangetsu completely however at the same time he was completely screwed as he did not have a second to spare to change to the offensive blutz. While using the offensive blutz (which is in his words the one that can match the power of bankai) kirge will be as vulnerable to attack as just about any ordinary enemy which is a bit of an issue. That said, volstandig kirge never did simply blitz shikai ichigo otherwise shikai ichigo would have died. Base kirge in the end was fodder to shikai ichigo and volstandig kirge was utterly unable to match in any form bankai ichigo. BYakuya won't corner kirge with speed but he does not need to, his bankai would easily provide an alternate way of doing that. Byakuya has to simply surround kirge with his petals and then attack him continuously. Nothing kirge showed was enough for him to break away from the millions of blades. It won't outright kill kirge, his bluts can certainly protect him however at that point kirge has been checkmated much like he was against ichigo. Once the petals get to him he can't change from the defensive blutz or he risks taking in a decent bit of damage. Kirge was strong but he never showed he was that impressive. Even among the stern rittern I don't think he would have ranked all that high in the ladder (although he certainly would not have been too low).
"Opie: I don't see... / ...any reason why I should answer that question... // (He's a difficult one............! // His strength alone is fairly daunting... / ...but the real problem is that speed!! // I can't keep up with his attacks without keeping my Blut Vene continuously at full blast! // But while I'm focusing all my energy on Blut Vene, I'm unable to use Blue Arterie!! // And without Blut Arterie, my attacks... / ...can barely scratch that Bankai form of his!! // Should I call for backup? / But no... If I were to do that...)"
(And without Blut Arterie)
(My attacks will have no effect on him with his Bankai engaged!!)"
Another thing is, Kirge was forced to keep his blut vene at full power (100%) AGAINST THE DEMON FLASH ICHIGO's combat power & speed. Ichigo's COMBAT POWER & SPEED!! Can Byakuya hope to match a fraction of Ichigo's combat power & speed? CERTAINLY NOT! NOT A CHANCE!!
2) you said base Kirge is fodder to Ichigo. Yes he is BUT so is Byakuya.
3) Byakuya cannot simply surround Kirge with his petals. In fact Byakuya must make sure he tries his damnest to not get close to Kirge for he would then became vulnerable to instantly "live" by the destructive holy form, aka vollstandig as Byakuya's abilities including himself is composes of spirit particles (that shit is more haxxed than Barragan's respira lol).
.Byakuya cannot hurt Kirge http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-12.html for he doesn't have the power.
.He cannot outspeed him rather Kirge is likely to speedblitz him & kill him in secs.
.He cannot use his zanpakuto ability nor use kido against Kirge for they will "live".
.He cannot use himself (close combat) against Kirge for HE will "live".
.He doesn't have anywhere near a fraction of Ichigo's combat speed & power thus Kirge wouldn't feel pressured.
.Kirge in base form can alway use the base quincy techs for they are haxxed & extremely powerful (I literally mean haxxed & powerful).
Basically, Byakuya may not even stand a chance against Kirge in base form talkless of the outrageously strong vollstandig.
For Kirge has quincy techs suchs as:
Heilig Pfeil (holy arrow) http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...04-page-6.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...04-page-7.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...04-page-8.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...2-page-11.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...04-page-9.html
Sankt Zwinger (quincy's holy hymn) though it's more defensive than offensive http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...2-page-15.html
Blut (blood) http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-17.html
Last edited by Kay3795; January 27, 2013 at 05:19 PM.
Byakuya does not have to match combat speed although there is no particular reason for him to be unable to match ichigo's power with his own bankai. His standard bankai petals are overall pretty fast and more importantly the sheer amount of petals he has is overwhelming. In that regard byakuya can easily make up for the difference in speed in regards to ichigo with the sheer number of petals. How does kirge in the end avoid the sheer number of petals? Its impossible unless he somehow figures out exactly how to fight byakuya's bankai.
Why would byakuya be fodder to ichigo? Stronger? Definitely but by no means fodder.
If slakverie was really that dangerous then even ichigo would not have been able to approach kirge and yet what we saw was that he was indeed able to get close. Byakuya does not even have to figure out the thing on kirges head is what controls the technique, a single hit from his bankai would hit all of kirge and by extention the disk.
As far as we have seen barely anyone has the sheer power to get past blutz. Still, that is not how you defeat a quincy, you defeat him by nailing him while using blutz arterie. There is also the consideration that what hit kirge there was a shikai, byakuya's bankai and sheer volume of petals would obviously be stronger. Byakuya does not even actually have to get past blutz vene for that matter. Once kirge has to use his vene to defend from the petals he ends up in a situation similar to the one against ichigo. Once he is forced to stay in vene mode it is simply a matter of time, that is checkmate. Either he runs out of power to defend from bankai or uses blutz arterie and actually takes on the full might of bankai.
There is nothing outrageously strong about kirge's holy arrows. Why would there be anything like that about them? Ichigo caught them with his bare hards, that alone shows base kirge is overall not a big deal. Even volstandig kirge did not outright kill shikai ichigo which goes to show volstandig kirge was not that big deal either. If kirge had been worth a damn at any point then he would have been able to do anything other than being fodderized against bankai ichigo.
And there is still the point that the kirge in this battle won't even have the decency of being as strong as the one who fought ichigo. The kirge we saw ichigo fighting had absorbed allon which gave him an actual power boost. Kirge is this thread does not have that. So... how does he deal with the sheer volume of petals byakuya has? If ichigo's bare hands could handle kirges base arrows then obviously they wouldn't do a thing to byakuya in whatever form, let alone his bankai. There is no reason for volstandig holy arrows to be able to get past senbonsakura either for that matter. In a range battle byakuya does not have to actually catch up to kirge with his bankai at all, he just has to systematically surround him with petals. At that point kirge has to defend with blutz vene. Once the battle gets to that point he either maintains vene and keeps taking hits or changes to arterie and still takes hits.
In short, the indisputable victor of this fight is Quilgue Opie UNLESS he's forbidden to use Vollstandig, but the original posts says nothing about it.